Ping Jockey
Inactive
Dalmor for the Scots in me, Connemara for the Irish in me and Jagermeister when the German in me wants to go blitzkrieg.
BRKG Russia fires warning shots at British destroyer in Black Sea. A Russian SU-24 jet also dropped bombs
- Thread starter jward
- Start date
Grumphau
Veteran Member
Do Germans drink that dren?
night driver
ESFP adrift in INTJ sea
Not REAL ones. Just kids and tourists
night driver
ESFP adrift in INTJ sea
The REAL issue is the guys who KNOW often are still worried about their oaths and clearances.
though Story Hour still happens now and then
though Story Hour still happens now and then
Old Gringo
Senior Member
What has generated the wrath of the British toward Russia ?
TheChrome
Contributing Member
I must point out, that the UK did not violate Russian territorial waters. It sailed through Ukrainian waters, and as far as international law is concerned, the Defender could have docked at Sevastopol. Realistically the US could sail a carrier battle group up to Crimea without violating international law.
jward
passin' thru
Russia says warning shots deter UK warship; London denies it
By VLADIMIR ISACHENKOV and JILL LAWLESS
7-9 minutes
MOSCOW (AP) — Russia said one of its warships in the Black Sea fired warning shots and a warplane dropped bombs Wednesday to force a British destroyer out of an area near Crimea that Moscow claims as its territorial waters, but Britain denied that account and insisted its ship wasn’t fired upon.
It was the first time since the Cold War that Moscow acknowledged using live ammunition to deter a NATO warship, reflecting the growing risk of military incidents amid soaring tensions between Russia and the West.
The Russian Defense Ministry said a patrol ship fired warning shots after the HMS Defender had ignored a notice against intrusion and sailed 3 kilometers (1.6 nautical miles) into Russia’s territorial waters near Sevastopol, the main Russian naval base in Crimea. It said a Russian Su-24 bomber also dropped four bombs ahead of the vessel to persuade the Defender to change course. Minutes later, the Defender left Russian waters, the ministry said.
Russian Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Maria Zakharova denounced the “rude British provocation that defies international law,” and said London’s ambassador was being summoned. The Defense Ministry said it also called in the U.K. military attache in Moscow to protest the destroyer’s “dangerous move” and urged British authorities to investigate the crew’s actions.
Britain’s Ministry of Defense denied the Defender had been fired on or was in Russian waters, but had been in Ukrainian waters.
“No warning shots have been fired at HMS Defender,” it said in a statement. “The Royal Navy ship is conducting innocent passage through Ukrainian territorial waters in accordance with international law.”
Russia annexed Ukraine’s Crimean Peninsula in 2014, a move not recognized by most countries, gaining access to its long Black Sea coast. Russia has chafed at NATO warships visiting near Crimea as destabilizing. In April, it declared a broader area off Crimea closed to foreign naval ships.
“We believe the Russians were undertaking a gunnery exercise in the Black Sea and provided the maritime community with prior warning of their activity,” the British Ministry of Defense said. “No shots were directed at HMS Defender and we do not recognize the claim that bombs were dropped in her path.”
British Defense Secretary Ben Wallace said the Defender “carried out a routine transit from Odessa towards Georgia across the Black Sea.”
“As is normal for this route, she entered an internationally recognized traffic separation corridor,” he tweeted, adding that HMS Defender exited the corridor safely at 9:45 a.m. BST (0845 GMT; 4:45 a.m. EDT).
“As is routine, Russian vessels shadowed her passage and she was made aware of training exercises in her wider vicinity,” he added.
Speaking to Parliament’s defense committee, Wallace again denied Russia’s version of events.
“These are the things that come and go with Russia,” he said. “Disinformation, misinformation is something that we have seen regularly. We’re not surprised by it; we plan for it.”
Asked if Defender’s crew had seen or heard anything, he said “initial reports say they did hear or observe training noises somewhere to the rear of her but beyond visual range.”
“We saw the reports this morning,” said Max Blain, a spokesman for Prime Minister Boris Johnson. “It’s incorrect to say either that it was fired on or this ship was in Russian waters. HMS Defender was taking the most direct and internationally recognized route between Ukraine and Georgia.”
He emphasized that Britain, and much of the international community, does not recognize Russia’s annexation of Crimea.
Ukraine’s Foreign Minister Dmytro Kuleba said it was “clear proof of Ukraine’s position: Russia’s aggressive and provocative actions in the Black and Azov seas, its occupation and militarization of Crimea pose a lasting threat to Ukraine and allies.”
“We need a new quality of cooperation between Ukraine & NATO allies in the Black Sea,” Kuleba tweeted.
In November 2018, Russian coast guard ships fired on three Ukrainian gunboats trying to pass from the Black Sea into the Azov Sea and captured them along with 24 crewmembers. It returned the crew and the boats the following year.
HMS Defender, a Type 45 destroyer, is part of the U.K. Carrier Strike Group heading to the Indo-Pacific region. It was announced earlier this month that it would be temporarily breaking away from the group to carry out its “own set of missions” in the Black Sea.
Just before Wednesday’s incident, Defender stopped in the Ukrainian port of Odessa, where Ukrainian and British officials and industry representatives signed an agreement to collaborate on boosting Ukraine’s naval capabilities.
NATO members Turkey, Romania and Bulgaria border the Black Sea. Warships from the U.S., U.K. and other NATO allies also have made increasingly frequent visits in support of Ukraine.
Speaking before the incident, Gen. Valery Gerasimov, the chief of the General Staff of the Russian armed forces, sharply criticized the deployment of NATO warships near Russian waters.
“The moves by warships of the U.S. and its allies have been clearly provocative,” Gerasimov said at an international security conference in Moscow organized by the Defense Ministry. “It creates preconditions for incidents and doesn’t help ease tensions in the military sphere.”
He charged that the British destroyer HMS Dragon intruded into Russian waters near Crimea in October, and the U.S. destroyer USS John S. McCain violated the Russian border in the Sea of Japan in November.
In April, Russia imposed restrictions on foreign naval movements near Crimea until November in a move that drew strong complaints from Ukraine and the West. Russia rejected the criticism and noted the restrictions wouldn’t interfere with commercial shipping.
Earlier this year, Russia also bolstered its troops near the border with Ukraine and warned Kyiv against using force to reclaim control of the country’s eastern industrial heartland, where a conflict with Russia-backed separatists has killed more than 14,000 people in seven years. Moscow withdrew some of its forces after maneuvers, but Ukrainian officials say many of them remain.
Speaking earlier Wednesday via video to participants of the security conference, President Vladimir Putin expressed concern about NATO forces near Russia.
“We aren’t striving for a decisive, unilateral military advantage to tip the balance of forces in our favor,” Putin said. “But we will never allow anyone else to tip that balance.”
Russia’s relations with the West have sunk to the lowest levels since the Cold War, following Moscow’s annexation of Crimea, accusations of Russian interference with elections, hacking attacks and other tensions.
In a speech at the same conference before Wednesday’s incident, Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu said “the situation in Europe is explosive,” and accused NATO of stonewalling Russian proposals to enhance security by refraining from military exercises near the borders of Russia and alliance members.
He said “the world is rapidly sinking in a new confrontation, which is much more dangerous than during the Cold War times.”
apnews.com
By VLADIMIR ISACHENKOV and JILL LAWLESS
7-9 minutes
MOSCOW (AP) — Russia said one of its warships in the Black Sea fired warning shots and a warplane dropped bombs Wednesday to force a British destroyer out of an area near Crimea that Moscow claims as its territorial waters, but Britain denied that account and insisted its ship wasn’t fired upon.
It was the first time since the Cold War that Moscow acknowledged using live ammunition to deter a NATO warship, reflecting the growing risk of military incidents amid soaring tensions between Russia and the West.
The Russian Defense Ministry said a patrol ship fired warning shots after the HMS Defender had ignored a notice against intrusion and sailed 3 kilometers (1.6 nautical miles) into Russia’s territorial waters near Sevastopol, the main Russian naval base in Crimea. It said a Russian Su-24 bomber also dropped four bombs ahead of the vessel to persuade the Defender to change course. Minutes later, the Defender left Russian waters, the ministry said.
Russian Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Maria Zakharova denounced the “rude British provocation that defies international law,” and said London’s ambassador was being summoned. The Defense Ministry said it also called in the U.K. military attache in Moscow to protest the destroyer’s “dangerous move” and urged British authorities to investigate the crew’s actions.
Britain’s Ministry of Defense denied the Defender had been fired on or was in Russian waters, but had been in Ukrainian waters.
“No warning shots have been fired at HMS Defender,” it said in a statement. “The Royal Navy ship is conducting innocent passage through Ukrainian territorial waters in accordance with international law.”
Russia annexed Ukraine’s Crimean Peninsula in 2014, a move not recognized by most countries, gaining access to its long Black Sea coast. Russia has chafed at NATO warships visiting near Crimea as destabilizing. In April, it declared a broader area off Crimea closed to foreign naval ships.
“We believe the Russians were undertaking a gunnery exercise in the Black Sea and provided the maritime community with prior warning of their activity,” the British Ministry of Defense said. “No shots were directed at HMS Defender and we do not recognize the claim that bombs were dropped in her path.”
British Defense Secretary Ben Wallace said the Defender “carried out a routine transit from Odessa towards Georgia across the Black Sea.”
“As is normal for this route, she entered an internationally recognized traffic separation corridor,” he tweeted, adding that HMS Defender exited the corridor safely at 9:45 a.m. BST (0845 GMT; 4:45 a.m. EDT).
“As is routine, Russian vessels shadowed her passage and she was made aware of training exercises in her wider vicinity,” he added.
Speaking to Parliament’s defense committee, Wallace again denied Russia’s version of events.
“These are the things that come and go with Russia,” he said. “Disinformation, misinformation is something that we have seen regularly. We’re not surprised by it; we plan for it.”
Asked if Defender’s crew had seen or heard anything, he said “initial reports say they did hear or observe training noises somewhere to the rear of her but beyond visual range.”
“We saw the reports this morning,” said Max Blain, a spokesman for Prime Minister Boris Johnson. “It’s incorrect to say either that it was fired on or this ship was in Russian waters. HMS Defender was taking the most direct and internationally recognized route between Ukraine and Georgia.”
He emphasized that Britain, and much of the international community, does not recognize Russia’s annexation of Crimea.
Ukraine’s Foreign Minister Dmytro Kuleba said it was “clear proof of Ukraine’s position: Russia’s aggressive and provocative actions in the Black and Azov seas, its occupation and militarization of Crimea pose a lasting threat to Ukraine and allies.”
“We need a new quality of cooperation between Ukraine & NATO allies in the Black Sea,” Kuleba tweeted.
In November 2018, Russian coast guard ships fired on three Ukrainian gunboats trying to pass from the Black Sea into the Azov Sea and captured them along with 24 crewmembers. It returned the crew and the boats the following year.
HMS Defender, a Type 45 destroyer, is part of the U.K. Carrier Strike Group heading to the Indo-Pacific region. It was announced earlier this month that it would be temporarily breaking away from the group to carry out its “own set of missions” in the Black Sea.
Just before Wednesday’s incident, Defender stopped in the Ukrainian port of Odessa, where Ukrainian and British officials and industry representatives signed an agreement to collaborate on boosting Ukraine’s naval capabilities.
NATO members Turkey, Romania and Bulgaria border the Black Sea. Warships from the U.S., U.K. and other NATO allies also have made increasingly frequent visits in support of Ukraine.
Speaking before the incident, Gen. Valery Gerasimov, the chief of the General Staff of the Russian armed forces, sharply criticized the deployment of NATO warships near Russian waters.
“The moves by warships of the U.S. and its allies have been clearly provocative,” Gerasimov said at an international security conference in Moscow organized by the Defense Ministry. “It creates preconditions for incidents and doesn’t help ease tensions in the military sphere.”
He charged that the British destroyer HMS Dragon intruded into Russian waters near Crimea in October, and the U.S. destroyer USS John S. McCain violated the Russian border in the Sea of Japan in November.
In April, Russia imposed restrictions on foreign naval movements near Crimea until November in a move that drew strong complaints from Ukraine and the West. Russia rejected the criticism and noted the restrictions wouldn’t interfere with commercial shipping.
Earlier this year, Russia also bolstered its troops near the border with Ukraine and warned Kyiv against using force to reclaim control of the country’s eastern industrial heartland, where a conflict with Russia-backed separatists has killed more than 14,000 people in seven years. Moscow withdrew some of its forces after maneuvers, but Ukrainian officials say many of them remain.
Speaking earlier Wednesday via video to participants of the security conference, President Vladimir Putin expressed concern about NATO forces near Russia.
“We aren’t striving for a decisive, unilateral military advantage to tip the balance of forces in our favor,” Putin said. “But we will never allow anyone else to tip that balance.”
Russia’s relations with the West have sunk to the lowest levels since the Cold War, following Moscow’s annexation of Crimea, accusations of Russian interference with elections, hacking attacks and other tensions.
In a speech at the same conference before Wednesday’s incident, Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu said “the situation in Europe is explosive,” and accused NATO of stonewalling Russian proposals to enhance security by refraining from military exercises near the borders of Russia and alliance members.
He said “the world is rapidly sinking in a new confrontation, which is much more dangerous than during the Cold War times.”
Russia says warning shots deter UK warship; London denies it
Russia says one of its warships in the Black Sea fired warning shots and a warplane dropped bombs to force a British destroyer away from Russia’s waters near Crimea.
apnews.com
intothatgoodnight
. . .
British-EU NATO-led action - not necessarily about an *official* British attitude/perspective towards Russia, per se.
British deep state/communists - same as in many other countries - two or more power factions squabbling underneath their sovereign state labels, while their people are regularly ignored.
intothegoodnight
TheChrome
Contributing Member
Russia says warning shots deter UK warship; London denies it
By VLADIMIR ISACHENKOV and JILL LAWLESS
7-9 minutes
MOSCOW (AP) — Russia said one of its warships in the Black Sea fired warning shots and a warplane dropped bombs Wednesday to force a British destroyer out of an area near Crimea that Moscow claims as its territorial waters, but Britain denied that account and insisted its ship wasn’t fired upon.
It was the first time since the Cold War that Moscow acknowledged using live ammunition to deter a NATO warship, reflecting the growing risk of military incidents amid soaring tensions between Russia and the West.
The Russian Defense Ministry said a patrol ship fired warning shots after the HMS Defender had ignored a notice against intrusion and sailed 3 kilometers (1.6 nautical miles) into Russia’s territorial waters near Sevastopol, the main Russian naval base in Crimea. It said a Russian Su-24 bomber also dropped four bombs ahead of the vessel to persuade the Defender to change course. Minutes later, the Defender left Russian waters, the ministry said.
Russian Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Maria Zakharova denounced the “rude British provocation that defies international law,” and said London’s ambassador was being summoned. The Defense Ministry said it also called in the U.K. military attache in Moscow to protest the destroyer’s “dangerous move” and urged British authorities to investigate the crew’s actions.
Britain’s Ministry of Defense denied the Defender had been fired on or was in Russian waters, but had been in Ukrainian waters.
“No warning shots have been fired at HMS Defender,” it said in a statement. “The Royal Navy ship is conducting innocent passage through Ukrainian territorial waters in accordance with international law.”
Russia annexed Ukraine’s Crimean Peninsula in 2014, a move not recognized by most countries, gaining access to its long Black Sea coast. Russia has chafed at NATO warships visiting near Crimea as destabilizing. In April, it declared a broader area off Crimea closed to foreign naval ships.
“We believe the Russians were undertaking a gunnery exercise in the Black Sea and provided the maritime community with prior warning of their activity,” the British Ministry of Defense said. “No shots were directed at HMS Defender and we do not recognize the claim that bombs were dropped in her path.”
British Defense Secretary Ben Wallace said the Defender “carried out a routine transit from Odessa towards Georgia across the Black Sea.”
“As is normal for this route, she entered an internationally recognized traffic separation corridor,” he tweeted, adding that HMS Defender exited the corridor safely at 9:45 a.m. BST (0845 GMT; 4:45 a.m. EDT).
“As is routine, Russian vessels shadowed her passage and she was made aware of training exercises in her wider vicinity,” he added.
Speaking to Parliament’s defense committee, Wallace again denied Russia’s version of events.
“These are the things that come and go with Russia,” he said. “Disinformation, misinformation is something that we have seen regularly. We’re not surprised by it; we plan for it.”
Asked if Defender’s crew had seen or heard anything, he said “initial reports say they did hear or observe training noises somewhere to the rear of her but beyond visual range.”
“We saw the reports this morning,” said Max Blain, a spokesman for Prime Minister Boris Johnson. “It’s incorrect to say either that it was fired on or this ship was in Russian waters. HMS Defender was taking the most direct and internationally recognized route between Ukraine and Georgia.”
He emphasized that Britain, and much of the international community, does not recognize Russia’s annexation of Crimea.
Ukraine’s Foreign Minister Dmytro Kuleba said it was “clear proof of Ukraine’s position: Russia’s aggressive and provocative actions in the Black and Azov seas, its occupation and militarization of Crimea pose a lasting threat to Ukraine and allies.”
“We need a new quality of cooperation between Ukraine & NATO allies in the Black Sea,” Kuleba tweeted.
In November 2018, Russian coast guard ships fired on three Ukrainian gunboats trying to pass from the Black Sea into the Azov Sea and captured them along with 24 crewmembers. It returned the crew and the boats the following year.
HMS Defender, a Type 45 destroyer, is part of the U.K. Carrier Strike Group heading to the Indo-Pacific region. It was announced earlier this month that it would be temporarily breaking away from the group to carry out its “own set of missions” in the Black Sea.
Just before Wednesday’s incident, Defender stopped in the Ukrainian port of Odessa, where Ukrainian and British officials and industry representatives signed an agreement to collaborate on boosting Ukraine’s naval capabilities.
NATO members Turkey, Romania and Bulgaria border the Black Sea. Warships from the U.S., U.K. and other NATO allies also have made increasingly frequent visits in support of Ukraine.
Speaking before the incident, Gen. Valery Gerasimov, the chief of the General Staff of the Russian armed forces, sharply criticized the deployment of NATO warships near Russian waters.
“The moves by warships of the U.S. and its allies have been clearly provocative,” Gerasimov said at an international security conference in Moscow organized by the Defense Ministry. “It creates preconditions for incidents and doesn’t help ease tensions in the military sphere.”
He charged that the British destroyer HMS Dragon intruded into Russian waters near Crimea in October, and the U.S. destroyer USS John S. McCain violated the Russian border in the Sea of Japan in November.
In April, Russia imposed restrictions on foreign naval movements near Crimea until November in a move that drew strong complaints from Ukraine and the West. Russia rejected the criticism and noted the restrictions wouldn’t interfere with commercial shipping.
Earlier this year, Russia also bolstered its troops near the border with Ukraine and warned Kyiv against using force to reclaim control of the country’s eastern industrial heartland, where a conflict with Russia-backed separatists has killed more than 14,000 people in seven years. Moscow withdrew some of its forces after maneuvers, but Ukrainian officials say many of them remain.
Speaking earlier Wednesday via video to participants of the security conference, President Vladimir Putin expressed concern about NATO forces near Russia.
“We aren’t striving for a decisive, unilateral military advantage to tip the balance of forces in our favor,” Putin said. “But we will never allow anyone else to tip that balance.”
Russia’s relations with the West have sunk to the lowest levels since the Cold War, following Moscow’s annexation of Crimea, accusations of Russian interference with elections, hacking attacks and other tensions.
In a speech at the same conference before Wednesday’s incident, Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu said “the situation in Europe is explosive,” and accused NATO of stonewalling Russian proposals to enhance security by refraining from military exercises near the borders of Russia and alliance members.
He said “the world is rapidly sinking in a new confrontation, which is much more dangerous than during the Cold War times.”
Russia says warning shots deter UK warship; London denies it
Russia says one of its warships in the Black Sea fired warning shots and a warplane dropped bombs to force a British destroyer away from Russia’s waters near Crimea.
The main thing you you need to understand, is nothing that comes from the Russian media is true. The second thing that you need to know, is the US media is not much better. In this case, Russia has no leg to stand on from the common sense point though. They "Annexed Crimea", so anything they claim about this situation is "whiny baby garbage". Eventually Crimea will be returned by negotiation, or by force. I think it is up to Russia to decide.
Ping Jockey
Inactive
Ahhhh... you do not know the Russian. Crimea will be returned when ol Satan himself/herself ( gotta be pc ) starts offering free ice skating lessons. To try applying so called western common sense to the Russian is a fool’s errand.
I would not be surprised to see the Ukrainian border moved further west to the Dneiper River. If it does neither NATO nor the US will do anything to stop them. Except for major amounts of foot stamping, finger pointing, name calling, and a few beautifully crafted and well-spoken words from those ever-so-lovely and cheeky Brit news commentators. Maybe even throw in a few “harrumphs” in for good measure.
Love him or hate him the combined, feckless leadership of the EU, NATO, and the US couldn’t muster up a ladder high enough in the eyes of the Russian people to kiss Putin’s ass.
Melodi
Disaster Cat
This was the test and the issue - Russia claims the territory pretty much by right of conquest (and historical reasons), Ukraine says it is still their territory under Russian occupation.
So the Brits get "permission" from Ukraine to use "their" territorial waters and Russia objects strong and sends a bit more than a strongly worded letter to enforce their claims.
As my husband likes to quote "you don't really own a territory until you have it protected by a 17-year-old with a gun."
The British want cheap natural gas.
They want a pipeline through Syria but the Russian backed government of Syria said no, Thank You.
Because Russia wants to sell Europe natural gas piped through Ukraine.
When the Europeans could not get the natural gas through Syria,
They destabilized Syria destroying the country but never actually succeeding.
And destabilized the Ukraine and installed a pro EU government but created an ongoing civil war.
So the Russian sailors that retired to Crimea had an election and voted to rejoin Russia,
(because redrawing boundaries is one of the unpredictable things that happen during a civil war)
And then Russia built another pipeline to Germany through the Baltic,
which is going to really cut into the profits of the pro EU government in the Ukraine.
And through it all Russia has barely fired a shot and the shots it did fire did not hit anything.
So now the EU wants to start WWIII, so Americans can spill additional blood to save the pricks.
Last edited:
Wow. I think we went to the same school.
That is simply "not the case"
Ping Jockey
Inactive
No more brother wars.
Remember whose overpaid kid was on the board of the Ukraine Natural Gas company?
Biden
Its always about the "oil" (or natural gas)
It is really ironic that while the powers that be want you to abandon petroleum products and convert to electricity,
they at the same time demand your military run rampant across the world conquering other countries
in order to install their children in high paying jobs in the petroleum industry.
it really is ironic
they at the same time demand your military run rampant across the world conquering other countries
in order to install their children in high paying jobs in the petroleum industry.
it really is ironic
jward
passin' thru
Well, it used to be- soon it'll be all about the water- but, yeah.
jward
passin' thru
Was HMS Defender ‘targeted’ by the Russians in the Black Sea?
The Russian Defence Ministry claimed today that their airforce had dropped bombs near to HMS Defender as she passed through the Black Sea. These claims were repeated by various UK media outlets until finally denied by the Ministry of Defence. Here we summarise what took place and the background to events.
UK/Ukraine defence relationship deepens
HMS Defender left Instanbul (in company with HNLMS Eversen) on 14th June and arrived in Odesa on 18th June. The two ships were making a visit primarily to support defence engagement as the UK seeks to enhance Ukrainian security. A Memorandum of Implementation (MOI) between the UK and Ukraine was signed on board.
The MOI agreed that Babcock International will take the lead in “enhancement of capabilities on existing naval platforms, the delivery of new platforms, including fast attack missile craft, a modern frigate capability, shipborne armaments and the training of naval personnel”. Two of the RN’s Sandown class minehunters will be transferred and 8 missile boats will be constructed for the Ukrainian Navy, two of them in British shipyards. Babcock refused to confirm what “frigate capability” means but there is considerable speculation that this implies the first export success for the Type 31/Arrowhead-140.
AIS Spoofing
While Defender and Evertsen were safely alongside in Odesa, their Automatic Identification System (AIS) signals which transmit position details as an aid to maritime safety were faked. AIS showed the two ships provocatively heading directly to a position within two nautical miles of the Russian naval base at Sevastapol. Various OSINT sources reported this, briefly causing alarm, although it was quickly dismissed as a ruse, the two ships could be observed in Odesa live on harbour webcams. The manipulation of AIS data is not new but is happening more frequently. It is unclear who was behind the hack but it typical of the unattributable ‘grey zone’ misinformation activity practised by adversaries.
This is another warning to excitable OSINT enthusiasts not rely on unverified AIS information to track warship movements. Most navies only use AIS ‘honestly’ for safety purposes in confined waters and turn it off whenever they can. AIS is now frequently spoofed by various actors and is often misleading, particularly in regards to naval vessels.
Shots fired?
Defender and Evertsen sailed from Odesa on 22nd June, heading for Georgia. The planned route involved making innocent passage through the waters off Cape Fiolent on the Southern tip of Crimea, which is allowed under international law. The UK still regards Crimea as occupied and these as Ukrainian territorial waters, the MoD described the route taken by HMS Defender as an “internationally recognised traffic separation corridor”. If AIS data can be relied upon in this case, it would seem Defender was within 10 miles of the coast, about 2 miles inside territorial waters. This was an intentional FONOP – a Freedom of Navigation Operation to make the point that the Black Sea should remain subject to international norms.
It was widely reported that sources in Moscow were claiming that “HMS Defender entered Russian territorial waters and a border patrol ship fired the warning shots while an SU-24 jet dropped four bombs in HMS Defender’s path, prompting the British vessel to turn around”. This was repeated as fact by some UK media outlets which would be wiser to treat any Russian claims with extreme caution in future.
BBC Defence reporter, Johnathan Beale, is onboard Defender so there is a reliable independent witness on the spot. He said that shots were heard but they were well away from the ship. This is consistent with gunnery exercises that Russia had previously announced would be held in the area. Beale confirmed the ship has been at action stations and was being harassed by ships, aircraft with hostile warnings issued via radio. A recording of what is purported to be radio traffic between HMS Defender and Russian warships has been posted here and the Russian MoD has posted a video taken from jets flying close to the ship. The CO of Defender said that the ship detected more than 20 military aircraft close by.
Two coastguard vessels were also shadowing the destroyer and attempting to force a course change, coming as close as 100m at one point. This incident is reminiscent of when a large number of jets buzzed HMS Duncan in the Black Sea in February 2018.
Later in the day, the British Naval attache in Moscow was invited for an interview without coffee where the Russians conveyed their displeasure and handed over a communique, nicely presented in red document binder.
Russian military assertiveness appears to be on the increase. Earlier this week, the Commander of the UK Carrier Strike Group told reporters the “extent of Russian surveillance already seen has gone far beyond what the military expected”. This is a polite way of saying that their activity is already at a level that borders on harassment as the UK and its allies conduct lawful operations in international waters and airspace in the eastern Mediterranean.
The real story here is not the supposed “firing of shots” but the ongoing campaign of Russian disinformation and the harassment of warships conducting operations in keeping with legal norms. Some will try to portray this as ‘NATO provocation’, but it should be remembered who are the aggressors that invaded another nation and the Black Sea is an international waterway, not a Russian lake. Moscow’s actions may ultimately be counterproductive, its behaviour is likely to stiffen NATO resolve and lead to an increased naval presence in the region.
Posted for fair use
www.navylookout.com
The Russian Defence Ministry claimed today that their airforce had dropped bombs near to HMS Defender as she passed through the Black Sea. These claims were repeated by various UK media outlets until finally denied by the Ministry of Defence. Here we summarise what took place and the background to events.
UK/Ukraine defence relationship deepens
HMS Defender left Instanbul (in company with HNLMS Eversen) on 14th June and arrived in Odesa on 18th June. The two ships were making a visit primarily to support defence engagement as the UK seeks to enhance Ukrainian security. A Memorandum of Implementation (MOI) between the UK and Ukraine was signed on board.
The MOI agreed that Babcock International will take the lead in “enhancement of capabilities on existing naval platforms, the delivery of new platforms, including fast attack missile craft, a modern frigate capability, shipborne armaments and the training of naval personnel”. Two of the RN’s Sandown class minehunters will be transferred and 8 missile boats will be constructed for the Ukrainian Navy, two of them in British shipyards. Babcock refused to confirm what “frigate capability” means but there is considerable speculation that this implies the first export success for the Type 31/Arrowhead-140.
AIS Spoofing
While Defender and Evertsen were safely alongside in Odesa, their Automatic Identification System (AIS) signals which transmit position details as an aid to maritime safety were faked. AIS showed the two ships provocatively heading directly to a position within two nautical miles of the Russian naval base at Sevastapol. Various OSINT sources reported this, briefly causing alarm, although it was quickly dismissed as a ruse, the two ships could be observed in Odesa live on harbour webcams. The manipulation of AIS data is not new but is happening more frequently. It is unclear who was behind the hack but it typical of the unattributable ‘grey zone’ misinformation activity practised by adversaries.
This is another warning to excitable OSINT enthusiasts not rely on unverified AIS information to track warship movements. Most navies only use AIS ‘honestly’ for safety purposes in confined waters and turn it off whenever they can. AIS is now frequently spoofed by various actors and is often misleading, particularly in regards to naval vessels.
Shots fired?
Defender and Evertsen sailed from Odesa on 22nd June, heading for Georgia. The planned route involved making innocent passage through the waters off Cape Fiolent on the Southern tip of Crimea, which is allowed under international law. The UK still regards Crimea as occupied and these as Ukrainian territorial waters, the MoD described the route taken by HMS Defender as an “internationally recognised traffic separation corridor”. If AIS data can be relied upon in this case, it would seem Defender was within 10 miles of the coast, about 2 miles inside territorial waters. This was an intentional FONOP – a Freedom of Navigation Operation to make the point that the Black Sea should remain subject to international norms.
It was widely reported that sources in Moscow were claiming that “HMS Defender entered Russian territorial waters and a border patrol ship fired the warning shots while an SU-24 jet dropped four bombs in HMS Defender’s path, prompting the British vessel to turn around”. This was repeated as fact by some UK media outlets which would be wiser to treat any Russian claims with extreme caution in future.
BBC Defence reporter, Johnathan Beale, is onboard Defender so there is a reliable independent witness on the spot. He said that shots were heard but they were well away from the ship. This is consistent with gunnery exercises that Russia had previously announced would be held in the area. Beale confirmed the ship has been at action stations and was being harassed by ships, aircraft with hostile warnings issued via radio. A recording of what is purported to be radio traffic between HMS Defender and Russian warships has been posted here and the Russian MoD has posted a video taken from jets flying close to the ship. The CO of Defender said that the ship detected more than 20 military aircraft close by.
Two coastguard vessels were also shadowing the destroyer and attempting to force a course change, coming as close as 100m at one point. This incident is reminiscent of when a large number of jets buzzed HMS Duncan in the Black Sea in February 2018.
Later in the day, the British Naval attache in Moscow was invited for an interview without coffee where the Russians conveyed their displeasure and handed over a communique, nicely presented in red document binder.
Russian military assertiveness appears to be on the increase. Earlier this week, the Commander of the UK Carrier Strike Group told reporters the “extent of Russian surveillance already seen has gone far beyond what the military expected”. This is a polite way of saying that their activity is already at a level that borders on harassment as the UK and its allies conduct lawful operations in international waters and airspace in the eastern Mediterranean.
The real story here is not the supposed “firing of shots” but the ongoing campaign of Russian disinformation and the harassment of warships conducting operations in keeping with legal norms. Some will try to portray this as ‘NATO provocation’, but it should be remembered who are the aggressors that invaded another nation and the Black Sea is an international waterway, not a Russian lake. Moscow’s actions may ultimately be counterproductive, its behaviour is likely to stiffen NATO resolve and lead to an increased naval presence in the region.
Posted for fair use
Was HMS Defender ‘targeted’ by the Russians in the Black Sea? | Navy Lookout
www.navylookout.com
jward
passin' thru
:: pulls out the best silver, crystal n booze :: Bars open, fellas, whatcha gonna tell us?
Interesting note for the OSINT-ers about being adults.
"This is another warning to excitable OSINT enthusiasts not rely on unverified AIS information to track warship movements."
"Most navies only use AIS ‘honestly’ for safety purposes in confined waters and turn it off whenever they can. AIS is now frequently spoofed by various actors and is often misleading, particularly in regards to naval vessels."
As far as "invaders".
Some will try to portray this as ‘NATO provocation’, but it should be remembered who are the aggressors that invaded another nation and the Black Sea is an international waterway, not a Russian lake.
Under Obama and Biden "Community Organization" and "Voting rules", there was no aggression in Crimea.
They organized their community and held a vote - Democracy in action.
Suck it up liberals.
"This is another warning to excitable OSINT enthusiasts not rely on unverified AIS information to track warship movements."
"Most navies only use AIS ‘honestly’ for safety purposes in confined waters and turn it off whenever they can. AIS is now frequently spoofed by various actors and is often misleading, particularly in regards to naval vessels."
As far as "invaders".
Some will try to portray this as ‘NATO provocation’, but it should be remembered who are the aggressors that invaded another nation and the Black Sea is an international waterway, not a Russian lake.
Under Obama and Biden "Community Organization" and "Voting rules", there was no aggression in Crimea.
They organized their community and held a vote - Democracy in action.
Suck it up liberals.
jward
passin' thru
Chrome, you'll find readers here better versed in the historical, mid and near term causations of an event than most.
Additional familiarity with the place will undoubtedly reassure you that few, if any, need hand holding to read around
the biases and intents presented by the articles or the other posters' comments. Those, both the covert and overt, are readily clear to even the most casual readers.
We understand that the "real" story lies as much in what is not said, as what is, and in who is saying it, and why. The source materials are presented as snapshots of an event and are analyzed as such, not as tomes of the ultimate truth.
The hive mind handles the processing well
Additional familiarity with the place will undoubtedly reassure you that few, if any, need hand holding to read around
the biases and intents presented by the articles or the other posters' comments. Those, both the covert and overt, are readily clear to even the most casual readers.
We understand that the "real" story lies as much in what is not said, as what is, and in who is saying it, and why. The source materials are presented as snapshots of an event and are analyzed as such, not as tomes of the ultimate truth.
The hive mind handles the processing well
jward
passin' thru
https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/898153945721339904/O****PfR_bigger.jpg
Disclose.tv
@disclosetv
4m
JUST IN - Moscow warns UK that a repeat of an HMS Defender-style incident could lead to a full military conflict with Russia.
Ping Jockey
Inactive
That sounds very similar to, “Hi Sailor, new in town?”
jward
passin' thru
I was in Bolivia a few years back camped out at the bar in a hostel for a month and there was a continuous flow of young Israeli kids that came through. Young men and women who had finished there "service obligations". Now, those kiddos would start buying drinks and man o man the stories would flow.OMG. So not.
..this mean yall don't "really" have any interestin' stories?
Ping Jockey
Inactive
Security had been beaten into us so thoroughly that the idea of speaking about anything regarding, at least for me, my time on the boats is totally repugnant and contrary to our oaths.OMG. So not.
..this mean yall don't "really" have any interestin' stories?
I remember the first time I read, “Blind Man’s Bluff” I could not believe what my eyes were reading. I was aghast at how much just what I knew or was involved in was written down, out there for the general public to read.
I’ve got all sortsa stories, in my head, tucked away behind the veil. You can find some me interesting reading in said book referenced in last paragraph. Stories of which I can neither confirm nor deny as there are no comments ref submarine operations and all the other dogma we were supposed to say.
jward
passin' thru
Russia warns Britain it will bomb ships next time
Disclose.tv
@disclosetv
4m
JUST IN - Moscow warns UK that a repeat of an HMS Defender-style incident could lead to a full military conflict with Russia.
Guy FaulconbridgeKatya Golubkova
1/6
British Royal Navy's Type 45 destroyer HMS Defender is docked in the Black Sea port of Odessa, Ukraine June 18, 2021. REUTERS/Sergey Smolentsev
- Summary
- Russia's warns Britain over navy confrontation
- Raab: Russia being 'predictably inaccurate'
- Britain says it will always defend seafaring rights
- Russia says London is sowing barefaced lies
Russia summoned the British ambassador in Moscow for a formal diplomatic scolding after the warship breached what the Kremlin says are its territorial waters but which Britain and most of the world say belong to Ukraine.
Britain said Russia was giving an inaccurate account of the incident. No warning shots had been fired and no bombs had been dropped in the path of the Royal Navy destroyer Defender, it said.
loading
In Moscow, Russia summoned Ambassador Deborah Bronnert for a reprimand over what it said were Britain's "dangerous" action in the Black Sea - while foreign ministry spokeswoman Maria Zakharova accused London of "barefaced lies".
"We can appeal to common sense, demand respect for international law, and if that doesn't work, we can bomb," Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov told Russian news agencies.
Ryabkov, referring to Moscow's version of events in which a Russian aircraft bombed the path of the British destroyer, said that in future bombs would be sent "not only in its path, but also on target."
The Black Sea, which Russia uses to project its power in the Mediterranean, has for centuries been a flashpoint between Russia and its competitors such as Turkey, France, Britain and the United States.
Russia seized and annexed the Crimea peninsula from Ukraine in 2014 and considers areas around its coast to be Russian waters. Western countries deem the Crimea to be part of Ukraine and reject Russia's claim to the seas around it.
Prime Minister Boris Johnson said the British warship, which was travelling from the Ukrainian port of Odessa to the Georgian port of Batumi, was acting in accordance with the law and had been in international waters.
"These are Ukrainian waters and it was entirely right to use them to go from A to B," Johnson said. British Defence Minister Ben Wallace accused Russian pilots of conducting unsafe aircraft manoeuvres 500 feet (152 m) above the warship.
"The Royal Navy will always uphold international law and will not accept unlawful interference with innocent passage," Wallace said.
Under international law of the sea, innocent passage permits a vessel to pass through another state's territorial waters so long as this does not affect its security.
Britain disputed the Russian version of events, with Foreign Secretary Dominic Raab calling it "predictably inaccurate".
BLACK SEA DISPUTE
During its 2008 war with Georgia, Russia bristled at U.S. warships operating in the Black Sea, and in April the United States cancelled the deployment of two warships to the area.
Ties between London and Moscow have been on ice since the 2018 poisoning with a Soviet-developed nerve agent known as Novichok of ex-double agent Sergei Skripal, a mole who betrayed hundreds of Russian agents to Britain's MI6 foreign spy service.
The British destroyer visited the Ukrainian port of Odessa this week, where an agreement was signed for Britain to help upgrade Ukraine's navy.
Russia said it had ventured as far as 3 km (2 miles) into Russian waters near Cape Fiolent, a landmark on Crimea's southern coast near the port of Sevastopol, headquarters of the Russian Navy's Black Sea fleet.
Britain's BBC released footage from the ship showing a Russian coast guard warning that he would shoot if the British ship did not change course.
"If you don't change the course, I'll fire," a heavily accented Russian voice said in English to the British ship. The BBC said shots were fired and that as many as 20 Russian aircraft were "buzzing" the British ship.
Britain said the shots were part of a Russian gunnery exercise. Russia released footage filmed from a Russian SU-24 bomber flying close to the British ship.
"These aircraft posed no immediate threat to HMS Defender, but some of these manoeuvres were neither safe nor professional," Britain's Wallace said.
Reporting by Guy Faulconbridge; Editing by Kate Holton
/cloudfront-us-east-2.images.arcpublishing.com/reuters/T4LSD6C7QROIHOK7AWQOTAGJ4A.jpg)
Russia warns Britain it will bomb ships next time
Russia warned Britain on Thursday that it would bomb British naval vessels in the Black Sea if there were any further provocative actions by the British navy off the coast of Russia-annexed Crimea.
www.reuters.com
Russia warns Britain it will bomb ships next time
Guy FaulconbridgeKatya Golubkova
4 minute read
1/6
British Royal Navy's Type 45 destroyer HMS Defender is docked in the Black Sea port of Odessa, Ukraine June 18, 2021. REUTERS/Sergey Smolentsev
- Summary
LONDON, June 24 (Reuters) - Russia warned Britain on Thursday that it would bomb British naval vessels in the Black Sea if there were any further provocative actions by the British navy off the coast of Russia-annexed Crimea.
- Russia's warns Britain over navy confrontation
- Raab: Russia being 'predictably inaccurate'
- Britain says it will always defend seafaring rights
- Russia says London is sowing barefaced lies
Russia summoned the British ambassador in Moscow for a formal diplomatic scolding after the warship breached what the Kremlin says are its territorial waters but which Britain and most of the world say belong to Ukraine.
Britain said Russia was giving an inaccurate account of the incident. No warning shots had been fired and no bombs had been dropped in the path of the Royal Navy destroyer Defender, it said.
loading
In Moscow, Russia summoned Ambassador Deborah Bronnert for a reprimand over what it said were Britain's "dangerous" action in the Black Sea - while foreign ministry spokeswoman Maria Zakharova accused London of "barefaced lies".
"We can appeal to common sense, demand respect for international law, and if that doesn't work, we can bomb," Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov told Russian news agencies.
Ryabkov, referring to Moscow's version of events in which a Russian aircraft bombed the path of the British destroyer, said that in future bombs would be sent "not only in its path, but also on target."
The Black Sea, which Russia uses to project its power in the Mediterranean, has for centuries been a flashpoint between Russia and its competitors such as Turkey, France, Britain and the United States.
Russia seized and annexed the Crimea peninsula from Ukraine in 2014 and considers areas around its coast to be Russian waters. Western countries deem the Crimea to be part of Ukraine and reject Russia's claim to the seas around it.
Prime Minister Boris Johnson said the British warship, which was travelling from the Ukrainian port of Odessa to the Georgian port of Batumi, was acting in accordance with the law and had been in international waters.
"These are Ukrainian waters and it was entirely right to use them to go from A to B," Johnson said. British Defence Minister Ben Wallace accused Russian pilots of conducting unsafe aircraft manoeuvres 500 feet (152 m) above the warship.
"The Royal Navy will always uphold international law and will not accept unlawful interference with innocent passage," Wallace said.
Under international law of the sea, innocent passage permits a vessel to pass through another state's territorial waters so long as this does not affect its security.
Britain disputed the Russian version of events, with Foreign Secretary Dominic Raab calling it "predictably inaccurate".
BLACK SEA DISPUTE
During its 2008 war with Georgia, Russia bristled at U.S. warships operating in the Black Sea, and in April the United States cancelled the deployment of two warships to the area.
Ties between London and Moscow have been on ice since the 2018 poisoning with a Soviet-developed nerve agent known as Novichok of ex-double agent Sergei Skripal, a mole who betrayed hundreds of Russian agents to Britain's MI6 foreign spy service.
The British destroyer visited the Ukrainian port of Odessa this week, where an agreement was signed for Britain to help upgrade Ukraine's navy.
Russia said it had ventured as far as 3 km (2 miles) into Russian waters near Cape Fiolent, a landmark on Crimea's southern coast near the port of Sevastopol, headquarters of the Russian Navy's Black Sea fleet.
Britain's BBC released footage from the ship showing a Russian coast guard warning that he would shoot if the British ship did not change course.
"If you don't change the course, I'll fire," a heavily accented Russian voice said in English to the British ship. The BBC said shots were fired and that as many as 20 Russian aircraft were "buzzing" the British ship.
Britain said the shots were part of a Russian gunnery exercise. Russia released footage filmed from a Russian SU-24 bomber flying close to the British ship.
"These aircraft posed no immediate threat to HMS Defender, but some of these manoeuvres were neither safe nor professional," Britain's Wallace said.
Reporting by Guy Faulconbridge; Editing by Kate Holton
Russia warns Britain it will bomb ships next time
Russia warned Britain on Thursday that it would bomb British naval vessels in the Black Sea if there were any further provocative actions by the British navy off the coast of Russia-annexed Crimea.
Of course Russia will talk tough in order to validate it's brazen "annexation" of Crimea which is still internationally recognized as belonging to the Ukraine.
Then we can reliably await the Associated Press to swoop in with their preconceived political narrative of "Russia Bad" that permeated the entire domestic election cycle and continues to this day.
Brazen . . . well hell yea it was brazen. that does not make it bad. it was non violent. they had elections just like Biden's recent election as President. Could have been crooked as hell . . . but apparently crooked does not matter.
Russia gonna give up Crimea when Democrats give up the White House
TheChrome
Contributing Member
Im not sure what that's about. Even though I'm new to this board, I'm a huge poster on others. This isn't my first rodeo, so let's start with the fact that I speak Russian. I am probably more versed on historical, mid and near term causations than most on this board!
If you really want to get into the mechanics of this situation, you really do have to look at history. There have been 12 Turko-Russia wars. Turkey, although accused of being buddies with Russia, serves it's own interests. Erdogan is trying to rebuild the Ottoman Empire, just as Putin is trying to rebuild the Soviet Union. Turkey does not like the occupation of Crimea, and is probably willing to go to war to free it's historical ties to the Tatars.
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I'm getting really confused
How far out do the Native American waters extend?
Did we let the Natives have a vote on whether to be "annexed"?
Then there's the whole "possession is some percentage of the law" thing.
I think I need a double-standard disgrontificator.
Wait, orange man bad and Russia bad.
The government and their media seek truth.
Epstein killed himself, and BeijingBiden got 81 million votes.
There, now I'm back on track.
How far out do the Native American waters extend?
Did we let the Natives have a vote on whether to be "annexed"?
Then there's the whole "possession is some percentage of the law" thing.
I think I need a double-standard disgrontificator.
Wait, orange man bad and Russia bad.
The government and their media seek truth.
Epstein killed himself, and BeijingBiden got 81 million votes.
There, now I'm back on track.
Ping Jockey
Inactive
Your being more versed on near and mid-term causations than most on this board is due to your ability to converse in Russian? Hmmm... new one on me. I suppose I should brush up on my conversational Russian so I can catch up to your royal highness.
TheChrome
Contributing Member
The Topic is:
Russia fires warning shots at #British destroyer in Black Sea A Russian SU-24 jet also dropped bombs
Mr. Arrogant veteran member.
Ping Jockey
Inactive
Then I suggest you stick to the subject of the thread and quit imbibing us with your vast historical knowledge of Turkish/Russian antics which, by the way, have nothing to do with the Russians firing warning shots at the stupid brits.
Hmmm... I must have missed something in language school ref speaking conversant Russian and its ability to acquire historical knowledge through osmosis.
TheChrome
Contributing Member
Look, I posted a comment. People on the board started making derogatory comments to me. I have a right to defend myself. As far as I'm concerned, you are a nobody and should leave the board if you are like these yoyos.
"Turkish/Russian antics which, by the way, have nothing to do with the Russians firing warning shots at the stupid brits."
This is not true. Turkey=NATO=Britain=US
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