CORONA Main Coronavirus thread

Slydersan

Veteran Member
If you live in the country and have deliveries made you can just leave it outside for a several days.

Any medical types please chime in - but would putting mail/packages in a greenhouse for a few days help kill the virus??? High heat and direct sunlight... I'm thinking this would be better than just sitting on a porch or a table or something. That of course depends on what is IN the package - certain things don't like high heat.
 

bw

Fringe Ranger
I am beginning to believe the same thing. My only question is why hasn't it taken a better hold in other places.... we are missing something.....

I suspect it's starting to hit here, but is being lost in the noise of seasonal flu. It'll probably take a couple weeks to be clearly seen. We have the incubation period, and then we have the milder symptoms until around day 9, if I recall right. So if a wad of infections was imported from China two weeks ago, we're still maybe a week from seeing enough serious complications here for doctors to catch on that it's the plague. Not that they all came in one bunch, but that there's at least some delay as it seeds into a fresh population.
 

Slydersan

Veteran Member
I suspect it's starting to hit here, but is being lost in the noise of seasonal flu. It'll probably take a couple weeks to be clearly seen. We have the incubation period, and then we have the milder symptoms until around day 9, if I recall right. So if a wad of infections was imported from China two weeks ago, we're still maybe a week from seeing enough serious complications here for doctors to catch on that it's the plague. Not that they all came in one bunch, but that there's at least some delay as it seeds into a fresh population.

I know the Cleveland, OH area is getting hit hard by "the flu". A bunch of family members have/had it. High temperatures (like 102F), coughing up TONS of mucous, etc. But everyone is just assuming it is the normal seasonal flu and not going to the Dr, emergency room, etc. They are just treating at home and keeping kids at home for the absolute minimal time possible. I believe kids have to be fever free - without meds - for 24 hrs before being allowed back to school.... on the honor system of course... :eye: So who knows what it really is/could be.
 

rondaben

Veteran Member
I don't understand a thing you write but it sure is nice having you here...

Ha! Simplest terms...Your lungs quit providing enough oxygen to the blood. Your organs don't get enough oxygen to survive so they start to die--your kidneys included. With intervention we can improve that somewhat. The damage to the kidneys is however done. They can repair themselves to a limited degree but it takes time and in the interim it may take dialysis to keep you kicking. It ain't good when your kidneys shut down.
 

rondaben

Veteran Member
If someone could invent a bicycle-powered bellows pump type of thingy, you could ventilate someone a lot longer than you could squeeze a bag.

The problem with any of them is the lack of control that is required. I agree that for short term it would prevent fatige but the way a vent actually works is impressive. You control both the volume/pressure, rate that the lungs fill or are allowed to deflate, how much pressure stays in to keep the small airsacs open, and of course the oxygen content. All of that of course occurs after the patient is intubated--and that can be rather difficult and requires some skill to do correctly as well as the right equipment.

I like the way you think and problem solve however!
 

Greybeard7

Veteran Member
I suspect it's starting to hit here, but is being lost in the noise of seasonal flu. It'll probably take a couple weeks to be clearly seen. We have the incubation period, and then we have the milder symptoms until around day 9, if I recall right. So if a wad of infections was imported from China two weeks ago, we're still maybe a week from seeing enough serious complications here for doctors to catch on that it's the plague. Not that they all came in one bunch, but that there's at least some delay as it seeds into a fresh population.

That has been one of my concerns. If you look at the CDC weekly influenza map it is wide spread across the US.
Here is the CDC site with the weekly flu map as of Feb 1st:

With so much flu going around, how will the general populace be able to differentiate between seasonal flu and nCoV.
And if the gen pop figures it out, how much of a flood of seasonal flu cases will go to the doctor for fear of having nCoV.
Then doctors will have to stop testing for it because of a flood of panicked patients and a shortage of test kits.

We may find our early numbers aren't much better than China's if the herd panics.
 

rondaben

Veteran Member
And the pulmonologists and the RT's in the hospitals are going to be BUSY. Nephrologists as well, unfortunately. Criteria for who is worthy for kidney and lung transplants--who gets on the waiting list for an organ--may change. Also, a transplant surgeon can list for a given patient what organs are or are not acceptable.

For example, maybe we don't want a lung from a chain smoker, or that liver from a alcoholic. So I am expecting that although more organs may become available due to this, that you won't want a kidney or lung from someone with novel Corona virus... I'll be starting to train respiratory therapists for the next wave of hospital starting next week, expect to have some interesting discussions.

100% correct. Regardless if this is a worldwide calamity this virus will change the world as we know it. To me, it is the same feeling I had watching the airliners hit the world trade center. You just knew.
 

bw

Fringe Ranger
I keep telling my family about this. Told them we don't know everything yet, and I think the consensus is I should get back to them when we know everything. Yeah, good luck with that.
 

rondaben

Veteran Member
Yes. This. The bleach solution "recipe" to use is waaaaaay the hell back on this thread and probably impossible to find, which is why the thread at this point is nearly impossible to be of any value. Do a search - CDC should have it.

At my former employment, before any container from the outside was allowed into the facility "clean" area, it was sprayed down with that very Na hypochlorite sol'n and allowed to AIR DRY. I know it worked. Yes, on porous materials like cardboard, too. I was the lab rat who was tasked with culturing the surfaces to find out.

Here you go.
  • For stainless steel, food/mouth contact items: 1 tablespoon of chlorine bleach in 1 gallon of water.
  • For non-porous surfaces such as tile floors, counter-tops, sinks, etc.: one-third (1/3) cup of chlorine bleach in 1 gallon of water.
  • For porous surfaces such as wooden floors: one and two-thirds (1 2/3) cups of chlorine bleach in 1 gallon of water.
Leave the bleach solution on the surface for 10 to 20 minutes, and then rinse the area well with clean water. After the disinfection process is complete, close off the area, if possible, for at least one hour. If there are windows, air out the area.
 

rondaben

Veteran Member
Any medical types please chime in - but would putting mail/packages in a greenhouse for a few days help kill the virus??? High heat and direct sunlight... I'm thinking this would be better than just sitting on a porch or a table or something. That of course depends on what is IN the package - certain things don't like high heat.

Last I heard the virus starts to degrade somewhat on surfaces at 30 degrees C (86 F). Higher humidity and UV from sunlight would boost that most likely. That is just a personal guess, not based on anything scientific.
 

Trivium Pursuit

Has No Life - Lives on TB
War Room Pandemic Ep 16 (Steve Bannon)
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLS1uKAecKU
1:03:13 min
I have been hearing the name Steve Bannon mentioned a few times here and also this War Room broadcast. I finally decided to listen to this one. Mightily impressed with the experts he had on. An Indian, a Chinese, and an American gentleman, each of whom are experts in their field and gifted with excellent analysis and verbal presentation skills. Number one take away I had from this video is that China also is pretty much the world's source of agricultural chemicals. Hadn't even thought about how that may play out. As one of them stressed a couple of times, food security is health security. This one is definitely worth a listen.
 

Melodi

Disaster Cat
A Crow? you mean like in "The Stand"?
Or Ravens, Ravens in Norse tradition are the messengers of Odin: God of Death (also the name of Nightwolf's PhD dissertation).

I covered the "CORVID" virus version in The Unexplained room a couple of days ago - check there for woo-updates
 

jed turtle

a brother in the Lord
Thanks Mark,
before this I was doing pretty well in terms of keeping my acquaintance with this thread framed in the context of merely ”being informed”. I think your post here just miraculously transformed it into “emotionally damaged” and “psychologically paralyzed”. Hopefully only temporarily, but I can’t tell yet... feels like the last booster rocket just flamed out, my capsule has just barely reached orbit, and I am now officially cut off from re-supply from earth till Houston gives the “all clear” signal in, what?, maybe 3 months to a year?

Sigh… I went grocery shopping late last night (lower foot traffic equals lower microbial load, right?) and had a couple of teachable moments regarding the potential for an epidemic:

1) I decided to wear a pair of regular off-white nitrile gloves while out and about, so I could perform hygiene without destroying my skin. Off to Costco I went. I grabbed the usual bi-weekly load of stuff, managed to find a short check-out line, and thought I was out of there without incident. Until… The checker handed my card back to me and I noticed the color of my palms and fingers: they had a more-than-just faint yellow tinge to them. The kind of yellow, with a hint of brown, that one would associate with sinus infections and bile – a “Human” yellow. My left hand wasn’t remotely as stained, as I had been holding my phone (grocery list) with it from pretty much the moment I entered. The right hand was steering and manipulating items.

It’s Costco: all the items I grabbed were enclosed in plastic, so it wasn’t a product “bleeding” onto the glove. I’m guessing it was the cart handle, and the various freezer handles. YUCK. When I got out to the car, I grabbed a couple of Lysol wipes and “washed” my hands with them, methodically. The gunk came off on the wipes. YUCK. I “washed” again… That disinfectant smell is glorious.

TEACHABLE MOMENT: The public is NASTY. I don’t know how many years of collected biofilm resides on those carts, and handles, but YUCK, that was disgusting. Regardless of the average level of education (this is Tech country), your fellow citizens are NASTY, and they will merrily embark upon a jihad of mindless contamination and infection.

2) I also saw a fat blue-haired Millennial woman with her Soy Boy in tow, hacking-up her lungs with directionless abandon - up one aisle and down another. A deep, muddy, body-wrenching cough... Thanks lady. The rest of us are so glad you decided to share your nasty-ass lung plague with the rest of society. You get a gold star. As I left, I could hear her coughing from across the store.

TEACHABLE MOMENT: Americans will NOT wear masks until it is too late, if at all. And, they will continue to venture out into public for as long as they are able to shuffle along. Even if they are minutes away from dropping dead, there are simply too many Twinkies left to eat, and they need their comfort food.

NOT an encouraging night.
 
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Trivium Pursuit

Has No Life - Lives on TB
100% correct. Regardless if this is a worldwide calamity this virus will change the world as we know it. To me, it is the same feeling I had watching the airliners hit the world trade center. You just knew.
Quite an accurate analogy. Along with one that was used on the Steve Bannon show. Where the Indian gentleman several times referred to it as a "Biological Chernobyl". I almost think I'd stretch to call it a Biological Fukushima. Because when Fukushima happened, the Russians offered their assistance on day one, and the Japanese said no, we've got this. In The same way, we offered assistance to the Chinese early on and were rebuffed.
 

EMICT

Veteran Member
.....
That has been one of my concerns. If you look at the CDC weekly influenza map it is wide spread across the US.
Here is the CDC site with the weekly flu map as of Feb 1st:

With so much flu going around, how will the general populace be able to differentiate between seasonal flu and nCoV.
And if the gen pop figures it out, how much of a flood of seasonal flu cases will go to the doctor for fear of having nCoV.
Then doctors will have to stop testing for it because of a flood of panicked patients and a shortage of test kits.

We may find our early numbers aren't much better than China's if the herd panics.

The general populace probably will not be able to differentiate. It will not be until enough patients begin showing up at definitive care facilities with symptoms and 'failing' tests for influenza that we will start seeing 'pockets' of nCov infection around the US.

Don't be surprised if there are special sites set up for treatment and evaluation here in the US before this is over. One of the first signs that this might occur is the deployment of the DMAT team to Miramar. For those who are more WOO oriented... Miramar is your 1st FEMA camp in this battle against the virus.
 

Troke

On TB every waking moment
Last I heard the virus starts to degrade somewhat on surfaces at 30 degrees C (86 F). Higher humidity and UV from sunlight would boost that most likely. That is just a personal guess, not based on anything scientific.
Oh Good Grief! Put the stuff in a black Hefty plastic trash big, put it in the sun for a couple hours and that will do it.
 
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Hfcomms

EN66iq
I am beginning to believe the same thing. My only question is why hasn't it taken a better hold in other places.... we are missing something.....

Easy....

Western sanitation the way I see it. And I would include Japan in that as well. Although the virus is transmissible through fomites (surface contamination), droplets and airborne its also shed thru the fecal oral route. With the exception of Japan and perhaps some others they have squat toilets and poor hygiene. Many of them don’t use toilet paper but wipe with their hands. In addition soap and water washing after defecating is rare.

I’m thinking that although it’s transmissible through other vectors the virus load is less and your less likely to catch the virus thru the other routes. China has relatively poor hygiene especially among the older people and it’s hard to change life long habits. Therefore the older people have higher incidence of illness and add that to a weaker immune system that comes with age.

We are not seeing the spread of disease in other countries like China has experienced and the biggest difference between China and the rest of us is hygiene habits. I surmise the virus load in fecal is more pronounced than other routes.
 

Trivium Pursuit

Has No Life - Lives on TB
I still think that the ACE 2 cells being 5 times more prevalent in the Chinese race will be the deciding fact in how this spreads and the severity of the disease.
Along with the fact of high pollution, open latrines and spitting in the streets. I view these 3 is such accelerants that I don't think an R0 figure calculated in China is valid for the First World
I want to see what it's going to be in Germany. That I think is what we're going to experience.
 

Jubilee on Earth

Veteran Member
And only two deaths worldwide outside of China.

Something still sounds fishy.

It actually doesn’t. Singapore and Hong Kong are about where China was a month ago. Roughly 50-70 cases, and a couple of deaths. Those numbers are aligned with what mainland reportedly had in mid-January.

Give it a month, and let’s see where those countries and the numbers are.

Edited to add: I suspect we’re a few weeks behind Honk Kong and Singapore. I bet we’ll see 50-60 cases and a death or two by the beginning of March. We shall see...
 
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Terrwyn

Veteran Member
For your fish that are sick I've found walmartpetrx.com to have good pricing/selection.
[/QU
I am not a medical professional but I have a lot of experience with serious infections this past year and I would like to say Amox would not have worked on any of them. So keep that in mind and don't count on it too much.
 

Trivium Pursuit

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Here you go.
  • For stainless steel, food/mouth contact items: 1 tablespoon of chlorine bleach in 1 gallon of water.
  • For non-porous surfaces such as tile floors, counter-tops, sinks, etc.: one-third (1/3) cup of chlorine bleach in 1 gallon of water.
  • For porous surfaces such as wooden floors: one and two-thirds (1 2/3) cups of chlorine bleach in 1 gallon of water.
Leave the bleach solution on the surface for 10 to 20 minutes, and then rinse the area well with clean water. After the disinfection process is complete, close off the area, if possible, for at least one hour. If there are windows, air out the area.
You mentioned food contact items. Will the heat and soap of a dishwashing machine be considered sufficient?
 

bw

Fringe Ranger
The general populace probably will not be able to differentiate. It will not be until enough patients begin showing up at definitive care facilities with symptoms and 'failing' tests for influenza that we will start seeing 'pockets' of nCov infection around the US.

Most people get the flu because they are careless about personal protection and crowd exposure. Some get the flu in spite of being fastidious about such things. If you're fastidious or even obsessive about it, and you appear to be getting the flu, it might be more likely that you've got the nCov. If test kits are in short supply, would a doctor even listen to you if you said this? Seems doubtful.
 

ChicagoMan74

ULTRA MAGA
I still think that the ACE 2 cells being 5 times more prevalent in the Chinese race will be the deciding fact in how this spreads and the severity of the disease.
Its funny how it is looking that way ain't it? I mean, this thing has been in the wild since late December? And lets be honest...there has been PLENTY of regular activity (people using public transportation/people gathering at large events/etc.) in the U.S. (and everywhere ELSE besides China) annnnnnnnnd....its STILL not even close to taking off as is it is in China. It seriously looks like an accidental release of something from that level 4 Bio facility in Wuhan with the characteristics you describe...not a full blown killer bio weapon, but perhaps some kind of control or prototype for a vaccine/booster or something else targeted to an "asian" genome. If there was any question to the case/mortality numbers here in the U.S. that went against the official number...there would be plenty of leaks to the contrary...the U.S. ISN'T China in this regard. And that simply hasn't happened either. I'll keep my head up and keep vigilant...but facts are what they are.
 

northern watch

TB Fanatic
Stu Woo‏Verified account @stuwoo 1h1 hour ago

A new way of counting coronavirus infections results in another jump: China reports 5,000 new cases, bringing the total above 63,000. The virus isn’t spreading faster. China was counting differently before and these are probably more accurate figures.
 

rondaben

Veteran Member
.....

The general populace probably will not be able to differentiate. It will not be until enough patients begin showing up at definitive care facilities with symptoms and 'failing' tests for influenza that we will start seeing 'pockets' of nCov infection around the US.

Don't be surprised if there are special sites set up for treatment and evaluation here in the US before this is over. One of the first signs that this might occur is the deployment of the DMAT team to Miramar. For those who are more WOO oriented... Miramar is your 1st FEMA camp in this battle against the virus.

Here is the biggest problem overall with containing it once it is "in the wild".

We can't test for it. Only the CDC and some of the states have the ability to do that. It is a 24 hr. turnaround at the minimum--and as suspected cases increase that will also increase. Testing submission is going to be limited to only those cases that have a compelling history and are inching closer to ARDS before they are even tested.

Practically that means that the mild cases are going to come in, hack in the ER for 2-6 hours because they are not of a high enough acuity to be seen immediately, then either go home in frustration or track it back into the treatment rooms. Medical staff are not wearing masks--they were all mandated to get a flu shot so they wouldn't have to wear a mask--so they too are now infected. We will run a flu screen on them and it will come back negative. A few of the larger hospitals will have the ability to run a respiratory PCR panel on them, but those too will come back negative. That will be it: they will be given a breathing treatment or 2, discharged with a nebulizer and some albuterol (or a puffer) and told to come back if it gets worse. Multiply that scenario a hundred fold a day for a smaller ER and you begin to see the problem with contamination, triage, treatment, and isolation.

We dont' have good information or a way to rapidly screen patients for Covid-19. Until then, its just another respiratory bug that we don't identify, that we treat empirically, and that we send home assuming that they will get better.
 
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northern watch

TB Fanatic
Eric Feigl-Ding‏ @DrEricDing 1h1 hour ago

Eric Feigl-Ding Retweeted The New York Times

1700+
1f9a0.png
infected medical workers is extremely frustrating. Just a few weeks ago, infected healthcare workers was just 14. The brave doctors and nurses fighting in the frontlines, being cut down, are the greatest heros of this epidemic
✊
. #SARSCoV2 #COVID19
 

EMICT

Veteran Member
Most people get the flu because they are careless about personal protection and crowd exposure. Some get the flu in spite of being fastidious about such things. If you're fastidious or even obsessive about it, and you appear to be getting the flu, it might be more likely that you've got the nCov. If test kits are in short supply, would a doctor even listen to you if you said this? Seems doubtful.

If you are fastidious or even obsessive about getting the flu, your likelihood of contacting nCov would be about the same.
 

SusieSunshine

Veteran Member
From our local Paper:

KSAT.Com



San Antonio couple stuck overseas amid coronavirus outbreak
Diamond Princess cruise ship has been docked at Yokohama Harbor in Japan where passengers are quarantined

More 3,000 passengers had boarded the cruise ship, but close to 200 passengers were taken off after they contracted the virus.
Don said passengers are required to wear a mask if they leave their cabin, and they must stay six feet apart. He said he and his wife have stayed in their cabin, where crew members have provided food and updates.
“They didn’t cause this. It’s just something that happened, but they’re dealing with it very well,” Don said.
SA coronavirus patient being treated at Methodist Hospital Texsan, officials say
The 14-day quarantine is expected to end on Feb. 19, but Don said he is not sure that will be the case.
 

northern watch

TB Fanatic
Global Oil Demand Shrinks, Hit by Coronavirus, IEA Says; China accounted for more than three-quarters of global oil demand growth in 2019, energy watchdog says
Thursday, February 13, 2020, 5:07 PM ET
By David Hodari
Wall Street Journal

LONDON—Global oil demand is expected to fall in the first three months of the year—the first quarterly drop in more than a decade—according to a closely watched forecast from the International Energy Agency , which blamed a likely economic slowdown in China related to the novel coronavirus outbreak there.

The IEA also slashed its oil demand growth forecast for 2020 by 365,000 barrels a day, a cut of 30% to its previous forecast made in January. The IEA warned of a drop in oil demand this quarter of 435,000 barrels a day, compared with a year ago. That would represent the first quarterly drop in demand since the height of the financial crisis.

Brent crude, the global gauge of oil prices, rose 1% to $56.34 a barrel Thursday but is still 18% below a peak hit early last month. U.S. crude oil added 0.5% to $51.42 a barrel and has also tumbled in recent weeks.

The IEA's cut to its forecast demand growth was significantly larger than the one announced Wednesday by the Organization of the Petroleum Exporting Countries , which reduced its estimate by 230,000 barrels a day.

"The consequences of [the virus] for global oil demand will be significant," the IEA said in its report. It said "there is already a major slowdown in oil consumption and the wider economy in China."

The Paris-based energy watchdog said China accounted for more than three-quarters of global oil demand growth in 2019, and its oil demand has more than doubled since the outbreak of the SARS virus in 2003. "There is little doubt that the virus will have a larger impact on the economy and oil demand than did SARS," the IEA said.

Economists have lowered their forecasts for Chinese economic growth since the city of Wuhan was sealed off on January 23, and it became clear that factories and other businesses would suffer a loss of output as officials scrambled to contain the spread of the virus.

Assuming that and other lockdowns are lifted in April, most economists expect the damage to Chinese growth to be limited, with gross domestic product likely to be around 3% to 4% higher than a year earlier in the first three months of the year. Growth had previously been forecast at 5%, although economists expect much of that lost output to be recouped as the year advances, with only a limited impact on the global economy. Releasing new forecasts Thursday, the European Commission said it expects to see "relatively limited global spillovers."

Weaker forecasts for oil demand come in the wake of double-digit-percentage drops in oil prices so far this year, with the spread of the pathogen forcing border closures, flight cancellations, and other travel restrictions across China.

The IEA reported that Chinese jet-fuel demand will fall 14% below last month's forecast for 2020's first quarter, while the country's diesel and gasoline demand figures would fall 12% and 13% below last month's forecasts, respectively.

Reduced demand as a result of the coronavirus will also sting global refiners, the agency said, reducing its global refinery runs forecast for 2020 to 700,000 barrels a day. New bunker fuel regulations stipulated by the International Maritime Organization boosted sweet crude refinery margins, though.

The coronavirus has put oil demand in the red for the first time since the height of the financial crisis. What other implications does it hold for the Chinese and global economies? Join the conversation below.

Elsewhere in its report, the IEA noted an 800,000 barrel-a-day decline in global oil supply, some 710,000 barrels of which appeared to be accounted for by OPEC . In December, OPEC agreed with its allies to deepen production cuts by 500,000 barrels to 1.7 million barrels a day until the end of March.

The United Arab Emirates was responsible for 300,000 barrels a day of that reduction, the IEA said. It said production in Libya—strained by blockades amid the latest developments in its near-decade-long civil war—dropped by 360,000 barrels a day.

Some OPEC nations have attempted to bring forward the meeting scheduled for early March between the cartel and its allies, known as OPEC+. The organization's technical committee last week recommended deepening and extending current cuts, but negotiations were inconclusive and Russia continues to mull the suggestions.

Had the coronavirus not hit global demand, OPEC might have succeeded in balancing the oil market this year, the IEA said. The bloc's cuts, now in their fourth year, were implemented to counteract rising non-OPEC production growth which the IEA says is now tailing off.

The IEA held its 2020 non-OPEC production growth forecast at 2.1 million barrels a day and while U.S. growth will slow, that drop off will be partly mitigated by Norway, Brazil, Canada and Guyana.

Paul Hannon contributed to this article

Write to David Hodari at David.Hodari@dowjones.com


Global Oil Demand Shrinks, Hit by Coronavirus, IEA Says
 
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