ALERT RUSSIA INVADES UKRAINE - Consolidated Thread

Melodi

Disaster Cat
My understanding, which is not that great, is that the only two really serious militaries in most of Europe are believe it or not The French and Great Britain which are no longer part of the EU. There are a few other countries that are OK, like Sweden, but Germany (I have heard) is really not ready for Prime Time and has no business pushing this one.

I gather Poland has been improving but again, someone with more understanding of military matters may want to comment.
 

von Koehler

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Russia lost 20 million+ soldiers and civilians in WWII. Russia was perfectly willing to starve 5-10 million Ukrainians during the 30's to ensure food supplies to Russia. Stalin was perfectly willing to kill thousands of "non-loyal", non-Russians in it's officer corps leading up to WWII severely impacting it's military readiness. 10,000 or so Polish officers were massacred after Stalin and Hitler agreed to partition Poland.

Pre, trans, and post Communism, Russia is all about Russia.

Russian "red lines" are serious business. Thinking otherwise is patently dangerous.

The Russian casuistry rate was about 13 to 1 but Stalin didn't care about the losses.
 

mecoastie

Veteran Member
Does anyone truly believe that if the West concedes to Putins demands he will stop there? He wants a war. He invaded the Ukraine in 2014 and wants to finish the job. There are Russian troops in the Donbass with all the modern weapons that Putin cries that the West shouldnt provide the Ukraine. He violates the Minsk agreement more than the Ukes. His dream is a mighty rebuilt Soviet Union where he is Czar. He has his hand in almost every energy and defense industry in Russia and has made a couple hundred billion in kickbacks and "fees". He doesnt care about the Russian people unless it puts money in his pocket or enhances his prestige and power.
 

Housecarl

On TB every waking moment
Hummm......

Posted for fair use.....

Joe Biden and NATO Ally Don't Want Their Own Troops Reining in Russia on Ukraine

BY DARRAGH ROCHE ON 12/18/21 AT 10:53 AM EST

President Joe Biden and a key U.S. ally have both rejected the idea of using their respective country's troops to rein in Russia, as tens of thousands of President Vladimir Putin's troops amass at the country's border with Ukraine.

British Defense Secretary Ben Wallace appeared to rule out deploying troops to Ukraine in order to defend the country if Russia invades in remarks toThe Spectator magazine.

He said that it was "highly unlikely" NATO troops would be sent to Ukraine in the event of invasion, which U.S. intelligence suggest could potentially take place next month.

President Joe Biden has said on December 8 that his administration has not been considering a unilateral deployment of U.S. troops to the region, but he seemed to leave open the possibility of action by NATO countries.

The U.K. is a NATO member and a key, long-term U.S. ally, making its government's position on troops potentially crucial.

In comments published by The Times ahead of The Spectator report, Wallace said that Ukraine "is not a member of NATO so it is highly unlikely that anyone is going to send troops into Ukraine to challenge Russia."

Members of NATO are obliged by treaty to come each others' defense if they are attacked, but Ukraine is not a party to NATO.

"We shouldn't kid people we would. The Ukrainians are aware of that," Wallace said. "

Asked if Ukraine was on its own, he replied: "We can all help with capacity building but to some extent Ukraine is not in NATO and that is why we are doing the best diplomatically to say to Putin don't do this."

READ MORE
Speaking to reporters at the White House on December 8, President Biden said: "We have a moral obligation and a legal obligation to our NATO Allies, if they were to attack under Article Five. It's a sacred obligation," Biden said, explaining the U.S. did not have that obligation to Ukraine.

"But it would depend upon what the rest of the NATO countries are willing to do as well," the president said. "But the idea the United States is going to unilaterally use force to confront Russia from invading Ukraine is not on...in the cards right now."
Ukrainian Servicemen Walk Through a Trench

Ukrainian servicemen walk in a trench on their position on the front line with Russia-backed separatists near the small town of Svitlodarsk, in Donetsk region, on December 18, 2021. Russian troops are continuing to amass along the Ukrainian border.ANATOLII STEPANOV/AFP/GETTY IMAGES

Biden warned of "severe consequences" if Russia invades Ukraine and the administration has been working to find a diplomatic solution while also reportedly working on potential economic sanctions. The president addressed the issue with Putin directly in a virtual meeting last week.

While Russian officials have repeatedly dismissed the idea that the country is poised to invade, some 70,000 Russian troops are now amassed at the Ukrainian border, according to U.S. intelligence.

This reportedly includes 50 Battalion Tactical Groups (BTGs) that combine a number of functions, including artillery, anti-tank weapons and reconnaissance. Six more BTGs are believed to be en route
U.S. intelligence previously estimated that Russia could have as many 175,000 troops on the border ahead of a potential invasion in January.

6 Comments
 

Housecarl

On TB every waking moment
My understanding, which is not that great, is that the only two really serious militaries in most of Europe are believe it or not The French and Great Britain which are no longer part of the EU. There are a few other countries that are OK, like Sweden, but Germany (I have heard) is really not ready for Prime Time and has no business pushing this one.

I gather Poland has been improving but again, someone with more understanding of military matters may want to comment.

Yeah, it looks like Berlin is pushing this hoping that the NATO umbrella will cover their bets.

That the goals of the new ruling coalition in Berlin are to strengthen the EU, effectively under their leadership, shouldn't be missed within this brewing mess.
 
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Red Baron

Paleo-Conservative
_______________
Does anyone truly believe that if the West concedes to Putins demands he will stop there? He wants a war. He invaded the Ukraine in 2014 and wants to finish the job. There are Russian troops in the Donbass with all the modern weapons that Putin cries that the West shouldnt provide the Ukraine. He violates the Minsk agreement more than the Ukes. His dream is a mighty rebuilt Soviet Union where he is Czar. He has his hand in almost every energy and defense industry in Russia and has made a couple hundred billion in kickbacks and "fees". He doesnt care about the Russian people unless it puts money in his pocket or enhances his prestige and power.

I wouldn't argue any of that. Then and now.

The "invasion" of Ukraine already happened years ago in the Donbass.

The time to confront Russia was during the "annexation" (cough cough) of Crimea.

NATO didn't do anything about Donbass or the Crimea then.

Why is it such a burning issue now?
 

mecoastie

Veteran Member
I wouldn't argue any of that. Then and now.

The "invasion" of Ukraine already happened years ago in the Donbass.

The time to confront Russia was during the "annexation" (cough cough) of Crimea.

NATO didn't do anything about Donbass or the Crimea then.

Why is it such a burning issue now?
My guess is that at that time the eu and nato were willing to let it go thinking appeasement. Now they realize that he won’t stop until he controls all the former Soviet Union.
 

Doomer Doug

TB Fanatic
I am seeing reports that NATO and the USA are forward deploying 1,000 tanks to the Ukraine. Further, they landed at Greece, and are now transiting Bulgaria headed into the Ukraine. If they enter the Ukraine, Putin will launch. We shall see how this plays out. I saw the video of the tanks being moved on trailer trucks down the highway.

Christmas War? New Year's eve? Sheesh, NATO actually thinks they are a functional combat force. :prfl: NATO wasn't squat back in 1974 when I was in Germany, and they are even WORSE now.
 

mecoastie

Veteran Member
I am seeing reports that NATO and the USA are forward deploying 1,000 tanks to the Ukraine. Further, they landed at Greece, and are now transiting Bulgaria headed into the Ukraine. If they enter the Ukraine, Putin will launch. We shall see how this plays out. I saw the video of the tanks being moved on trailer trucks down the highway.

Christmas War? New Year's eve? Sheesh, NATO actually thinks they are a functional combat force. :prfl: NATO wasn't squat back in 1974 when I was in Germany, and they are even WORSE now.

Do you have a link to these reports? All I am finding is an Air Cav Brigade that landed half in The Netherlands and half in Greece. Nothing about any tanks. It is part of a standard 9 month rotation and they are replacing a unit already there.

Here is an article I found:


On Thursday 25 November 2021, the commercial ro-ro vessel ARC Endurance arrived at the port of Vlissingen (Netherlands) with on board about half of the Combat Aviation Brigade, 1st Cavalry Division from Fort Hood, Killeeen AAF (TX).

Two days later the other half of the brigade arrived in the port of Alexandroupoli (Greece) on board the ARC Independence.

This will be the start of the unit's nine month deployment in support of Atlantic Resolve, funded under the European Deterrence Initiative.

In the port of Oost-Vlissingen a temporary military zone was set up at a rented commercial location to support the port operations.

The Dutch armed forces will supply Host Nation Support to the US Army Brigade with about 75 military personal, which means providing security and (aviation) support, like refuelling, fire fighters, air traffic control, helicopter parking space at airfields, etc.

After unloading all helicopters were sheltered in a warehouse. Independent from the weather conditions every helicopter will be reconfigured into flying status. A test run will be made in port.

The Combat Aviation Brigade unit shipped 39 helicopters to Vlissingen:

8x UH-60L Co A/2-227th General Support Aviation Battalion (GSAB)
12x CH-47F Co B/2-227th General Support Aviation Battalion (GSAB)
9x HH-60M Co C/2-227th General Support Aviation Battalion (GSAB)
1x UH-60M 3-227th Assault Helicopter Battalion (AHB)
9x AH-64E 7-17th Cavalry Regiment (ARS)

From the port the helicopters will relocate and unite at Woensdrecht air base (Netherlands), before moving on to Illesheim (Germany). Illesheim 'Storck Barracks' will be the headquarters for the Combat Aviation Brigade. Some helicopters will directly go into already planned phase maintenance at Illesheim. Other will in time redeploy further into Europe.

Towards the spring some will relocate to Powidz (Poland) and Lielvārde (Latvia). The other half of the CAB (about 25x UH-60M, 3x HH-60M and 15x AH-64E) will deploy form Greece to Forward Operation Bases (FOB) at Mihail Kogălniceanu (Romania) and Stefanovikion (Greece). The CAB will participate in European exercises like Allied Spirit and Combined Resolve but can move anywhere when the political situation asks for it.

Simultaneous the 1st Combat Aviation Brigade (CAB) 'Demon Brigade', 1st Infantry Brigade from Fort Riley (KS) is winding up their nine months rotation to Europe. About 58 helicopters deployed to Poland and Germany will relocate to Gilze-Rijen air base (Netherlands) before moving on to the port of Oost–Vlissingen to be loaded onto the ARC Endurance.
 

Doomer Doug

TB Fanatic

I don't like to post this stuff on the main thread, but the video of the tanks moving takes it to the next level. the link has the video on it.

VIDEO: NATO (U.S.) Tanks Cross from Greece into Bulgaria heading north toward Ukraine

The Hal Turner Radio Show has received video of American M1A1 and M1A2 Abrams tanks, moving in a large Convoy of flatbed trailers, from Greece into Bulgaria, heading toward Ukraine. Russia has said it will take action if NATO war gear enters Ukraine.
The video, below, arrived about 2:00 PM eastern US time Saturday, and had been taken less than an hour earlier. The video was taken on Highway "A3" in Kulata, Bulgaria, just into the country from Greece. The tanks on trucks are heading north on Highway A3:



The scalable map below shows the location in Bulgaria where the video was taken:


In order to position those tanks for operation in Ukraine, they will have to continue through Bulgaria, head north into Romania, and then either eastward toward Moldova, or due north to the Ukraine Border.
If those tanks cross into physical Ukraine, Russia has made it explicitly clear they will take military action.
It is about 364 km from where the tanks are in this video, to the nearest border crossing into Romania, at Vidin.

If, however, the tanks are routed farther east in Bulgaria to enter Romania, then it is about 624 KM from where they are in this video to Ruse and into Romania.

There are four (4) NATO bases in Romania. The one at Constanta would be physically closest to Ukraine and also would be positioned in the far southwest of Ukraine near the Russian-favorable enclave of Odessa, Ukraine. Odessa might be expected to side with any invading Russian forces, and so a NATO penetration into Odessa would give the breakaway forces there a battle from behind; they wouldn't be able to support Russian forces coming in from the East and the north.
It is now only a matter of hours as to everyone being able to see where these NATO (US) tanks are heading.
The build-up for war with Russia continues unabated by NATO.
It is important to remember, Ukraine is NOT a member of NATO; yet NATO seems to be picking a fight with Russia on behalf of non-member Ukraine.
It is also important to remember that if NATO engages Russia in battle, then ALL nations who are members of NATO make themselves legitimate targets for attack by Russia. This includes Greece, which allowed its ports to be used to bring in US tanks, now Bulgaria, which allowed those tanks to transit its territory, and, of course Romania which, just days ago, allowed NATO (US) F-15 fighter jets to land in that country.
Video of the newly arrived U.S. fighter jets, appears below:



As tensions continue to escalate, Russia CLOSED the "northern sea route" along its coastline, citing NATO trouble. They also announced two Regiments of Intercontinental Ballistic Missiles (ICBM's) will be brought to "Combat Status" before the end of December, and they announced the deployment of RADAR and "radio engineering battalions into the Arctic. Those radio engineering battalions have set up Radar JAMMING gear to foil U.S. over-the-horizon radar, and reduce or bling such radar to incoming Russian ICBMs! (Story HERE)
War in Europe approaches. How many NATO nations end up getting hit, remains to be seen, but we here in the USA could very well be hit by Russian missiles over our involvement in the Ukraine affair. For some reason, our legacy media is completely silent about this.


 

night driver

ESFP adrift in INTJ sea
Doug,
Yer an old tank hand. You ALSO understand the whole
"Logistics is Job 1!"
"Logistics is Job 1!"
"Logistics is Job 1!"

Mantra. SERIOUSLY how many trains do you need to MOVE a WHOLE THOUSAND tanks??
ANd how much general trash has to come with them??


Come on, now. YOU really DO know better than that.

OR alternatively, YOU can teach ME to know better than In apparently do.
 

Doomer Doug

TB Fanatic
They have been positioning supplies in support of Ukraine and Russia war for YEARS now. Back in my day they had THOUSANDS of brand new tanks stored in underground bunkers complete with fuel, ammo, etc. They had people who sat around and every few days or so would start the tank up, run it a few minutes and then shut it down. so yeah, no big deal. And the roll on roll off ships can unload several hundred tanks each trip.

The video don't lie. Those were tanks on trailers, like we used to do, and they were in movement. They have also been flying in cargo planes for months.

It is just like for desert storm when they had everything they needed already over there.

Anyway, this will sort itself out. And logistics wise the first wave has everything it needs already. fuel tank is full. ammo racks are full, crew is ready, so boom. now the second refill requires the logistics you mentioned, not the first.

Every single one of those tanks on the flat beds can roll off, start shooting instantly and drive around for hours.

Nope, how much stuff do you think they put into Poland, Romania or the Baltic States already? enough to fight a war with russia no problem.
 

Doomer Doug

TB Fanatic
I would assume one flat car per tank and supplies, with a good round number being 100 per train with say 6 locomotives or so.

Ten full trains and 60 locomotives to carry all 1000 tanks. and that is NO BIG DEAL train wise. Besides, they didn't use trains for these tanks. They put them on roll on/off ships, and then drove them onto flatbed truck trailers, so that is 1000 TRUCKS. which is NOTHING.

Logistics ain't like World War Two or even Vietnam. You can fly stuff, truck it, or move it by ship or train and it really isn't that big of a deal. Our unit would take 100 plus vehicles, load them on flatcars, or drive them to Graf, and this was in 1974. Again, carrying 100 tanks on a train is no big deal, once you sort the loading order out.
 

Marie

Veteran Member
I've seen them on trains crossing the states here. But those were just shipments to bases a half dozen at most. Probably just off the assembly line. Never full trains of them. Sounds like if true we are closer.
 

Oreally

Right from the start
if this is real...

then they would be headed straight north for the Ukrainian border, to pass through the small city of Chernivtsi and onto the rail junction at Ternopol. then onto trains to the east.

bad.

i am putting out feelers to people with people in Chernivtsi to see if they are /will be seeing anything in the next few days.
 

homecanner1

Veteran Member
Comment from elsewhere re whether NATO tanks in Greece are moving thru Bulgaria

reply: "....all off-duty Union Pacific & BNSF railroad crews have all been called in to start loading tanks, etc from Ft. Bliss & other southern bases to Gulf & Atlantic ports for shipment to Europe. Cutting Russia off of the SWIFT System ASAP, and as discussed right now, "shut down financial markets for Christmas" It seems the USA is hell bent on starting WWIII. The USA has NO right to be in Ukraine and to have started all this shit to begin with. Well, when the USA gets handed their ass on a silver platter, they did it to themselves, and brought it on themselves….”

who ordered the salad spinner for Christmas?
 

Red Baron

Paleo-Conservative
_______________
Russia appears to be back to the good old bald faced Commie lies.
----------------
View: https://twitter.com/steven_pifer/status/1472257795596505089
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wiki,

The Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances refers to three identical political agreements signed at the OSCE conference in Budapest, Hungary on 5 December 1994 to provide security assurances by its signatories relating to the accession of Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons. The memorandum was originally signed by three nuclear powers: the Russian Federation, the United Kingdom, and the United States. China and France gave somewhat weaker individual assurances in separate documents.[1]

The memorandum included security assurances against threats or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine, Belarus and Kazakhstan.

As a result, between 1994 and 1996, Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine gave up their nuclear weapons. Until then, Ukraine had the world's third-largest nuclear weapons stockpile,[2][3] of which Ukraine had physical, but not operational, control. Russia alone controlled the codes needed to operate.[4][5] Their use was dependent on Russian-controlled electronic Permissive Action Links and the Russian command and control system.[4][5]

Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances - Wikipedia
 
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Red Baron

Paleo-Conservative
_______________
So Hal Turner can make a 24 second video shot in the dark that shows a dozen flat beds carrying military equipment into a thousand US tanks going to Ukraine? You cant even identify the tanks.

wiki,

Harold Charles' "Hal" Turner (born March 15, 1962) is an American far-right political commentator and convicted felon from North Bergen, New Jersey.

Turner's viewpoints typically encompass Holocaust denial,[1] conspiracy theories,[citation needed] white supremacy,[2] and have included calls for assassination of government officials. In August 2010, he was convicted for making threats against three federal judges with the 7th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, for which he spent two years in prison.

Turner has sporadically hosted The Hal Turner Show, usually on shortwave radio station WBCQ, since 2002, as well as a corresponding blog, which has changed URLs frequently and has spread hoaxes and fake news.
 
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Red Baron

Paleo-Conservative
_______________
Analysis

Fair Use Cited
-----------------
How Long Could Ukraine Hold Out Against A New Russian Invasion?
December 17, 2021 18:11 GMT
Although the Ukrainian military has improved since 2014, experts disagree on how broad and deep these improvements are, and how much is possible when a country is still technically at war.

Although the Ukrainian military has improved since 2014, experts disagree on how broad and deep these improvements are, and how much is possible when a country is still technically at war.

It was a large-scale Russian military invasion of Ukraine involving around 130,000 military personnel, mainly from the 20th and 8th Combined Arms Armies.

Paratroopers from 76th and 98th Air Assault Divisions crossed the Ukrainian border from the north, headed toward Kharkiv. From the southeast, units including the 7th and 106th Air Assault Divisions moved to seize the entirety of the already partly occupied Donetsk and Luhansk regions, and then move as far west as the outskirts of Dnipro, another major city. Smaller special operations units – spetsnaz – were also deployed.

Railway chokepoints leading to the Ukrainian borders hampered full deployment, but still, the advance units were followed in rolling waves, by multiple regiments with thousands of troops over the next 10 days.

The goal? “Seizure of parts of Ukraine for incorporation into the Russian state.”

The scenario, published more than 18 months ago, was part of a wargame exercise conducted by the Rand Corporation, a U.S. think tank. Though not a comprehensive analysis, it’s a snapshot of Russia’s military capabilities in eastern Ukraine, where in reality, just across the border, as many as 175,000 Russian troops may be gathered in the coming weeks.

And while the Rand report and more recent military analyses have examined Russian operational tactics, far fewer have looked at the other side of the coin: How long can Ukraine’s armed forces hold out against a bigger, more powerful military force like Russia’s?

1bcf0000-0aff-0242-6e4b-08d9c16f58bf_w650_r0_s.png

“Russia will find them a determined, robust and enduring army whatever Putin chooses to do,” said Glen Grant, a retired British Army artillery officer who served as an adviser to the Ukrainian military.

“The threat has been going on for eight years. We have not ruled this out since 2014. This is war, this is Russia. Russia should be expected to exploit any situation at any moment,” General Oleksandr Pavlyuk, commander of the Joint Operation Forces fighting the separatists, said in an interview with the Donbas.Realities desk of RFE/RL’s Ukrainian Service.

War broke out in Ukraine’s eastern Donbas region in April 2014, just a couple of months after months of street protests in Kyiv exploded in violent police clashes. That led to the ouster of the country’s Moscow-friendly president, who fled to Russia.

In the months that followed, Kyiv’s “Anti-Terrorism Operation” – a mixture of government troops and volunteer militias, often privately funded -- had initial successes against Russia-backed separatist forces.

By late summer, however, Russia had increased its deployment of unmarked military intelligence and even regular troops, resulting in several major defeats for Ukrainian forces, including one in the city of Ilovaysk that August.
Relatives hold portraits of a Ukrainian serviceman, who was killed in the conflict in eastern Ukraine, during a rally in August 2020 to commemorate the 6th anniversary of the Battle of Ilovaysk.

Relatives hold portraits of a Ukrainian serviceman, who was killed in the conflict in eastern Ukraine, during a rally in August 2020 to commemorate the 6th anniversary of the Battle of Ilovaysk.

Those losses highlighted the weak state of Ukraine’s military, which had been hollowed out by years of underfunding and corruption. Problems included outdated equipment, new equipment sold off for kickbacks, officers forced to cover their meager salaries with outside business deals, and vehicles and helicopters lacking fuel or spare parts. Ukrainian children held bake sales to raise money for troops.

“Our army has been systematically destroyed and disarmed, and its best personnel dismissed,” Deputy Defense Minister Petro Mehed told reporters in April 2014.

Since that time, the Ukrainian military has improved, though experts disagree how broad and deep the improvements are, and how much is possible when a country is still technically at war.

Aging Weaponry, Outdated Equipment

Saddled with aging Soviet weaponry and outdated equipment, Ukraine has sought to upgrade its armaments, and the United States has become the largest single supplier of lethal and nonlethal weaponry over the past seven years.

The aid, totaling more than $2.5 billion, includes things like counterartillery radars, drones, flak jackets, night-vision goggles, and armed patrol boats. It has also included sophisticated Javelin anti-tank missiles, which would potentially give Ukrainian troops a small battlefield advantage against Russian tanks.

In November, the United States delivered about 88 tons of ammunition, including nearly three dozen Javelin launchers, and 180 missiles. The new defense budget that Congress passed this week includes $300 million for the Ukraine Security Assistance Initiative.

On Nov 14, received the delivery of approx 80,000 kilos of ammunition from . Part of the up to $60 mln in addtl security assistance directed by President Biden to in Aug, it is a demonstration of commitment to the success of a stable, democratic, & free . pic.twitter.com/nu8jezAcOh
— U.S. Embassy Kyiv (@USEmbassyKyiv) November 14, 2021

Along with other NATO officers, the United States has also tried to improve training for Ukrainian forces; more than 150 troops from the Florida National Guard’s 53rd Infantry Brigade Combat Team are currently in the country.

“The big challenge as I see it is not the military but the political,” Grant told RFE/RL in an e-mail. “There is little faith in the country that the president, as commander-in-chief of the armed forces and his administration, are as prepared, thoughtful, and robust as the army and population at large. Much will depend upon what sort of attack [Russian President Vladimir] Putin decides to follow. There is no appetite in the country for political surrender.”

Ukraine’s military is now estimated to have a total of around 145,000-150,000 troops, with the army comprising the bulk of that. The Joint Forces Operation, which runs operations along a 250-mile “line of control” in the eastern Donetsk and Luhansk regions, are estimated have between 30,000 and 35,000 troops.




Much weaponry and equipment remains outdated, however, with large numbers of old vehicles or old technology. The country’s air force is a small fleet of Soviet helicopters and aging fighter jets whose effectiveness is questionable -- and would likely be wiped out quickly in the event of a major new Russian incursion, experts say.

“The Russians have learned a lot. The Russians have learned a lot from their operations in Syria, they’ve continued to reform their military,” said Alexander Vindman, a former U.S. Army officer who served as European and Russian Affairs director on the White House National Security Council.

“The Ukrainians have learned an enormous amount, but the advantage is still heavily in Russia’s favor,” he told RFE/RL. “So you’re talking about a scenario where there could be heavier casualties, but the outcome doesn’t really change.”

Ukraine’s purchase of Turkish-made Bayraktar TB2 drones, which played a decisive role in last year’s Nagorno-Karabakh conflict between Azerbaijan and Armenia, have caught the attention of Russian forces, though it’s unlikely they would play a decisive role. Kyiv has acquired 12 so far, and dozens more are reportedly on order.
https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-turkish-drone-separatists/31532268.html
“It depends on what you mean by ‘withstand’,” said Tor Bukkvoll, a senior researcher at the Norwegian Defense Research Establishment, a government-funded think tank, when asked how long Ukrainian forces could hold out against a Russian invasion. “If you mean repel, then probably very little or not at all. If you mean continue to fight as an organized force, then probably days or weeks (I am guessing here).”

'Overwhelming And Crushing' Force

Ukrainian forces “are substantially improved, not least because their state in 2014 was so horrible that it does not take too much to improve quite a bit,” Bukkvoll said. “I think their strong sides are combat experience, morale, and some modernization of weaponry, including from abroad.

“Their weak sides seem to be organization, loss of key personnel, and significant weaknesses in certain kinds of weaponry such as for example air defense, electronic warfare, and fighter aircraft,” he said.

Open-source reporting, including satellite imagery, shows that Russia is deploying equipment and weaponry that would allow for an overwhelming onslaught if the order is given. For example, unconfirmed reports have documented trench-digging trucks seen on rail cars heading in the direction of the Ukrainian border, and Buk M-1 antiaircraft missile systems have also been spotted.
Today, our colleague @galandecZP posted two videos recently filmed at Maslovka railway station near Voronezh. The videos show Msta-S self-propelled howitzers, T-80U tanks and apparently a Buk anti-air missile system (at least a dozen launchers and a radar vehicle are visible).1/ https://t.co/27RYHd5Vzz pic.twitter.com/AiHvG3c5yY
— CIT (en) (@CITeam_en) December 8, 2021
While the Rand report hypothesized a theoretical Russian advance to the east bank of the Dnieper River near Dnipro in a matter of days, other reports have suggested a Russian invasion would be so overwhelming that the capital, Kyiv, would be overrun in a matter of hours if Russia set that as an objective.

“If you look at it from a Ukrainian point of view, it depends on how many troops Russia accumulates and which areas become the goal of its operations,” Konrad Muzyka, a Polish defense analyst, told RFE/RL’s Russian Service. “Short-range air-defense systems, anti-tank guided missiles, everything that can slow down the speed of the Russian offensive; such weapons will be especially useful.

“Does Ukraine have military capabilities to stop a full invasion? I don't think so,” Muzyka said. “There are only a few countries in the world that could stop the onslaught of the Russian Army. In case of invasion, Ukraine will need to mobilize as many reservists as possible so that it does not become an easy walk for Russia. In that case, it will be a long and bloody conflict.

“The overwhelming forces assembled [by Russia], it’s designed to suppress casualties. It’s designed to be so overwhelming that it crushes the Ukrainian military,” Vindman said. “It’s not like there will be anything left to chance, so the Ukrainians could amass anything later. It’s supposed to be overwhelming and crushing.”
Ukrainian soldiers walk along the line of separation from pro-Russia separatists in the Donetsk region.

Ukrainian soldiers walk along the line of separation from pro-Russia separatists in the Donetsk region.

Russia might also stop short of a full-scale invasion and aim for limited gains, experts say: for example, to seek a solution to the water problem in Crimea, whose fresh- water supply was cut off by Ukraine in the months after it was seized by Russia in March 2014. Though Russia has built a $3.7-billion bridge that links the peninsula to the Russian mainland, water supplies are a major problem.

A smaller force of Russian troops could seize the swath of Ukrainian territory along the Sea of Azov, including the major port city of Mariupol, creating a “land bridge” to Crimea, and allowing for water to be piped into the peninsula.

A more limited offensive might also be aimed at forcing Kyiv to implement a 2015 peace plan for the Donbas on Russia’s terms.

And while virtually no one expects Ukraine’s military to withstand a full Russian onslaught, Ukrainian officials have suggested that a determined partisan resistance might take shape depending on where and how the attack. occurs.

“Then the whole thing would probably evolve into a drawn-out guerrilla war that would be very painful for both sides,” Bukkvoll said in an e-mail.

How Long Could Ukraine Hold Out Against A New Russian Invasion? (rferl.org)
 

Samuel Adams

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Pure speculation, here.

Does Putin not control the convenience of Europe (bulk of NATO)
to heat their homes ?

I don’t see NATO getting too excited about resisting Putin.

America sends 1000 tanks ?

Maybe it is plan to rid the American homeland of......1000 tanks ?
 

TFergeson

Non Solum Simul Stare
Pure speculation, here.

Does Putin not control the convenience of Europe (bulk of NATO)
to heat their homes ?

I don’t see NATO getting too excited about resisting Putin.

America sends 1000 tanks ?

Maybe it is plan to rid the American homeland of......1000 tanks ?

I had this exact same thought. Our adversaries think and plan steps ahead, while we worry about the 'origins of white rage'
 

naegling62

Veteran Member
Does anyone truly believe that if the West concedes to Putins demands he will stop there? He wants a war. He invaded the Ukraine in 2014 and wants to finish the job. There are Russian troops in the Donbass with all the modern weapons that Putin cries that the West shouldnt provide the Ukraine. He violates the Minsk agreement more than the Ukes. His dream is a mighty rebuilt Soviet Union where he is Czar. He has his hand in almost every energy and defense industry in Russia and has made a couple hundred billion in kickbacks and "fees". He doesnt care about the Russian people unless it puts money in his pocket or enhances his prestige and power.
I watch Russian media, I don't know about the assessment that he doesn't care.

I think we are wrong to judge Russia's form of government against the West's. Russia is what it is, a country at the end of an empire trying to regroup and function under a Unipolar world.
 

Doomer Doug

TB Fanatic
You get DOCUMENTED video of tank movement, granted from an "iffy" source Hal Lindsey, with video to back it up.

You get CONFIRMATION about a general mobilization of railroad crews in conus, homecanner in post 1706 and you poo poo that.
THE :poop: IS ON THE MOVE TO THE UKRAINE. maybe less than 1000. Maybe not.

Quoting wikipedia is a joke. They are a radical Marxist toxic site spewing hate towards patriots.

We will know by Christmas one way or another. I'm keeping in touch with Oreally who will get the third level of verification at actual train stations.

The deep state wants a war with putin and EVERYTHING I posted confirms that.

Besides, I posted this FIRST in private conversations with housecarl, daniel and Oreally because I knew the info would be trashed. However when it was confirmex by video of tanks moving I gave the head's up to the board. As usual timebomb is ahead of the curve.
And when you add the tank video to the conus railroad crew alert you got your 1000 tanks in motion from bulgaria back to conus.
It is a FACT massive amounts of NATO supplies are now, and have been in motion to the ukraine, ESPECIALL the last 3 months by planes and roll of ships. One to odessa last month.
 

mecoastie

Veteran Member
I watch Russian media, I don't know about the assessment that he doesn't care.

I think we are wrong to judge Russia's form of government against the West's. Russia is what it is, a country at the end of an empire trying to regroup and function under a Unipolar world.

Russian media will never say anything unfavorable about Vlad. The editors and producers know they would disappear if they did.
 
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