I WOULD TAKE A HUNDRED BULLETS FOR HER

[GingerN]

No, the 14 year residency is a seperate requirement....Natural Born Citizen & be a resident for 14 years that is TWO requirements. A third requirement you have to be 35 yrs old. So there is a total of 3 requirements.


Again, both Obama & McCain would not be covered under the Grandfather Clause unless they born back then ...so they are not Natural Born Citizens


McCain is only a citizen by the statue you stated.

No. US bases, and embassies do count as American soil, therefore, since McCain was born on a US military installation, and to 2 American citizens, he does qualify as natural born. Embassies and bases are regarded as the home soil of the nation to which they belong, i.e. the British embassy in NY is considered to be British soil, and the American embassy in London is American soil.

And don't forget that during the time that O was born, there was a law on the books that stated that if one parent was a foreigner, and one a citizen, the citizen parent had to have been living on US Soil for at least 10 yrs, 5 of which had to have been after the age of 16. O's mother was 18 when he was born, so under that statute, she was not eligible to have conveyed citizenship to her child.

 

[skip1]

WHY???

Picking her in 2012 would be a very bad idea, although I doubt she'll make it out of the primaries.

IF Sarah is what you claim...Obama heck would win 57 states....oops I mean 50 states.

 

[skip1]

McCain is Not A Natural Born Citizen

No. US bases, and embassies do count as American soil, therefore, since McCain was born on a US military installation, and to 2 American citizens, he does qualify as natural born. Embassies and bases are regarded as the home soil of the nation to which they belong, i.e. the British embassy in NY is considered to be British soil, and the American embassy in London is American soil.

And don't forget that during the time that O was born, there was a law on the books that stated that if one parent was a foreigner, and one a citizen, the citizen parent had to have been living on US Soil for at least 10 yrs, 5 of which had to have been after the age of 16. O's mother was 18 when he was born, so under that statute, she was not eligible to have conveyed citizenship to her child.

McCain is only a citizen not a natural born citizen. He was made a citizen by statue ONLY....Even the 14th amendment does not cover him... That is why the MSM, Dems picked him...It took the issue of Obama also not being a Natural Born Citizen since his father was a British citizen when Obama was born off the table.

FYI: McCain was not even born on a military base but a Panamanian Hospital in Colon




TITLE 8 > CHAPTER 12 > SUBCHAPTER III > Part I > § 1401Prev | Next § 1401. Nationals and citizens of United States at birth

The following shall be nationals and citizens of the United States at birth:

(a) a person born in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof;

(b) a person born in the United States to a member of an Indian, Eskimo, Aleutian, or other aboriginal tribe: Provided, That the granting of citizenship under this subsection shall not in any manner impair or otherwise affect the right of such person to tribal or other property;

(c) a person born outside of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents both of whom are citizens of the United States and one of whom has had a residence in the United States or one of its outlying possessions, prior to the birth of such person;

(d) a person born outside of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents one of whom is a citizen of the United States who has been physically present in the United States or one of its outlying possessions for a continuous period of one year prior to the birth of such person, and the other of whom is a national, but not a citizen of the United States;

(e) a person born in an outlying possession of the United States of parents one of whom is a citizen of the United States who has been physically present in the United States or one of its outlying possessions for a continuous period of one year at any time prior to the birth of such person;

(f) a person of unknown parentage found in the United States while under the age of five years, until shown, prior to his attaining the age of twenty-one years, not to have been born in the United States;

(g) a person born outside the geographical limits of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents one of whom is an alien, and the other a citizen of the United States who, prior to the birth of such person, was physically present in the United States or its outlying possessions for a period or periods totaling not less than five years, at least two of which were after attaining the age of fourteen years: Provided, That any periods of honorable service in the Armed Forces of the United States, or periods of employment with the United States Government or with an international organization as that term is defined in section 288 of title 22 by such citizen parent, or any periods during which such citizen parent is physically present abroad as the dependent unmarried son or daughter and a member of the household of a person

(A) honorably serving with the Armed Forces of the United States, or

(B) employed by the United States Government or an international organization as defined in section 288 of title 22, may be included in order to satisfy the physical-presence requirement of this paragraph. This proviso shall be applicable to persons born on or after December 24, 1952, to the same extent as if it had become effective in its present form on that date; and

(h) a person born before noon (Eastern Standard Time) May 24, 1934, outside the limits and jurisdiction of the United States of an alien father and a mother who is a citizen of the United States who, prior to the birth of such person, had resided in the United States.


http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode08/usc_sec_08_00001401----000-.html


IF you were correct there would be no need for this statue & it would say natural born citizen. It only says citizen.

 

[Digital Omnivore]

She was picked because she's a woman, and because of her conservative religion. McCain was viewed by the very powerful right wing of the GOP as too conservative. He needed someone who would appeal to them, and he also hoped to attract women voters. The typical Hillary voter, however, is liberal, so this backfired.

Uhh, McCain was viewed as not conservative enough which is why they wanted a real conservative for VP.

Again, look at what McCain did in the polls after he picked Palin. It was the only time he led the race.

 

[fruit loop]

Exactly. And the polls fell off, and he lost the election, after people got to know her.

She won't make it out of a primary. Might get another VP selection AT MOST.

 

[Utopianwar]

What I know about her she seems cool. She reminds me of Linda Hamlton from the Terminator movies, so tha is why I would like to see her in office! At least she stands for vaules more then I can say about Obamalamadindong. Palin though a polticain has some respect from me.

 

[Utopianwar]

IF Sarah is what you claim...Obama heck would win 57 states....oops I mean 50 states.

Hey, that was my running joke against him... lol I thnk he ment 58, I though he said he had won 57, and was about to take 58, so how many was it then? How many did McCain have? Maybe he had 52? lol Man we have a lot states, lol.

 

[skip1]

ANOTHER REASON WHY THEY FEAR SARAH

PALIN DEMOCRAT
​

 

[Digital Omnivore]

Exactly. And the polls fell off, and he lost the election, after people got to know her.

She won't make it out of a primary. Might get another VP selection AT MOST.

The polls fell off after the economic collapse. You can look at the polling, it was basically when Lehman went and people stopped worrying about the Russia thing, Obama shot up in the polls.

Palin was a plus to that ticket. The sillyness you cite about how the media tore her up just made the base all the more supportive of her.

I don't think she'll win the nomination, though it's a pretty tough thing to predict who will win a nomination so far out. Hell, McCain was written off in the Republican primaries and came back to win. People who looked like sure winners (Rudy, Romney) weren't.

 

[BigBadBossyDog]

Uhh, McCain was viewed as not conservative enough which is why they wanted a real conservative for VP.

Again, look at what McCain did in the polls after he picked Palin. It was the only time he led the race.

What he said.

 

[et2]

She reminds me of Obama. Somewhat condescending. She did not impress me as VP ... she certainly would not impress me as president.

 

[skip1]

OH REALLY

She reminds me of Obama. Somewhat condescending. She did not impress me as VP ... she certainly would not impress me as president.

ORGINALLY INTERVIEW GOING TO BE ABOUT NEW GAS PIPELINE DEAL THAT SARAH GOT FOR ALASKA…AMERICA...THEN OF COURSE MAUER HAD TO BRING UP LETTERMAN…WELL YOU WILL SEE whose LUNCH GOT EATEN…

TAKE LOOK AT....

SARACUDA


V



V



V

PRESIDENT PALIN 2012​

 

[skip1]

ANOTHER REASON WHY THEY FEAR SARAH

SARAH PALIN - 4-16-09 AT VANDERBURH RIGHT TO LIFE BANQUET - ENERGY, STIMULUS MONEY, MISSILE DEFENSE

WOW


BOY AFTER WATCHING THIS VIDEO ….TALKS ABOUT GOD, TEA PARTIES, 11 TRILLION IN DEBT, ENSLAVED TO CHINA WHO HOLDS THOSE NOTES, CENTRALIZED GOV'T LITTERALLY TAKING OVER THE STATES… N. KOREAN MISSILES… ALASKA IS THE AIR CROSS ROADS OF THE WORLD… JOKING ABOUT KATIE… SHE IS LIKE I SAID......


V

WOW


PRESIDENT PALIN 2012​

 

[Warthog]

I'm not taking any bullets for any of these people.

 

[kozanne]

Lauer tried so verrrry hard to get her in the corner, didn't he? And that was an epic FAIL.

 

[skip1]

CHECK OUT ABOVE VIDEO....

THIS ONE.... SARAH PALIN - 4-16-09 AT VANDERBURH ... POST 133

SARAH TALKS ABOUT MISSILE SHIELD IN ALASKA PROTECTING U.S. CITIES FROM N. KOREAN NUKE TIPPED MISSILES...OBAMA WANTS TO CUT IT...MORE GOING ON...MUCH MORE

V


N Korea says it will 'weaponize' its plutonium

Jun 13, 6:46 AM (ET)

By KWANG-TAE KIM


SEOUL, South Korea (AP) - North Korea vowed Saturday to step up its atomic bomb-making program and threatened war if its ships are stopped as part of new U.N. sanctions aimed at punishing the nation for its latest nuclear test.

North Korea's Foreign Ministry also acknowledged for the first time that the country has a uranium enrichment program, and insisted it will never abandon its nuclear ambitions. Uranium and plutonium can be used to make atomic bombs.

The threats, in a statement issued through the official Korean Central News Agency, came a day after the Security Council approved new sanctions aimed at depriving the North of the financing used to build its rogue nuclear program.

The resolution also authorized searches of North Korean ships suspected of transporting illicit ballistic missile and nuclear materials.

The sanctions are "yet another vile product of the U.S.-led offensive of international pressure aimed at undermining ... disarming DPRK and suffocating its economy," the North Korean statement said.

Pyongyang blamed Washington for the nuclear tensions, saying it was "compelled to go nuclear in the face of the U.S. hostile policy and its nuclear threats."

Washington says it has no intention of attacking the North and said its concern is that North Korea is trying to sell its nuclear technology to other nations.

Saturday's threats made clear North Korea's refusal to back down from international calls to give up its nuclear ambitions in the wake of its April rocket launch and underground nuclear test last month.

The statement also raised concerns of a military skirmish.

"An attempted blockade of any kind by the U.S. and its followers will be regarded as an act of war and met with a decisive military response," the North said.

As a precaution, South Korea has dispatched hundreds more marines to two islands near a western maritime border with North Korea that was the scene of deadly naval clashes in 1999 and 2002, officials said Friday.

North Korea's acknowledgment that it has a uranium-enrichment program appears to confirm that it has a second source of bomb-making materials in addition to plutonium.

North Korea is believed to have about 110 pounds (50 kilograms) of plutonium, enough for half a dozen bombs, Yoon Deok-min, a professor at South Korea's state-run Institute of Foreign Affairs and National Security, said Saturday.

Reprocessing 8,000 spent nuclear fuel rods stored at North Korea's Yongbyon complex could yield additional 18 to 22 pounds (8-10 kilograms) of plutonium - enough to make at least one more atomic bomb, he said.

More than a third of the spent fuel rods have been reprocessed and the rest of its plutonium will be weaponized, North Korea said Saturday.

Those moves would mark a significant step away from a disarmament pact between North Korea and five other nations in wake of its first nuclear test in 2006.

Under the deal, North Korea agreed to disable its main nuclear complex in Yongbyon north of Pyongyang in return for 1 million tons of fuel oil and other concessions. In June 2008, North Korea blew up the cooling tower there in a dramatic show of its commitment to denuclearization.

But disablement came to halt a month later as Pyongyang wrangled with Washington over how to verify its past atomic activities. The latest round of talks, in December, failed to push the process forward. The negotiations involve China, Japan, the two Koreas, Russia and the U.S.

North Korea walked away from the talks in April after the Security Council condemned its April 5 rocket launch, seen by the U.S., Japan and others as a cover for a long-range missile test.

North Korea has said it will test another long-range missile and is suspected of preparing for a third nuclear test, but there is no evidence that either plan is imminent.

Washington had anticipated a strong North Korean response to the U.N. sanctions. Susan Rice, U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, cautioned Friday that North Korea could react to the resolution with "further provocation."

"There's reason to believe they may respond in an irresponsible fashion to this," she told reporters.

Analyst Kim Yong-hyun of Seoul's Dongguk University said North Korea was sending a stern message to Washington before President Barack Obama sits down with South Korea's Lee Myung-bak for summit talks at the White House on Tuesday.

He said North Korea is engaging in a game of "chicken" with the U.S. that he predicted would eventually end in talks

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20090613/D98PO6T80.html

V
NO NOT GAME OF CHICKEN...​

 

[skip1]

NO NOT A GAME A CHICKEN

EURASIANS ARE COMING

>

V

ALASKA A GATEWAY AS SARAH WARNED THE AUDIENCE


V


SO GET READY

V



ALASKA WILL BE A FRONTLINE

​

SO PREPARE!!!!!...

 

[skip1]

GOING TO HAVE TO FIGHT

GOD WILLING I WILL FIGHT TO THE LAST DROP...

LIKE OUR G.I.S DID BACK...

 

[skip1]

OH YEAH....

HEY EURASIANS

 

[skip1]

Taking It Up A Notch

KIM WANT TO RENUIFY THE KOREAN PENSULIA UNDER HIS LEADERSHIP…KICK THE USA OFF PACFIC ASIA MAINLAND…NOW IS HIS BEST OPPORTUNITY… CHINA, IVAN WOULD LOVE THIS AS WELL

V

N KOREA WARNS OF NUCLEAR WAR AMID RISING TENSIONS

Jun 14, 7:26 AM (ET)

By HYUNG-JIN KIM


SEOUL, South Korea (AP) - North Korea's communist regime has warned of a nuclear war on the Korean peninsula while vowing to step up its atomic bomb-making program in defiance of new U.N. sanctions.

The North's defiance presents a growing diplomatic headache for President Barack Obama as he prepares for talks Tuesday with his South Korean counterpart on the North's missile and nuclear programs.

South Korean President Lee Myung-bak told security-related ministers during an unscheduled meeting Sunday to "resolutely and squarely" cope with the North's latest threat, his office said. Lee is to leave for the U.S. on Monday morning.

A commentary Sunday in the North's main state-run Rodong Sinmun newspaper, carried by the official Korean Central News Agency, claimed the U.S. has 1,000 nuclear weapons in South Korea. Another commentary published Saturday in the state-run Tongil Sinbo weekly claimed the U.S. has been deploying a vast amount of nuclear weapons in South Korea and Japan.


(AP) South Korean protesters burn North Korean national flags during a rally, denouncing the ninth...
Full Image


North Korea "is completely within the range of U.S. nuclear attack and the Korean peninsula is becoming an area where the chances of a nuclear war are the highest in the world," the Tongil Sinbo commentary said.

Kim Yong-kyu, a spokesman at the U.S. military command in Seoul, called the latest accusation "baseless," saying Washington has no nuclear bombs in South Korea. U.S. tactical nuclear weapons were removed from South Korea in 1991 as part of arms reductions following the Cold War.

South Korea's Unification Ministry issued a statement Sunday demanding the North stop stoking tension, abandon its nuclear weapons and return to dialogue with the South.

On Saturday, North Korea's Foreign Ministry threatened war on any country that dared to stop its ships on the high seas under the new sanctions approved by the U.N. Security Council on Friday as punishment for the North's latest nuclear test.

It is not clear if the statements are simply rhetorical. Still, they are a huge setback for international attempts to rein in North Korea's nuclear ambitions following its second nuclear test on May 25. It first tested a nuclear device in 2006.


(AP) South Korean protesters scuffle with police officers as they try to enter former President Kim...
Full Image


In Saturday's statement, North Korea said it has been enriching uranium to provide fuel for its light-water reactor. It was the first public acknowledgment the North is running a uranium enrichment program in addition to its known plutonium-based program. The two radioactive materials are key ingredients in making atomic bombs.

On Sunday, Yonhap news agency reported South Korea and the U.S. have mobilized spy satellites, reconnaissance aircraft and human intelligence networks to obtain evidence that the North has been running a uranium enrichment program.

South Korea's Defense Ministry said it could not confirm the report. The National Intelligence Service - South Korea's main spy agency - was not available for comment.

North Korea said more than one-third of 8,000 spent fuel rods in its possession has been reprocessed and all the plutonium extracted would be used to make atomic bombs. The country could harvest 13-18 pounds (6-8 kilograms) of plutonium - enough to make at least one nuclear bomb - if all the rods are reprocessed.

In addition, North Korea is believed to have enough plutonium for at least half a dozen atomic bombs.

North Korea says its nuclear program is a deterrent against the U.S., which it routinely accuses of plotting to topple its regime. Washington, which has 28,500 troops in South Korea, has repeatedly said it has no such intention.

The new U.N. sanctions are aimed at depriving the North of the financing used to build its rogue nuclear program. The resolution also authorized searches of North Korean ships suspected of transporting illicit ballistic missile and nuclear materials.

U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton said the new U.N. penalties provide the necessary tools to help check North Korea's continued pursuit of nuclear weapons.

The sanctions show that "North Korea's pursuit of nuclear weapons and the capacity to deliver those weapons through missiles is not going to be accepted by the neighbors as well as the greater international community," Clinton said Saturday at a news conference in Canada.

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20090614/D98QDSOO0.html​

 

[fruit loop]

I don't think you understand the meaning of the word "Eurasian."

"Eurasian" is a term for people who are of mixed European and Asian ancestry (English/Vietnamese, for instance).

 

[skip1]

ALSO

THE EURASIANS WILL USE N. KOREA TO DO THEIR DIRTY WORK...
V

NUKE SOME U.S. CITIES

SAN FRANSICO FOR ONE​

 

[skip1]

SO REASON

WHY PALIN IS A THREAT...CAUSES THEM A LOT OF PROBLEMS....
V

SHE HAS APPEAL ...THAT "IT" QUALITY


TO THOSE IN THE USA TO FIGHT BACK THE EURASIANS HORDES... KEEP THE CONUS FROM BREAKING UP... ALASKA IS A MAJOR FORNTLINE IN THE ENSUING EURASIAN CONQUEST PLANS...SARAH UNDERSTANDS THIS & IS PREPARING... SO MY ESP TELLS ME ...​

 

[Double_A]

wow, what a ton of bandwidth being used on all the images in this thread

 

[skip1]

OH I WOULD FOLLOW SARAH IN DEFENSE OF OUR HOMELAND...ONLY LEADER

IN FIGHTING THE

V


RED STORM THAT IS COMING

GLADLY TAKE A HUNDRED BULLETS FOR HER​

SARAH PALIN IS THE ONLY & REAL HOPE FOR OUR COUNTRY

 

[fruit loop]

I agree. The pictures are too big and the posts lack literacy. They lead to links to a youtube site. Just post the link to the site for those who want to go there.

This youtube guy needs to look up the word Eurasian because he doesn't know what it means. Sorry, I give no credibility to fearmongers on youtube...especially when they misuse words and lack basic literacy skills.

 

[skip1]

OH

wow, what a ton of bandwidth being used on all the images in this thread

I SEE DON'T LIKE WHAT I POST....TRYING TO GET IT BANNED.... BOY

V


MSM MATERIAL

V

I HEAR CHIS MATTHEWS…HARDBALL FAME ...IS LOOKNG FOR A GOFER OR TWO​

 

[skip1]

NOT FOR SOME

I agree. The pictures are too big and the posts lack literacy. They lead to links to a youtube site. Just post the link to the site for those who want to go there.

This youtube guy needs to look up the word Eurasian because he doesn't know what it means. Sorry, I give no credibility to fearmongers on youtube...especially when they misuse words and lack basic literacy skills.

SINCE I STARTED THIS THREAD LAST SUNDAY

NEARLY 3000 VIEWS​

 

[skip1]

TO COMMEMORATE MY ONE WEEK ANNIVERSARY FOR THIS THREAD…MY FIRST POST REDUX

PALIN SPEECH...172ND STRYKER BRIGADE COMBAT TEAM BASED IN ALASKA
​

 

[skip1]

YET ANOTHER REASON WHY THEY FEAR SARAH

MANY ISSUES COVERED… BAILOUT OUT THE STATES…OBAMA WILL USE TO CONTROL THE PEOPLE LIKE HE DID IN THE PRIVATE SECTOR BAILOUTS...CHINA BUYING UP THE DEBT …WILL ENSLAVE AMERICA…LETTERMAN…. IS SHE RUNNING PRESIDENT IN 2012…BEST OF ALL…USES THE WORD

V

WEAK

V

TO DESCRIBE OBAMA

V


CNN WOLF BLITZER GOVERNOR SARAH PALIN PART 2

WOLF DID A GOOD FAIR INTERVIEW...YEAH HE LAID SOME TRAPS...BUT SHE HANDLE THEM WELL...WOLF IS NO FOOL SEES HER STOCK RISING​

 

[skip1]

ALASKIAN GAS PIPLINE DEAL

AND OTHER ECONOMIC QUESTIONS...

CNN WOLF BLITZER WITH GOVERNOR SARAH PALIN PART 1

IF MCSHAME WOULD HAVE LET SARAH BE SARAH LIKE DURING THIS INTERVIEW HE BE PRESIDENT​

BUT ON THE FLIP SIDE WE GET PRESIDENT PALIN IN 2012

 

[BigBadBossyDog]

I'm enjoying this immensely.

We LOVE you, Sarah!

 

[skip1]

YOU WILL LOVE THIS

I'm enjoying this immensely.

We LOVE you, Sarah!

SARAH PALIN AMERICA’S SWEETHEART

NICE MONTAGE​

YES THERE IS FOR AMERICA... PRESIDENT PALIN 2012 ... OK FOR THOSE WHO DON'T GET IT...THE PICTURE IS MEANT TO BE FACETIOUS

 

[skip1]

THANKS LETTERMAN

SARAH PALIN’S SISTER SOULJAH MOMENT

NOT ME SAYING THIS BUT MSNBC Norah O'Donnell OF ALL PEOPLE​

HER CO-HOST TRIED TO DOWNPLAY O’DONNELL STATEMENT... NO POLITICAL VIBRATIONS...YEAH RIGHT ... O’DONNELL IS RIGHT...THIS WAS SARAH'S SISTER SOULJAH MOMENT

 

[Zinnia]

I SEE DON'T LIKE WHAT I POST....TRYING TO GET IT BANNED.... BOY

V


MSM MATERIAL

V

I HEAR CHIS MATTHEWS…HARDBALL FAME ...IS LOOKNG FOR A GOFER OR TWO​

It's just standard operating procedure,Skip.This is what they do.

Carry on.

 

[skip1]

THAT IS A ROGER

 

[Satanta]

Well, if the images are linked then they hardly use up any bandwidth and they all seem to fit in my monitor at 600x800.

If they are uploaded then they have to meet a particular size spec or they cannot be loaded.

If Dennis or Con-tractor note issues then it will be discussed between staff and skip without anyone else input or inclusion and we will come to an agreement on how to deal with it but at this point it has not made a blip on the radar screen that I am aware of.

skip-you look at little obsessive but I am like that about my photography so can't fault you there tho now I know why I get strange looks when talking about it sometimes.

 

[fruit loop]

Well, that's interesting, because I once got hit with three points for posting in #3 font, and it the reply wasn't even hostile.

 

[skip1]

STRATEGIC ERROR

CONVENTIONAL WISDOM

V​

WOULD DICTATE THAT AXLEROLD Inc. SHOULD HAVE IGNORED PALIN AFTER THE ELECTION & MADE SURE THEIR SURRAGTES DID THE SAME... WITH MCSHAME'S OWN STAFF DURING THE PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN… AXLEROD INC. WAS EFFECTIVE IN MARGINALIZING SARAH OUTSIDE OF THE CONSERVATIVE BASE WHO KNEW THE REAL SARAH…SO WHY KEEP AFTER HER???? SURE SOME WILL SAY THAT IS HOW THE LEFT OPERATES…YES TO SOME EXTENT…BUT AXLEROD IS NOT STUPID…WHY TAKE THE RISK THAT SOMETHING COULD GO WRONG WHICH IT DID WITH LETTERMAN…. THE ANSWER IS THAT PALIN WAS CHOOSEN AS MCSHAME’S VP PICK NOT BY MCSHAME BUT HIGHER UPS IN THE CONSERVATIVE MOVEMENT…TO RUN IN 2012…AXLEROD INC. IS WELL AWARE OF THIS & SARAH’S ABILITES & APPEAL … SO THEY TOOK THE RISK..OF TRYING TO DESTORY HER NOW…BEFORE 2010 AND...

V

BOY DID IT

V
BACKFIRED
​

 

[Satanta]

Well...you could type normally the changing fonts and sizes is really annoying. Makes you look spastic too BTW.