CORONA Main Coronavirus thread

Samuel Adams

Samuel Adams

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Countrymouse said:
And when this unrest comes---

folks, HERE is a REAL scenario for that "Martial Law" you've all been talking about.

As for "not having enough soldiers" --- well, add in ALL LE personnel, all National Guard--even all private security guards, HIRED for this purpose---

And a terrified population that WANTS order, WANTS "fixes"---

And remember how EASY it was, for the authorities to SHUT DOWN BOSTON after the bomb attack there?

This is a PERFECT opportunity for the power-grabbers....

if you want to go into REALLY woo territory---imagine (God Forbid) if DJT got it--and then the Damocrats say that "in this national crisis, we MUST have stable leadership"--so boom out the window goes the Constitutional guidelines re Presidential succession (why not? What part of the Constitution have they obeyed so far? They have RAPED the Constitution, for their own ends) and onto the scene walks the strongest "I'm the big boss here" who fights his'/her way to the top of the liberal pile....
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Americans will quickly forget all about Chinese, Russian and Nazi Germany responses, tactics and draconianism when the gloves come off the US tyranny machine.

No population on earth has been longer and more intensely coddled to this very (intended) end.
 
T

Thinwater

Firearms Manufacturer
Troke said:
I would guess a lot of people are in that philosophical position. Example is the Super Bowl. Shut the sucker down or ignore the problem. Because right now there seem to be only two positions: 100% full bore shut everything down. Or watch and wait.
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Fight, flight or freeze. The three responses when faced with an imminent threat.

I don't think the Superbowl is much compared to the normal USA air traffic every day. Per the FAA, 2.7 Million passengers fly here under their control every day. Shutting that down will be the ultimate dot.
 
Seeker22

Seeker22

Has No Life - Lives on TB
bw said:
I accept this even without the pronouncement of a researcher.
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In 2007 I lost a bunch of puppies to a Parvo virus epidemic. It was bad and a strain that Vets had never seen before. As I read the comments on nCov and how it behaves, I always have in the back of my mind that Parvo to compare it with. Probably apples and oranges, but it's what I have. I am not medical minded enough to see similarities between Parvo virus and nCov, but wonder if there are any? It would be a game changer for sure.

Parvo virus stays in the soil and can pop up again in a healthy dog. Even one that had been recently vaxed for it. That is what happened. The stuff was in the soil in the yard and I had no idea when I moved there. I killed my grand pups with that decision. Who is to say that nCov will not live in the soil as well? Too many questions without correct answers at this point. I fear the only way to obtain the answers is to walk where Angels fear to tread.
 
dioptase

dioptase

Veteran Member

Please God let this be true (and not them jumping the gun, claiming bragging rights for a "cure").

(This was in response to Trivium Pursuit's article link in post # 7072. Sorry, I can't figure out how the quote works, it's not like other boards I am on.)
 
T

Telescope Steve

Veteran Member
Right now the official numbers are 305 dead, and 348 recovered. We know that the numbers from China are not accurate. That is why I am starting to pay attention to the rates of viral spread in the other countries more than in China. I expect that any country that is overwhelmed with cases could no keep an accurate count.

Any new diseases from China will not be spread very fast because so many other countries are restricting travel from China. So, that should be helpful for a while.

Here is the link to show where I got the death and recovery rates.

ArcGIS Dashboards

ArcGIS Dashboards
gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com
 
O

Old Gray Mare

TB Fanatic
Thinwater said:
Fight, flight or freeze. The three responses when faced with an imminent threat.

I don't think the Superbowl is much compared to the normal USA air traffic every day. Per the FAA, 2.7 Million passengers fly here under their control every day. Shutting that down will be the ultimate dot.
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Much as I like them, I find the Trump rallies concerning.

While I agree we should get out people home, why we still have flights to and from an area with this dangerous an infection running around uncontained is above my pay grade.
 
Countrymouse

Countrymouse

Country exile in the city
Chapulin said:
Back in one of our previous outbreaks the comment was made that a virus that was too deadly would kill its own outbreak. The one to fear had a lower kill ratio and would spread more effectively. Rethinking this today, makes me think the weaker virus would take out the weaker parts of the population. A much longer infestation and higher total deaths. Not good for a JIT economy.

Chap
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Consider, however, an earlier post reporting that HAVING this virus does NOT confer "immunity" (as is generally true with viruses, since they mutate so rapidly).

The post said that you can recover from nCoV--then get it AGAIN---and AGAIN---

I have had pneumonia 4 times (there's something in my body genetics that apparently makes me vulnerable to it---1st time I was only in my 20's)--and EACH time left some lung scarring---and the first two times were relatively light cases.

This is a MAJOR pneumonia---apparently accompanied by cytokine storm in the later stages.

IF one survives it, inevitably one will be LEFT with lung SCARRING---and if you can get it again and again --

How can this thing "find" a "burnout" point?
 
dioptase

dioptase

Veteran Member
And if that one patient really did get it just by going through an airport... That makes me feel at risk not only for exposure at Costco (or anywhere else locally), but also (especially?) when I travel out of state about 10 days from now, to a large convention. :shkr:

Fwiw, earlier this week I had to go to the doctor (dermatology appointment) and there were signs at the reception desk for screening anyone who had been to China, who had the following symptoms, etc. (This was before the first case was announced in our area.) Doc was wearing a face mask and eye protection, so at least this one medical group was already taking precautions.
 
D

Dozdoats

On TB every waking moment
I can't figure out how the quote works, it's not like other boards I am on

Don't overlook the basics, plain old Copy And Paste still works just fine. See? :D And you can turn italics off and on in the bar at the top of the reply field.
 
almost ready

almost ready

Inactive
Doomer Doug said:
Look. I trained s a USArmy combat medic back in the fall of 1983 YOM KIPPUR WAR ANYBODY? I trained at Fort Sam Houston in San Antonio. Damn I hate these cell phone keyboards. Make that October of 1973. You have a new ie novel virus infecting a virgin population with no immunity and using the airborne vector and with carriers showing ,some of them anyway, no symptoms, shedding viral load and flying around the globe will nilly. Yep, this virus is about as bad as it CAN, NOT WILL GET, BUT CAN F GET AND IT WILL BE CLEARER BY VALENTINE'S DAY whether we are going worst case. So sit back, pop a brewski, and wait for the end of the world. or not!!
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Yeah, actually this is a mash up of all the worst case scenarios from a horror flick. On the bright side, the infected in Germany appear to have received only colds, not even particularly bad colds. We wait and watch.
 
O

Old Gray Mare

TB Fanatic
Countrymouse said:
Consider, however, an earlier post reporting that HAVING this virus does NOT confer "immunity" (as is generally true with viruses, since they mutate so rapidly).

The post said that you can recover from nCoV--then get it AGAIN---and AGAIN---

I have had pneumonia 4 times (there's something in my body genetics that apparently makes me vulnerable to it---1st time I was only in my 20's)--and EACH time left some lung scarring---and the first two times were relatively light cases.

This is a MAJOR pneumonia---apparently accompanied by cytokine storm in the later stages.

IF one survives it, inevitably one will be LEFT with lung SCARRING---and if you can get it again and again --

How can this thing "find" a "burnout" point?
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Part of the problem and answer maybe tied to: why can you get it again? Is it because it doesn't imbue immunity after infection or are their multiput stains in circulation? Both? I don't know if there is enough research at this point to answer the questions.
 
Countrymouse

Countrymouse

Country exile in the city
Old Gray Mare said:
Part of the problem and answer maybe tied to: why can you get it again? Is it because it doesn't imbue immunity after infection or are their multiput stains in circulation? Both? I don't know if there is enough research at this point to answer the questions.
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If I remember my Biology classes right---

It's a VIRUS. I don't believe your body CAN produce antibodies to effectively guard against a VIRUS. Here's why:

Your body manufactures antibodies EXACTLY MADE TO MATCH the genetic code of the ONE TYPE of virus it is dealing with.

That's how your immune system makes you recover--but ONLY for that ONE SPECIFIC GENETIC MAKEUP for that ONE SPECIFIC VIRUS.

Plus, viruses are not truly "alive" in the cellular sense---they are like a half-complete entity, as far as the cells of which they are made---they CANNOT survive alone for long (they lack the proper cellular components necessary for independent survival) outside of a WHOLE cell to latch on to--they are basically PARASITES.

Also, viruses are notoriously UNSTABLE when it comes to reproducing themselves--they take over the reproductive functions in the cells of their hosts to make enormous amounts of "copies" of themselves--but their system is flawed--or sometimes designed---to CHANGE the RNA WHILE reproducing, so that over time the new viruses created are genetically DIFFERENT from the original.

So, if the Virus MUTATES---if it changes JUST enough, that the body no longer recognizes it as the SAME virus---it's back to square one and you body has to start all over again, fighting it.

This is why (so far) we've found no "cure" for the "common cold"--the virus is CONSTANTLY mutating.

The reason you get immunity for a BACTERIAL infection is that BACTERIA--unlike viruses--DO NOT CHANGE their genetic makeup.

Bacteria are complete cells, complete in themselves, unlike a virus--they are LIVING entities--and therefore an Anti-BIOTIC (literally means "anti-life") injection is able to help the body's immune system as it fights them. (though they need to latch on to HOST cells to replicate; iirc, they lack the right cellular systems to reproduce and that's why they need a host--but I'm probably remembering that wrong).

If your doctor prescribes anti-BIOTICS when you have a virus, (anti-BIOTIC iow Anti-BACTERIAL--anti-LIVING organisms) it's not to cure the VIRUS, but to treat (or prevent) SECONDARY infection with a BACTERIAL infection on TOP OF the viral one.

I'm not sure how that applies, however, in cases like the Polio "virus"---unless that particular virus is more STABLE--and so a broad-spectrum vaccine WAS able to be produced for it? (Medic?)
 
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GammaRat

GammaRat

Veteran Member
Old Gray Mare said:
Part of the problem and answer maybe tied to: why can you get it again? Is it because it doesn't imbue immunity after infection or are their multiput stains in circulation? Both? I don't know if there is enough research at this point to answer the questions.
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It depends upon how quickly the virus mutates, and what changes during that mutation. At a certain point, your body's defenses no longer see it as the same virus.
 
dioptase

dioptase

Veteran Member
How could they know already that you can "get it again"? That sounds like a re-infection to me, which doesn't mesh with my understanding unless this virus can rapidly mutate. (Maybe, since the common cold is also a cornona virus, they are modeling it on that? But even cold viruses don't mutate instantaneously.) Or maybe it's just a relapse of the same virus, because it never totally cleared the body? :confused:
 
R

raven

TB Fanatic
They say that the first infection was Dec 1.
And the first announcement was Dec 31.
Jan 9 first reported death
Jan 14 international spread
Jan 23 Wuhan Quarantined
Jan 24 Hospitals are overwhelmed
Feb 2 first death outside China
Feb 2 US bans foreign citizens from affected area.

It took 7-8 weeks (Dec 1 to Jan 23) for the Chinese Healthcare System to collapse.
So, pick your start date for the first contagious person to enter the US and add 8 weeks.
 
TxGal

TxGal

Day by day
dioptase said:
Please God let this be true (and not them jumping the gun, claiming bragging rights for a "cure").

(This was in response to Trivium Pursuit's article link in post # 7072. Sorry, I can't figure out how the quote works, it's not like other boards I am on.)
Click to expand...


Just hit 'reply' and give it a second, it will load the quoted comment you are replying to. We're all adjusting to the new software :-)
 
Trivium Pursuit

Trivium Pursuit

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Countrymouse said:
It's a VIRUS. I don't believe your body CAN produce antibodies to effectively guard against a VIRUS. Here's why:

Your body manufactures antibodies EXACTLY MADE TO MATCH the genetic code of the ONE TYPE of virus it is dealing with.

That's how your immune system makes you recover--but ONLY for that ONE SPECIFIC GENETIC MAKEUP for that ONE SPECIFIC VIRUS.

So, if the Virus MUTATES---if it changes JUST enough, that the body no longer recognizes it as the SAME virus---it's back to square one and you body has to start all over again, fighting it.

This is why (so far) we've found no "cure" for the "common cold"--the virus is CONSTANTLY mutating.

The reason you get immunity for a BACTERIAL infection is that BACTERIA--unlike viruses--DO NOT CHANGE their genetic makeup.

I'm not sure how that applies, however, in cases like the Polio "virus"---unless that particular virus is more STABLE--and so a broad-spectrum vaccine WAS able to be produced for it? (Medic?)
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Well, one of the 'weird things' about this bug might be a good thing, in this regard. If the Indians are correct in that there are several insertions of HIV in this thing, I believe that implies 2 things. First, that's probably why the HIV-related treatment probably saved that person in Thailand. Second, it may be that, while other characteristics of the virus may mutate, the HIV parts may remain the same. So that either your system would recognize the HIV parts the second time and be able to fight it, or the HIV treament would still work. Just theorizing here.
 
bw

bw

Fringe Ranger
Countrymouse said:
The reason you get immunity for a BACTERIAL infection is that BACTERIA--unlike viruses--DO NOT CHANGE their genetic makeup.
Click to expand...

Bacteria evolve, but not as quickly as a virus.

The key to immunity is the part of the virus that your immune system recognizes. If your immune system is able to recognize some part of the virus that remains relatively stable, then you will have an immune response when your system encounters that virus again. If your system happens to register a more volatile part of the virus genome, then if that part changes before your next encounter with it, your immune system won't recognize it and be prepared to counter it.
 
bw

bw

Fringe Ranger
raven said:
It took 7-8 weeks (Dec 1 to Jan 23) for the Chinese Healthcare System to collapse.
So, pick your start date for the first contagious person to enter the US and add 8 weeks.
Click to expand...

Americans don't typically crowd as much as Chinese, so it MAY travel more slowly here.
 
Melodi

Melodi

Disaster Cat
The drugs being used are antivirals, they were first used with HIV patients but have shown promise against a number of viruses including Hepatitis C.

So far the evidence Nightwolf has seen (again so far) is that the "HIV" connection to this is a combination of a lot of viruses have similar signatures (which may or may not mean anything depending on where and what they are) and the misunderstanding and mistranslations of the use of already existing antiviral drugs that are used to TREAT HIV, also being used to TREAT this new virus.
 
R

raven

TB Fanatic
Countrymouse said:
So...if I'm understanding right---ALL he did was TRANSFER FLIGHTS in an airport?
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He did what everyone does after a flight longer than 8 hours. Made a beeline for the bathroom to take a dump.
And of course the very next thing he did was buy some food to fill the empty hole.
Corona Chan got him going and coming.
(I know people, women in particular, that seem to have some psychological need to visit every restroom in every business they visit when they go out. For those of you with that particular mental condition . . . make a will)
 
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T

Thinwater

Firearms Manufacturer
Countrymouse said:
If I remember my Biology classes right---

It's a VIRUS. I don't believe your body CAN produce antibodies to effectively guard against a VIRUS. Here's why:

Your body manufactures antibodies EXACTLY MADE TO MATCH the genetic code of the ONE TYPE of virus it is dealing with.

That's how your immune system makes you recover--but ONLY for that ONE SPECIFIC GENETIC MAKEUP for that ONE SPECIFIC VIRUS.

Plus, viruses are not truly "alive" in the cellular sense---they are like a half-complete entity, as far as the cells of which they are made---they CANNOT survive alone for long (they lack the proper cellular components necessary for independent survival) outside of a WHOLE cell to latch on to--they are basically PARASITES.

Also, viruses are notoriously UNSTABLE when it comes to reproducing themselves--they take over the reproductive functions in the cells of their hosts to make enormous amounts of "copies" of themselves--but their system is flawed--or sometimes designed---to CHANGE the RNA WHILE reproducing, so that over time the new viruses created are genetically DIFFERENT from the original.

So, if the Virus MUTATES---if it changes JUST enough, that the body no longer recognizes it as the SAME virus---it's back to square one and you body has to start all over again, fighting it.

This is why (so far) we've found no "cure" for the "common cold"--the virus is CONSTANTLY mutating.

The reason you get immunity for a BACTERIAL infection is that BACTERIA--unlike viruses--DO NOT CHANGE their genetic makeup.

Bacteria are complete cells, complete in themselves, unlike a virus--they are LIVING entities--and therefore an Anti-BIOTIC (literally means "anti-life") injection is able to help the body's immune system as it fights them. (though they need to latch on to HOST cells to replicate; iirc, they lack the right cellular systems to reproduce and that's why they need a host--but I'm probably remembering that wrong).

If your doctor prescribes anti-BIOTICS when you have a virus, (anti-BIOTIC iow Anti-BACTERIAL--anti-LIVING organisms) it's not to cure the VIRUS, but to treat (or prevent) SECONDARY infection with a BACTERIAL infection on TOP OF the viral one.

I'm not sure how that applies, however, in cases like the Polio "virus"---unless that particular virus is more STABLE--and so a broad-spectrum vaccine WAS able to be produced for it? (Medic?)
Click to expand...
There are different kinds of virons. Some are RNA based, some DNA and some are super stable, like polio, others not so much, like rinoviruses. That's why the common cold cant be stopped, it always changes. Polio could be cured because they were always the same. Coronoviruses constantly change.
 
Countrymouse

Countrymouse

Country exile in the city
dioptase said:
How could they know already that you can "get it again"? That sounds like a re-infection to me, which doesn't mesh with my understanding unless this virus can rapidly mutate. (Maybe, since the common cold is also a cornona virus, they are modeling it on that? But even cold viruses don't mutate instantaneously.) Or maybe it's just a relapse of the same virus, because it never totally cleared the body? :confused:
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Dioptase--see my post 7090 above. That's how I remember it works, from my high-school Biology--so maybe Medic or other health professionals on the board and jump in & correct where I remember it wrong, as to the difference between viruses and bacteria.

I remember this so vividly, after 50 years, because the day in my high-school biology class when I finally understood the DIFFERENCE between the way viruses act and the way bacteria do, I was HORRIFIED. It made a huge impression on me to realize that viruses can never be "truly" conquered -- or a vaccine against them successfully produced-- because of the way they CHANGE so rapidly. I remember thinking it's a wonder viruses haven't wiped out humanity, by now.

But I think viruses--in their NATURAL state---are SELF-limiting--they are INCOMPLETE entities (I don't think you can even apply the word "organism" to them, and they are not strictly speaking "alive"--I remember that from my Biology class, as the teacher made a point of reiterating that)--

BUT these are NOT "natural" viruses---they are GENETICALLY ENGINEERED---MADE to be more "sustainable" than "natural" viruses (probably because they WERE intended for a BIOWARFARE use)---which is why they are SO MUCH MORE VIRULENT--and dangerous....
 
Trivium Pursuit

Trivium Pursuit

Has No Life - Lives on TB
raven said:
They say that the first infection was Dec 1.
And the first announcement was Dec 31.
Jan 9 first reported death
Jan 14 international spread
Jan 23 Wuhan Quarantined
Jan 24 Hospitals are overwhelmed
Feb 2 first death outside China
Feb 2 US bans foreign citizens from affected area.

It took 7-8 weeks (Dec 1 to Jan 23) for the Chinese Healthcare System to collapse.
So, pick your start date for the first contagious person to enter the US and add 8 weeks.
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If the US and China were identical, this algorithm would be spot on. Unlike the US, however, 3-500 million or more Chinese traveling for their New Year, combined with heavy use of open 'squatting' latrines made China a far more virulent 'environment', for lack of a better word. The great unknown would be how many more weeks to add beyond 8 to watch. Thailand and the Phillipines are somewhat better than China, but I would think Germany would be the more accurate comparison. We do have 2.7 million passenger flights per day, but I expect that would still take 100-200 days at that level to match the travel the Chinese did in their New Year season.
 
M

Matt

Veteran Member
I would equate the odds of post infection immunity and vaccine success to that of the common cold.....which is also a corona virus.

I have yet to see a vax and I catch that miserable bitch every year.
 
mzkitty

mzkitty

I give up.
I have no idea WTF this is all about. Feel free to dig:

1580659650685.png

Details here, scroll down:

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The latest Tweets from #SOULWAR ✝ (@CatesDuane). TRUTH, LOGIC & REASON are my Holy Trinity & I defend them without apology. Program Yourself & SOAR #DigitalSoldier. Support my Works at https://t.co/byIiO1Lolk. CATES COMMAND CENTER
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dioptase

dioptase

Veteran Member
Countrymouse said:
Dioptase--see my post 7090 above. That's how I remember it works, from my high-school Biology--so maybe Medic or other health professionals on the board and jump in & correct where I remember it wrong, as to the difference between viruses and bacteria.

I remember this so vividly, after 50 years, because the day in my high-school biology class when I finally understood the DIFFERENCE between the way viruses act and the way bacteria do, I was HORRIFIED. It made a huge impression on me to realize that viruses can never be "truly" conquered -- or a vaccine against them successfully produced-- because of the way they CHANGE so rapidly. I remember thinking it's a wonder viruses haven't wiped out humanity, by now.

But I think viruses--in their NATURAL state---are SELF-limiting--they are INCOMPLETE entities (I don't think you can even apply the word "organism" to them, and they are not strictly speaking "alive"--I remember that from my Biology class, as the teacher made a point of reiterating that)--

BUT these are NOT "natural" viruses---they are GENETICALLY ENGINEERED---MADE to be more "sustainable" than "natural" viruses (probably because they WERE intended for a BIOWARFARE use)---which is why they are SO MUCH MORE VIRULENT--and dangerous....
Click to expand...

Yes, I understand well the differences between viruses and bacteria, and I also understand that some viruses are (as another poster put it) "stable", whereas others (like the flu) mutate from season to season.

My point here is that we've only had this virus in circulation for what, 1-2 months tops now? So what exactly do they MEAN by "you can get re-infected"? If they are only projecting/expecting a mutation rate similar to the cold virus, then yes, I guess I can see that (not that it helps us any). But if they are ALREADY seeing patients with re-infections, that suggests some horrible things... As in, either the patient's immune system can't get it up to fight off an infection it should recognize and be able to defeat (because it has seen it before), OR the virus has already rapidly (more so than is usual for that class of viruses) mutated into something different, such that the patient's immune system doesn't recognize it and can't fight it. Either one is bad news.
 
Countrymouse

Countrymouse

Country exile in the city
dioptase said:
Yes, I understand well the differences between viruses and bacteria, and I also understand that some viruses are (as another poster put it) "stable", whereas others (like the flu) mutate from season to season.

My point here is that we've only had this virus in circulation for what, 1-2 months tops now? So what exactly do they MEAN by "you can get re-infected"? If they are only projecting/expecting a mutation rate similar to the cold virus, then yes, I guess I can see that (not that it helps us any). But if they are ALREADY seeing patients with re-infections, that suggests some horrible things... As in, either the patient's immune system can't get it up to fight off an infection it should recognize and be able to defeat (because it has seen it before), OR the virus has already rapidly (more so than is usual for that class of viruses) mutated into something different, such that the patient's immune system doesn't recognize it and can't fight it. Either one is bad news.
Click to expand...


I believe it actually IS mutating that fast.

I believe it was built into it to do so---AS a biowarfare virus.
 
Countrymouse

Countrymouse

Country exile in the city
mzkitty said:
View attachment 181408

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The latest Tweets from #SOULWAR ✝ (@CatesDuane). TRUTH, LOGIC & REASON are my Holy Trinity & I defend them without apology. Program Yourself & SOAR #DigitalSoldier. Support my Works at https://t.co/byIiO1Lolk. CATES COMMAND CENTER
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Click to expand...


This man seems to be the "contact point" for the Chinese couple in Canada who were the actual ones who SENT the corona virus under experimentation there, to the high-security lab (which had been around a while, not a new lab, from what i understood) in Wuhan.
 
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