ALERT RUSSIA INVADES UKRAINE - Consolidated Thread

April 12, 2024

Russia Expects 'Unconditional Capitulation' Of Kiev Regime​


During yesterday's UN Security Council meeting Vasily Nebenzya, the Permanent Representative of Russia to the United Nations, said:


"This is how it will go down in history - as an inhuman and hateful regime of terrorists and Nazis who betrayed the interest of their people and sacrificed it for Western money and for Zelenski and his closest circle.
In these conditions, attempts by the head of the Kiev regime to promote his formula and convene summits in support of the Kiev regime cause only confusion.
Very soon the only topic for any international meetings on Ukraine will be the unconditional capitulation of the Kiev regime.
I advise you all to prepare for this in advance."

Posted by b at 7:42 UTC | Comments (54)

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wait-n-see

Veteran Member

snip
The day starts with a massive Russian missile strike that has wiped out another chunk of the remaining Ukrainian energy capacity. It’s now confirmed that Russia is hitting precisely the turbine rooms causing long-lasting, if not permanent, damage.


Here’s Ukraine’s own Centernergo energy concern declaring it to be the worst day in their history, as the Trypil Thermal Power Plant in the Kiev region was wiped out:




Here’s a before and after:

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https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F213cf575-a023-42ec-ab7e-d8cde4d882b9_900x1200.jpeg


The regime apologists are in conniptions over this:







The Kharkov plant and several others were struck as well. Full report:



It’s difficult to truly estimate how catastrophic the situation is becoming because every ‘expert’s’ opinion seems to differ, and many were disappointed with last year’s energy grid strikes. However, one thing that can be objectively said is Russia has demonstrably been hitting engine rooms, as we’ve seen in actual video from the Dnipro HES hydroelectric station. In the Centernergo note above, they also admit a ‘large fire’ in the ‘turbine workshop’.

And by the way, for those wondering why Russia didn’t begin such a devastating campaign in winter, here’s what Putin is alleged to have told Lukashenko at their soiree today:


If only Netanyahu had 0.01% the compassion.

Now that things are heating up in this way, Ukraine is in a froth over those Patriot systems:


In fact, Bild’s Roepcke appears to claim that Ukraine has completely run out of the flagship AD missiles:


Update:


Unfortunately, here’s Germany’s Annalena Baerbock’s response:


Patriot reserves exhausted – German FM
If you want to see how truly desperate the situation has gotten, get a load of this unhinged rant by EU lunatic Guy Verhofstadt:


During all these urgent calls for new Patriots to be sent has anyone bothered to ask where the previously delivered Patriots have gone, by any chance? We were told they were totally unscratched after stopping all those Kinzhals. It seems perhaps that wasn’t entirely accurate.

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But here’s where it starts getting interesting. What began as mere improbable rumor weeks ago is slowly starting to spin into a common thread of something going on in the Kharkov direction. My readers know I’m very open and honest about these things—when something feels speculative and merely ‘rumor’-based, I readily say so, as I hate clickbait and groundless rumorbait just as much as you do.

But when a certain critical mass of rumors and information is reached, sometimes our ears perk up and we’re forced to pay attention. Kharkov is a particularly sore spot in this regard merely because we’ve heard rumors for so long about all the possible “big arrow” offensives that could come down from the north. However, we must objectively admit that Russia has never gone after the Ukrainian energy infrastructure with as much commitment as is happening now.

So, to dress the table, here’s head of the Kharkov administration announcing they’ve made their decision on evacuating nearly 50 settlements and villages in the north Kharkov region close to the Russian border:




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Russia appears to know something—here’s UN rep Nebenzya’s latest statement to the committee:




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A few other interesting adjacent items:

U.S. Congressmen appeared to admit that the U.S. has thus far spent a mindblowing $300 billion on Ukraine since 2014:


The rest of the exchange is fascinating too, particularly the admission of 12 CIA bases in Ukraine.

And on the note of congressional antics, a big uproar ensued in the Ukrainian commentariat after it was finally revealed definitively by Biden’s administration that they apparently do not support Ukraine hitting Russia’s oil and gas infrastructure due to the fear of affecting “global energy markets”:


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And speaking of corrupt congresses, the Ukrainian one reportedly finally approved a revamped mobilization bill to much furor and tooth-gnashing:

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Just as the Lancet was the star of last year’s show, it seems now the glide-bomb has moved into the spotlight. The reason is simple: Ukraine hardly uses armor or vehicles anymore, given that they’ve bunkered up and gone fully on the defensive. Thus there’s not much for Lancets to do at the moment. But glide-bombs are precisely the remedy for Ukraine’s defensive, trench-heavy posture, as they shred trenches and cave them in even from non-direct impacts. And given Ukraine’s frontline air defense depletion, Russian fighter-bombers are able to operate with full impunity, launching the glide-bombs at any and all times and directions.

I wrote this on X, but I’ll say it here again as a final point. Now that Russia is mass-producing heavy glide-bombs, there is almost no possible way for Ukraine to hold ground. Only in places like Avdeevka, with massive fortified underground structures, were they able to withstand the onslaught. But nearly everywhere else that’s left, such as Chasov-Yar now, glide-bombs will wreck top-ground fortifications and trenches, crumpling them even from some distance away. Ukrainians have reported that the Fab-500 rips doors off hinges from 1km away. There is simply no way to hold trenches when the Fabs start arriving on top of them. And as of this writing, there’s said to be a massive Kab/Fab assault on Chasov Yar ongoing. Here’s what it looks like over the city:

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even more omitted from this post, however illuminating video at end of sitrep...
Lastly, for those interested, here’s an illuminating new episode from Uralvagonzavod’s famed 130th workshop now mass producing the T-90M ‘Proryv’ (“Breakthrough”) tanks.




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Another one of those "you got to go to the source link to read it all" posts! You miss so much by only reading the post.
 

wait-n-see

Veteran Member

Interesting, even the pro-ukraine sites are starting to admit how false the claimed losses for Russia are, at least in the air, even though the narrative for extensive Russia troop lose is hard to give up.

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US Commander Reveals 90% Of Russian Air Fleet “Intact” Despite Ukrainian Claims Of “Heavy Losses”​

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivSBU4DvIC8

Run time - 6:15
Apr 12, 2024

A top US commander in Europe told Congress the Russian Air Force has lost only a tenth of its fleet over the two years of fighting in Ukraine. As per NATO’s* Supreme Allied Commander, Army Gen Christopher G Cavoli, many of Russia’s military capabilities are still intact, Air and Space Forces Magazine reported. “We do not see significant losses, especially their long-range and strategic aviation fleets,” said Cavoli during a House Armed Services Committee hearing. This could be a big blow to Ukraine, which claims that it regularly causes significant damage to the Russian Aerospace Forces. Watch the video to find out more.

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A perfect example of the continued fakes losses being claimed is the reported strike at the end of the above vid.

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Messages about the defeat of the aircraft of the Air Force of the Russian Federation at three airfields turned out to be fake

April 8th
Réseau International

On the night of April 5, the Ukrainian terrorist state attempted to fire on the air bases of the Russian armed forces in Morozovsk (Rostov region), Engels (Saratov region) and Yeysk (Krasnodar Territory) using kamikaze drones. The targets of the attacks were Russian aircraft.

Immediately afterwards, Ukrainian paramilitaries reported that the attack was carried out by attack drones of the Security Service of Ukraine and the Main Intelligence Directorate. They also posted a satellite image of the Morozovsk airfield, taken on April 4 by a spacecraft from the American company Planet Labs. Moreover, literally in unison, they claimed that in this installation “at least 6 Su-27 or Su-34 aircraft were destroyed and 8 were damaged, and around 20 other Russian soldiers were killed or injured". But it turned out to be a hoax.




The Russian Defense Ministry reported that there had indeed been an attempted air attack on the Morozovsk airfield. But it was successfully repelled – more than 40 enemy drones were shot down. The governor of the Rostov region, Vasily Golubev, wrote on his Telegram channel that not far from the airfield, due to the detonation of an explosive device on one of the fallen drones, 8 people were injured.

«They carried out investigative actions at the drone crash site. The injured were taken to the district hospital, where they are receiving medical treatment. Additional medical teams were sent to Morozovsk. Investigative measures are underway"Golubev explained.

On April 6, a control image of the Morozovsk airfield, quickly taken by Planet Labs, appeared on the Web. There are two traces of blackouts on the edges of the object, where there was no plane. Thus, the aircraft of the Russian Aerospace Forces remained intact.

A similar situation was observed with the Engels airfield. However, 4 times fewer enemy kamikaze drones flew there. Ukrainian resources reported that 3 Tu-95MS strategic bombers were destroyed. The Russian Defense Ministry assured that all flying drones had been shot down. At the same time, in the images that appeared, taken by Planet Labs on April 5 after the information about the raids carried out, there are no traces of arrivals.

The situation is similar with the Yeysk airfield. The Ukrainians said they hit something. The Russian Defense Ministry said anything flying toward the object was “stranded” or drowned in the Sea of Azov. There are also no traces of arrivals in the Planet Labs images.










The situation is similar for the Yeysk airfield. The Ukrainians said they hit something. The Russian Defense Ministry said anything flying toward the site was “grounded” or sunk in the Sea of Azov. Planet Labs images also show no trace of the arrivals.


image-41.png




It is not difficult to guess that all the information spread by the Ukrainian public turned out to be a bunch of fakes.
 
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von Koehler

Has No Life - Lives on TB
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This post from Helmer's Dancing with Bears website is from April 1, 2024. As a result of the recent Russian precision strikes the infrastructure is now in much, much worse shape.


HOW THE ELECTRIC WAR IS REDRAWING THE UKRAINE MAP – IN BLACK


webpc-passthru.php

by John Helmer, Moscow
@bears_with

The electric war, which in its first phase commenced in September 2022, has now entered its second and final phase – final, that is, for the Ukraine.

This is strategic; war has never been fought like this in Europe. The US and NATO general staffs and politicians have been taken by complete surprise. “The Ukrainians are building Maginot and Siegfried lines according to the instructions of their foreign advisers,” according to a Moscow analyst, “as if the Russian offensive will be men, artillery and tanks running across the landscape towards Kiev. But they won’t have to. The offensive against Ukrainian electricity cannot be stopped at these lines.”

Without effective defense for its power generating plants, distribution hubs, and grid lines, the Kiev regime’s power is being stopped across the country; the major Novorussian cities in the east – Odessa, Kharkov, Dniepropetrovsk – are being blacked out and their populations forced to evacuate; the warmaking resupplies of the NATO allies are being cut off at borders which are now exposed to reversal of electricity surges threatening the plants and grids of southern Poland, Romania and Moldova. Even European and American money for President Vladimir Zelensky’s regime needs electricity to move.

“The Russian General Staff is thinking electrically,” comments a NATO veteran and expert in applying electrical engineering to war. “The way the strikes are unfolding causes the Ukrainians to perform at lot of switching. Anyone who knows anything about high-voltage switching understands that the more it’s done, the greater the likelihood there is of some kind of fault occurring, including surges or transients, occurring. So, leaving enough power on today so the Ukrainians can throw switches tomorrow may be part of the plan.”

“Even if the French/NATO plan a deployment in the Ukraine, what will they be deploying to?” the military engineer adds. “If the current Russian plan of attack is causing swings of 300+ volts, it’s not even safe to plug in a cell phone. We can safely assume that all manner of appliances and other expensive electrical or electronic equipment has been destroyed in the affected areas. Indeed, even if the power engineers manage to get the power back on, millions of light fixtures, especially the electronic/LED variety, are burned out. Diagnostic equipment (medical and technical), process instruments, programmable logic controllers, power supplies, inverters, frequency drives, bank machines, computerized checkout, refrigeration equipment, are burned up”

“Who knows what’s happening there. It must be chaos, and if it isn’t, it will be soon.”

The Russian General Staff doesn’t telegraph its punches. The daily Ministry of Defense operations briefing – blocked for many US and allied audiences – concentrates on the five combat groups, Western, Southern, Eastern, Centre, and Dniepr; and their operational directions along the Donbass line of contact; at present, they are Kupyansk, Donetsk, Avdeyevka, South Donetsk, and Kherson.

Last Friday, for example, the briefing began almost nonchalantly: “Tonight [March 29], the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation launched a group strike with high-precision long-range air, sea and land-based weapons, including aeroballistic hypersonic Kinzhal missiles, as well as unmanned aerial vehicles, at energy facilities and air defence of the Armed Forces of Ukraine. The objectives of the strike have been achieved. All objects are affected.”

The next day, March 30, petroleum and fuel oil storages, which have been dispersed to shield them from attack and are necessary to power the emergency generators, were destroyed in the Poltava region. On Sunday, March 31, the targeting of gas storage and gas production around Lvov was also reported by the Defense Ministry in Moscow. “The Russian Aerospace Forces carried out a group strike with high-precision weapons on the facilities of energy infrastructure and the gas-producing industry of Ukraine. As a result of the strike, the work of the defense industry enterprises for the manufacture and repair of weapons, military equipment and ammunition was disrupted. All targets of the strike have been achieved. The objects are affected.”

The detailed targeting of the electric war campaign can be found in the Russian military bloggers who compile their reports and maps from a range of Russian and Ukrainian sources, including videoclips from residents in the targeted cities.

The westward extension of the missile and drone targeting has included Khmelnitsky, Rivne and Burshtyn, around the Galician capital of Lvov, in this map and summary from Militarist for March 29.

MAP OF RUSSIAN STRIKES AGAINST UKRAINE POWER PLANT TARGETS, MARCH 29

Source: https://t.me/infantmilitario/123071

“Ukraine is moving towards a truly definitive energy crisis”, Militarist reported on March 30. “In the east and west, thermal power plants are being eliminated one by one by completely demolishing the main turbine and generator sections. Dams also began to collapse from south to north. It is expected that all dams and thermal power plants will be put out of operation in the near future. The Ukrainian military industry will be destroyed both by direct attacks and by the energy crisis. The possibility of NATO-supported domestic production and maintenance will also be excluded. Thus, the logistics infrastructure in the rear may not be able to cope with events at the front.”

The Russian ordnance used is overwhelming; this is corroborated by Ukrainian reports. Tactically, drones are launched in swarms, the first wave to identify and activate the air defence missile and artillery systems around the electricity targets; in the second wave drones and missiles strike their targets. According to Ukrainian data, in just two days from March 22 to 24, 208 missiles and unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) were fired at the country’s energy facilities.

UKRAINE REGION MAP OF POWER PLANT TARGETS, OUTAGES CONFIRMED, MARCH 22-24

Source: https://t.me/infantmilitario/122995

The inadequacy of Ukrainian and NATO means of defence is explained by a Russian source, describing how the long-range, air-launched X-101 missile has been modified. “The warhead has almost doubled and now is not 450 kg, but 800 kg. For this, part of the fuel tank has had to be sacrificed. However, given the size of Ukraine and the range of the X-101, the missile will not lose its effectiveness against energy system targets, like the Dnieper Hydroelectric Station (HPP). Apparently, it was one of the first recipients.”

The tinkering, testing, and launching are a constant Russian process; there is nothing comparable on the US, French, or European side, although weaponizing electricity is not new. The Iraqi military did it against Iran in February 1984 when high-voltage power lines were dropped into Fish Lake, east of Basra, electrocuting Iranian soldiers attempting to cross the lake. The Russians have the capability to use drones to drop wires on overhead lines and allow them to settle on the ground near Ukrainian deployments, lines of fortifications, or the westward routes of retreat.

Also, Russian sources believe a new drone weapon is being designed for triggering reverse surges along the Ukrainian grid lines, completing the knockout of the domestic Ukrainian transmission grid, and surging back into the sources of replacement electricity from Poland, Romania, and Moldova.

UKRAINE MAP OF ELECTRICITY REPLACEMENT IMPORT SOURCES

Total maximum power source capacity claimed from imports 3,890 kV. Source: https://kyivindependent.com

MAP OF UKRAINE HIGH-VOLTAGE TRANSMISSION LINE TARGETS FOR RUSSIAN DRONES

Click on image to enlarge. Key: blue=750kV transmission line; orange=330kV transmission line;red=750kv transmission line.

From the south Moldova and Romania are sending power; to cut this off and threaten the cross-border source, the target is the 750kV line (yellow) just west of the Artsyz SS hub which connects northward to the Pivdennoukrainska NPP. The Polish line (in red) is vulnerable to a strike west of Rivne. The lines to and from Hungary and Slovakia can be targeted south of the Zapadnoukrainska SS. The Slovak and Hungarian sources are unlikely to be targeted, the Ukrainian grid distributing their power more likely. The drone for targeting these elements is designed as an explosive inductor, dropped on and connected to the high-tension lines to produce voltage surges and dips, so that when the Ukrainian utility engineers try to rig repairs, close the breakers or switches, the drone-producing surges will blow the circuits up and down the transmission lines.

Boris Rozhin, who publishes the Colonel Cassad military blog, has tabulated the destruction of the generating units east and west of Kiev as of March 30.

Source: https://t.me/boris_rozhin/118499

“Updated data on the state of thermal power plants in Ukraine.
In 2021, Ukraine controlled 13 thermal power plants (formerly GRES) with a total installed capacity of approximately 22.3 GW. During the fighting, 4 thermal power plants with a total installed capacity of approximately 6.7 GW came under the control of the Russian Federation. The damaged Kurakhovskaya TPP in the frontline zone – 1.4 GW - has been completely stopped. A representative of DTEK said that on March 22, 2024, the Burshtyn and Ladyzhinskaya TPPs were completely destroyed – 2.3 and 1.8 GW, respectively, and Centrenergo reported the complete destruction of the Zmievskaya TPP – another 2.2 GW. Thus, Ukraine has lost at least 14.5 GW of the thermal power plants that operated in 2021. At the moment, the extent of damage is unclear to at least two more thermal power plants which have come under attack – Pridneprovskaya and Krivoy Rog. Accordingly, 9 thermal power plants remaining under Ukrainian control, include 4 destroyed, 2 at least damaged, and 3 thermal power plants that are probably unaffected. The total installed capacity of 5 ‘conditionally alive’ is about 7.8 GW, but most likely much less, taking into account strikes at the Pridneprovskaya and Krivoy Rog thermal power plants.”

What is left of Ukraine’s energy system at the moment, and what can survive if the intensity of the Russian campaign is sustained for several more weeks?

According to Rozhin, as of Sunday night, “most of Ukraine depends on four main energy sources: South Ukrainian NPP, Kyiv power plant, Vinnitsa 750 kV and Moldovan transit. The total generation is about 8 GW, but even this does not supply all the need for energy, so now the weather is of great importance for the enemy for the production of alternative energy (solar, wind).”

“The sweetest targets”, Readovka.ru reported on March 30, “are the high-voltage substations of 750/330 kV, as well as the border substations through which the energy transfer from the EU goes. First of all, we are talking about the Zapadnoukrainskaya substation in the Lvov region.”

“There are a total of 141 transmission substations in the Ukraine,” the western military engineer source notes. “It’s not at all outside of the Russian capacity to destroy them. Nor is it outside of their capacity to destroy the transmission towers, short-circuit the lines, screw up the synchronization equipment, and so on.”

The Ukrainian media and press releases from the DTEK utility confirm the vulnerability, especially as the country approaches the June-July period of maximum summer power consumption. Rolling blackouts are being imposed, then lifted, then reimposed, according to the announcements to domestic consumers. This means that the utilities and repair engineers are finding it increasingly difficult to keep up with the pace of the attacks.

In Kharkov, for example, the current rolling blackouts of four hours or more mean that food will be spoiling in refrigerators, telephones will be dead, the internet will be down, and services will seize up. Once the liquid fuel stocks dwindle – these are also under parallel attack – the emergency generators will stop running, such food as there is will rot in the grocery stores.

This is a type of siege by electricity. The Kiev regime will be unable to reinforce or resupply the eastern cities, and there will be no Russian ground advance; no Mariupol, Bakhmut or Avdeyevka battles; no electricity until capitulation.
The military sources on whom the milbloggers rely also warn: “Yes, the damage is more than serious,” according to Rozhin, “but you should not accept on faith all the statements of the enemy about the damage received, since it is beneficial for him to overestimate the damage and foster the impression on our side that the work has been done and so we will not finish off those targets which have already received serious damage, but can be restored.”

The electric war is an operation to bypass the cities which the Ukrainians and their US and NATO military staffs believe will soon be targets for direct Russian attack. The lines of fortification look like this:
FORTIFICATION LINES CONSTRUCTED FOR KIEV, DNIEPROPETROVSK

Source: https://t.me/boris_rozhin/118484

A western military source believes, like Russian sources, that the Russian General Staff will make no direct city attacks and will leapfrog over or bypass the new fortifications. Where they have been built to the east of Dniepropetrovsk and to the north of Kiev and Chernigov, the source suspects, “the Ukrainians have created a Siegfried Line which the Russians will use against them later. Some of the fortifications face the wrong way, but the dragons’ teeth, wire and ditches will work fine in reverse when the time comes to enforce the DMZ.” For more on how the demilitarized zone will be drawn, read this.

NATO intelligence reports, leaked apparently by the French in support of President Emmanuel Macron’s hints of fresh deployments of French, Polish, and Baltic forces at the new fortified lines, are dismissed by sources in Moscow; they warn that the French, like the Americans in Kiev and Brussels, lack the intelligence to distinguish between force and feint.

Note the French arrows of “possible major Russian offensive in June 2024”. Source: https://www.intelligenceonline.com/ Intelligence Online is published in Paris by a group which claims “we are not culturally partisan, either toward France's interests nor those of the third world.... We are very careful not to have any 'national' positioning’ ”.

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conclusion

A western military observer agrees. “My read is that the General Staff are deploying to tie down NATO and Ukrainian forces west of the Dnieper; assembling a credible force to dissuade any NATO move to threaten Kaliningrad; ensuring Belarussian territory is secure from the kind of raids we’ve seen in the Belgorod region.” They are also signaling what the Americans and French can’t admit in public that NATO forces are so weak in terms of manpower, equipment, ammunition, airpower, and capacity to engage that the Russian and Belarussian forces have the capacity to choose and dominate the field on a full spectrum basis whenever they choose.”

“The strategy”, the western military source again, “is to draw more of the NATO forces into the zones which are rapidly becoming de-electrified where they will soon be cut off from resupply or escape. The loss of electricity in Kharkov is already pitting the Ukrainian and foreign staff bunkers and troops in position against the city’s citizens for access to power, light, everything. It’s becoming an ungovernable situation. That’s the strategy.”

“The unspoken Russian advice is for the French, Poles, etc., to stick to posturing and grandstanding unless they have large reserves of body bags and candles laid up.”

NOTE: The lead image shows a night strike by drones in the Odessa region on March 30-31. According to Rozhin’s report, “the Russian forces attacked energy infrastructure facilities in the Odessa region. Coordinates: 46.6995149, 30.9316853. During the raid, the Ajalyk 330 PS northeast of Odessa was put out of action. After the strike, most of Odessa and nearby settlements were left without electricity. There was a powerful fire on the territory of the facility, which is also confirmed by satellite thermal indicators. The damage inflicted does not allow transferring power to the city from the South Ukrainian NPP in the Nikolaev region. Coordinates: 46.4538478, 30.3870876. Another blow was struck at one of the two autotransformers of the Novoodesskaya 330 kV substation… As a result of the strikes, the situation with Odessa's electricity supply has approached critical: there is no local generation, and power from the South Ukrainian NPP simply does not reach the city.”
by Editor - Monday, April 1st, 2024


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Abert

Veteran Member
It's my understanding that Trump refuses to visit Ukraine during the election season.

Although, in his defense, Trump does have a busy court calendar.
Yes he did a big push back in Nov to get Trump to meet with him and it looks like he is making a new push.
NOT SURE WHY - because Trump has already stated his position (plan) to end this which Zelensky has already REJECTED.
Nothing has changed - Just more DRAMA from Zelensky for Headlines.

Donald Trump’s Reported Peace Plan In Ukraine Is Revealed. Expert Says It’s ‘Terrible’​


Donald Trump’s claim that he could end the war in Ukraine within 24 hours apparently involves pushing the country to surrender Crimea and the Donbas border region to Russia, sources familiar with the plan told The Washington Post in Sunday’s edition.

Actually the BEST move for Ukraine is to TAKE Trumps advise and HOPE Russia would talk.
Because as of now Russia has made its position clear:

As stated this week at the UN Security Council meeting - Vasily Nebenzya, the Permanent Representative of Russia to the United Nations, said:
Very soon the only topic for any international meetings on Ukraine will be the unconditional capitulation of the Kiev regime - I advise you all to prepare for this in advance.
 
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I find the electric war in Ukraine and Europe reminiscent of our Y2k, EMP, Solar Flare concerns. The widespread lack of electricity in Ukraine is novel in our times. Ukraine is the first country whose widely adopted digital dependence is experiencing a catastrophic loss of these systems. As written above in Helmer's essay, the third leg of the stool*, has been removed and the cascading effects will soon be evident.

Kharkiv, and Kiev are the two largest cities in Ukraine and both are mostly black. These two cities are also the most technology dependent, and from what I'm reading, this situation will continue on for years. Lesser populated cities are also in similar straits.

It's feasible to conclude the Ukrainians are in a better emotional state to deal with these problems than those in the West. Then again perhaps not. Wholesale mayhem, carnage, cannibalism, catatonic and emotional shock may be lessened as the widespread adoption of these tech systems are in their populations first generation. As an example statistics have a high percentage of their rural populations not dependent on running water, and other indoor conveniences. Big cities, not so much.

One other interesting issue Helmer brings up are the problems created for western supplies of high voltage electricity to Ukraine (transients, back-feeding spikes, etc.), these problems might have the possibility of migrating westward.

We may expect much less information on these situations due to massive communications losses, much less realtime Internet comms as the systems degrade. Whatever the case, gleaning information from here on out is going to more interesting, and complicated.

The other main issue in respect to Ukraine is - their rail system is almost entirely electrified. Rail is the primary mode of war supply transport. Even if they can quickly resort to diesel or coal, switching and signalling is mostly electric dependent.

If you have only skimmed Helmer's posts and the ones above, you might want to read them with another look.

* Infomagic - Modern Civilizations rests on a three legged stool, electricity is one leg - the stool will topple without one leg. Forgive my porous memory in regard to the other two. In fact I'm hoping I'm correctly attributing to Infomagic.


Best Regards,
Tom

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ETA Infomagic - Three Essays
 
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von Koehler

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Yes he did a big push back in Nov to get Trump to meet with him and it looks like he is making a new push.
NOT SURE WHY - because Trump has already stated his position (plan) to end this which Zelensky has already REJECTED.
Nothing has changed - Just more DRAMA from Zelensky for Headlines.

Donald Trump’s Reported Peace Plan In Ukraine Is Revealed. Expert Says It’s ‘Terrible’​


Donald Trump’s claim that he could end the war in Ukraine within 24 hours apparently involves pushing the country to surrender Crimea and the Donbas border region to Russia, sources familiar with the plan told The Washington Post in Sunday’s edition.

Actually the BEST move for Ukraine is to TAKE Trumps advise and HOPE Russia would talk.
Because as of now Russia has made its position clear:

As stated this week at the UN Security Council meeting - Vasily Nebenzya, the Permanent Representative of Russia to the United Nations, said:
Very soon the only topic for any international meetings on Ukraine will be the unconditional capitulation of the Kiev regime - I advise you all to prepare for this in advance.

This was Putin's intention all along; to reabsorb all of Ukraine back into Russia.

Putin's peace plan is the unconditional surrender of Ukraine. Trump is delusional if he thinks otherwise.

This is an existential struggle for Ukraine.
 

Abert

Veteran Member
This was Putin's intention all along; to reabsorb all of Ukraine back into Russia.

Putin's peace plan is the unconditional surrender of Ukraine. Trump is delusional if he thinks otherwise.

This is an existential struggle for Ukraine.
History can be your friend.

As has been discussed and verified over and over again - Russia (Putin) had aggreged to end this 2 years ago - with Ukraine keeping everything (except Crimea). The war would have ended - without Russia demanding the unconditional surrender or the taking of any territory

But Ukraine backed out of the agreement - so the negations - 100% by Ukraine's choice - went from the Diplomats to the Generals. Ukraine declared over and over again that they intended to end this via WAR against Russia - force Russia to surrender on Ukrainian terms. Specifically in Ukraine's 10 point peace plan: Restoring Ukraine's territorial integrity and Russia reaffirming it according the U.N. Charter, which Zelenskiy said is "not up to negotiations".

So Ukraine has set the stage - they refuse negotiations - they insist this will only be settled on the battlefield.

Well at this point it is simple - Russia unconditionally surrenders or Ukraine will - the way wars have ended for 1000's of years. That History thing again

But not to worr
y - we have been reassured this week by Zelensky that this is not over - he plans YET another Counter-Offensive in 2025 - this one will settle the matter - driving the Russians out - maybe ever Ukrainian tanks in Red Square.

Yes - this will end with an unconditional surrender
 

Abert

Veteran Member
Patriot Missiles - the latest shinny object - the solution on how to turn this around.
EXCEPT there are NONE:
Ukraine's best friends Poland and Lithuania explain that they can't give Zelensky Patriots because they don't have them, and don't know where to find them

Well there are SOME - the US currently can produce around 500 a YEAR - they have ramped up production and are looking to get to around 700 a Year, So to keep this easy lets say they get up to 730 or TWO per DAY what does that do for Ukraine?

Granted Ukraine may get a few systems and maybe a few missiles from other nations - but when they are gone - like their current stock - then what? Getting to a steady state - at that point if the US gave Ukraine 100% of their Patriot Missile production - Ukraine would be able to fire on ONE Russian Missile per day (given two missiles are shot at a target)

The US providing 100% of all missiles they can produced would only result in Ukraine - maybe - being able to take out ONE Russian missile per day of the dozens / hundreds fired at them.

That is the BEST case
, - beside supplying Ukraine these missiles are contracted to other nations - only a fraction of the production can be sent to Ukraine. As for nations giving up these BILLION+ Dollar AD systems - WHY? Given the backlog for new missiles and systems any nation that gave up their AD to Ukraine would be looking at years before they could be replaced.

But this makes for Excellent PR and SPIN on why Ukraine is not winning
 

Abert

Veteran Member

SENATOR VANCE: THE MATH ON UKRAINE DOESN’T ADD UP​

Making the simple points no one wants to face. But then again - do they still teach math?
This is not just a matter of dollars. Fundamentally, we lack the capacity to manufacture the amount of weapons Ukraine needs us to supply to win the war.”

Consider our ability to produce 155-millimeter artillery shells. Last year, Ukraine’s then defense minister assessed that their base line requirement for these shells is over four million per year, but said they could fire up to seven million if that many were available. Since the start of the conflict, the United States has gone to great lengths to ramp up production of 155-millimeter shells. We’ve roughly doubled our capacity and can now produce 360,000 per year — less than a tenth of what Ukraine says it needs.

The story is the same when we look at other munitions. Take the Patriot missile system — our premier air defense weapon. It’s of such importance in this war that Ukraine’s foreign minister has specifically demanded them. That’s because in March alone, Russia reportedly launched over 3,000 guided aerial bombs, 600 drones and 400 missiles at Ukraine. To fend off these attacks, the Ukrainian president, Volodymyr Zelensky, and others have indicated they need thousands of Patriot interceptors per year. The problem is this: The United States only manufactures 550 every year. If we pass the supplemental aid package currently being considered in Congress, we could potentially increase annual production to 650, but that’s still less than a third of what Ukraine requires.

Ukraine’s manpower situation is even worse. Here are the basics: Russia has nearly four times the population of Ukraine. Ukraine needs upward of half a million new recruits, but hundreds of thousands of fighting-age men have already fled the country. The average Ukrainian soldier is roughly 43 years old, and many soldiers have already served two years at the front with few, if any, opportunities to stop fighting. After two years of conflict, there are some villages with almost no men left.

The White House (
and Zelensky) has said time and again that they can’t negotiate with President Vladimir Putin of Russia. This is absurd. The Biden administration has no viable plan for the Ukrainians to win this war. The sooner Americans confront this truth, the sooner we can fix this mess and broker for peace.
 

von Koehler

Has No Life - Lives on TB
assume it doesn't bode well for Ukraine if her "friends" have begun truth telling eh?


BBC News (World)
@BBCWorld

Ukraine could face defeat in 2024. Here's how that might look
View: https://twitter.com/BBCWorld/status/1778943984972251621

Clearly the blame is from America for not honoring it's pledge to Ukraine.

Ukraine was battling an opponent far larger and much better equipped but achieved a success few had foreseen. America has not supplied needed support for over six months now.

And this failure is due largely to the politics of one man.

America is demonstrating it's promises can not be relied upon.

View: https://youtu.be/CJqmf1n7xSY?si=Z9QDCpifdgX8aN0e

Two minutes
 
Last edited:

Abert

Veteran Member
Clearly the blame is from America for not honoring it's pledge to Ukraine.

Ukraine was battling an opponent far larger and much better equipped but achieved a success few had foreseen. America has not supplied needed support for over six months now.

And this failure is due largely to the politics of one man.

America is demonstrating it's promises can not be relied upon.
NUMBERS & MATH - hard concepts for some to grasp
It has NOTHING to do with Trump - or Biden

As noted before Biden still has around $4 Billion in draw down authority - to SEND Weapons NOW - why has he not?
The Pentagon dipped into that unexpectedly discovered $6.2 billion a few times to send additional weapons to Ukraine, and there is currently about $3.91 billion left.

NUMBERS again - because we have effectively NOTHING to send - and what little we do have is going to the ME. And if that goes hot - even less will be sent to Ukraine.

Even when the House - likely - approves another $60B or so for Ukraine it will make no difference - you can't purchase items that do not exists. Yes the US MIC is talking about ramping up production IN A FEW YEARS, same with EU nations.

As I noted and also Vance's article on missiles we only produce a fraction of what Ukraine needs - no one else produces Patriot missile - even giving them 100% of everything we produced would allow them to increase their intercept of Russian missiles by - at most - maybe ONE per day. That MATH thing again. BTW Trump has no control over missile production or where they go - talk to Biden.

What about the EU - they PROMISED some 1 Million 155mm shells - they only delivered about 300k - was that Trump or just that they don't exists.

And even if we waved a magic wand and gave Ukraine all it needed - well ALMOST all they need - there is the small issue of troops to use the weapons - Ukraine is quickly running out of troops - I guess that is also Trump's Fault

The simple fact is that Russia's Arms Industries are outproducing what the US and NATO can provide. Even their army is now larger than when this started. As far as I know Trump has no investments in the Russian Arms Industries.

This War was 100% started under Biden
Biden is still in in control of Billions he could use.
Biden decides what arms are shipped out and to who.
Biden could redirect current arms production under contract to other nations to be redirected to Ukraine.
In the end Biden will likely just walk away - like he did in Afghanistan - when Ukraine is no longer any use.
 

CaryC

Has No Life - Lives on TB

SENATOR VANCE: THE MATH ON UKRAINE DOESN’T ADD UP​

Making the simple points no one wants to face. But then again - do they still teach math?
This is not just a matter of dollars. Fundamentally, we lack the capacity to manufacture the amount of weapons Ukraine needs us to supply to win the war.”

Consider our ability to produce 155-millimeter artillery shells. Last year, Ukraine’s then defense minister assessed that their base line requirement for these shells is over four million per year, but said they could fire up to seven million if that many were available. Since the start of the conflict, the United States has gone to great lengths to ramp up production of 155-millimeter shells. We’ve roughly doubled our capacity and can now produce 360,000 per year — less than a tenth of what Ukraine says it needs.

The story is the same when we look at other munitions. Take the Patriot missile system — our premier air defense weapon. It’s of such importance in this war that Ukraine’s foreign minister has specifically demanded them. That’s because in March alone, Russia reportedly launched over 3,000 guided aerial bombs, 600 drones and 400 missiles at Ukraine. To fend off these attacks, the Ukrainian president, Volodymyr Zelensky, and others have indicated they need thousands of Patriot interceptors per year. The problem is this: The United States only manufactures 550 every year. If we pass the supplemental aid package currently being considered in Congress, we could potentially increase annual production to 650, but that’s still less than a third of what Ukraine requires.

Ukraine’s manpower situation is even worse. Here are the basics: Russia has nearly four times the population of Ukraine. Ukraine needs upward of half a million new recruits, but hundreds of thousands of fighting-age men have already fled the country. The average Ukrainian soldier is roughly 43 years old, and many soldiers have already served two years at the front with few, if any, opportunities to stop fighting. After two years of conflict, there are some villages with almost no men left.

The White House (
and Zelensky) has said time and again that they can’t negotiate with President Vladimir Putin of Russia. This is absurd. The Biden administration has no viable plan for the Ukrainians to win this war. The sooner Americans confront this truth, the sooner we can fix this mess and broker for peace.
Saw an article again yesterday that they are having yet another peace treaty meeting WITHOUT Russia being invited or present. Anyone with one eye and a peg leg can tell that won't work.

Saw a different article this AM where Zippy is saying he needs more money for yet another counter offensive.

With that article and your comments above my thought now as it has been since the beginning is: Where are they going to get the men to man all those artillery shells, and counter offensive?

And if anyone wants to say or think "NATO" IMHO not going to happen. If NATO wanted in, they could have been in for the last 2 1/2 years. They don't want to fight Russia no more than Russia wants to fight NATO.

Case in point: Macron running his mouth about troops to Ukraine, troops to Ukraine......and all the while buying LNG from Russia. (another article) Which may in fact be funding the Russian war machine.

These maneuvers to support Ukraine isn't about liberating parts of Ukraine, if it was, it could have been done long ago and been over by now. So what is it about? No. 1 on my list is money.
 

CaryC

Has No Life - Lives on TB
KYIV, Ukraine (AP) – At least 10 people, including children, died after shelling late on Friday struck a Russian-occupied town in Ukraine’s southern Zaporizhzhia region, a local Kremlin-installed official said, blaming Ukraine for the attack.

Meanwhile, Ukrainian officials reported at least three civilian deaths elsewhere in the country that they said resulted from Russian attacks.

Russian emergency services on Saturday were working in the rubble in hopes of saving civilians trapped underneath the debris of their homes in Tokmak, in a part of southern Ukraine that Moscow has illegally annexed from Kyiv, according to the Kremlin-installed regional head Yevhen Balitsky.

The Tokmak municipal administration reported on Telegram that the shelling struck three apartment blocks on Friday evening. Five people were pulled alive from the rubble, Balitsky said, and a total of 13 people were hospitalized.

As of early afternoon on Saturday, Ukraine had not commented on the allegations.

Elsewhere in Ukraine, at least two civilians died as a result of Russian shelling on Friday and overnight, according to officials. Both deaths occurred in the front-line Donetsk region in the east, according to Telegram posts by local Gov. Vadym Filashkin.

 

Abert

Veteran Member
Saw an article again yesterday that they are having yet another peace treaty meeting WITHOUT Russia being invited or present. Anyone with one eye and a peg leg can tell that won't work.

Saw a different article this AM where Zippy is saying he needs more money for yet another counter offensive.

With that article and your comments above my thought now as it has been since the beginning is: Where are they going to get the men to man all those artillery shells, and counter offensive?

And if anyone wants to say or think "NATO" IMHO not going to happen. If NATO wanted in, they could have been in for the last 2 1/2 years. They don't want to fight Russia no more than Russia wants to fight NATO.

Case in point: Macron running his mouth about troops to Ukraine, troops to Ukraine......and all the while buying LNG from Russia. (another article) Which may in fact be funding the Russian war machine.

These maneuvers to support Ukraine isn't about liberating parts of Ukraine, if it was, it could have been done long ago and been over by now. So what is it about? No. 1 on my list is money.
Some good observations - actually I am not sure that a specific "plan" exists - but movements to position themselves to take advantage of events as they unfold.

Yes your No 1 Money is and has been at the top of the list. The US MIC is making Billions and expects to have orders backed up for years. Related to that is every NATO military operation (like any bureaucracy) has been green lighted to expand their operation and are getting increased funding. Naturally Governments having to to "something" about this Russia threat get to push through more Taxes. Talk of new draft laws are likely more just to push the panic - EU kids are not likely to go to the trenches. Just justification for additional redistributions of wealth from citizens to their Governments

There is also an indirect money related item. The US having effectively spun up this new Iron Wall / Warm War with Russia has gotten Europe to cut off their supply of cheap raw materials, energy and markets. Totally destroying Germany's heavy chemical industry as well as other. The result is the US has effectively crippled EU economic competition. A great 2 for 1 for the US - Direct Economic war on Russia and Indirect Economic war on the EU.

The Economics is pretty clear - what is not so are the political moves.
Yes - yet another peace treaty meeting WITHOUT Russia? They are not spending the time and efforts to hold these without some agenda. Naturally it does nothing to end the war but may give them some political cover to take other actions. Part naturally is to validate the taxing for the war effort. But longer term I am sure that nationalists in several nations surrounding Ukraine looking at areas that had formally belonged to them - see a chance to once again redraw borders. Why Not? This is exactly what Russia is doing - retaking historic lands. It would be naïve to assume that these discussions - and plans - are not being reviewed. Yes the public position is that they are with Ukraine 100% but behind closed doors the discussions of what happens when Ukraine colipases is on the table.
Movements like French troops and likely other will be introduced or positioned to do so in anticipation of things coming apart. When the Ukrainian Government colipases things will be totally out of control especially in the Western areas - introduction of humanitarian troops would be the "right thing" to do.

Historically Ukraine's borders have been redrawn over and over again - in some areas villages have 3 or more names depending on which nation owned them over the decades / centuries - no reason to think this process will not continue.

There could be (and likely are) other plans being worked on - this war is far from over and how it ends and what related action other nations will take is impossible to know
 

tanstaafl

Has No Life - Lives on TB
America is demonstrating it's promises can not be relied upon.

Anyone who has actually studied recent history should be able to tell you all about the Hmong in Vietnam and the Kurds in northern Iraq and how they relate to the quoted comment. There are probably other ethnic groups that could fit into that category (for example, there must be some groups in Afghanistan who backed the U.S. and the Taliban have since crushed for their "betrayal" of the country). Right now Biden is having trouble remaining still upright as he practically runs backwards to distance himself from Israel -- I have no idea how President Befuddled thinks he can reject his Israeli cake and still eat it too, but he is flailing around trying to do exactly that.
 

Abert

Veteran Member
New Ukraine demobilization plan ..... fight till you die or are too crippled to fight.

@@@

Ukraine scraps demobilisation plan of soldiers, causes massive outrage | WION Originals​

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJG6Hy2bxxw

Run time - 1:36
Apr 11, 2024
Yep - shell game. The reason pushed for the new mobilization (draft) plan to raise some 500k troops was to allow a demobilization and rotation for current troops. Now it is clear the 500k are likely not for any other reason than to replace losses. It never was logical that facing a well documented shortage of troops that they could afford to demobilize any troops. These are 100% to replace combat losses.
 

Abert

Veteran Member
Amazing what a bunch of drunk Vodka drinking potato farmers can come up with.
In fact, this is the most important event in Russian cosmonautics in recent decades. Firstly, “Angara” and specifically its version “Angara-A5M” is the first completely new launch vehicle developed after the collapse of the USSR. Moreover, it was launched from the first purely Russian civilian cosmodrome, which will gradually replace the Baikonur spacecraft remaining in Kazakhstan.

And not just a new carrier, but also a heavy-class carrier, which, when the development program is finally completed, will make it possible to launch loads up to 37 tons into orbit (The version that launched today can lift a load weighing 24.5 tons into orbit).

And this is the most important key to a huge number of new Russian space programs, including flight and exploration of the Moon, as well as flights into deep space.

This is also a powerful impetus for growth in the high-tech sectors of our economy, which will spread throughout the entire economy of the country.
 

Knoxville's Joker

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Amazing what a bunch of drunk Vodka drinking potato farmers can come up with.
In fact, this is the most important event in Russian cosmonautics in recent decades. Firstly, “Angara” and specifically its version “Angara-A5M” is the first completely new launch vehicle developed after the collapse of the USSR. Moreover, it was launched from the first purely Russian civilian cosmodrome, which will gradually replace the Baikonur spacecraft remaining in Kazakhstan.

And not just a new carrier, but also a heavy-class carrier, which, when the development program is finally completed, will make it possible to launch loads up to 37 tons into orbit (The version that launched today can lift a load weighing 24.5 tons into orbit).

And this is the most important key to a huge number of new Russian space programs, including flight and exploration of the Moon, as well as flights into deep space.

This is also a powerful impetus for growth in the high-tech sectors of our economy, which will spread throughout the entire economy of the country.
And a sign that SpaceX is having an effect on everyone else. I would not put it past Elon to have sold designs to Russia for his engines so this was possible as honestly he used a core design element from the Russians for his engines...
 

wait-n-see

Veteran Member
Amazing what a bunch of drunk Vodka drinking potato farmers can come up with.
In fact, this is the most important event in Russian cosmonautics in recent decades. Firstly, “Angara” and specifically its version “Angara-A5M” is the first completely new launch vehicle developed after the collapse of the USSR. Moreover, it was launched from the first purely Russian civilian cosmodrome, which will gradually replace the Baikonur spacecraft remaining in Kazakhstan.

And not just a new carrier, but also a heavy-class carrier, which, when the development program is finally completed, will make it possible to launch loads up to 37 tons into orbit (The version that launched today can lift a load weighing 24.5 tons into orbit).

And this is the most important key to a huge number of new Russian space programs, including flight and exploration of the Moon, as well as flights into deep space.

This is also a powerful impetus for growth in the high-tech sectors of our economy, which will spread throughout the entire economy of the country.

Also amazing what else Russia can do with shovels and washing machines, eh? ;)

@@@

Russia’s SARMAT ICBM Set For Combat Debut In Ukraine​

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqclRFWn4Qo

Run time - 8:00
Apr 13, 2024
 

Abert

Veteran Member
And a sign that SpaceX is having an effect on everyone else. I would not put it past Elon to have sold designs to Russia for his engines so this was possible as honestly he used a core design element from the Russians for his engines...
Hard to say - these engines are quite complex. Actually NASA use former Soviet engines for boosters for years. The Soviet's found a way to increase the efficiency beyond what NASA "experts" said was possible. It was only after testing samples that NASA admitted that the Soviets had developed and implemented a unique solution. NASA ended up purchasing hundreds and used them as boosters on their rockets. Russia knows rockets - recall for some 10 years they were the only RIDE to the International Space Station - the US was more than happy to pay for the ride.

Musk is doing some amazing development - way beyond what NASA is capable of - it is not the same NASA as in the 70's - now nothing more than just another administrative heavy Government Bureaucracy.
 

Knoxville's Joker

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Hard to say - these engines are quite complex. Actually NASA use former Soviet engines for boosters for years. The Soviet's found a way to increase the efficiency beyond what NASA "experts" said was possible. It was only after testing samples that NASA admitted that the Soviets had developed and implemented a unique solution. NASA ended up purchasing hundreds and used them as boosters on their rockets. Russia knows rockets - recall for some 10 years they were the only RIDE to the International Space Station - the US was more than happy to pay for the ride.

Musk is doing some amazing development - way beyond what NASA is capable of - it is not the same NASA as in the 70's - now nothing more than just another administrative heavy Government Bureaucracy.
It was more than that. Russia had a different engineering approach where the workers wer as much engineers as the engineers themselves. In a fully vertical everyone involved in the improvement process, it is quite possible to shake the paradigm. Something we as a country have lost as we so overly value pieces of paper...
 

tanstaafl

Has No Life - Lives on TB
I don't know the actual distance and of course I'm exaggerating here, but I swear it looks like the Vostochny Cosmodrome is about 15 feet from Russia's border with China. Hopefully there will be no Russia-China conflicts in the future because if there is Russia may well quickly lose its access to Vostochny. In any case, from my understanding Vostochny will eventually become Russia's main manned launch facility, although as far as I know there have been no actual manned missions launched from there yet.

Not that this has anything directly to do with the war in the Ukraine.
 

Knoxville's Joker

Has No Life - Lives on TB
I don't know the actual distance and of course I'm exaggerating here, but I swear it looks like the Vostochny Cosmodrome is about 15 feet from Russia's border with China. Hopefully there will be no Russia-China conflicts in the future because if there is Russia may well quickly lose its access to Vostochny. In any case, from my understanding Vostochny will eventually become Russia's main manned launch facility, although as far as I know there have been no actual manned missions launched from there yet.

Not that this has anything directly to do with the war in the Ukraine.
China does not have the money to risk an invasion there let alone good qeuipment and personell. It is a paper army of sorts. Yes they can use swarm tactics, but their endemic corruption has caused more issues than even Russia has...
 

Tristan

Has No Life - Lives on TB

Looks like the gas station with Nukes is still producing and selling oil.​

Russian oil flows are sidestepping sanctions and trading above the G-7 price cap all over the world​

Russia's benchmark crude is fetching roughly $75 a barrel, well above the G-7's $60 price cap, Bloomberg reported.
Urals crude reaching India trades at $88 a barrel, while oil leaving from eastern Russia sells for $84 a barrel.



It's almost as if they'd rather have a valuable, irreplaceable even, commodity rather than a depreciating fiat currency.

Who'da thunk it?

Who coulda knowed it?
 

Tristan

Has No Life - Lives on TB
True - but the difference is we are the GOOD Guys - anything we do is OK - Such as the food sanctions on Iraq that resulted it the deaths of some 500,000 children - a war crime? - an attack on civilians?
NO per Secretary of State Madeleine Albright's answer about the intentional deaths - "I think that is a very hard choice," Albright answered, "but the price, we think, the price is worth it." The US gets the benefit - others pay the price.

Sometimes, I don't know whether to post the thumbs up, or the pissed off emoji...

:shk:

Regardless, it was a good post, Abert.

Sobering, of course.
 

Abert

Veteran Member
It was more than that. Russia had a different engineering approach where the workers wer as much engineers as the engineers themselves. In a fully vertical everyone involved in the improvement process, it is quite possible to shake the paradigm. Something we as a country have lost as we so overly value pieces of paper...
Interesting topic and got me looking back at some articles on this subject (like most lost in history)
Anyway here is a good article from around 10 years ago that touches on many of these topics.

The Strange Cold War History of the Soviet Engines in the Antares Rocket​


When an Antares rocket went up in a huge fireball last week at the Wallops Flight Facility in Virginia, observers looking to quickly assign blame for the crash pointed their fingers in a surprising direction: Russia. The culprits, they speculated, were the Russian-made NK-33 engines used to power the rockets. Decades old and relics of the Cold War, these obscure machines turned into a political tool. With relations between Moscow and the West at their lowest point since the Cold War’s end, of course the Russian bogeyman could be spotted lurking in the shadows of this Virginia disaster.

But where did these engines come from? And how did they end up on an American rocket that is one of the main competitors to Paypal co-founder Elon Musk’s dreams of commercial space dominance?

The Soviet answer to America’s Saturn rocket was dubbed the N-1 and represented a massive experiment in rocket science.
The Soviets constructed a gargantuan rocket whose first stage was powered by 30 smaller rocket engines.

That engine was dubbed the NK-33 and represented a marvel of rocket science. Liquid-fueled rockets function by mixing a hydrocarbon — typically kerosene — with oxygen that then ignites in a combustion chamber. By raising the pressure in the combustion chamber, it is possible to generate even more thrust from that violent reaction. To do so, a pre-burner is used to pump the fuel at higher speeds. The Soviet innovation was to “close” this cycle and funnel the exhausts from the pre-burner into the combustion chamber. Previously, those exhausts had been vented to the engine’s side, wasting energy and possible power.

The NK-33’s design did something that American engineers thought had been impossible. Closing the cycle created a precarious balance within the rocket engine that operated at the edge of physics, producing previously unheard of efficiency and power.

It was only after the Soviet Union collapsed that American engineers realized what a treasure they had in Russia’s rocket stores. The Soviets, it turned out, had managed to construct rocket engines that were in many ways more capable than their American counterparts. “We looked at the Russian stuff and did a number of calculations to understand what they were telling us,” Bob Ford, a Lockheed Martin engineer who traveled to Russia to learn about Soviet rocket engines, told Wired in 2001. “It was eye-popping.”

American rocket engineers quickly realized that they could buy Soviet engines on the cheap and repurpose them in their own rockets. Refurbished and outfitted with more modern technology and electronics, the NK-33 is now used in Orbital Sciences’ Antares rocket, and the bigger, more powerful RD-180 is used in the Atlas rocket.

But America’s dependence on Russian rockets has now turned into a political flashpoint. The RD-180 is manufactured in the United States under license, and some observers fear that Russia might deny its renewal as relations between Moscow and Washington continue their downward slide.

And for entrepreneurs like Musk, this political subplot to the story of these Russian super-engines represents a business opportunity. “One of our competitors, Orbital Sciences, has a contract to resupply the International Space Station, and their rocket honestly sounds like the punch line to a joke,” he told Wired in 2012. “It uses Russian rocket engines that were made in the ’60s. I don’t mean their design is from the ’60s-I mean they start with engines that were literally made in the ’60s and, like, packed away in Siberia somewhere.”

Last week, he was singing a very different tune:


Musk is currently battling for control of the rapidly growing commercial space industry, and the quality of rocket engines is one key front on which that war is being waged. Musk’s SpaceX makes an engine that is similar to the NK-33 and is called the Merlin. It represents the workhorse of his space fleet, and if Musk is able to convince his customers — primarily the U.S. government — that he has built a superior machine, he will be well on his way to crushing his competition.

Left unsaid is that an engine made by Soviet engineers in the 1960s is effectively competing with a brand-new American design. The NK-33 is by some measures more powerful than the Merlin, and its continued use is a testament to the quality of the old design.


YEP - Russia knows Rockets - and that was their tech 60 years ago.
 

Abert

Veteran Member
China does not have the money to risk an invasion there let alone good qeuipment and personell. It is a paper army of sorts. Yes they can use swarm tactics, but their endemic corruption has caused more issues than even Russia has...
I would somewhat disagree - if necessary China has - if nothing else the personnel. But politically there is Zero reason to attack Russia. Yes some border disputes over the years but taking the BIG & Long term picture China knows that both it and Russia are the #1 targets of the US. The world is changing and China needs to establish trading partners outside of US control / sanctions. Russia is perfect as a supplier of raw materials, oil and likely food. They have built on and expanded that relation to help build BRICS - a world trading block EXEMPT from US control. For now the very survival of China and Russia depend on their working together - and likely for decades to come.
 
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