POL The reason top tech companies often hire foreign-born & first-generation engineers over “native” Americans - Vivek Ramaswamy

ShadowMan

Designated Grumpy Old Fart
Vivek is right. Our school systems have turned into SHITTE!! Like it or not Participation Awards, DEI bullshitte, and everyone is a winner or it's not fair, is utter crap! When a huge majority of college students need a year of remedial classes to get up to REAL COLLEGE LEVEL ACADEMICS there's something seriously WRONG. When we have kids graduating from high school that can't read or do basic math we've got something seriously WRONG!! When we have kids graduating from high school WITH NO JOB SKILLS what-so-ever, we've got something seriously wrong.

WHEN WE HAVE CONGRESSIONAL REPRESENTATIVES with the knowledge base and IQ's ten points below a ROCK!! We have MAJOR problems in our educational system....and government. When the SPEAKER of the HOUSE says that we have to pass a bill in order to know what's in it!! WE ARE FRIGGEN DOOMED!!

What is it going to take to wake people of this country up?
 

helen

Panic Sex Lady
Vivek is right. Our school systems have turned into SHITTE!! Like it or not Participation Awards, DEI bullshitte, and everyone is a winner or it's not fair, is utter crap! When a huge majority of college students need a year of remedial classes to get up to REAL COLLEGE LEVEL ACADEMICS there's something seriously WRONG. When we have kids graduating from high school that can't read or do basic math we've got something seriously WRONG!! When we have kids graduating from high school WITH NO JOB SKILLS what-so-ever, we've got something seriously wrong.

WHEN WE HAVE CONGRESSIONAL REPRESENTATIVES with the knowledge base and IQ's ten points below a ROCK!! We have MAJOR problems in our educational system....and government. When the SPEAKER of the HOUSE says that we have to pass a bill in order to know what's in it!! WE ARE FRIGGEN DOOMED!!

What is it going to take to wake people of this country up?
You are wrong.

What happened is the government started loaning money to every high school graduate to go to college. Colleges pushed hard to get all the kids signed up. At no time in history, in no country on earth, have all the kids entering adulthood been college material.

College recruitment is all about government grants and loans. Tuition was raised to match the largesse, and it became very hard to just work through college instead.

Remedial college classes are for people who should never have applied for college in the first place. This is 100% government interference.

Public schools are not at fault. The basic curriculum is still there. We have 20 years of Bush-era bullshit "leave no child behind" testing requirements that need to end. We have to strip the DEI bullshit out of the classroom and maybe not drug 90% of the kids.

That said, trying to change things only lands you on an alphabet list.
 

ShyGirl

Veteran Member
Any engineer that was working in the 80's and 90's understands the scam of importing so called "talent" from LCC (Low Cost Countries). The H-1B visa gave the companies total control over the imported engineers and their salaries. Just have the Americans train their replacements and then kick the Americans out the door. The imports did not produce a better product but the company had total control over them because of the visa. Engineers working along with the imports were not even treated like highly trained professionals but more like blue collar workers except with no overtime pay for all the extra hours put in. It's no wonder American kids gave up on the stem professions.
 

robolast

Senior Member
Vivek couldn’t be more wrong. He is completely discounting that it was American exceptionalism that led to the greatest achievements of the last 150 years…that put men on the moon…

There is one reason why tech companies import tech talent - money.

I didn’t have a problem with Vivek until now. I thought he was a dynamic thinker and a great asset to the Trump team. His agenda is now clear. I will view everything he does going forward with skepticism.

He’s also a hypocrite. He was proudly posting videos of his son doing push-ups with Pete Hegseth at the Army/Navy game just a few weeks ago. Surely his son’s time would’ve been better spent with a math tutor..


I believe what he says about our country is true but it has no relation to why they are supposedly hiring first generation and foreign born engineers and first generation engineers over native Americans. I actually didn't know this was happening. What I saw in my 29 years in IT work was a shift to off-shore solutions for on-call and some problem solving but I didn't see it in the general hiring so much ( but I left the field in 2005). I have seen the values of our children go downward even a little in some of my own kids. I summarize it like this - the party happens after a considerable amount of successful work has been done

And Pete is the perfect solution for the Secretary of Defense (overly qualified). He is a dynamic thinker and not a hypocrite from what I've seen. I will watch and see how he does. From now on I will probably view your posts with skepticism.
 

Hognutz

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Vivek is right. Our school systems have turned into SHITTE!! Like it or not Participation Awards, DEI bullshitte, and everyone is a winner or it's not fair, is utter crap! When a huge majority of college students need a year of remedial classes to get up to REAL COLLEGE LEVEL ACADEMICS there's something seriously WRONG. When we have kids graduating from high school that can't read or do basic math we've got something seriously WRONG!! When we have kids graduating from high school WITH NO JOB SKILLS what-so-ever, we've got something seriously wrong.

WHEN WE HAVE CONGRESSIONAL REPRESENTATIVES with the knowledge base and IQ's ten points below a ROCK!! We have MAJOR problems in our educational system....and government. When the SPEAKER of the HOUSE says that we have to pass a bill in order to know what's in it!! WE ARE FRIGGEN DOOMED!!

What is it going to take to wake people of this country up?
View: https://twitter.com/fromkulak/status/1872361908231360552?s=61
 

Hognutz

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Sorry, I agree with Vivek. (And the silly straw argument about his kid "wasting" time with Pete Hegseth doing push-ups is just that...silly.)

"American exceptionalism" was based on our culture... going into the 1960s. Certainly, kids watched cartoons and played games...but parents kept things I'm balance. This was far easier then, as cartoons were only on Saturday mornings, and for an hour or so after school.

Kids also had routine chores and responsibilities.

Our kids played sports, won Homecoming King, had paying jobs (aside from working for us on the farm) by the age of 14, and they were hired ahead of non-Americans as well as American engineers. Two sons were told that they were hired over many other equally qualified people *because of their farm background*.

The average American kid is raised to value feelings over facts, and to take time off for minor injuries or illnesses...or even for "mental health" days (which translates into "I'm feeling lazy and self indulgent, and need an excuse to stay home")
It's absolutely crazy how many simply WON'T follow attendance rules, show up on time, or work during the hours they are fretting paid for.

I agree with Vivek.

Summerthyme
View: https://twitter.com/fromkulak/status/1872361908231360552?s=61
 

Housecarl

On TB every waking moment
You are wrong.

What happened is the government started loaning money to every high school graduate to go to college. Colleges pushed hard to get all the kids signed up. At no time in history, in no country on earth, have all the kids entering adulthood been college material.

College recruitment is all about government grants and loans. Tuition was raised to match the largesse, and it became very hard to just work through college instead.

Remedial college classes are for people who should never have applied for college in the first place. This is 100% government interference.

Public schools are not at fault. The basic curriculum is still there. We have 20 years of Bush-era bullshit "leave no child behind" testing requirements that need to end. We have to strip the DEI bullshit out of the classroom and maybe not drug 90% of the kids.

That said, trying to change things only lands you on an alphabet list.

You forgot the need to reintroduce a vocational track in high school to help get the annual graduates a jump start.
 

Kathy in FL

Administrator
_______________
I actually agree with most of what you said. And you’re right, I did use a silly straw man argument, I will own that. But the key is balance. Vivek is not advocating for balance. There are lots of well balanced American kids like yours and mine. It is absurd for Vivek to argue that they no longer exist. These high achievers don’t go into tech because of the pay disparity. Tech pays less than finance (for example) because the tech industry can import cheap labor.

The kids that are raised to value feelings over facts, etc… aren’t going for tech jobs or the high paying finance jobs. I agree with everything you said here.

The reason why I don’t trust Vivek on this is because at the end of the day he is advocating for importing more Indians, Bangladeshis and Pakistanis rather than making tech a more attractive industry for Americans.

You cannot afford the kind of “balance“ you are talking about in certain fields. If you want to be a genius and get ahead then you need to BE the genius and have the focus and put in the time. Of course that kind of person generally does nothing but revolve around their chosen field in nearly all things they do because that is what brings them pleasure.

There is a lot of competition out there and to get to the head of the pack you have to distinguish yourself. Some cultures have that more ingrained than others. Does that mean there is no hope for the US? Nope, but you need to get out of the public school mindset of being taught to be a cog in someone else’s wheel and then jealousies and hatred of anyone that excels and goes to the head of the competition.
 

Dash

Veteran Member
I believe what he says about our country is true but it has no relation to why they are supposedly hiring first generation and foreign born engineers and first generation engineers over native Americans. I actually didn't know this was happening. What I saw in my 29 years in IT work was a shift to off-shore solutions for on-call and some problem solving but I didn't see it in the general hiring so much ( but I left the field in 2005). I have seen the values of our children go downward even a little in some of my own kids. I summarize it like this - the party happens after a considerable amount of successful work has been done

And Pete is the perfect solution for the Secretary of Defense (overly qualified). He is a dynamic thinker and not a hypocrite from what I've seen. I will watch and see how he does. From now on I will probably view your posts with skepticism.
Why would you view my posts with skepticism? Because I shared an opinion about Ramaswamy you disagree with?

For the record, I wasn’t being critical of Hegseth at all. I think Hegseth is a strong choice for SecDef. My comment was a cheap knock on Vivek for bringing his son to a football game & being proud of his son acting like a jock, since he was critical of jocks in his post. I think more kids should be doing push-ups with Hegseth. There is more to life than science competitions. Kids should be well rounded.
 

Buick Electra

Member of the Early Bird Club
And this is why I never dug Vivek with his 'superiority complex' and why I am very gun-shy on Musk!


Six months ago, I was asked my opinion of the Silicon Valley alignment with MAGA. I said at the time I thought it would last around 18 months and finally climax with a large fracture in the political movement around 2026. I had no idea at the time, the group of technocrats would begin publicly advocating for replacing American workers before Trump took office.

For the past several days I have watched Vivek Ramaswamy, David Sacks, Elon Musk and his big tech influencers debating with their followers about the importance for them to continue expanding H-1b visas for foreign tech workers. It is stunning to see this crew double, triple and quadruple down on advocacy, while defining American workers as inadequate for their Silicon Valley needs.

Screenshot-2024-12-25-230155.png


Alas, it is what it is. Within the argument Musk, Ramaswamy, Sacks and group have presented multiple justifications for their foreign worker assistance programs, while advocating for expanded immigration support therein.

Within the tone of their argument, they essentially say the American worker is (1) not intellectual enough; (2) doesn’t have the right work ethic; and the latest point of justification is that (3) American culture is to blame for their need to import foreign workers.

As Vivek Ramaswamy recently said, “Our American culture has venerated mediocrity over excellence for way too long (at least since the 90s and likely longer). That doesn’t start in college, it starts YOUNG.” Thus, as the narrative is sold, American workers need to be replaced with more culturally appropriate Indian tech workers.

When the Indian-American starts saying Indian culture is more adequate at creating workers for the American tech industry, he loses me completely.

If the Indian culture is the holy grail breeding ground for software engineers, then why isn’t New Delhi replacing Silicon Valley?


Considering that factually the Indian culture is entirely based on a caste system, the argument is even more absurd.

What we need are training and recruitment centers for American students. However, the larger issue within the billionaire tech team advocacy is an issue of self-interest.

What we see in the justifications and arguments of the Ramaswamy, Musk and Sacks group is a very specific point of immigration policy for their subset within a singular sector of the American economy. Perhaps this would not be such a big issue, if these points of advocacy were coming from outside government interest groups. However, with this tech team going into the administration, the influence becomes something a little bigger.

The part the Tech Group do not understand is the core of the American DNA, “Liberty

It is only from the position of liberty, intellectualism actualized in freedom form, that the working culture of America, the ingenuity part, can be understood.

If you attempt to quantify Americanism with math and algorithms, the translated outcome always fails.

Dear Vivek Ramaswamy, my counter take…

Several years ago, Florida Power and Light won the prestigious international Edward Demming Award for excellence in multi-platform engineering, efficiency superiority and total quality in the process of energy management.

However, the scruffy rednecks did not blow every PhD intellectual out of the water with slide rules, CAD programs, articulated and quantified quality improvement processes and engineering acumen. They did it with hard hats and dirty fingernails.

Because they lost the award, the jaw-agape Japanese spent 6 months visiting and reviewing FPL and later published a 1,000-page study essentially saying FPL “wasn’t really good, they were just lucky.”

You see, the reviewers couldn’t actually quantify the reason why the Florida-based energy company was so successful. In response the FPL field leadership laughed, took out magic markers and wrote on the back of their hard hats: “WE’RE NOT GOOD, WE’RE RUCKY.”

A few years later, every single Kuwaiti oil field was blown up by Saddam Hussein. Global analysts and think-tanks proclaimed it would take 5 years to cap them all off and restart the Kuwait oil pumping industry. Well, the Kuwaiti’s and Saudi’s called Texans, who had them all capped and back in working order in 6 months.

We are a nation that knows how to get shit done.

A few more years pass, and the Northern Chile mine workers were trapped two miles underground. The eyes of the world began to tear as the word spread. Most began to whisper no one could save them. Who did they call for help? A bunch of hick miners from USA coal country who went down there, worked on the fly, engineered the rescue equipment on site, and saved every one of them.

Yup, that’s our America. Ingenuity born from freedom.

Across the pond a half-breed Islamic whack job, armed with an AK-47 and a goal to meet his virgins, began opening fire on a train in France. The scruffneck Americans on board didn’t run to the nearest safe room and hide themselves amid baguettes and brie. They said, “let’s go”, and beat the stuffing out of that little nut with a death wish.

Legion d’Honneur or not, that’s us. WE ARE AMERICANS! That’s just how we roll.

In fact, Lady Liberty can stroll along the Champs-Elysées with a swagger befitting Mae West because without her arrival, they’d be speaking German in the Louvre. Yet, for the better part of the past decade, a group of intellectual leftists have been teaching our children that it’s better to be sitting around a campfire eating sustainable algae cakes and picking parasites off each other; because ‘save the planet’, or something similarly minded. It would appear, they hate the outcomes and inequities from freedom.

Warmest regards,

Americans First!

View: https://twitter.com/TheLastRefuge2/status/1872353425398354037





tech1.JPG


tech2.JPG


tech3.JPG


tech4.JPG


tech5.JPG


tech6.JPG


tech7.JPG


tech8.JPG




 

summerthyme

Administrator
_______________
Why would you view my posts with skepticism? Because I shared an opinion about Ramaswamy you disagree with?
I suspect he's making the point I thought when I read your first post... that if it's fair to judge and reject Vivek's entire value and worldview because of one statement you read,, then we should also suspect you due to your post.

(Note, I don't believe that, but knee-jerk reactions are rarely correct.)

I'll clarify my own beliefs: I don't believe we need to import ANY labor. Many American kids are capable, if pushed by parents and encouraged by the community. And I hear from my kids in industry that Indian engineers are better than Chinese engineers, but *none* of them seem to be able to innovate. Youngest son said they got more "unmakeable" designs from Indian engineers than anyone else (when he was a programmer/machinist)

But honestly, it's not just STEM where we are failing! I'll have to post in the Shelter, but DS's new job (setting up an entire maintenance department at a huge company warehouse) has been eye opening! The work ethic in general is awful. I'm honestly not sure what the answer is.

Summerthyme
 

homecanner1

Veteran Member
I liked the comment about households raising kids to focus on facts vs households raising kids to focus on feelings. We were geeks into Nova, National Geographic, Jacques Cousteau, Star Trek and Carl Sagan. Gravitated toward Engineering, Science and Math. The rest of the tribe were theater kids and did very well in the arts but nothing beats a grounded STEM education, even if its less lucrative.

There was sports too, Little League and Soccer. And Music. Nothing wrong with a kid sleepover, just take them to the campus planetarium, telescopes, battlefield museums. Not a mall to see Barbie movie. Indians and Asian Orientals are not called Tiger Moms for nothing! Classical music instruction is a must. Demand excellence, if the school is not teaching cursive then Grandma MUST. Take charge
 

helen

Panic Sex Lady
Well, wouldn't you know it...new rules making it even harder to rescind H-1b visas.


USCIS Finalizes New Rules for H-1B, H-2 Programs

But overall, the regulation “will provide much needed regulatory consistency and certainty in a potentially unstable landscape going forward,” Wilson said.

It is evident that the Biden administration has accelerated its timeline to finalize the H-1B rule before the new Trump administration comes into office on Jan. 20.

“It is important that the rule will become effective Jan. 17, 2025, because it makes it a much more arduous task to try and rescind it,” Wilson said. “If this rule was not finalized in time, a new administration could easily halt implementation and more easily draft more restrictive regulations.”


It is not yet clear whether the Trump administration will seek to make changes to or withdraw the regulation. The incoming 119th Congress could also invoke the Congressional Review Act to repeal the rule.
 

helen

Panic Sex Lady
I suspect he's making the point I thought when I read your first post... that if it's fair to judge and reject Vivek's entire value and worldview because of one statement you read,, then we should also suspect you due to your post.

(Note, I don't believe that, but knee-jerk reactions are rarely correct.)

I'll clarify my own beliefs: I don't believe we need to import ANY labor. Many American kids are capable, if pushed by parents and encouraged by the community. And I hear from my kids in industry that Indian engineers are better than Chinese engineers, but *none* of them seem to be able to innovate. Youngest son said they got more "unmakeable" designs from Indian engineers than anyone else (when he was a programmer/machinist)

But honestly, it's not just STEM where we are failing! I'll have to post in the Shelter, but DS's new job (setting up an entire maintenance department at a huge company warehouse) has been eye opening! The work ethic in general is awful. I'm honestly not sure what the answer is.

Summerthyme
We are NOT failing in STEM. Propaganda.
 

ShyGirl

Veteran Member
The problem now is that companies have already screwed the pooch when it comes to American tech professionals. You can't just kick out the imports and replace them now with Americans because people saw how the profession was treated and gave up on it. Sad situation. STEM is a very demanding career path and you can't just instantly fix all of the damage that was done by companies with no foresight of the consequences they created. We are now at the mercy of the countries and people that we treated badly. I really feel like growing up in America gives you a special kind of innovative nature and unfortunately companies have squandered that nature when it comes to the STEM professions.
 

Dash

Veteran Member
I suspect he's making the point I thought when I read your first post... that if it's fair to judge and reject Vivek's entire value and worldview because of one statement you read,, then we should also suspect you due to your post.
That makes sense and it’s fair based on the way I worded that post. My comments were a bit of a knee jerk reaction to Ramaswamy’s X. Being honest, I’ve always been a little skeptical of Ramaswamy because he is a smooth talker who seems to have burst onto the scene very suddenly. His X made me further question his motivations.
 
Last edited:
Top