ALERT RUSSIA INVADES UKRAINE - Consolidated Thread

raven

raven

TB Fanatic
TheSearcher said:
Russia is stealing four states, as it stole Crimea. They are now going to be considered part of Russia, by Russia. Understandably, the Ukraine is going to disagree. And they are going to resist violently the attempt by Russia to expand its territory by fiat. There is no other sequence of events that makes logical sense, unless I am missing something. Putin knows this, so it must be intentional.

Finland and Sweden remain sovereign counties within an alliance, with a pledge of defense if attacked, as long as they agree to participate in the defense of other alliance states. That's pretty much it. If the the member states of the alliance do not hold up their end of the bargain, they are subject to expulsion from the alliance. They remain sovereign throughout those conditions, they are not forced to merge with another country,, or anything like that.

Please look at this stuff logically. Remove Zelinsky's assholish nature out of it, and look at things as they are, not how the propaganda is trying to steer us.
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Your logic is based on the concept of sovereignty. So lets examine that.

When Obama launched 200 cruise missiles into Libya because Gaddafi was oppressive during Arab Spring, that was not a violation of sovereignty because . . . we said so.
And when it was discovered that this was actually done in order to establish a covert base in Benghazi in order to smuggle arms into Syria that was not a violation of sovereignty because . . . we said so.
And when those arms were smuggled into Syria in order to arm ISIS in the overthrow of the Syrian government that was not a violation of sovereignty because . . . we said so.
And when we invented a story about yellow cake in order to invade Iraq and murder Hussain that was not a violation of sovereignty because . . . we said so.
And when we invade Afghanistan in order to punish Saudi Arabian terrorists for blowing up the World Trade Center that was not a violation of sovereignty because . . . we said so.
And when we promulgated the Maiden Revolution and overthrew the democratically elected, Russian puppets and replaced them with out puppets and supplied training and material support for an eight year civil war against the Russian speaking people of the sovereign states of Lugansk, Donetsk, Kherson, and Zaporizhzhia that was not a violation of sovereignty because . . . we said so.

In order for sovereignty to be a valid justification it must be valid for everyone or it is not valid for anyone.

Sovereignty and freedom are great concepts as long as you have the military strength to enforce it.
 
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J

JoanD777

Senior Member
TheSearcher said:
Russia is stealing four states, as it stole Crimea. They are now going to be considered part of Russia, by Russia. Understandably, the Ukraine is going to disagree. And they are going to resist violently the attempt by Russia to expand its territory by fiat. There is no other sequence of events that makes logical sense, unless I am missing something. Putin knows this, so it must be intentional.

Finland and Sweden remain sovereign counties within an alliance, with a pledge of defense if attacked, as long as they agree to participate in the defense of other alliance states. That's pretty much it. If the the member states of the alliance do not hold up their end of the bargain, they are subject to expulsion from the alliance. They remain sovereign throughout those conditions, they are not forced to merge with another country,, or anything like that.

Please look at this stuff logically. Remove Zelinsky's assholish nature out of it, and look at things as they are, not how the propaganda is trying to steer us.
Click to expand...
Those 4 states, not to mention Crimea, are enclaves of Russian descent (sp?) people. They speak Russian and are closer to Russia in their opinions. They were all being attacked by the Ukrainian government and military. This whole war came about because the Ukrainians were actively shelling those areas and had been attacking them for 7-8 years. A treaty was made through the efforts of other countries to end this fighting several years ago (the Minsk Agreement) which the Ukranian government refused to honor. All Putin asked in the beginning before the invasion was for Ukraine to back off, honor the Agreement, and that Ukraine agree not to seek NATO membership.
 
raven

raven

TB Fanatic
What about Taiwan?

According to the strict rule of sovereignty, Taiwan belongs to China. The UN has never recognized Taiwan.
But China had a revolution, Just like Ukraine, and we decided sovereignty does not apply because FREEeee-DOM and democracy and all that. Oh yea, because we said so.

And what about Yugoslavia? They had a revolution and now there are a whole handful of sovereign states because FREEeee-Dom and democracy and all that. Oh yea, because we said so.

Well, Ukraine has been in a revolution for seven years and not everyone wants to be Ukrainian anymore . . . but that's not cricket . . . because we said so.

Give Taiwan back to China and then we can stand on principal and demand Russia give back territory.
 
CaryC

CaryC

Has No Life - Lives on TB
JoanD777 said:
Those 4 states, not to mention Crimea, are enclaves of Russian descent (sp?) people. They speak Russian and are closer to Russia in their opinions. They were all being attacked by the Ukrainian government and military. This whole war came about because the Ukrainians were actively shelling those areas and had been attacking them for 7-8 years. A treaty was made through the efforts of other countries to end this fighting several years ago (the Minsk Agreement) which the Ukranian government refused to honor. All Putin asked in the beginning before the invasion was for Ukraine to back off, honor the Agreement, and that Ukraine agree not to seek NATO membership.
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Here is an excerpt from an article in the Times, the link to "earlier in the week" is a paid subscription so not able to access.

From back in Feb.

Unlike his speech earlier in the week, Mr. Putin spent relatively little time rehashing false stories of Ukrainian atrocities against the country’s Russian-speaking minority. Those claims had served as justification for his decision to recognize Russian-backed separatist forces, which have held parts of eastern Ukraine since 2014, as independent states that he was intervening to protect.

The rest of the article is about eastward expansion of NATO.


One might say mission accomplished.
 
Grumphau

Grumphau

Veteran Member
raven said:
What about Taiwan?

According to the strict rule of sovereignty, Taiwan belongs to China. The UN has never recognized Taiwan.
But China had a revolution, Just like Ukraine, and we decided sovereignty does not apply because FREEeee-DOM and democracy and all that. Oh yea, because we said so.

And what about Yugoslavia? They had a revolution and now there are a whole handful of sovereign states because FREEeee-Dom and democracy and all that. Oh yea, because we said so.

Well, Ukraine has been in a revolution for seven years and not everyone wants to be Ukrainian anymore . . . but that's not cricket . . . because we said so.

Give Taiwan back to China and then we can stand on principal and demand Russia give back territory.
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At least there is precedent for Taiwan. ROC has been a US ally since WW2, at least unofficially.
 
onetimer

onetimer

Veteran Member
TheSearcher

TheSearcher

Are you sure about that?
mecoastie said:
I researched it with the whole Turkey issue. There is no provision to kick a member out. There is a separate treaty or charter that can allow for the suspension of a member if the dont abide by the agreement but not a removal.
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Thank you. I stand educated.
 
TheSearcher

TheSearcher

Are you sure about that?
raven said:
Your logic is based on the concept of sovereignty. So lets examine that.

When Obama launched 200 cruise missiles into Libya because Gaddafi was oppressive during Arab Spring, that was not a violation of sovereignty because . . . we said so.
And when it was discovered that this was actually done in order to establish a covert base in Benghazi in order to smuggle arms into Syria that was not a violation of sovereignty because . . . we said so.
And when those arms were smuggled into Syria in order to arm ISIS in the overthrow of the Syrian government that was not a violation of sovereignty because . . . we said so.
And when we invented a story about yellow cake in order to invade Iraq and murder Hussain that was not a violation of sovereignty because . . . we said so.
And when we invade Afghanistan in order to punish Saudi Arabian terrorists for blowing up the World Trade Center that was not a violation of sovereignty because . . . we said so.
And when we promulgated the Maiden Revolution and overthrew the democratically elected, Russian puppets and replaced them with out puppets and supplied training and material support for an eight year civil war against the Russian speaking people of the sovereign states of Lugansk, Donetsk, Kherson, and Zaporizhzhia that was not a violation of sovereignty because . . . we said so.

In order for sovereignty to be a valid justification it must be valid for everyone or it is not valid for anyone.

Sovereignty and freedom are great concepts as long as you have the military strength to enforce it.
Click to expand...
Actually, it's always wrong to manufacture sovereignty that is false. What Putin is doing is not only manufacturing a false sovereignty, he's doing it knowing that false sovereignty will be violated. So it's an open, in-your-face trap.
 
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TheSearcher

TheSearcher

Are you sure about that?
JoanD777 said:
Those 4 states, not to mention Crimea, are enclaves of Russian descent (sp?) people. They speak Russian and are closer to Russia in their opinions. They were all being attacked by the Ukrainian government and military. This whole war came about because the Ukrainians were actively shelling those areas and had been attacking them for 7-8 years. A treaty was made through the efforts of other countries to end this fighting several years ago (the Minsk Agreement) which the Ukranian government refused to honor. All Putin asked in the beginning before the invasion was for Ukraine to back off, honor the Agreement, and that Ukraine agree not to seek NATO membership.
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Another one who is missing the forest for the trees. However any of us see the justification for what Putin has done to carve away those regions, he knows that by claiming sovereignty over them, he guarantees a military attempt by Ukraine to keep them Ukrainian.

This is a naked attempt by Russia to force a reaction that they will use to justify an escalated response.

Again, please folks, look past the gripes, look at the actions.
 
vector7

vector7

Dot Collector
Scrapman said:
Well I'm totally convinced this is it , the US is going past the point of no return.
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O

Oreally

Right from the start
JoanD777 said:
Those 4 states, not to mention Crimea, are enclaves of Russian descent (sp?) people. They speak Russian and are closer to Russia in their opinions. They were all being attacked by the Ukrainian government and military. This whole war came about because the Ukrainians were actively shelling those areas and had been attacking them for 7-8 years. A treaty was made through the efforts of other countries to end this fighting several years ago (the Minsk Agreement) which the Ukranian government refused to honor. All Putin asked in the beginning before the invasion was for Ukraine to back off, honor the Agreement, and that Ukraine agree not to seek NATO membership.
Click to expand...

the populations pre war was 50/50, with of the russian speakers in the cities, and the Ukrainian speakers in the countryside.

most of the city dwellers were brought there during Stalin's time as gulag or forced migrants.

as for russian speaking being determinant i have met some who have fled the invasion and won't be going back until the region is liberated.
 
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M

mecoastie

Veteran Member
JoanD777 said:
Those 4 states, not to mention Crimea, are enclaves of Russian descent (sp?) people. They speak Russian and are closer to Russia in their opinions. They were all being attacked by the Ukrainian government and military. This whole war came about because the Ukrainians were actively shelling those areas and had been attacking them for 7-8 years. A treaty was made through the efforts of other countries to end this fighting several years ago (the Minsk Agreement) which the Ukranian government refused to honor. All Putin asked in the beginning before the invasion was for Ukraine to back off, honor the Agreement, and that Ukraine agree not to seek NATO membership.
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If you go look at maps of both identified ethnicity and language you will find that only small areas of Luhansk and Donetsk are majority Russian. Most are majority Ukraine. The only oblast that identified as majority Russia was Crimea where Russia has had a huge presence for hundreds of years. Neither Russia nor Ukraine honored the Minsk Agreements. At best they paid brief lip service and then it was back to business as usual for both sides.
 
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wait-n-see

wait-n-see

Veteran Member
raven said:
What about Taiwan?

According to the strict rule of sovereignty, Taiwan belongs to China. The UN has never recognized Taiwan.
But China had a revolution, Just like Ukraine, and we decided sovereignty does not apply because FREEeee-DOM and democracy and all that. Oh yea, because we said so.

And what about Yugoslavia? They had a revolution and now there are a whole handful of sovereign states because FREEeee-Dom and democracy and all that. Oh yea, because we said so.

Well, Ukraine has been in a revolution for seven years and not everyone wants to be Ukrainian anymore . . . but that's not cricket . . . because we said so.

Give Taiwan back to China and then we can stand on principal and demand Russia give back territory.
Click to expand...

Actually, not only was the ROC recognized by the UN but it was a founding member of the UN.

TAIWAN’S TOUGH HISTORY WITH THE UNITED NATIONS

Just a snippet from the link to not derail.....
"Taiwan has had a long and dramatic relationship with the United Nations, from being — as the Republic of China (ROC) — one of the founding members of the UN in 1945 to losing its seat at the National Security Council to the People’s Republic of China (PRC) in 1971. The main issue with Taiwan’s membership in the UN is based on two seemingly insuperable concerns: a concept of membership expressed in the Charter of the United Nations, the foundational document on the organization, and the so-called “one China” policy officially accepted by the UN.

The Charter of the United Nations states that “the membership in the United Nations is open to all peace-loving States that accept the obligations contained in the United Nations Charter and, in the judgment of the Organization, are able to carry out these obligations.” The operative word is “States,” since membership as the ultimate form of participation is indissolubly related to sovereignty — de jure sovereignty, and not de facto, as is presently the case for Taiwan. De facto Taiwan is and has been a sovereign Western-style liberal democracy for decades. Yet it is cursed by the “one China” policy, which claims that “the Government of the People’s Republic of China is the sole legal government of China and Taiwan is its inalienable part.” Those who want to have diplomatic relations with the PRC must break ties with the ROC."
 
raven

raven

TB Fanatic
TheSearcher said:
Another one who is missing the forest for the trees. However any of us see the justification for what Putin has done to carve away those regions, he knows that by claiming sovereignty over them, he guarantees a military attempt by Ukraine to keep them Ukrainian.

This is a naked attempt by Russia to force a reaction that they will use to justify an escalated response.

Again, please folks, look past the gripes, look at the actions.
Click to expand...
You are missing the forest - you only see Ukraine
 
raven

raven

TB Fanatic
TheSearcher said:
Actually, it's always wrong to manufacture sovereignty that is false. What Putin is doing is not only manufacturing a false sovereignty, he's doing it knowing that false sovereignty will be violated. So it's an open, in-your-face trap.
Click to expand...
Ukraine has been in a civil war for seven years.
It is very common for countries to split up during a revolution and civil war.
Happens all the time.
 
TheSearcher

TheSearcher

Are you sure about that?
raven said:
Ukraine has been in a civil war for seven years.
It is very common for countries to split up during a revolution and civil war.
Happens all the time.
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Also it is very common for neighboring countries to take advantage of situations like this to increase their territory.
 
raven

raven

TB Fanatic
wait-n-see said:
Actually, not only was the ROC recognized by the UN but it was a founding member of the UN.

TAIWAN’S TOUGH HISTORY WITH THE UNITED NATIONS

Just a snippet from the link to not derail.....
"Taiwan has had a long and dramatic relationship with the United Nations, from being — as the Republic of China (ROC) — one of the founding members of the UN in 1945 to losing its seat at the National Security Council to the People’s Republic of China (PRC) in 1971. The main issue with Taiwan’s membership in the UN is based on two seemingly insuperable concerns: a concept of membership expressed in the Charter of the United Nations, the foundational document on the organization, and the so-called “one China” policy officially accepted by the UN.

The Charter of the United Nations states that “the membership in the United Nations is open to all peace-loving States that accept the obligations contained in the United Nations Charter and, in the judgment of the Organization, are able to carry out these obligations.” The operative word is “States,” since membership as the ultimate form of participation is indissolubly related to sovereignty — de jure sovereignty, and not de facto, as is presently the case for Taiwan. De facto Taiwan is and has been a sovereign Western-style liberal democracy for decades. Yet it is cursed by the “one China” policy, which claims that “the Government of the People’s Republic of China is the sole legal government of China and Taiwan is its inalienable part.” Those who want to have diplomatic relations with the PRC must break ties with the ROC."
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ok. then the PRC should give China back to Taiwan?
 
SouthernBreeze

SouthernBreeze

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Isn't there supposed to be a huge ceremony in Moscow, today, for bringing these 4 sheep back into Mother Russia? Is anyone here paying attention to what Putin might say?
 
vector7

vector7

Dot Collector
Trump leaves after 4 moves and we're in some sustainable territory.

gv010322dAPR_s2048x1462.jpg


Biden in 2 moves loses Afghanistan and parts of Ukraine, where will we be in another 2-6 moves?
 
raven

raven

TB Fanatic
TheSearcher said:
No. Lying about my plain statements should be beneath you.
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you do the same all the time so you should not be surprised.

tell you what, how about a negotiated settlement.
How about I put you on ignore and you put me on ignore
and we'll call it even
 
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