INTL India - China border crisis (Main Thread)

Oreally

Veteran Member
Moscow assures support to India amidst stand off with China

WION New Delhi, Delhi, India Jun 18, 2020, 03.02 PM(IST) Written By: Sidhant Sibal





File photo of Prime Minister Narendra Modi and Russian President Vladimir Putin. Photograph:( AFP )

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Earlier Russian foreign minister said, 'It has already been announced that the military representatives of India and China have made contact, they are discussing the situation, discussing measures to de-escalate it. We welcome this'

Moscow has assured that it stands by India in thick & thin. Top sources told WION while it supports India, it also backs New Delhi's efforts to resolve issues with China amidst the ongoing stand-off with China.

The development comes even has Moscow has publically reacted on the standoff at multiple levels with Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Igor Morgulov & India's Envoy to Russia Bala Venkatesh Varma discussing the matter.
On Wednesday, reactions came from Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov, the Russian ambassador to India Nikolay R. Kudashev & Russian Deputy Chief of Mission Roman Babushkin on the development hoping for de-escalation.
Watch |


Lavrov said, "It has already been announced that the military representatives of India and China have made contact, they are discussing the situation, discussing measures to de-escalate it. We welcome this".
Envoy Kudashev in a tweet said, "We welcome all steps aimed at de-escalation at the LAC, including the conversation between the two FMs, and remain optimistic."
While Russian DCM told WION, "We hope that the tensions will soon be de-escalated, and the sides would further maintain a constructive dialogue also keeping in mind the potential of cooperation. Russia believes it is vital for the region".
The Russian readout of deputy Russian foreign minister's talks with Indian envoy to Russia said, "the officials discussed regional security, including developments on the Line of Actual Control on the border between India and China in the Himalayas".

India and Russia have close ties and engage frequently including at the highest level. Both Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi and Russian President Vladimir Putin have spoken to each other many times this year including on COVID-19 crisis.
Later next week, the RIC Russia-India-China foreign minister meet via video conference will take place.
Russian foreign ministry spokesperson Zakharova announced that "On June 23, foreign ministers of Russia, India & China are scheduled to meet via videoconference as part of Russia’s RIC chairmanship. They will exchange views on trends in global politics, the economy, and other areas following the COVID19 pandemic."
Russian envoy called the "existence" of the grouping an "undisputable reality" which is "firmly fixed on the world map". Commenting on "current stage of of the trilateral cooperation" he said, "there are no indications that it might be frozen" over current India-China stand-off.

Later this year as the chair of SCO and BRICS, Russia will host the summits of both the groupings.
Meanwhile, Pakistan's Foreign Minister SM Qureshi also spoke to his Russian counterpart and the Russian foreign ministry readout of the talks showed that Russia did not support Pak priorities as Islamabad had been claiming during the telephone call.
India will send 75 members strong Tri-Service contingent to participate in the 75th Victory Day Parade of World War II in Moscow.
Victory Day Parade is scheduled to be held on June 24, 2020, in Moscow and the Russian Defence Minister Sergei Shoigu had invited Indian contingent to take part.
According to the official press-release of the Russian Ministry of Defense, the mechanized column participating in the parade will consist of more than 200 vehicles with more than 20 types of military hardware showcased at the parade for the first time.
Among the new armoured vehicles will be T-90M main battle tank, Armata infantry fighting vehicle with new combat module Kinzhal, Kurganets-25 infantry fighting vehicle with Epoha combat module.

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in the long run Putin must understand that the country that poses the most danger to them is China, not the US.

if it wasn't for the idiot Democrats ... bleh
 

Squid

Veteran Member
One thing to remember with India v China the issue is about one thing and one thing only, Water.

Tibet is a strategic necessity with China, the Himalayas account for the source of most of China’s fresh water.

China‘s diplomats have softened their tone but the Chinese have started using their recent incursions in the previous line of control to start trying to stop water flowing to India, and by default direct more to China. This is in all intents and purposes and act of war in and of itself. The India-Sino war that is being signaled is the first new century water source war.

I do not expect this to be the last.
 

jward

passin' thru
US warned India that MiG-29s and Su-30s wouldn’t help against China
By Boyko Nikolov On Jun 22, 2020


WASHINGTON, (BM) – The conflict between New Delhi and Beijing over the Himalayan stretch claimed by both countries is forcing India to acquire new fighters, as we reported yesterday.

Read more: India purchases 12 new Russian Sukhoi aircraft. Could it be the Su-57 fighter?

Read more: Dogfight! Russia’s Su-35 and Su-57 vs. F-35 Stealth Fighter Jet

The American columnist of Forbes, David Ax, recalls that recently it became known about the death of 20 Indian soldiers in a shootout along the disputed Indian-Chinese border, passing through a towering mountain range. He also notes that, according to media reports [Forbes – ed.], forty-three Chinese soldiers were injured in the clash.

“It is not surprising that India this week allegedly placed an order with Russia for $780 million for 33 fighters with Russia, which is enough to equip or re-equip two squadrons,” the publication says.

It is known that New Delhi plans to acquire 21 MiG-29 fighters and several Su-30.

The Indian Air Force has long planned to purchase additional aircraft to strengthen the existing arsenal of service, consisting of about 230 Su-30s and 60 MiG-29s. New Delhi also plans to acquire 83 local Tejas light fighters, as well as 144 foreign medium-sized fighters, in the coming years.

David Ax notes that all new fighters are part of the effort to increase the air force from 28 front-line squadrons to 40, the number of which New Delhi considers sufficient to fight simultaneously with Pakistan and China.

Read more: Top 5 best Russian fighter jets – 4++ and 5th generations

“These 28 squadrons fly on a stunning variety of fighters, including Indian and Russian types, the French Mirage 2000s and Rafales, and European Jaguars,” recalls an observer for the American publication.

Tom Cooper, an author and aviation expert, expressed his surprise that the Indian Air Force wants the Su-30 and MiG-29 to meet the extraordinary requirements for a pair of aircraft squadrons. Su-30, although it seems impressive on paper, in comparison with Western models does not have performance and combat efficiency.
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David Ax explains that Cooper’s point of view is this: for decades, the Mirage 2000 was a more effective fighter in the Indian service than the Su-30. Rafale, the successor to the French-made Mirage, is also one of India’s finest fighters. However, the Indians ordered a total of 36 Rafale.

“The Su-30 not only does not have the latest high-precision air-to-ground ammunition, but also does not work well with high-altitude air bases supporting Indian operations along the so-called border,” the Forbes publication says.

The lighter MiG-29 is better suited for the Indian Air Force than the Su-30. However, this does not mean that the old MiG is the right choice for New Delhi.

Read more: Top 5 best fifth generation fighter jets in the World

“So why, faced with the advancing Chinese army, the Indian Air Force wants to get Russian fighters?” – the observer of the American edition wonders.

The Indian company HAL is building a Su-30C under license in India, that is, New Delhi, buying “drying”, sends money to Indian companies.
 

Housecarl

On TB every waking moment
US warned India that MiG-29s and Su-30s wouldn’t help against China
By Boyko Nikolov On Jun 22, 2020


WASHINGTON, (BM) – The conflict between New Delhi and Beijing over the Himalayan stretch claimed by both countries is forcing India to acquire new fighters, as we reported yesterday.

Read more: India purchases 12 new Russian Sukhoi aircraft. Could it be the Su-57 fighter?

Read more: Dogfight! Russia’s Su-35 and Su-57 vs. F-35 Stealth Fighter Jet

The American columnist of Forbes, David Ax, recalls that recently it became known about the death of 20 Indian soldiers in a shootout along the disputed Indian-Chinese border, passing through a towering mountain range. He also notes that, according to media reports [Forbes – ed.], forty-three Chinese soldiers were injured in the clash.

“It is not surprising that India this week allegedly placed an order with Russia for $780 million for 33 fighters with Russia, which is enough to equip or re-equip two squadrons,” the publication says.

It is known that New Delhi plans to acquire 21 MiG-29 fighters and several Su-30.

The Indian Air Force has long planned to purchase additional aircraft to strengthen the existing arsenal of service, consisting of about 230 Su-30s and 60 MiG-29s. New Delhi also plans to acquire 83 local Tejas light fighters, as well as 144 foreign medium-sized fighters, in the coming years.

David Ax notes that all new fighters are part of the effort to increase the air force from 28 front-line squadrons to 40, the number of which New Delhi considers sufficient to fight simultaneously with Pakistan and China.

Read more: Top 5 best Russian fighter jets – 4++ and 5th generations

“These 28 squadrons fly on a stunning variety of fighters, including Indian and Russian types, the French Mirage 2000s and Rafales, and European Jaguars,” recalls an observer for the American publication.

Tom Cooper, an author and aviation expert, expressed his surprise that the Indian Air Force wants the Su-30 and MiG-29 to meet the extraordinary requirements for a pair of aircraft squadrons. Su-30, although it seems impressive on paper, in comparison with Western models does not have performance and combat efficiency.
BM In-Article Ad


David Ax explains that Cooper’s point of view is this: for decades, the Mirage 2000 was a more effective fighter in the Indian service than the Su-30. Rafale, the successor to the French-made Mirage, is also one of India’s finest fighters. However, the Indians ordered a total of 36 Rafale.

“The Su-30 not only does not have the latest high-precision air-to-ground ammunition, but also does not work well with high-altitude air bases supporting Indian operations along the so-called border,” the Forbes publication says.

The lighter MiG-29 is better suited for the Indian Air Force than the Su-30. However, this does not mean that the old MiG is the right choice for New Delhi.

Read more: Top 5 best fifth generation fighter jets in the World

“So why, faced with the advancing Chinese army, the Indian Air Force wants to get Russian fighters?” – the observer of the American edition wonders.

The Indian company HAL is building a Su-30C under license in India, that is, New Delhi, buying “drying”, sends money to Indian companies.
Prestige buy....about the only thing that would help India in the long run would be this mess to cool off to give them time to deliberately re-equip and train instead of these knee jerk purchases.
 

Squid

Veteran Member
The fighter buy is a bone to the Kremlin. India wants close ties to Russia for support and political cover should the border clash go hot. They have a long history with Russia and their military and don’t want the new coziness with US to cut the historic ties with the Kremlin especially against China.

Frequently military equipment purchases are more political than tactical.
 

Housecarl

On TB every waking moment
The fighter buy is a bone to the Kremlin. India wants close ties to Russia for support and political cover should the border clash go hot. They have a long history with Russia and their military and don’t want the new coziness with US to cut the historic ties with the Kremlin especially against China.

Frequently military equipment purchases are more political than tactical.
Very much so. The same can be said for domestic procurement programs. India only has to look at their domestic tank program and infantry rifle program for such examples.
 

Zagdid

Veteran Member
US warned India that MiG-29s and Su-30s wouldn’t help against China
By Boyko Nikolov On Jun 22, 2020


WASHINGTON, (BM) – The conflict between New Delhi and Beijing over the Himalayan stretch claimed by both countries is forcing India to acquire new fighters, as we reported yesterday.

Read more: India purchases 12 new Russian Sukhoi aircraft. Could it be the Su-57 fighter?

Read more: Dogfight! Russia’s Su-35 and Su-57 vs. F-35 Stealth Fighter Jet

The American columnist of Forbes, David Ax, recalls that recently it became known about the death of 20 Indian soldiers in a shootout along the disputed Indian-Chinese border, passing through a towering mountain range. He also notes that, according to media reports [Forbes – ed.], forty-three Chinese soldiers were injured in the clash.

“It is not surprising that India this week allegedly placed an order with Russia for $780 million for 33 fighters with Russia, which is enough to equip or re-equip two squadrons,” the publication says.

It is known that New Delhi plans to acquire 21 MiG-29 fighters and several Su-30.

The Indian Air Force has long planned to purchase additional aircraft to strengthen the existing arsenal of service, consisting of about 230 Su-30s and 60 MiG-29s. New Delhi also plans to acquire 83 local Tejas light fighters, as well as 144 foreign medium-sized fighters, in the coming years.

David Ax notes that all new fighters are part of the effort to increase the air force from 28 front-line squadrons to 40, the number of which New Delhi considers sufficient to fight simultaneously with Pakistan and China.

Read more: Top 5 best Russian fighter jets – 4++ and 5th generations

“These 28 squadrons fly on a stunning variety of fighters, including Indian and Russian types, the French Mirage 2000s and Rafales, and European Jaguars,” recalls an observer for the American publication.

Tom Cooper, an author and aviation expert, expressed his surprise that the Indian Air Force wants the Su-30 and MiG-29 to meet the extraordinary requirements for a pair of aircraft squadrons. Su-30, although it seems impressive on paper, in comparison with Western models does not have performance and combat efficiency.
BM In-Article Ad


David Ax explains that Cooper’s point of view is this: for decades, the Mirage 2000 was a more effective fighter in the Indian service than the Su-30. Rafale, the successor to the French-made Mirage, is also one of India’s finest fighters. However, the Indians ordered a total of 36 Rafale.

“The Su-30 not only does not have the latest high-precision air-to-ground ammunition, but also does not work well with high-altitude air bases supporting Indian operations along the so-called border,” the Forbes publication says.

The lighter MiG-29 is better suited for the Indian Air Force than the Su-30. However, this does not mean that the old MiG is the right choice for New Delhi.

Read more: Top 5 best fifth generation fighter jets in the World

“So why, faced with the advancing Chinese army, the Indian Air Force wants to get Russian fighters?” – the observer of the American edition wonders.

The Indian company HAL is building a Su-30C under license in India, that is, New Delhi, buying “drying”, sends money to Indian companies.
Think the lead time on the Rafales is too long and cost of ownership is high. The Chinese have basically 4 gen aircraft. Cold weather and high altitude is in Russia's wheelhouse. (Not sure they solved the deicer problem on the F-35 yet) India has experience with the MIG and Sukhoi platforms and they can draw from Russian deliveries and inventory.
With a good fuel envelope and flexible ROE, an experienced pilot with a decent aircraft and good stuff locked into the hard mounts will kick butt. China might be surprised.
 

mecoastie

Veteran Member
US Intel is stoking the fire here. Keep those 2 nations occupied with each other and have a good reason to move manufacturing.
 

Housecarl

On TB every waking moment
Think the lead time on the Rafales is too long and cost of ownership is high. The Chinese have basically 4 gen aircraft. Cold weather and high altitude is in Russia's wheelhouse. (Not sure they solved the deicer problem on the F-35 yet) India has experience with the MIG and Sukhoi platforms and they can draw from Russian deliveries and inventory.
With a good fuel envelope and flexible ROE, an experienced pilot with a decent aircraft and good stuff locked into the hard mounts will kick butt. China might be surprised.
The PLAAF operates Su-27 family aircraft as well, both purchased from Russia, built under license and without license.

The problems for the IAF includes delivery schedule, personnel training and building up of spares as well as just the number involved in the deal vs the actual operational need. The Indian government has left the combat aircraft situation fester for years. This is just another chapter, whether it will be the last chapter is anyone's guess.

My concern is how fast this could escalate....
 

Doc1

Veteran Member
Just my clueless ramblings here: I have long observed that - IMHO - large naval surface vessels have been obsolete since WWII. In a general war, when things get serious - and serious means nukes - even the largest and most capable warships are toast. What might survive are some submarines and small surface vessels not worthy of a warhead. There are any number of scenarios where small tactical nukes are employed without resorting to destroying the cities. It must be understood that modern warships no longer really engage each other gun-to-gun and mano y mano. Ships and submarines launch missiles. Aircraft carriers launch planes which then launch missiles. Some of these missiles are directed at land targets and others are directed towards aircraft. And this brings me to aircraft...

While the aircraft buffs love to discuss the capabilities and dogfighting ability of modern fighters, I have to wonder if it even matters. There have been air-to-air missiles for generations now. These have constantly been improved and have become increasingly capable and smart. With conventional kinetic missile weapons, the missile needs to explode on or very near the target to be effective. With even the smallest tactical nuclear weapons, we are into a "horseshoes and hand grenades" game where close is good enough.

Further, with the smart(er) "fire and forget" missiles, I don't think aircraft performance is very important. Any obsolete airplane that can get airborne and within range of a target should suffice. Loose off the missile and let it do the work.

The endless dithering over aircraft performance is only relevant because the various combatants are playing with one hand tied behind their back. The other - nuclear - hand has thus far been tied to the belt. Let that one loose and - with smart missiles - the worst aircraft can easily kill the best.

Best
Doc
 

jward

passin' thru
Indian and Chinese military agree to disengage on disputed Himalayan border https://in.reuters.com/article/india-

Top News
June 23, 2020 / 2:31 AM / Updated 8 hours ago
Indian and Chinese military agree to disengage on disputed Himalayan border

Devjyot Ghoshal, Huizhong Wu
2 Min Read

NEW DELHI/BEIJING (Reuters) - Indian and Chinese military commanders have agreed to disengage forces facing off over a disputed stretch of border where a clash last week left 20 Indian soldiers dead, an Indian government source in New Delhi said on Tuesday.

A satellite image taken over Galwan Valley in Ladakh, India, parts of which are contested with China, June 16, 2020, in this handout obtained from Planet Labs Inc. Picture taken June 16, 2020. Mandatory credit PLANET LABS INC/via REUTERS
Speaking in Beijing, Chinese foreign ministry spokesman Zhao Lijian said the two sides had agreed to take measures to ease tensions.

“There was a mutual consensus to disengage,” the Indian source said, commenting on the outcome of a meeting between commanders on border on Monday that lasted almost 11 hours.

China’s Zhao described recent media reports of 40 Chinese casualties in the clash as “fake news”.


China has not disclosed how many casualties its side suffered in the brutal fighting on June 15, when soldiers beat each other with rocks and wooden sticks embedded with nails, while observing a long-held protocol to avoid using firearms.

Troops from the nuclear-armed neighbours have been facing-off in several areas in the Ladakh region in the western Himalayas since last month, and the clash in the Galwan valley last week was the deadliest in more than five decades.

Yet, the Indian source said Monday’s parley on the Chinese side of the Line of Actual Control (LAC), the de facto border, was conducted in a “cordial, positive and constructive atmosphere.”

“Modalities for disengagement from all friction areas in Eastern Ladakh were discussed and will be taken forward by both the sides,” the Indian source said.


In previous rounds of talks, China had asked India to stop all construction work in what it says is Chinese territory.

For its part, India has been pushing China to withdraw its troops back to where they were in April.

Reporting by Devjyot Ghoshal; Editing by Sanjeev Miglani & Simon Cameron-Moore
Our Standards:The Thomson Reuters Trust Principles.
 
Indian and Chinese military agree to disengage on disputed Himalayan border https://in.reuters.com/article/india-

Top News
June 23, 2020 / 2:31 AM / Updated 8 hours ago
Indian and Chinese military agree to disengage on disputed Himalayan border
Missing URL for above article:



intothegoodnight
 

Squid

Veteran Member
Just my clueless ramblings here: I have long observed that - IMHO - large naval surface vessels have been obsolete since WWII. In a general war, when things get serious - and serious means nukes - even the largest and most capable warships are toast. What might survive are some submarines and small surface vessels not worthy of a warhead. There are any number of scenarios where small tactical nukes are employed without resorting to destroying the cities. It must be understood that modern warships no longer really engage each other gun-to-gun and mano y mano. Ships and submarines launch missiles. Aircraft carriers launch planes which then launch missiles. Some of these missiles are directed at land targets and others are directed towards aircraft. And this brings me to aircraft...

While the aircraft buffs love to discuss the capabilities and dogfighting ability of modern fighters, I have to wonder if it even matters. There have been air-to-air missiles for generations now. These have constantly been improved and have become increasingly capable and smart. With conventional kinetic missile weapons, the missile needs to explode on or very near the target to be effective. With even the smallest tactical nuclear weapons, we are into a "horseshoes and hand grenades" game where close is good enough.

Further, with the smart(er) "fire and forget" missiles, I don't think aircraft performance is very important. Any obsolete airplane that can get airborne and within range of a target should suffice. Loose off the missile and let it do the work.

The endless dithering over aircraft performance is only relevant because the various combatants are playing with one hand tied behind their back. The other - nuclear - hand has thus far been tied to the belt. Let that one loose and - with smart missiles - the worst aircraft can easily kill the best.

Best
Doc
Doc.

Not to quibble but.....

There is a world of difference and use equation between ICBM what I will call MIRV super nukes (think 1950 hiding under desk) and the tactical theater nukes. The tactical theater nukes are designed for large ground area war, would possibly be in the scenario planning to blunt or stop a large Russian mechanized attack across Germany.

ICBM’s are more we have them so we don’t need to use them because a large ICBM toss between US vs USSR or US vs China or Chiba vs USSR would simply be incredibly destructive for both sides and create global food supply for everyone left. But the carry vehicle is the big rocket.

Tactical weapons require transportation to the target and yes missiles could be used but there is something to be said for air cover and support by combat jet.

Truth be told the next war will really highlight the debate between bigger and best versus just more. With the capabilities vastly increasing with the potential limitless use of drones and missiles that can be massed produced cheaply and in virtually unlimited numbers what number would it take to swamp a particle beam fixed placement laser weapon.

So I kind of agree on fighters for India, fighters are more and more like super carrier. Great show of force, but in todays environment the capabilities and the destructive power of the missile is as or more important than the mach whatever of the aircraft even for conventional munitions.

It’s almost better if they slug it out as a stalemate because any side losing large chunks of ground will seriously consider tactical nukes, and then the dominoes could really start falling. Although I have no idea what the risk would be for China if they basically contaminated the Only real source for most of their fresh drinking water. I would think around Tibet they would really not to want to have either side use nukes.
 

jward

passin' thru
National
Ladakh face-off | India, China to ‘cool down’ LAC tension
Ananth Krishnan
Dinakar Peri
New Delhi , June 23, 2020 10:10 IST
Updated: June 23, 2020 23:09 IST


Indian soldiers patrol the mountainous terrain in Leh on June 23, 2020.

Indian soldiers patrol the mountainous terrain in Leh on June 23, 2020. | Photo Credit: AFP


Both countries agree to disengage after detailed talks were held between Corps Commanders.
India and China have arrived at a “mutual consensus” to disengage on their disputed eastern Ladakh boundary, an Army official said on Tuesday after detailed talks between Corps Commanders on Monday.
Also read | ‘China’s PLA meticulously planned attack in Galwan’
The disengagement, eight days after 20 Indian soldiers were killed by Chinese troops in the Galwan Valley of Ladakh, came on a day Army chief M.M. Naravane visited his injured colleagues in a Leh hospital.
Beijing, too, echoed the sentiments expressed in New Delhi, with the Foreign Ministry spokesman welcoming the Corps Commander-level talks “to take necessary measures to cool down the situation”. He said arrangements towards de-escalation were being coordinated by the two militaries on the ground.

Phased disengagement
An Indian Army official, who wished not to be named, said, “The Corps Commander-level talks between India and China on June 22 were held at Moldo in a cordial, positive and constructive atmosphere. There was a mutual consensus to disengage. Modalities for disengagement from all friction areas in eastern Ladakh were discussed and will be taken forward by both the sides.”
Another Army official said the disengagement would be done from different places in a phased manner without giving a specific time frame or sequence. There would be more ground-level talks to take forward the disengagement.
In the first Corps Commander talks on June 6, both sides identified five locations of conflict — Patrolling Point (PP) 14, 15, 17A, North bank of Pangong Tso and Chushul — and agreed on limited “disengagement” in some of the places. But that consensus ended with the Galwan clash.
Interestingly, both rounds of talks between the Corps Commanders took place in Moldo, the designated meeting point on the Chinese side. They were reportedly sought by the Chinese side and hosted by the People’s Liberation Army (PLA).
Also read | Amid military talks, reports of Chinese build-up at Pangong

‘False information’
The Chinese Foreign Ministry rejected a statement made by Gen. V.K. Singh (retd.) that China lost more than 40 soldiers in the June 15 clash, terming it “false information”. Beijing has not revealed the number of casualties from the Galwan clash.
The Ministry said the holding of Monday’s Corps Commanders meeting, the first since the clash, “showed that the two sides hope to resolve differences, and control and ease the situation through dialogue and consultation”.
When asked about Monday’s agreement to disengage, Foreign Ministry spokesperson Zhao Lijian said, “The relevant measures are being coordinated and arranged by the border forces of the two countries on the ground.”
The Ministry said both sides agreed to take forward the consensus reached on June 6.
Also read | There has been no firing on the border since 1975
“During the meeting, based on the consensus reached at the first Commander-level meeting, the two sides have had candid and in-depth exchange of views on outstanding issues related to border control, and agreed to take necessary measures to cool down the situation,” said Mr. Zhao. “The two sides agreed to maintain dialogue and work together for peace and tranquillity in border areas.”
To a query about Chinese casualties, Mr. Zhao said, “China and India are in dialogue and talks with each other to resolve this issue through diplomatic and military channels. As for what you saw in the media, for example some people alleged that casualties on the Chinese amounted to 40, I can tell you for sure this is false information.”

Naravane in Ladakh
Indian Army chief General Naravane, meanwhile, is on a two-day visit to review operational preparedness on the ground in Ladakh. “The Army chief will be visiting Ladakh for reviewing the ground situation, discuss the ongoing stand-off with ground commanders, visit forward locations and interact with troops on the ground,” a source said.
Upon reaching Leh, Gen. Naravane interacted with soldiers at the military hospital. This is his second visit to Ladakh since the stand-off with the Chinese troops that began in early May. He visited the Leh-based 14 Corps Headquarters on May 22.
Watch | India-China stand-off on the LAC: A Timeline



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jward

passin' thru
China demands India’s withdrawal from Galwan Valley
Ananth Krishnan
June 24, 2020 14:28 IST
Updated: June 24, 2020 20:11 IST

Maxar WorldView-3 satellite image shows close up view patrol point 14 in eastern Ladakh sector of Galwan Valley on June 22, 2020.

Maxar WorldView-3 satellite image shows close up view patrol point 14 in eastern Ladakh sector of Galwan Valley on June 22, 2020. | Photo Credit: Reuters


Both India and China “agreed to resolve the existing situation peacefully” after talks through videoconference

China has demanded a withdrawal of Indian personnel and facilities from Galwan Valley. This was conveyed at the Corps Commander talks on June 6 and June 22, officials from China’s People’s Liberation Army (PLA) and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs (MFA)said on Wednesday.

The statements from Beijing came as both sides “agreed to resolve the existing situation peacefully,” following talks held through videoconference on Wednesday under the Working Mechanism for Consultation and Coordination on border affairs.
The Ministry of External Affairs (MEA) said both sides “discussed in detail the developments in the India-China border areas in particular the situation in Eastern Ladakh.” India “conveyed its concerns” on the June 20 face-off that claimed the lives of 20 Indian soldiers and “emphasised that both sides should strictly respect and observe the Line of Actual Control (LAC)”, it stated.

China’s statements, however, pointed to sharp differences on where the LAC lies in Galwan Valley. The valley begins from the confluence of the Galwan and Shyok rivers, and the LAC that both sides had been observing runs east of the confluence, in the valley. China, however, is demanding an Indian withdrawal from the entire valley and limiting India’s presence to the “Galwan estuary”, where it meets the Shyok. Wednesday’s statements from Beijing appeared to describe the LAC at the “estuary” of the river.

China demands India’s withdrawal from Galwan Valley

Claims untenable: MEA
The MEA said last week China’s claims over the entire valley were “exaggerated” and “untenable”.
At Wednesday’s talks, the MEA said both sides agreed to “sincerely implement the understanding on disengagement and de-escalation that was reached by the Senior Commanders” and that doing so “expeditiously” would “help ensure peace and tranquillity in border areas and the development of broader relationship between the two countries.”

The MFA, in a statement, said both sides would “actively cooperate with the armed forces of the two countries to implement the consensus from the two rounds of military leaders’ talks on June 6 and 22 , strengthen communication and coordination between military and diplomatic channels, and peacefully resolve relevant issues in border areas through bilateral dialogue and consultation.”
China demands India’s withdrawal from Galwan Valley

The talks were led by Naveen Srivastava. Joint Secretary (East Asia) in the MEA, and Hong Liang, Director General of the Department of Boundary and Oceanic Affairs of the MFA.
At the same time, the MFA and the Defence Ministry, in separate statements, accused India of breaking the agreement of June 6, and claimed India had committed to not patrolling in the valley or building facilities there. The Defence Ministry said India “should bear full responsibility for the incident that was solely and completely triggered by its breach of consensus and unilateral provocations” and “demanded the Indian side severely punish those who should be held accountable, strictly discipline its front line troops so as to ensure that such incidents do not happen again.”

MFA spokesperson Zhao Lijian said, “It is the Indian side that went against the bilateral agreement. The Indian side at first agreed to withdraw personnel from Galwan Valley which it did, and it dismantled its facilities as requested by the Chinese side. During the first Commander meeting on June 6, the Indian side committed to no trespassing of the Galwan Valley for patrolling and for building. The two sides agreed to set up observatory posts at the two sides of the Galwan river estuary, but the Indian side went against this agreement and asked China to dismantle China’s posts, and also crossed the LAC,” which, he said, led to the clash.

India, however, said the clash was triggered by China violating the June 6 agreement, and setting up a post on its side of the LAC. Indian officials said the LAC that both sides had been observing has been east of the confluence near Patrolling Point 14, where the clash occurred.
China’s Defence Ministry spokesperson, PLA Senior Colonel Wu Qian, repeated China’s claim that “it has sovereignty over the Galwan Valley region.” “Over the years, the Chinese border troops have been patrolling and guarding this region,” he said. “Since April this year, the Indian border troops have unilaterally built facilities along the LAC in the Galwan Valley. The Chinese side has lodged representations and oppositions to the Indian side many times. In the early morning of May 6, the Indian border troops trespassed into China’s territory, built fortifications and barricades, and impeded the patrol of Chinese border troops, in an attempt to unilaterally change the status quo of border control and management. The Chinese border troops have been forced to take necessary measures to respond to the situation on the ground and strengthen management and control in the border areas”.

At the Corps Commander level meet on June 6, he said, both sides “reached consensus on easing the situation through concrete measures”. “The Indian side promised that they would not cross the estuary of the Galwan river to patrol or build facilities, and the two sides would discuss and decide phased withdrawal of troops through the meetings between commanders on the ground. Shockingly, on the evening of June 15, India's front-line troops, in violation of the agreement reached at the commander-level meeting, once again crossed the LAC for deliberate provocation, and even violently attacked the Chinese officers and soldiers who went there for negotiation, thus triggering fierce physical conflicts and causing casualties”.

India, however, has stressed that it its troops did not cross the LAC and that the clash was triggered by China breaking the June 6 consensus and erecting structures on India’s side of the line. India has said that it was the Chinese side that attacked Indian troops in a “premeditated” manner, following a dispute over a tent set up by China on India’s side of the LAC.
Senior Colonel Wu also claimed that the Defence Ministers of the two countries had been in communication over phone following the incident, but a Ministry of Defence spokesperson in New Delhi said “no such conversation took place.”
(With inputs from Dinakar Peri)

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jward

passin' thru
Satellite images show new Chinese structures near site of border clash with India

The pictures by Maxar Technologies show what appear to be extensive Chinese structures overlooking the Galwan River.
The pictures by Maxar Technologies show what appear to be extensive Chinese structures overlooking the Galwan River.PHOTO: AFP
Published
3 hours ago

SINGAPORE/NEW DELHI (REUTERS) - China appears to have added new structures near the site of a deadly border clash with India in the western Himalayas, fresh satellite pictures show, heightening concerns about further flare-ups between the nuclear-armed neighbours.

Indian and Chinese military commanders agreed on Monday (June 22) to step back from a weeks-old standoff at several locations along their disputed border following the June 15 clash in the Galwan Valley in which 20 Indian soldiers were killed.
The satellite images showing new construction activity in the week following the brutal hand-to-hand combat underline the challenge of disengagement and the risk the accord could still fall apart because of overlapping claims in the arid territory.
The pictures shot on Monday by US-based space technology firm Maxar Technologies show what appear to be extensive Chinese structures on a raised river terrace overlooking the Galwan River.

India says the area where the structures have sprung up are on its side of the poorly defined, undemarcated Line of Actual Control or the de facto border between the two Asian giants.
China says the whole of Galwan Valley, located at about 4,300m, is its territory and blames Indian troops for triggering the clashes.


The new activity includes camouflaged tents or covered structures against the base of cliff, and a short distance away, a potential new camp under construction with walls or barricades. The camp was not seen in pictures made available to Reuters the previous week.

Nathan Ruser, a satellite data expert at the Australian Strategic Policy Institute, said the build-up suggested there was little sign of de-escalation.
"Satellite imagery from the Galwan Valley on June 22nd shows that 'disengagement' really isn't the word that the (Indian) government should be using," he said in a post on Twitter.

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On the Indian side, defensive barriers can be seen in the latest images which were not visible in pictures taken in May.
An Indian forward post appears to be scaled back compared with images a month ago.
China's foreign ministry did not immediately respond to requests for comment on the apparent activity.
India's defence ministry also did not respond to a request for a comment.
Indian military officials have previously said they will be closely monitoring the planned disengagement process and verify it on the ground.
"There is a trust deficit so far as the Chinese are concerned," said former Indian army chief Deepak Kapoor.
"So if they are telling us verbally they are ready to pull back, we will wait to see it on the ground. Until then the armed forces will be on alert."


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Plain Jane

Veteran Member

Satellite Images Show Huge 'Permanent' Chinese Troop Expansion At Site Of India Border Clash
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by Tyler Durden
Fri, 06/26/2020 - 18:45
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Even though by the start of this week India and China announced a cooling of tensions along the disputed Galwan Valley Line of Actual Control (LAC) border area, new satellite images have revealed a major military build-up especially by the Chinese side.
What was previously but a small, remote Chinese People's Liberation Army (PLA) outpost has grown huge in size after the June 15 nighttime clash which left 20 Indian soldiers said, many of them having fallen to their deaths during hand-to-hand combat from a precarious ridge line.
Maxar Technologies/CNN
The satellite images produced by Maxar Technologies were taken Monday, reports CNN, and show that a week after the deadliest India-China border clash in half a century PLA forces had significantly expanded their encampment.

The PLA has reportedly stationed tank and artillery units in the contested border region.
It was a day later on Tuesday that Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesman Zhao Lijian announced that talks between the two sides' top regional commanders resulted in a positive breakthrough. They "agreed to take necessary measures to promote a cooling of the situation," Zhao said.
Maxar Technologies/CNN
Below: Before image showing the relatively empty area of what's dubbed Patrol Point 14 in the Galwan Valley between May 22 and June 22 (compared to apparent build-up in same area shown above).
Maxar Technologies/CNN
"The small outpost ... has grown hugely in size," the analyst at the Australian Strategic Policy Institute who first revealed the images, Nathan Ruser tweeted on Thursday.


Indian troops aren't dismantling this one," he added, emphasizing that the new PLA expanded camp appears permanent.


Though analysts say it's clearly a PLA encampment, Indian media reports claimed that the Indian Army was in full control of the disputed Galwan Valley area in question.

However, analysts say the new images refute those claims, as CNN reports:

The Maxar satellite photos released this week appear to show China has put a tank company and artillery units at a camp north of Gogra. Another significant base was shown in the Kongka Pass.
Ruser, in an analysis released before the latest satellite photos came out, said previous such photos showed Chinese troops have been regularly crossing the LAC on patrols into Indian territory -- although not at the point of the June 15 clash -- but that reports of thousands of Chinese troops encamped in Indian territory were unproven.
Analysts examining the new satellite photos further say that while the PLA presence has increased, the Indian Army appears to have drawn down from the immediate area of dispute.

China has reportedly moved about a thousand additional troops into the area after recent hostilities and spiking tensions.
 

The Mountain

Here since the beginning
_______________
Kalika saw a news report on Youtube from a local station in Ladakh which reported that there are already US forces there; they had video of them, and they were very adamant about not showing their faces. I will look for the report in the morning and post it here.
 
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