INTL India - China border crisis (Main Thread)

danielboon

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Chinese Inscribe Huge Symbol, Map Onto Disputed Territory In Pangong New Delhi:
In a claim to disputed territory, Chinese forces in the contested Fingers region of Ladakh's Pangong Lake have inscribed a massive Mandarin symbol and map of China onto the ground they occupy.

The inscriptions, located between 'Finger 4' and 'Finger 5' measure approximately 81 metres in length and 25 metres in breadth and are large enough to be clearly spotted by passing imagery satellites. Earlier this week, Wang Hajiang, the overall commander of Chinese forces in Tibet was photographed repainting the character of 'China' in a frontier position along the India-China boundary.

'Fingers' in the region refers to the spurs which extend to the banks of the high-altitude Pangong Lake. India believes it has the right to patrol from 'Finger 1' to 'Finger 8' while China believes it has rights to patrol from 'Finger 8' to 'Finger 4'. At the moment, 'Finger 4' is the boundary between the two sides after violent skirmishes between soldiers of both sides in May in which dozens of Indian soldiers were attacked with weapons such as batons wrapped with barbed wire. Chinese forces, deployed in significant numbers at 'Finger 4' no longer permit Indian soldiers from patrolling in the direction of 'Finger 8'.

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India-China: The Pangong Lake face-off site. Click here for a high resolution image
The images, acquired by NDTV from Planet Labs, shows a massive consolidation of Chinese forces in the region where Indian soldiers are being stopped from patrolling after violent skirmishes in May in which dozens of Indian soldiers are believed to have been injured.

At least 186 pre-fabricated huts, shelters and tents of varying sizes are visible in the new images with the Chinese occupying areas not just along the bank of the lake but 8 kilometres along a ridge-line which extends to Chinese territory. A pier with two Chinese fast interceptor craft is visible near 'Finger 5'. There is significant Chinese construction activity visible along 'Finger 4', though no clear evidence of the Chinese moving towards Indian positions between 'Finger 1' and 'Finger 3'.

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At least 186 Chinese pre-fabricated huts, shelters and tents visible between 'Finger 4' and 'Finger 6'. Click here for a high resolution image
On Sunday, Prime Minister Narendra Modi indirectly referred to Chinese aggression in the region without directly naming Beijing. "Those who cast an evil eye on Indian soil in Ladakh have got a befitting response. India honours the spirit of friendship. She is also capable of giving an appropriate response to any adversary, without shying away.'' On June 27, Vikram Mistry, India's Ambassador to Beijing said, "The resolution of this issue is quite straight forward from our perspective. The Chinese side needs to stop creating obstruction and hindrances in the normal patrolling patterns of the Indian troops.''

Clashes between Indian and Chinese soldiers in the region have not been uncommon but never with the brutality witnessed this year. In the past, Chinese and Indian soldiers would conduct a banner drill if they came across each other. This would involve raising banners staking their claim to the area before both sides would mutually disengage and move away. The Wuhan summit between India and China in April, 2018 was meant to reinforce a peaceful resolution to confrontations between the soldiers of both sides. This was meant to be based on ''the principle of mutual and equal security, and strengthen existing institutional arrangements and information sharing mechanisms to prevent incidents in border regions.''

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Two fast interceptor craft visible at a pier near 'Finger 5' and extensive construction activity at 'Finger 4'. Click here for a high resolution image
As India and China conduct a third round of military talks in Chushul in Ladakh today at the level of Lieutenant Generals, it appears clear that the spirit of Wuhan has been replaced with an altogether different reality in Ladakh where India has had to deal with multiple Chinese intrusions across the disputed Line of Actual Control in the region. The Generals will seek to work out the modalities of a mutual disengagement on the ground but progress will be contingent on China agreeing to move back to its positions before the tension in the area started building-up in April. Given the extent of the massive Chinese build-up in the region, the deployment of heavy weaponry and Chinese construction activity in disputed areas, New Delhi hasn't ruled out the possibility of a long summer ahead.

India's armed forces have actively countered the Chinese intrusions in Ladakh with a massive force deployment. NDTV is not reporting any details on the nature of the Indian build-up in the region.

 

danielboon

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Despite disengagement talks, India, China mobilise further in Ladakh, only winter holds hope
India Today has learnt that far from de-escalation, a greater mobilisation and concentration of troops have been seen on both sides of the Line of Actual Control in the last 72 hours.

Shiv Aroor New DelhiJune 30, 2020UPDATED: June 30, 2020 20:21 IST


The talks between India and China in Chushul today led with and focused in large measure on the situation at Pangong Tso's Finger 4. (Photo: India Today)

The precise opposite of disengagement between India and China is happening at the four friction points in eastern Ladakh. With the third round of Corp Commander level talks winding down in Chushul, India Today has learnt that far from de-escalation, a greater mobilisation and concentration of troops have been seen on both sides of the Line of Actual Control in the last 72 hours. And the mobilisation shows no signs of abating.
India Today can confirm that the Indian Army has scaled up its deployments, but will not report on the specifics of this mobilisation owing to the dynamic nature of the situation at all four friction points. The Chinese side has clearly scaled up deployments in depth areas of the Finger complex of Pangong Tso as well as Hot Springs area.
As reported by India Today yesterday, the talks in Chushul today led with and focused in large measure on the situation at Pangong Tso's Finger 4. India Today was the first to detail just how serious the situation is on the ridgeline at Finger 4, with permanent Chinese positions emerging for the first time in a swathe of disputed territory claimed and earlier patrolled by both sides. While the Chinese Army remains unmoved, both physically on the ground across friction points as well as in talks, it is clear that the PLA leadership has decided to focus its intransigence on Finger 4, showing every intention to move even further west into Indian territory, but held off by bigger Indian deployments in the area.

The three other friction points, Patrol Point 14 in the Galwan Valley (where the violent clash took place on June 15) and Patrol Points 15 & 17A near the Gogra Post in Hot Springs, also came up for discussion. As India Today has reported, the situation at the Galwan Valley and Hot Springs is less precarious currently compared to Pangong Tso, with the proximity and continuing mobilisation around Finger 4 being seen as a continued hostile action.
Three things have emerged quite clearly from today's talks. One, the process to define the crucial 'how' of disengagement has made no clear headway. Two, that while the two sides have defined their own details of disengagement, there are key disagreements that have stalled any clear progress in the talks. And three, the token reduction in troops seen at some sites, including Patrol Point 14, is precisely that -- token, in the present scheme of things.
In the absence of any clear take-aways to build on for the next round of talks, it is near certain that any disengagement may only happen by default when winter sets in, and manning positions at those frontiers become impossible to sustain for both sides. In the three months before winter takes over, the two sides will likely continue to talk, though no dramatic de-escalation is expected. For now, top sources say, the level of mobilisation by both sides, especially in the last four days, has emphasised trust deficit and also increased the 'point of no return' factor in deployments.
The Indian government's decision to ban 59 Chinese mobile apps just hours before Tuesday's military talks at Chushul added a new hard dimension to India's position, one that cannot be fully disentangled from the larger confrontation.
With boot heels, wheels and tank tracks dug in, it is likely that troops from both sides may only begin to disengage when the surface of the Pangong Tso is frozen over.
 

Melodi

Disaster Cat
Question for folks who know more than me:

Are Chinese Troops carving "China" on the territory they are holding in the same vein as soldiers putting the enemy's names on their bullets or calling a plane "Today's Enemy Killer" or is it more like an act likely to seal a war about to happen?

Or something else, in-between?

I mean my hunch is that it is a near act of war or the sort of thing people do when a war is almost certain to happen but I was not sure.
 

Housecarl

On TB every waking moment
Question for folks who know more than me:

Are Chinese Troops carving "China" on the territory they are holding in the same vein as soldiers putting the enemy's names on their bullets or calling a plane "Today's Enemy Killer" or is it more like an act likely to seal a war about to happen?

Or something else, in-between?

I mean my hunch is that it is a near act of war or the sort of thing people do when a war is almost certain to happen but I was not sure.
It's equivalent to putting up a flag that can be seen from orbit. It's a big middle finger to India and everyone else.
 

Oreally

Veteran Member
so this article is basically saying that war between them would happen, if it does, before the end of september.

2020 just keeps rolling along. and then there is november here. brrr
 

Jez

Senior Member
I'm curious. China has been very duplicitous of late, they seem to be saying to the public whatever will make the other side calm down and then go ok, and then they suddenly go "surprise". In all honesty how can anyone in their right mind negotiate with them when they know that China is going to do whatever it wants?
 

jed turtle

a brother in the Lord
By November, I expect the Martian-based Nazi saucers to lift off and launch their final conquest of Earth, joined by their seabed- And Antarctica- based saucers.

fortunately, some of us were only just passing through here, on our way to a far better country...
 

Jez

Senior Member
See what I mean. Draw out negotiations with India while aiding Pakistan. I can only imagine what strings came attached to that loan. I guess we'll find out soon. In a way you have to admire the Chinese with how they're playing everyone. I still can't decide if the World is just stupid or if the Chinese are such great Game Players.
 

Housecarl

On TB every waking moment
See what I mean. Draw out negotiations with India while aiding Pakistan. I can only imagine what strings came attached to that loan. I guess we'll find out soon. In a way you have to admire the Chinese with how they're playing everyone. I still can't decide if the World is just stupid or if the Chinese are such great Game Players.
Both.....
 

northern watch

Has No Life - Lives on TB
India Sends Tanks Along Border To Prevent China "Redefining" Line Of Actual Control

by Tyler Durden
Zero Hedge
Tuesday, 06/30/2020

Last week satellite imaging analysts based in the West observed a significant build-up of Chinese PLA forces along the India-Chinese border Line of Actual Control (LAC) in Galwan Valley. This included the expansion of what appeared permanent or semi-permanent bases, as well as tanks and artillery units, after the deadly June 15 Galwan Valley clash which left 20 Indian troops dead and an untold number of PLA casualties.

The Indian Army responded by sending its quick reaction surface-to-air missile systems known as Akash to the disputed border region, reported widely in Indian media Saturday. New Delhi is also now said to be seeking rapid S-400 acquirement from Russia.

India has further apparently answered China's tank build-up with its own in a continuing tit-for-tat deployment of additional forces. This despite ongoing deconfliction talks between the opposing military delegations. The Hindustan Times reports Tuesday the army has sent at least six T-90 Bhishma tanks to the LAC, along with additional defensive hardware such as shoulder fired anti-tank missiles for infantry troops.


Image via Defence.Capital

The Hundustan Times describes the extra force deployment as specifically in answer to the PLA's own tanks along the border:

The army’s decision to deploy the T-90 Bishma tanks was taken after the Chinese People’s Liberation Army (PLA) had beefed up its positions on the river bed with armoured personnel carriers and troop tents. The Indian Army is occupying the dominant heights in the sector within its side of the Line of Actual Control (LAC).

Infantry combat vehicles along with 155mm howitzers have been deployed all along 1597 km long LAC in East Ladakh with two tank regiments deployed in Chushul sector to repel any aggressive plans of the adversary through the Spanggur Gap. While Chinese PLA wants to make a deal on the LAC in this sector as part of withdrawal, the Indian Army is no mood to give an inch as the military aggression came from the Western Theatre Command of China with the intention of redefining the LAC.

The report adds further that Indian commanders are prepared for a "long haul" deployment of additional forces and tanks to the border.



This also as India's air force and navy are said to be in their "highest state of alertness" according to widely circulating Indian media reports.

India's military has been saying the "extraordinary circumstances" warrant both the build-up and altered rules of engagement giving local commanders "freedom of action" ability if provoked or attacked.

“There is no change in the rules as such. Our side will only react to provocations and in case of extraordinary circumstances,” former Indian director-general of military operations, Lt. Gen. Vinod Bhatia, previously said.

India Sends Tanks Along Border To Prevent China "Redefining" Line Of Actual Control
 

Zagdid

Veteran Member

India sending high-powered boats to match heavier Chinese vessels while patrolling Ladakh lake
Updated: Jul 01, 2020 14:38 IST Shishir Gupta Hindustan Times, New Delhi

Indian Navy is sending a dozen high-powered, bigger capacity and top-of-the-line surveillance equipped steel boats to Ladakh so that the Indian Army can patrol Pangong Tso and match the heavier Type 928 B vessels of the Chinese Army lake fleet. The Pangong Tso lake is at the centre of People’s Liberation Army (PLA) aggression in East Ladakh with the Chinese bullying India into ceding territory on both the banks and deliberately pushing the Modi government into retaliatory mode.

While the third senior military commander level talks stretched late into Tuesday night at Chushul, the word out is that they were held in cordial atmosphere with both the Leh Corps Commander and his Xinjiang Military district counterpart discussing the specifics of de-escalation and dis-engagement along the 3488 km Line of Actual Control (LAC).

The decision to send steel hulled boats to Pangong Tso was taken by the tri-services this week with the Navy asked to transport the vessels through C-17 heavy lift transporters to Leh on a priority basis. Apart from signalling Indian intent to stand up strong to any Chinese provocation, the heavier vessels will not be pushed around in the water by PLA boat fleet. Even though there are some logistical issues in transporting the huge boats by plane, solutions are being worked out by both Indian Navy and Army.

The Indian Navy is forwardly deployed on its eastern and western seaboards with its naval fleets monitoring the movement of ships from Andamans Sea to Persian Gulf to prevent any untoward activity.

While ostensibly China is talking peace and disengagement in the East Ladakh, it is quite evident to Indian national security planners that the PLA is actually consolidating on the four stand-off points along the 1597 KM LAC in the western sector. The amassing of troops in the Galwan sector, the building of road at Gogra point, the upgradations of communications at Hot Springs and the massive infra push at the Pangong Tso all shows that the PLA has no intentions to restore status quo ante. Instead, the PLA is hell-bent on provoking Indian Army by trying to nibble more territory and force an escalation on the border.

The Modi government has given Indian military a free hand to deal with the situation on the border as China has decided to turn the difference on the LAC into permanent dispute. The Indian troops and air force are all standing up to the PLA but will not initiate escalation on their own but only responds to the Chinese aggression. Just like 2001 Operation Parakram, Indian Forces are prepared to wait till such time status quo ante is restored in East Ladakh.

Even as the world, particularly the US and Russia, are waking up to new Chinese aggression, the Middle kingdom has always been a civilizational concept with Beijing rulers in the past two centuries. In this concept the only refined society is China with the rest of world being barbarians or tributary states. By contesting sovereignty of Senkaku islands with Japan, contesting Taiwan security with US, contesting South China Sea with ASEAN and forcing India into a military stand-off in Ladakh, China is cocking a snook at the globe.
 

1-12020

Contributing Member
Normally... I'm not to worried about much of the doom.
But!
This India China thing is the real deal.
I think something is going to go pop and perhaps on the 4th.
 

Jez

Senior Member
So the trillion dollar question is, will India fold like most other countries do or will they try to fight? The numbers of troops involved are kinda small so I'm not thinking anything massive is about to happen. I'm curious to see what India is going to do.

On the flip side of things if India and Pakistan burst into flames does that mean that most companies Tech Support lines suddenly go dead? What about all those scam calls I get at night? Maybe there is a bright side to this after all.
 

Housecarl

On TB every waking moment
So the trillion dollar question is, will India fold like most other countries do or will they try to fight? The numbers of troops involved are kinda small so I'm not thinking anything massive is about to happen. I'm curious to see what India is going to do.

On the flip side of things if India and Pakistan burst into flames does that mean that most companies Tech Support lines suddenly go dead? What about all those scam calls I get at night? Maybe there is a bright side to this after all.
If this truely goes hot, we are all going to understand what being a "down winder" is all about....and that's if we're lucky....
 
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