Ordinary Girl
Veteran Member
We are arming them, giving them tactical info, training them, and now sending them to a us base for medical...but we aren’t at war??
ALERT RUSSIA INVADES UKRAINE - Consolidated Thread
- Thread starter danielboon
- Start date
jward
passin' thru
wait-n-see
Veteran Member
Excellent questions. And the only person/persons who could answer ... are not going to do so. Only Putin and his circle know what they are trying to achieve, and the cost they are willing to pay for it. However, the cost which the Russians are paying for is no where the cost being thrown about by the western propaganda organs. Try to review some news not from the western propaganda trough and you will see all is not so bad for the Russians.
Maybe the western powers are the ones being bled out in arms, equipment and resources while the Russians are slowly taking the pace they want too, with much less casualties than being thrown about, setting up their own working financial conglomerate with willing partners and preparing for the day when they cut off the western powers in the same way the western powers cut them off?
Who knows for sure right now, except for Putin and his circle?
Just browse thru yahoo during the day and you would think this is Ukraine and not the USA. The fake news is so desperate to force the narrative that they are even regurgitating stories from early March about mass surrenders of Russian troops. However, I have noticed a slight change in the recent weeks where not all stories are slanted towards a full out Russian surrender/collapse.
Lots of words and times being thrown around here, with some dates specified in the next month or two. Hopefully, we will soon see what the truth is and how deeply we have been lied to by both sides. However, even 2 months may be way too soon and this could easily be dragged out into next year.
My guess is that Russia has time on its side, and the longer this last then the more damage to the western powers economy and financial foundations. Maybe this is why Russia is in no hurry? We will see in the end, eh?
@@@ interesting source of news
BTW, a very interesting youtube channel mentioned by Walrus is Military Summary. Very detailed reports and very interesting to keep track of what is going on. He already mentioned about the formation of at least 12 battlegroups being formed to fight in the east using the Iranian drones for recon and spotting, with a possible operational start date of around a month from now.
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Mongo
Veteran Member
Doug, Putin clearly has not WON.
Yet.
What's not being reported, but is also happening sure as the sun sets in the west, is that our people are operating the advanced weapons systems such as the HIMARR. It takes much too long to train people to a combat-ready standard on systems like this, than what's just discretely not being discussed. And that doesn't even include reloading the launch blocks, daily maintenance and diagnostic self-checks which are required for such high-tech units. Add to that the training and planning required to shoot and scoot in order to keep the Russkies guessing where they're going to pop up next.
All this adds up to a bunch of Americans over there directly in the fight. I hope those boys have their wills all made out; they are prime target #1 for the entire Russian military. I doubt any of them will make it back home.
And why are they there, exactly? To "defend our 'democracy'", no doubt.
We are at war.
You're right, especially by saying "yet". There's a lot of bleeding yet to do. There's a whale of a battle shaping up in the Bakhmut/Kherson region. Those poor sods on both sides ....
Artificially Intelli
Senior Member
true dat
Doomer Doug
TB Fanatic
Putin has showed remarkable restraint in this proxy war that has seen direct NATO/RUSSIA/EU/USA combat from day 1.
Now the REAL killing starts and if Putin is as incompetent as potrayed in the west , or here on timebomb, then it will conclude with nukes. The russians have said multiple times they will go down in existential glory. You all better hope I am correct. If I am not, then Putin will indeed exchange a conventional defeat for a nuclear gotterdamerrung.
Now the REAL killing starts and if Putin is as incompetent as potrayed in the west , or here on timebomb, then it will conclude with nukes. The russians have said multiple times they will go down in existential glory. You all better hope I am correct. If I am not, then Putin will indeed exchange a conventional defeat for a nuclear gotterdamerrung.
blueinterceptor
Veteran Member
Putin has won. What has yet to be determined is the final body count and how bloody and how much property destruction is left to be had.
Doomer Doug
TB Fanatic
War by other means allows Putin to destroy the EU by cutting off the energy flow which he has now done. So running arounding shelling ukies is just part of the game.
Doc1
Has No Life - Lives on TB
Oreally, I am 100% confident that the Russians will declare victory by the morning of August 27th. I am equally confident that I have no idea of what particular year that August will fall in ;-)
Best
Doc
danielboon
TB Fanatic
Your forgetting about XI the real drama kicks off when the war with China begins that's when things will get busy View: https://mobile.twitter.com/EndGameWW3/status/1552104998057791490?cxt=HHwWhMC-9bbRl4orAAAA
That's a great point and no doubt one of the reasons we've not seen the shock and awe thang. The longer this drags on, the better it is for Russia, regardless of how many retired generals continue writing articles about how they're running short of ....... you name it, they're running out of it. I think the West has been such an overmatch with the big armies it's seen (Iraq), it has convinced itself that a proper war is over in weeks.
When oh-so-comfy Europeans start freezing this winter and food riots due to shortages are happening all over the world, Russia will be sitting in toasty offices counting their rubles and welcoming more countries into the new multi-polar world.
Whole lotta shakin' out yet to be done.
von Koehler
Has No Life - Lives on TB
Some objective evidence is the recent drastic cutback of Russian artillery attacks, which gives support to the claim that Ukrainian artillery is quite effective.
The Russians are using WWII era tactics, which rely on massive amounts of troops as cannon fodder.
naegling62
Veteran Member
That fighter jet looks too big compared to the plane behind it. Anyone else see that?
jed turtle
a brother in the Lord
I am just a rural homesteader without any training at the college level in just about any level of science, but it does seem to me that if anything, Biden is indeed working for the Chinese to take our country down economically and culturally, using the Russian paranoia about invasion from the west to
wear us down and defeat us economically. I say that because it sure as hell looks like it. Perhaps I have it wrong, and instead maybe this is all intended to take down ALL the super powers economically so that they can be replaced -after an appropriate event involving a brief exchange of nuclear weapons to sober all sides up - by a global one world organization, but I don’t think so. The west has forced Russia to make alliances with China, Iran, and other lesser misfits in order to survive against the DC-London-Vatican alliance which plans on ruling the world -whatever is left of it. I think the plan is to decimate the vast populations of the Far East. Armageddon doesn’t seem so very far away anymore. The vast oil resources of the Middle East are, without doubt, the big prize for all sides in this ultimate King of the Mountain tussel. It is good to remember we are all just passing through, and our ultimate destiny has nothing to do with The Great Game...
Doc1
Has No Life - Lives on TB
Just a small point of clarification: Early in the war, the Russians performed a lot of human wave attacks. Exactly as in WWI, they attempted these attacks with troops armed (primarily) with Mosin-Nagant bolt-action rifles. This was just one of the (many) reasons for the early German successes.
Of course the Germans were also using bolt-action Mausers, but tactically, they never (formally) adopted the suicidal human wave attacks like the Soviets and Japanese did. A bit later in the war the Soviets stopped the idiotic human wave attacks and started using more modern fire and maneuver tactics that they basically learned from their encounters with the Germans.
On the other hand, the Soviet/Russian armies have always used massive artillery bombardment to "soften up" the battlefield. They also learned early on that these artillery attacks were not as effective on well dug in troops as they expected them to be. They doubled down on those artillery failures though, and rather than abandoning the tactic, they vastly increased their artillery bombardments (often to an almost unbelievable extent). This change finally worked and caused the Germans no end of grief. The Germans - due to lesser industrial output and logistical difficulties - were only rarely able to match the Soviet's artillery storm.
Since WWII the Soviets/Russians have retained the massive artillery doctrine and are still using it in Ukraine. In addition to conventional artillery, both sides are now using precision guided missiles, but as measured by round count I doubt if the missile fires amount to even 1% of rounds expended.
Best
Doc
von Koehler
Has No Life - Lives on TB
As the Soviets approached Berlin the German General figured out their most likely plan of attack.
He ordered his troops back and waited for the end of the massive artillery attack. When they fired their last shell the Germans simply returned to their position on the Seelow heights.
If you look at Ukrainian farm fields you will observe hundreds of shell blast craters, having not hit anything thing of military importance.
This approach is effective if you have nearly unlimited cannons and ordinance.
Even during the battle for Stalingrad, Soviet troops were sent in without rifes. They were told to pick up a dead comrades rife and go forward.
Doomer Doug
TB Fanatic
The russians have refused to engage the NATO and US forces operating the sophisticated targeting systems. ALL of zippy and ukies victories have been based on the combination of advanced weapon and targeting systems operated by western military techs. Despite this Vlad the Impaler meets his targeting goals. He is now pretty much where he wanted to be along with DETAILED combat info on western military systems, no doubt reverse engineered for his buddy XI thd Merciless.
Further, Vlad has Iranian reverse engineered AMERICAN drones they gave to china back in 2011
Vlad has essentially destroyed the EU with his gas shutoffs. He can engage the Europe on Kalingrad, the Norway Island, the Ukraine and a broad range of political, economic, and military targets. Vlad has also is taken over most of eastern ukraine, captured or killed tens of thousands of the BEST ukie troops, and the list goes on. And the pro ukie crowd is talking about the ukrainian victory, their counter offensive and how the scraps zippy has been given have blown up a russian tank or ammo dump here or there. And from these tid bidits zippy gives us his version of the movie downfall with hitler sending in 4 tank killers to stop Patton's 3rd armored pouring 1000 tanks to face his 4 panzer killers.
I mean Putin has won. It is just a matter of the butcher's bill being added up and the iranian drones catching zippy's forces out in the field and his artillery after they fired. Russians figured out how to use drones to zero in on the wunder weapons and blow them up, which they have been getting pretty good at.
I'm sure XI the Merciless and the pla are gettine DETAILSD operational data on our latest toys like the h whatever.
Proxy wars teach combat skills just like the Spanish Civil War taught both the Russians and Germans how to fight each other.
Biden is no doubt making sure the pla is getting a good look at our stuff in the ukraine.
biden's cabal is a good little traitor for china.
Further, Vlad has Iranian reverse engineered AMERICAN drones they gave to china back in 2011
Vlad has essentially destroyed the EU with his gas shutoffs. He can engage the Europe on Kalingrad, the Norway Island, the Ukraine and a broad range of political, economic, and military targets. Vlad has also is taken over most of eastern ukraine, captured or killed tens of thousands of the BEST ukie troops, and the list goes on. And the pro ukie crowd is talking about the ukrainian victory, their counter offensive and how the scraps zippy has been given have blown up a russian tank or ammo dump here or there. And from these tid bidits zippy gives us his version of the movie downfall with hitler sending in 4 tank killers to stop Patton's 3rd armored pouring 1000 tanks to face his 4 panzer killers.
I mean Putin has won. It is just a matter of the butcher's bill being added up and the iranian drones catching zippy's forces out in the field and his artillery after they fired. Russians figured out how to use drones to zero in on the wunder weapons and blow them up, which they have been getting pretty good at.
I'm sure XI the Merciless and the pla are gettine DETAILSD operational data on our latest toys like the h whatever.
Proxy wars teach combat skills just like the Spanish Civil War taught both the Russians and Germans how to fight each other.
Biden is no doubt making sure the pla is getting a good look at our stuff in the ukraine.
biden's cabal is a good little traitor for china.
WTSR
Veteran Member
I don't agree with this part, this is the Ukrainian mode in this conflict which recently bragged about 1,000,000 people under military service. They have had approximately 100,000 casulaties so far per their own government, NATO is going to treat Ukrainian Soldiers to try to prop them up now too, in Germany. Over 10,000 POWs.
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DuckandCover
Proud Sheeple
Russia didn't send their good troops or use their good stuff.
The push toward Kiev was just a feint.....they weren't even trying to capture it.
The Russians are going slow on purpose.
After a while, this just sounds like making excuses for a poorly executed attack.
Because a long protacted conflict that is bleeding your military makes no sense...
Just because the side you are on does something doesn’t make it part of a brilliant plan, sometimes people do stupid stuff, its all part of the human thing.
Have you never before seen a fighter jet flying or sitting on the ground near a commercial passenger aircraft? They don't look like it but fighter jets are often huge (at least compared to something like a World War 2 fighter). What fools you is that the proportions are so nicely done that it looks like it should be smaller than it really is.
Why would you prolong a campaign that is costing you men and material? I hasve always been taught you end a fight as soon as possible. Less chance of something going wrong. Its a bad movie where the bad guy prolongs the fight with a lot chitchat etc and then out of nowhere the good guy gets out and wins. Reality is you put a bullet in the guys head and end the threat. If Putin could sweep thru the Ukraine and achieve his goal he could even better control the Wests economic and energy issues. You are now sitting on NATOs borders. You control the gas, the grain, the Black Sea. His weapons have been shown to defeat the Wests. More orders for him. He shows his strength and more countries openly support him or buck the sanctions. More pressure on the West. I see no good reason to prolong it.
WTSR
Veteran Member
What is your definition of a long conflict?
5 years or 10 years.
This thing is just getting started people, and the west is hoping for a quick exit.
Artificially Intelli
Senior Member
Interesting. I hadn't seen it from this perspective. The longer this drags out, the more the west crashes. Hmmmm…….
raven
TB Fanatic
Vietnam - Short War? - 10 years.
Russia/Afghanistan War - Short War? - 10 years.
Afghanistan - Short War? - 20years.
Syria - Short War? - 10 years.
Iraq - Short War? - 8 years.
The West would like Russia to conduct a short war. What does a short war look like?
Libya - 1986 War - 1 day.
Iraq - Gulf War - 1 year.
Libya - 2011 War - 7 months.
Why wouldn't Russia plan on this war to be a long war?
Wars are generally long.
By conducting the war in Eastern Ukraine, Russia has kept the Suppression of Air Defence capabilities of the West at bay.
You do not need to defeat an enemies capabilities if you can prevent them from using those capabilities.
A short war plays into the hands of the West.
The "idea" of the "short" war is not realistic.
Russia/Afghanistan War - Short War? - 10 years.
Afghanistan - Short War? - 20years.
Syria - Short War? - 10 years.
Iraq - Short War? - 8 years.
The West would like Russia to conduct a short war. What does a short war look like?
Libya - 1986 War - 1 day.
Iraq - Gulf War - 1 year.
Libya - 2011 War - 7 months.
Why wouldn't Russia plan on this war to be a long war?
Wars are generally long.
By conducting the war in Eastern Ukraine, Russia has kept the Suppression of Air Defence capabilities of the West at bay.
You do not need to defeat an enemies capabilities if you can prevent them from using those capabilities.
A short war plays into the hands of the West.
The "idea" of the "short" war is not realistic.
DuckandCover
Proud Sheeple
I believe Russia was planning this to work like their 1968 invasion of Czechoslovakia. That invasion was very quick and overwhelming, like it appeared the invasion of Ukraine would be. They even seized the airport and used it to bring in artillery and other military equipment. The invasion worked perfectly and they hit so quick there wasn't even much time for any resistance to respond.
The difference this time was:
1) Much stiffer resistance from the Ukrainians vs what the Czechs put up.
2) The Russian seizure of the airport in Ukraine was a disaster and they were beaten back.
With no quick victory, Russia is having to resort to the slow, "blast everything and wear them down" approach. Their numbers vs Ukraine's support that type of war, but it will be very costly for them. Even with a military victory in the conventional sense, there will almost certainly be guerilla warfare for years that will wear them down like what happened to them in Afghanistan.
In short, Russia messed up.
raven
TB Fanatic
In 1968, Czechoslovakia was one country of about 128,000 sq kilometers.
Ukraine is 605,000 sq kilometers.
In 1968, the population of Czechoslovakia was about 14 million.
The population of Ukraine is about 44 million.
Add to that, the Ukrainians had a full fledged army of over 200,000 that had been receiving NATO training and tech support for 7 years.
The idea that Russia planned to roll over Ukraine like Czechoslovakia is unrealistic.
Also consider you had to go back 50 years to find a comparison.
The Russians have been observing our combat operations in Libya, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Yemen, Somalia for the last 20 years. And while they may be taking a lot of casualties, they have managed to avoid our combat capabilities to avoid fighting the war on our terms.
They are fighting a different war on their terms. Underestimating them is to their advantage.
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SNOWSQUAW
Veteran Member
you forgot to add that Russia is fighting NATO / USA so the resistance was more than modeled, IMHO. IF this continues on (I think it will go longer but who knows how long) then the gloves come off and we are in a direct conflict with USSR and CCP. This is the main concern to me.
Live Updates: Ukrainians Aim to Isolate Russian Forces in Key City as Moscow’s Missiles Hit the South
Ukraine continued to target the main roads in and out of Kherson, the first and most important city captured by Russia. Ukraine hit a key bridge overnight, and Moscow moved to reinforce its defensive positions as Kyiv sets the stage for a broad counteroffensive.
Updated
July 27, 2022, 9:49 a.m.
56 minutes ago
Live Updates: Ukrainians Aim to Isolate Russian Forces in Key City as Moscow’s Missiles Hit the South
Ukraine continued to target the main roads in and out of Kherson, the first and most important city captured by Russia. Ukraine hit a key bridge overnight, and Moscow moved to reinforce its defensive positions as Kyiv sets the stage for a broad counteroffensive.
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ZaporizhzhiaMauricio Lima for The New York Times
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MoshchunRoman Pilipey/EPA, via Shutterstock
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BakhmutBulent Kilic/Agence France-Presse — Getty Images
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ChuhuivSergey Kozlov/EPA, via Shutterstock
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KharkivVyacheslav Madiyevskyy/Reuters
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ChuhuivNacho Doce/Reuters
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ObukhivRoman Pilipey/EPA, via Shutterstock
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Donetsk regionAnatolii Stepanov/Agence France-Presse — Getty Images
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LvivPavlo Palamarchuk/Reuters
Here’s what you need to know:
- Ukraine hits a key bridge in Kherson as Russia steps up missile strikes across the south.
- What happens if a steamroller runs out of steam? Experts see hints of exhaustion in Russia’s military.
- A joint center to monitor grain shipments from Ukraine opens in Istanbul.
- Russia cuts the flow of natural gas to Germany yet again.
Ukraine hits a key bridge in Kherson as Russia steps up missile strikes across the south.
Image
The Antonivsky bridge on Wednesday after it reportedly came under fire in the Russian-controlled city of Kherson, Ukraine.Credit...Alexander Ermochenko/Reuters
Explosions lit up the sky over the southern city of Kherson overnight, and as dawn broke on Wednesday it was clear that Ukrainian long-range missiles had once again found their target: a bridge that is critical in the Russian effort to resupply the forces charged with holding the port city.
At the same time, dozens of Russian missiles struck targets across the southern regions of Odesa and Mykolaiv, hitting port and transport infrastructure, two leisure centers, houses, a parking lot and two restaurants, according to Ukraine’s southern military command.
The Russian Ministry of Defense said its forces struck Ukrainian military strongholds, killing scores of soldiers, and other key Ukrainian infrastructure. The claims could not be verified. But it was clear that both armies were trying to limit their opponents’ logistical operations.
Ukrainian forces are under pressure to demonstrate to their Western allies that they cannot only mount a muscular defense but are capable of reclaiming lost land. And Kherson has emerged as a key battlefront as Ukrainian forces set the stage for a broad offensive to retake the region’s capital city.
The Ukrainian ministry of defense said its strikes on routes in and out of Kherson had created “an impossible dilemma” for the Russian forces: “Retreat or be annihilated.”
Moscow continues to move troops and military equipment in the direction of Kherson to reinforce its defensive positions, according to the Ukrainian military high command.
Ukraine targeted the Antonivsky bridge, which spans the Dnipro River, following up on two strikes last week in which its forces hit the bridge using a HIMARS truck-mounted, multiple-rocket launcher newly supplied by the United States. The overnight strike, reported by a spokeswoman for Ukraine’s southern military command, Natalia Humeniuk, punctured the road surface, according to a video released by the Ukrainian government, which said the span had been closed to traffic.
The bridge has been the main transit route for Russian supplies coming in from Crimea, which Moscow annexed in 2014, to Kherson, the first major city that Moscow seized after President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia launched his invasion five months ago. The targeting of the bridge is part of a broader effort to isolate Russian forces based west of the Dnipro river, which runs the length of Ukraine and divides the eastern and western halves of the nation.
Since long-range Western weapons systems started arriving en masse, Ukraine has pounded Russian ammunition depots and command and control center behind the front lines.
On Wednesday, the southern command said it took back two villages in the north of the Kherson region, Andriivka and Lozove, creeping closer to the city of Kherson.
Ms. Humeniuk said that retaking the villages put more key Russian positions within range of Ukrainian artillery.
Some villagers in the area cheered Ukraine’s growing counteroffensive: “It is good they liberated these villages but the one where my farm is still occupied,” said a farmer, Oleksandr Kyrychyshyn. Speaking by telephone, he said: “All my equipment, all my grain, all my petrol is there.” He said that the only civilians left in Andriivka were those too elderly or infirm to have left.
An adviser to Ukraine’s administration in Kherson, Serhiy Khlan, said that Russian forces are building a pontoon crossing over the Inhulets River in Darivka, northeast of the city of Kherson, to facilitate the transport of heavy equipment given damage to the main bridge.
The Russian effort to reinforce its positions in Kherson has been an ongoing process for months, according to Ukrainian officials. Oleksiy Gromov, the deputy chief of the Ukrainian military general staff, said last month that Russian forces are dismantling concrete irrigation structures around the Kherson region to build concealments for their heavy artillery from Ukrainian strikes.
“Much attention is paid to masking positions,” he said.
— Maria Varenikova and Matthew Mpoke Bigg
I think the Russians planned for a quick surrounding and surrender of Kiev and then concessions from that. I think they underestimated the Ukrainian military and NATOs response. I also think they overestimated their military capabilities in pulling off a quick deep blow. Russia and the Soviet militaries have always had logistics issues and I think it showed around Kiev. THey also didnt seem to have much coordinated air support. Now they are back to what they know. The grind. It will work eventually. The Ukrainians cant sustain the losses IMO and we arent supplying enough weapons to turn the tide. They would need NATO to get directly involved to have a shot at pushing the Russians out. I think NATO is content to feed in weapons and let the chewing up of both sides continue. If Russia's victory is inevitable we may as well make the as weak as possible when they get to NATOs doorstep.
Our combat capabilities havent come into play much. Our targeting and intel yes but actual combat? Not yet. A few howitzers and HIMARS arent much of a representation.
DuckandCover
Proud Sheeple
Lets be honest here, Russia is not fighting NATO. Sure, NATO is assisting Ukraine, but that isn't "fighting." If NATO fully committed to directly fighting Russia, one of two things would happen:
1) Russia's military in Ukraine would almost cease to exist in a matter of weeks, or
2) The world as we know it would almost cease to exist....(if a full-blown nuke exchange were to occur.)
In a conventional war, Russia currently would have no chance against NATO and even they know that. Strike a few blows against NATO, sure, but in no way could they hope of winning. Heck, look at the difference that even one relatively high-tech weapon (HIMARS) in very limited numbers with the least of the weaponry is making against the Russians. Imagine NATO, with hundreds of those and even better weapons, better trained forces would do to them. Most importantly, what do you think NATO's air forces would do against the Russians in addition to the ground weaponry? Remember that Russia is using alot of the same equipment that Iraq used in Gulf War 1! NATO countries absolutely routed Iraq and revealed that the equipment was no match. Even the generals in Russia were shocked at how inferior their equipment wound up being against NATO equipment. Also, NATO equipment has gotten much better since then.... Russia's is better in spots, but in very small numbers. They mostly use old stuff.
Short of nukes, Russia has hit Ukraine with their best shots and haven't exactly steamrolled them. I would say they are "winning" but not impressively. Against NATO....no chance.
CaryC
Has No Life - Lives on TB
For informational purposes:
The F-14 is 62 feet 9 inches long, with a spread wingspan of 64 feet and a swept wingspan of 38 feet. Its loaded weight is 61,000 pounds. The F-15 is 63 feet 9 inches long, with a wingspan of 42 feet 10 inches. Its loaded weight is 20,200 pounds.
Actually I believe they are fighting NATO/West and they are winning. The battle in Ukraine is just that a battle not the war. The real war is the war on the dollar and the West's economies. The dollar has been weakened and the Ruble has improved. The BRICS group is gaining ground and just by member nations have the population/economies to make them very viable. And they have broken the stranglehold that the west had over middle east.
colonel holman
Veteran Member
telephoto lens effect. It alters perspective
DuckandCover
Proud Sheeple
The dollar is at multi-year highs (see below). The ruble, after an initial dip, also rallied after the start of the invasion.
