Barry Natchitoches
Has No Life - Lives on TB
Your last statement -- concerning .gov controlled shelters vs. other shelters -- captures the story in and of itself.
I worked in a .gov controlled shelter during Gustav, and although it was't bad enough to require decontamination, it was a poorly run shelter, which increased the problems with anger and frustration in both the residents AND the volunteers.
Barry Natchitoches
Has No Life - Lives on TB
OK, NOW this starts to make sense.
Evacuees with serious medical problems and other elderly and disabled were SUPPOSED TO have been sent to only a select number of special shelters where medical personnel were to be on hand 24/7 to meet their specialized needs.
One of the primary shelters established for this purpose was the Ed Rice Special Needs Shelter here in Memphis. The first train load of people out of New Orleans were mostly elderly and disabled, and that was part of the FEMA PLAN. When they arrived in Memphis, there was one medical triage team waiting at the train station (along with six ambulances) to wisk away any that had to go to the hospital IMMEDIATELY.
The rest were routed on buses to a National Guard hangar in South Memphis where a medical team from Methodist Hospital evaluated all the special medical needs cases and then assigned them to either: hospital stay, the Ed Rice Special Medical Needs Center, or on to a regular shelter, depending on the nature and severity of their medical condition.
There was supposed to be a deliberate attempt down in New Orleans to get these folks on train transport to Memphis rather than bus transport elsewhere, in part because it is easier to transport critically ill and elderly by train, and in part because Memphis has the biggest medical center in this part of the United States, and the theory was that all the big hospitals in Memphis would share the burden of treating the worst of the medical refugees. (After the fact, it is being argued that Methodist forwarded on only the well insured medical refugees to their faciliities and sent the charity cases to the other hospitals, but that is beside the point.)
Anyway, if that shelter in Alabama had some medical cases that should not have been routed there, then maybe there could be some kind of haz mat situation. If so, that was a failure of the FEMA logistical people, who should have boarded that person or persons onto one of the trains headed to Memphis. WE were the ones supposed to handle these special medical cases.
I don't know that is the case, but the bolded information in your report sure does suggest that. It sounds like one or a few of the Alabama shelter people should have been routed onto the train headed to Memphis instead.
First the stories were unbelievable, then they were substantiated and now they are grand-standing. You don't believe any confirmations from our own members (first hand reports), nor any media reports (local even), you obviously didn't read the related postings from locals (or else you disbelieve them too) if there were pictures they'd be photo-shopped.
Ridiculous.
I asked before and you still haven't answered, what else do you clean up human waste and blood and with?
Did you read Fire's confirmations and Night Drivers?
Why is Tennessee not accepting Ike evacuees? That's grand-standing as well?
You challenged me to find your recent posts showing opposite of what you've posted here. There's 3 threads and you know exactly which they are. I started to do that but I'm not going to do that to you, but then then you dare post this after you ripped me a new asshole in one of same threads and said with all kinds of tone and sarcasm that it must not be true since it wasn't in the msm (referencing YOUR posts about the violence) and YOU posted a news article confirming the arrest.
Ironically, I was the one saying that YOU were exaggerating the conditions as you encouraged people to NEVER go to a shelter and one poster said if the shelters are so unsafe that you'll get beat up over a board game (which you stated) then she'd take her chances with a hurricane.
This isn't rocket science, you agree with the Houston 25% murder increase, you agree with the SuperTomb stories, you deny this and it is MILD compared to what has been confirmed.
Make up your mind, you're being hypocritical.
This isn't about the decent people in New Orleans, didn't you read this thread, even those here that are good people in NOLA know that they have a concentrated population within that are freaks.
Don't you realize that by defending the undefendable and inhumane in NOLA, you are hurting the very ones that I know you truly speak for.
It's stupid, freaks (no color, size or gender attached) acting like beasts, they should and have to be dealt with otherwise none of the good people of NOLA are going to have a place to evacuate to and then there will again be the mess that was Katrina and all we'll see are bodies floating by.
That's not right and it isn't fair to any other evacuees, including those from other states (like Texas for Ike, that don't have as many sheltering options now because of the NOLA freaks).
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Barry Natchitoches
Has No Life - Lives on TB
Perhaps you have not yet read down far enough yet, because I have addressed most or all of these issues already, but in posts that I think are falling after the post that I believe you wrote this in response to.
I said the shelters were BAD -- bad enough that I would never let my family go into one, if I can help it. But I never claimed they were so bad that they required haz-mat response.
But then somebody posted more information about the Alabama situation, and it seems that the problem was caused by a few serious medical cases that should not have been in the shelter in the first place.
As I have alredy said, THAT really CAN cause haz-mat type situations, and that would explain a legitimate need for haz-mat cleanup. But the original post back on page 1 that I responded to originally did not include that information. That original post sounded to me like just a couple of "too clean" college administrators who wanted 15 minutes of fame and $25 extra thousand bux from FEMA.
Continue reading the posts in this thread, and you will note I have already addressed the Tennessee EMA/Ike situation as well.
I am not surprised by any of the destruction of some of the shelters.
We have free Shelters for homeless in this town, but we have a few decency rules.
Many occupants have been released from jail,or marriage, or are new arrivals to town.
They have to be in the building by 10pm, they have to shower and shave every night and they have to sleep in the assigned bed. Alone. and be quiet. and drug and alcohol free.
when those simple rules for a free nights sleep are not met, then the person is met by 'the police' and escorted off the territory. If they have nowhere else to go, they can go to jail. as vagrants.
Too many homeless who cant afford a real 'home', transition into the workforce at ODarkThirty to construction sites, and are very happy to follow the rules, live a structured life style, and get a re-start into life.
Some of our 'other' homeless actually live in hobo camps on the river banks. Their source of income seems to be panhandling in parking lots or intersections. They wont qualify for shelters, cuz they refuse to follow the basic higene laws. If these hobos were offered clean sheets, toilets and hot running shower water, I doubt they would be grateful. or considerate.
Lots of folks on this planet.
and Barry.
If you want to read a really good book,
Find Deborah Tannen, the Argument Culture. PHD from Georgetown......
S&P Book Awards:
O
She explains that chicken pecking you mentioned.
But tho you are in the right idea of crowd mentality, you are in the wrong ball park of acountability.
Some folks will never be gracious or thoughtful or motivated.
They will always feel entitled to TAKE what isnt their's to take.
We have free Shelters for homeless in this town, but we have a few decency rules.
Many occupants have been released from jail,or marriage, or are new arrivals to town.
They have to be in the building by 10pm, they have to shower and shave every night and they have to sleep in the assigned bed. Alone. and be quiet. and drug and alcohol free.
when those simple rules for a free nights sleep are not met, then the person is met by 'the police' and escorted off the territory. If they have nowhere else to go, they can go to jail. as vagrants.
Too many homeless who cant afford a real 'home', transition into the workforce at ODarkThirty to construction sites, and are very happy to follow the rules, live a structured life style, and get a re-start into life.
Some of our 'other' homeless actually live in hobo camps on the river banks. Their source of income seems to be panhandling in parking lots or intersections. They wont qualify for shelters, cuz they refuse to follow the basic higene laws. If these hobos were offered clean sheets, toilets and hot running shower water, I doubt they would be grateful. or considerate.
Lots of folks on this planet.
and Barry.
If you want to read a really good book,
Find Deborah Tannen, the Argument Culture. PHD from Georgetown......
O
She explains that chicken pecking you mentioned.
But tho you are in the right idea of crowd mentality, you are in the wrong ball park of acountability.
Some folks will never be gracious or thoughtful or motivated.
They will always feel entitled to TAKE what isnt their's to take.
Barry,
I read the whole thread befdore responding.
You made some leaps with that information to fit what you want to believe is true, the OP says 90% of the cots were soiled, the clarifying information said "several."
Here's from the OP:
90% of 350 people with incontinenace?
ND said:
Fire said:
And, there's endless first hand reports in this very thread confirming the same kind of behavior that leads to that type of clean up, but you don't want to believe them.
I don't know what the answer is Barry, but there has to be a way to address the behavior so good people that need to use shelters won't be afraid to use them.
I read the whole thread befdore responding.
You made some leaps with that information to fit what you want to believe is true, the OP says 90% of the cots were soiled, the clarifying information said "several."
Here's from the OP:
90% of 350 people with incontinenace?
ND said:
Fire said:
And, there's endless first hand reports in this very thread confirming the same kind of behavior that leads to that type of clean up, but you don't want to believe them.
I don't know what the answer is Barry, but there has to be a way to address the behavior so good people that need to use shelters won't be afraid to use them.
Jumpy Frog
Browncoat sympathizer
Almost verbatum what I would have suggested. In Search and Rescue if we go out for a citizen from another county or state, that governing agency covers the costs of the efforts. Why not apply that very same principle to these pig stys these dirtbag low-lifes like to leave behind.
"What makes people act that way? Is it the welfare state? A sence of entitlement? Or is it just that they weren't raised right? I really don't understand the thought process, the mentality behind that kind of behavior."
__________________
There is a simple answer, but it is something our American culture won't admit; some people ae demon possessed; this seemingly inexplicable behavior is demonic in nature and origin. And demonic possession spans the spectrum of cultures and people groups, btw.
__________________
There is a simple answer, but it is something our American culture won't admit; some people ae demon possessed; this seemingly inexplicable behavior is demonic in nature and origin. And demonic possession spans the spectrum of cultures and people groups, btw.
Intergator
SWM
Barry - I don't believe in kicking people when they're down, but I think you maybe have lost touch with New Orleans. You have been gone awhile, yes?
I've lived there all my life, and I see the way things are in good times. Not much different than bad times.
There's a HUGE drug and crime problem - and it becomes a way of life for many. They don't necessarily go on their best behavior when they have to evacuate.
There is a HUGE entitlement attitude there as well.
Go back and spend a year or so in the midst of it and then defend their bad behavior.
I'll say this, New Orleans used to be a wonderful place to live. Now, I'm happy I moved.
I've lived there all my life, and I see the way things are in good times. Not much different than bad times.
There's a HUGE drug and crime problem - and it becomes a way of life for many. They don't necessarily go on their best behavior when they have to evacuate.
There is a HUGE entitlement attitude there as well.
Go back and spend a year or so in the midst of it and then defend their bad behavior.
I'll say this, New Orleans used to be a wonderful place to live. Now, I'm happy I moved.
Deduct it from their welfare checks until it's all repaid.
It's time to quit handling them with kid gloves and start demanding something back from them. If they break it, it comes out of the next check first thing. If they make a mess and pros have to be called in to clean it, make 'em pay it. If they lose the entire welfare check for the next 6 months, too bad.
Barry Natchitoches
Has No Life - Lives on TB
Actually, I was hoping this thread would die a natural death since it begain with a colorful but less than accurate opening piece, and then just spiraled into a million slightly different directions and, for the most part, a final conclusion that explained the opening piece but also left unanswered some questions that are not easily answered but certainly need serious consideration.
But with you resurecting this thread, I figure there is nothing lost by answering your post.
The fact of the matter is that most of the crap in the original post is over exaggeration that has its basis in a solid reality, the best I can tell. When you have alot of people living in very cramped places for long periods of time, the INEVITABLE RESULT is going to be some pretty dirty living quarters when they leave.
Shoot, Sassy, I was saying this back when you were blasting me in the other thread -- back when you accused me of, oh, what ever it was...
I believe (but am not sure, without looking it up) that you were one of the ones who jumped on me when I said that I would do anything and everything within my power to take care of my family OUTSIDE of the public shelter system, because I did not consider the public shelters a place suitable for my own family.
What do you think I was refering to, if it were not the INEVITABLE dinginess, dirt and general nastyness that you have a few days after cramming lots of people in such small quarters?
I HAVE WORKED SHELTERS IN MANY CITIES AND STATES OVER THE 19 YEARS I HAVE WORKED WITH RED CROSS DISASTER SERVICES, AND THE DEGREE OF DIRTINESS AND/OR APPALLING, NASTY CONDITIONS LEFT AFTER THE SHELTER SHUTS DOWN IS ALMOST COMPLETELY DETERMINED BY:
1. The Number of Square Feet Per Full Time Resident (in other words, the more people and cots you cram into the shelter, the dirtier it will end up being)
2. The Percentage of Children Under Age 5 and/or Extremely Elderly People Over Age 80 or 85 (shelters loaded with alot of very young children or extremely elderly adults will tend to be dirtier than one with the same number of people, but most who are working age adults)
3. The Percentage of People Who Enter the Shelter With Communicable Diseases (like colds, flu, or diarrhea)
4. The ratio of the number of toilets available to the number of residents in the shelter
and
5. The ratio of the number of showers available to the number of residents in the shelter
This actually may be one reason why .gov run shelters tend to be dirtier at closing time than the private church shelters. The government shelters tend to cram people into the shelters like they were sardines, and they tend to provide far too few toilets and showers for the number of people in the shelter. Of course, not all government shelters are cram packed every time, but they are more often then they are not.
Now Sassy, all of this is both true AND consistant with what I have posted previously, for one very good reason: it is the truth.
HOWEVER, this claim by the Alabama college officials that conditions are so dirty that they require professional HAZ-MAT services to the tune of $25K? (Not to mention the undertone of the original article, that suggests but does not come right out and say it) that the place they are from (New Orleans) is the reason that the facilities are so dirty?
THAT is why I chimed into this thread!
First of all, notice that when more objective information became available concerning the Alabama situation, it is revealed that they had MEDICAL ISSUES in that shelter.
Not NEW ORLEANS issues, Sassy, MEDICAL ISSUES!
Anytime you have either a few residents whose medical issues should have warranted special placement, OR you have lots of people who end up with diarrhea or other communicable diseases because of being crammed in cramped quarters, then you will have some pretty messy places. In the extreme, possibly even a Haz-Mat situation.
But that has NOTHING AT ALL TO DO WITH WHERE THE FOLKS CAME FROM!
I worked a gawd-awful shelter in St. Louis, MISSOURI (as opposed to the shelter I was later transfered to in St. Louis, ILLINOIS) that almost made me quit working for Red Cross, it was that bad. The problem was that they had diarrhea running rampent in the place a few days after opening, and the large proportion of pre-school age children living there did not help.
Fortunately, the folks hosting the shelter were not so crude as to call a press conference and complain about the dirtiness of the residents and the fact that they wanted to stick FEMA for Haz-Mat cleaning services. They had more respect for the residents, and more respect for themselves too, IMHO.
In the later article on the Alabama situation, however, it does not suggest that there was some epidemic of dysentery or whatever in the shelter -- it suggests that it was just one or a few people with extreme medical issues. Least that's what I read out of it.
Well, that can do the same thing, depending on what the medical issues are.
At any rate, the insinuation that the "haz-mat" level condition of the shelter is the result of WHO the evacuees are (Gustav follks, as opposed to "Good People") is both cruel and -- as the later report turns out to reveal -- completely inaccurate.
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Barry Natchitoches
Has No Life - Lives on TB
One other thing:
I am NOT being Politically Correct when I omit racial characteristics (percentage of blacks, hispanics, or whatever) as being a determinant of how clean or dirty a shelter ends up by closing time.
And let me tell you why.
One of the CLEANEST and SAFEST shelters I ever worked was in -- of all places -- EAST ST. LOUIS, ILLINOIS!
Now, any of you who know East St. Louis, Illinois (right across the river from St. Louis, Missouri) know that it is heavily poor, black, and is known for having more murders, rapes, and other brutal crime than any other community in the nation -- at least in 1993, when I worked the shelter there.
And the first couple of days after Red Cross opened up the shelter in East St. Louis, it was really, really, really BAD... they brought the worst of the street crime right into the shelter, and I was sent over their to work that shelter because I am a rather big, strong man. That is what they needed those first few days.
But then, in a move we just did not expect, the leaders of the two main gangs -- leaders who normally fight each other with switchblades and semi-automatic pistols -- came to us TOGETHER with a proposal of their own.
They noted that the uniformed cops in the shelter obviously couldn't keep control of the situation, and neither could we.
But they said that THEY COULD. Because the opposing gangs and their families were going to be forced to live in such close proximity for so long (this shelter would stay open for over a month before it was all over), the gangs were willing to call a temporary Cease Fire and declare the shelter neutral territory.
And they proprosed one of the most unorthodox (and highly risky) solutions to the problem I have ever encountered:
They suggested that the uniformed cops leave and let their own gang members take over the security of the shelter!
Needless to say, the idea was extremely frowned upon by the cops, Red Cross officials, and everybody else from the mainstream, middle class side of the river. But we couldn't help but notice that where the shelter people would not listen to us or to the uniformed cops, they really did seem to listen to their own home boys.
So, a plan was devised to -- temporarily, at first, and made permanent only when the plan was proven to work -- let all of the uniformed officers go (but keep one unarmed officer with a radio). That just left the Red Cross folks and the shelter residents.
The gang security guards were allowed to wear their colors, but they had to agree that they would NOT bring any of their normal fighting into the shelter. The gang security guards would control their own people and their families, but would not make any attempt to control the people who belonged to the other gang, or their families.
It was a scary situation at first, but it didn't take any time whatsoever for the gangs to gain control of the shelter. I was sent over their because Red Cross expected trouble, but instead, it turned out to be one of the most pleasant, safest and most secure shelter assignments I have ever had. It turned out that, as violent as those guys could be on the open streets, when their mothers and their little sisters had to live in such close proximity to their enemies mothers and little sisters, then it had come time to call a Cease Fire. For the sake of their mothers and their grandmothers, one of the young gang members told me.
I have never quite looked at organized gangs in the same way, since that experience in East St. Louis.
The bad thing is, after the shelter closed down, they went back to shooting and stabbing each other in the streets.
But during the five or six weeks that shelter was open, it was one of the safest and CLEANEST shelters I have ever worked.
And believe me, there wasn't a white face in that crowd, other than a few Red Cross volunteers...
I am NOT being Politically Correct when I omit racial characteristics (percentage of blacks, hispanics, or whatever) as being a determinant of how clean or dirty a shelter ends up by closing time.
And let me tell you why.
One of the CLEANEST and SAFEST shelters I ever worked was in -- of all places -- EAST ST. LOUIS, ILLINOIS!
Now, any of you who know East St. Louis, Illinois (right across the river from St. Louis, Missouri) know that it is heavily poor, black, and is known for having more murders, rapes, and other brutal crime than any other community in the nation -- at least in 1993, when I worked the shelter there.
And the first couple of days after Red Cross opened up the shelter in East St. Louis, it was really, really, really BAD... they brought the worst of the street crime right into the shelter, and I was sent over their to work that shelter because I am a rather big, strong man. That is what they needed those first few days.
But then, in a move we just did not expect, the leaders of the two main gangs -- leaders who normally fight each other with switchblades and semi-automatic pistols -- came to us TOGETHER with a proposal of their own.
They noted that the uniformed cops in the shelter obviously couldn't keep control of the situation, and neither could we.
But they said that THEY COULD. Because the opposing gangs and their families were going to be forced to live in such close proximity for so long (this shelter would stay open for over a month before it was all over), the gangs were willing to call a temporary Cease Fire and declare the shelter neutral territory.
And they proprosed one of the most unorthodox (and highly risky) solutions to the problem I have ever encountered:
They suggested that the uniformed cops leave and let their own gang members take over the security of the shelter!
Needless to say, the idea was extremely frowned upon by the cops, Red Cross officials, and everybody else from the mainstream, middle class side of the river. But we couldn't help but notice that where the shelter people would not listen to us or to the uniformed cops, they really did seem to listen to their own home boys.
So, a plan was devised to -- temporarily, at first, and made permanent only when the plan was proven to work -- let all of the uniformed officers go (but keep one unarmed officer with a radio). That just left the Red Cross folks and the shelter residents.
The gang security guards were allowed to wear their colors, but they had to agree that they would NOT bring any of their normal fighting into the shelter. The gang security guards would control their own people and their families, but would not make any attempt to control the people who belonged to the other gang, or their families.
It was a scary situation at first, but it didn't take any time whatsoever for the gangs to gain control of the shelter. I was sent over their because Red Cross expected trouble, but instead, it turned out to be one of the most pleasant, safest and most secure shelter assignments I have ever had. It turned out that, as violent as those guys could be on the open streets, when their mothers and their little sisters had to live in such close proximity to their enemies mothers and little sisters, then it had come time to call a Cease Fire. For the sake of their mothers and their grandmothers, one of the young gang members told me.
I have never quite looked at organized gangs in the same way, since that experience in East St. Louis.
The bad thing is, after the shelter closed down, they went back to shooting and stabbing each other in the streets.
But during the five or six weeks that shelter was open, it was one of the safest and CLEANEST shelters I have ever worked.
And believe me, there wasn't a white face in that crowd, other than a few Red Cross volunteers...
Barry,
I really have to wonder if you have read this entire thread
It started with one article about one shelter and those same conditions have been confirmed in various shelters across many states -- media reports, videos, first hand reports of OTHERS that work in shelters and do clean-up, first responders, NOLA citizens themselves.
You just don't want to hear.
I was upset with you in the Ike thread because instead of offering up ways based on your knowledge to mitigate the problems in the shelters you had members stating that it would be better to take your chances with a hurricane.
So I will say again, the freaks of NOLA have to be dealt with so that the decent and hard working people of NOLA won't be afraid to go to shelters if that is their only option.
It is wrong that you keep making excuses for this behavior instead of coming up ways to resolve it, the blowback will be that no evacuees of NOLA will be welcome, and even those self-evacuating to hotel rooms will find them hard to come by without big deposits up front.
Then we will be back to watching floaters and rooftop clingers on tv and whoever is the next President you can continue to blame, because the rest of America plain won't give a flying one anymore.
I really have to wonder if you have read this entire thread
It started with one article about one shelter and those same conditions have been confirmed in various shelters across many states -- media reports, videos, first hand reports of OTHERS that work in shelters and do clean-up, first responders, NOLA citizens themselves.
You just don't want to hear.
I was upset with you in the Ike thread because instead of offering up ways based on your knowledge to mitigate the problems in the shelters you had members stating that it would be better to take your chances with a hurricane.
So I will say again, the freaks of NOLA have to be dealt with so that the decent and hard working people of NOLA won't be afraid to go to shelters if that is their only option.
It is wrong that you keep making excuses for this behavior instead of coming up ways to resolve it, the blowback will be that no evacuees of NOLA will be welcome, and even those self-evacuating to hotel rooms will find them hard to come by without big deposits up front.
Then we will be back to watching floaters and rooftop clingers on tv and whoever is the next President you can continue to blame, because the rest of America plain won't give a flying one anymore.
kytom
escapee from reality
dogs are great we are talking about humans!! they would screw up a junk yard!!
kytom
escapee from reality
tannen is excellent!! ive read most of her books. learned alot from them. thanks for showing me this one..If you want to read a really good book,
Find Deborah Tannen, the Argument Culture. PHD from Georgetown......S&P Book Awards:
O
She explains that chicken pecking you mentioned.
But tho you are in the right idea of crowd mentality, you are in the wrong ball park of acountability.
Some folks will never be gracious or thoughtful or motivated.
They will always feel entitled to TAKE what isnt their's to take.
Barry Natchitoches
Has No Life - Lives on TB
Barry,
I really have to wonder if you have read this entire thread
It started with one article about one shelter and those same conditions have been confirmed in various shelters across many states -- media reports, videos, first hand reports of OTHERS that work in shelters and do clean-up, first responders, NOLA citizens themselves.
You just don't want to hear.
Interesting. I have thought the very same thing about you.
There is nothing here -- other than the haz-mat and decontamination claims -- that is new. The claims, that is. Actually, there are other cases where MEDICAL ISSUES in other states during other disasters that have caused Red Cross to engage specialized cleaning services. Not often, but it has happened from time to time. Shelters can be places where disease runs rampent, though they usually are not THAT terribly bad -- not bad enough to cause haz-mat situations, anyway.
The rest is actually old hash, for those of us who work disaster shelters on a regular basis. Nothing we have not SEEN FIRST HAND in other places and at other times.
The only thing that might be unique is tying in the condition of the shelters specific to the folks who were in the shelters in such a public and degretory way.
Folks who are inexperienced with shelters might make that mistake, especially with an evacuation as massive as Gustav, and involving a group of people as popular as the Welfare Queens made all New Orleanians after Katrina.
But those of us who have worked alot of shelters in alot of different places and times have seen first hand the sort of stuff that has been reported ad nauseum in the first two pages of this thread. Hell, what do you think the two threads you and I were engaged in this past weekend were all about????????????
And believe me, we've seen these conditions at many different times, in many different places, with many different groups of people.
It is you, Sassy, who are either so naive as to think this has never happened before, or too prejudiced to consider the possibility that these unsanitary conditions might be due to one or more of the five factors that the SHELTER EXPERTS have identified as being the factors that influence this most, rather than conveniently "buying into" the very negative and personalized characterization that folks who just can't pass up the chance to take "one more peck" at New Orleanians are squawking about in front of the TV cameras?.
Yes, Ms. Sassy, and what is YOUR suggestion for improving the situation????
Actually, if you read the material bolded in post # above, there are suggestions for improvement that are implicit; just a matter of reading between the lines.
But since you seem to need everything drawn out plainly and clearly for you, here are five suggestions for improving the situations in the shelters:
1, First and formost: significantly reduce the number of people you cram into an individual shelter. I have worked shelters where I couldn't walk between the cots they were so close together (of course, I'm built like a football player so I am a bit larger than most). In some shelters I have worked at, people had to stow what few belongings they had with them UNDERNEATH the cot, because there was no place else for the stuff to go.
2, Restrict the number of small children and really old elderly people that you will allow in a shelter. I guess we can store the excess small children with the pets, wherever they are warehoused. I guess another alternative would be to ducktape all small children to their cots -- no, come to think of it, that would leave tape residue on the cots and then prissy college administrators would have to call a press conference and complain about that....
OK, this one I throw in sarcastically, because there is nothing we can do about it if it turns out that the population we are asked to serve is one that has huge numbers of small children. I understand they have the same problem in shelters over in Utah, with all those MORMONs over there popping so many kids out of the oven....
(Please don't flame me on that one, I'm LDS myself...)
3, Limit the number of people coming into the shelters with contagious diseases. Red Cross always has a nurse in every shelter, and she does the best she can do to contain diseases, but again, we cannot refuse services to a person who has a cold or the flu or diarrhea. Sometimes conditions allow the nurse to move the sick person to another room or something, and if there is room to do it, they will.
One thing that definitely would help is for them to screen shelter victims for lesser common but more serious medical issues. And in fact, they do make every attempt to do this. As mentioned before, there was a deliberate attempt by FEMA to route medical evacuees to just a few target areas specially designated to take them. Memphis was one of those places. We took in large numbers of elderly, diseased, injured and disabled folks and placed them in our hospital system or in the Ed Rice Special Medical Needs Shelter, which had plenty of 24/7 medical staff on duty.
4, Make sure that there are at least 1 toilet for every 8 males and 1 toilet for every 5 females. More would be better. And make sure that there is plenty of seat covers (especially for the ladies), plenty of anti-bacterial soap, and plenty of feminine protection items available for those who need them. A baby changing area would make things much better as well. I have never worked a shelter that had plenty of toilets or porta potties available that also had really bad cleanliness problems too -- with the one exception of a shelter I once worked where there were a bunch of juveniles that got together and decided that overflowing the toilets was good sport. I don't remember where that was for sure. I think it might have been during the flood I worked in West Virginia back in 1996, but I'm not sure about that. It could have been Johnson City, Tennessee in 1997 (or 1998). Geez, I've worked so many of these shelters by this time that I don't remember details about every one of them.
5, Same thing with showers. If they had one shower for every -- oh, maybe 8 people or so -- I don't think cleanliness of the shelter itself would be a problem.
By the way, on the number of toilets and showers that would be optimal, I don't know of any scientific studies that would help identify the numbers. That's Barry's opinion of how many toilets and showers per resident would eliminate problems, and if you think that number is too low or too high, that's OK. The point is that if you have enough toilets, showers, anti-bacterial soap, washcloths and towels, it helps ALOT.
The problem is that most government and/or Red Cross official shelters cram way too many people into too small of an area, and that is a Big Time invitation to problems of All Kinds Imaginable -- from cleanliness problems to health and safety issues to problems with theft to who knows what.
So my suggestion for improving the sheltering system would be to reduce the number of people you cram into a given shelter at least to the point where people have a little bit of "private room" around their cots. At least to a level where disease and foul smells will not run rampant, noise levels will not be deafening, children will not be climbing all over those who do not want to be around children, etc. Reduce the number down to a manageable number not only for the floor space available, but for the toilet facilities and shower facilities available. Make sure that shelter residents who have communicable diseases can be segregated from the rest.
And treat evacuees with respect, even if you don't think they deserve it.
Those are MY suggestions, Sassy.
I'm waiting to hear yours.
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homepark
Resist
Well, the conduct of these evacuee's has little to do with NOLA or race, but a lot to do with an entitlement mentality too present in our sub-cultures. It is truly a sad day when communities turn to the Bloods & Crips, or the Black Muslims to provide security. I am well aware that the KKK did the same in many areas at one time.
Having said that, it is clear that minority communities in our large cities have a terrible problem with crime, violence, drugs, lawlessness and an entitlement mentality. This was correctly predicted by D. Patrick Moynihan some 45 years ago as a result of the breakdown of the family by welfare programs.
Having said that, it is clear that minority communities in our large cities have a terrible problem with crime, violence, drugs, lawlessness and an entitlement mentality. This was correctly predicted by D. Patrick Moynihan some 45 years ago as a result of the breakdown of the family by welfare programs.
Barry... you claim to have read the entire thread, and I do NOT mean to "pile on" here.
But... you keep harping on "HazMat" being unnecessary and like it's some sort of an insult to insist that it's necessary. And if you read Night Driver's post, among others, you'd maybe have learned something:
ANY TIME human body wastes (feces, urine, blood, etc) are involved, HazMaT is required these days. NO EXCEPTIONS (except, of course, in your own home, your own family). It may be overkill, but in this age of HIV and Hepatitis and other interesting diseases... it's the LAW.
I suspect that smaller school districts don't comply with the absolute letter of the law under normal conditions- they know the kids, and they know that the little boy who just crapped all over the bathroom because he didn't get there in time and he's got a stomach bug does NOT have HIV, etc. So, the custodians put on gloves and grab long handled mops and clean the mess up.
When you're talking evacuees, and I don't care if they're from New Orleans, Memphis, or BumF**k, Timbuctu... people with totally unknown - and unknowable- medical histories... they ARE going to have to get in there in full HazMat gear and essentially sterilize the place to the best of their abilities.
That's NOT MEANT as an "insult" to the people involved.
My gut feeling is that you felt almost violated by the stories that came out from Katrina. I'm not sure why (did Intergator say you used to live in NO?)... but it's the same almost knee-jerk reaction I get when people start claiming all milk has "pus" in it, and other idiotic assertions. I've needed to realize that some of the ignorance can't be cured, but I've also had to learn that as long as they don't claim that "ALL" milk is horrid (and some certainly do try to claim that... those are the ones I'll set straight in a heartbeat)... they aren't talking about ME!
We AREN'T TALKING ABOUT ALL NEW ORLEANS residents! The original story didn't insinuate that anyone except the people IN THAT SHELTER were pigs of the lowest order.
And $25k is probably a lowball estimate, if there's more than one large room and a couple of bathrooms involved. Heck, just the toxic waste disposal fees can run into five figures. It can cost you $3k to get someone in to "decontaminate" your home if you break a stupid compact florescent lightbulb and are dumb enough to report it!
I think you miss the point, also, that many who post on these threads are worried. They're concerned that these "refugees" and "evacuees" are poisoning the well, to the extent that if THEY- or YOU- need to shelter someplace, sometime... there won't be any place to go.
Summerthyme
But... you keep harping on "HazMat" being unnecessary and like it's some sort of an insult to insist that it's necessary. And if you read Night Driver's post, among others, you'd maybe have learned something:
ANY TIME human body wastes (feces, urine, blood, etc) are involved, HazMaT is required these days. NO EXCEPTIONS (except, of course, in your own home, your own family). It may be overkill, but in this age of HIV and Hepatitis and other interesting diseases... it's the LAW.
I suspect that smaller school districts don't comply with the absolute letter of the law under normal conditions- they know the kids, and they know that the little boy who just crapped all over the bathroom because he didn't get there in time and he's got a stomach bug does NOT have HIV, etc. So, the custodians put on gloves and grab long handled mops and clean the mess up.
When you're talking evacuees, and I don't care if they're from New Orleans, Memphis, or BumF**k, Timbuctu... people with totally unknown - and unknowable- medical histories... they ARE going to have to get in there in full HazMat gear and essentially sterilize the place to the best of their abilities.
That's NOT MEANT as an "insult" to the people involved.
My gut feeling is that you felt almost violated by the stories that came out from Katrina. I'm not sure why (did Intergator say you used to live in NO?)... but it's the same almost knee-jerk reaction I get when people start claiming all milk has "pus" in it, and other idiotic assertions. I've needed to realize that some of the ignorance can't be cured, but I've also had to learn that as long as they don't claim that "ALL" milk is horrid (and some certainly do try to claim that... those are the ones I'll set straight in a heartbeat)... they aren't talking about ME!
We AREN'T TALKING ABOUT ALL NEW ORLEANS residents! The original story didn't insinuate that anyone except the people IN THAT SHELTER were pigs of the lowest order.
And $25k is probably a lowball estimate, if there's more than one large room and a couple of bathrooms involved. Heck, just the toxic waste disposal fees can run into five figures. It can cost you $3k to get someone in to "decontaminate" your home if you break a stupid compact florescent lightbulb and are dumb enough to report it!
I think you miss the point, also, that many who post on these threads are worried. They're concerned that these "refugees" and "evacuees" are poisoning the well, to the extent that if THEY- or YOU- need to shelter someplace, sometime... there won't be any place to go.
Summerthyme
Binkerthebear
Veteran Member
... and I'm talking literally.
nicholascovey
Contributing Member
Some people are pigs. I know I've been married to one. My ex-wife (there's a lot of reasons why "ex" is in front of wife, but this is a really good one) was one of those people who lacked the ability to clean up after herself. I worked 12-14 hour days trying to keep an aging computer network to hold together while she stayed home with the kids.
I would step over dirty diapers on the way in the door, wash a dish so I could find something to heat up a microwave burrito on, dig through the mountains of dirty laundry to find enough for myself and the kids to wear the next day and run it through the wash. And then while I was eating the microwaved burrito at a table covered in finger-paint and play-doh, she would call me on the home phone on from her cell phone and ask me to bring her a glass of water (she was lying in bed watching TV, where she had been since 7PM and it was 10)
Now her parents said I was the problem, but no matter how much I cleaned, she would unclean it the next day. When I cleaned out the house after we separated we found crazy things, like dirty dishes in her underwear drawer, and cups of applesauce behind the sofa that had spilled and dried to the carpet.
She came from (I thought) a good family. They weren't trashy (and for the record, she couldn't have been whiter without being albino) but she somehow was. She wasn't raised that way. And yet she seemed unable to cope with a simple mess. I cleaned until midnight a lot of nights and got up at 6 to leave for work, and yet somehow I was the one not supporting her. After hearing that a while any affection that may have existed just disappears.
She was a spoiled rotten brat who at 30 never learned to be an adult. She leaves a slimy trail anywhere she goes.
So it's not a condition of race. Its not even really a condition of culture. Its really a case of whether the people involved get away with it and are allowed to continue to get away with it.
My divorce was long and brutal. I was absent from the boards for almost a year because of it. And she managed to get the kids because shes staying with her parents. But when she steps out on her own again (or marrys some poor bastard) and has her own house to keep, its only a matter of time before DFS takes the kids out of the house when she keeps it like that. And I'm the watchdog thats not going to let her get away with it.
This has been a bit off topic but this speaks strongly to me. Make these people pay, and this crap will stop happening. End of story.
I would step over dirty diapers on the way in the door, wash a dish so I could find something to heat up a microwave burrito on, dig through the mountains of dirty laundry to find enough for myself and the kids to wear the next day and run it through the wash. And then while I was eating the microwaved burrito at a table covered in finger-paint and play-doh, she would call me on the home phone on from her cell phone and ask me to bring her a glass of water (she was lying in bed watching TV, where she had been since 7PM and it was 10)
Now her parents said I was the problem, but no matter how much I cleaned, she would unclean it the next day. When I cleaned out the house after we separated we found crazy things, like dirty dishes in her underwear drawer, and cups of applesauce behind the sofa that had spilled and dried to the carpet.
She came from (I thought) a good family. They weren't trashy (and for the record, she couldn't have been whiter without being albino) but she somehow was. She wasn't raised that way. And yet she seemed unable to cope with a simple mess. I cleaned until midnight a lot of nights and got up at 6 to leave for work, and yet somehow I was the one not supporting her. After hearing that a while any affection that may have existed just disappears.
She was a spoiled rotten brat who at 30 never learned to be an adult. She leaves a slimy trail anywhere she goes.
So it's not a condition of race. Its not even really a condition of culture. Its really a case of whether the people involved get away with it and are allowed to continue to get away with it.
My divorce was long and brutal. I was absent from the boards for almost a year because of it. And she managed to get the kids because shes staying with her parents. But when she steps out on her own again (or marrys some poor bastard) and has her own house to keep, its only a matter of time before DFS takes the kids out of the house when she keeps it like that. And I'm the watchdog thats not going to let her get away with it.
This has been a bit off topic but this speaks strongly to me. Make these people pay, and this crap will stop happening. End of story.
dimensiondancer
Inactive
nc - that sounds horrible. I cannot even think of having to live like that, so you have my sympathy. It's all in how you are raised, either that or there is something that overides the human element in the brain and the animal side evolves back into the forefront.
There can be people like that in any race, but some specific races are raised not to know any better, especially if they have someone to care for them, aka Uncle Sam. For the most part, the welfare class (of any race) just does not care about being tidy. Nothing in it for them.
There can be people like that in any race, but some specific races are raised not to know any better, especially if they have someone to care for them, aka Uncle Sam. For the most part, the welfare class (of any race) just does not care about being tidy. Nothing in it for them.
Barry,
FIRST, this thread is 3 pages long, kindly read it again and skip my posts, please notice all the others that have posted.
There ARE others with first hand knowledge, experience, and expertise that HAVE posted.
There ARE others that presently and that have recently lived in New Orleans, they HAVE posted.
YOU ignore them all.
You even ignore that YOUR home state of Tennessee won't be accepting Ike evacuees because of the amount of clean-up involved.
If stating that something needs to be done about the freaks from NOLA that destroy public shelters makes me "pecking" then I'll be happy to be a pecker.
THOSE freaks are going to and have caused blowback for not only the decent people of NOLA but every other person in this country that may need to use a public shelter.
I think every decent citizen of NOLA firstly, then everyone in this country, should flood Mayor Choco and Governor Jindal with letters of disgust and demand those responsible be held accountable for their actions.
I think the emergency plan needs to be updated to provide for tracking of every individual; that those individuals once they arrive at their destination should be given a cot, sleeping bag, and pillow.
I think the bathing areas and toilets should be secured and individuals should have to check-in/out with a staff check in-between; further, I think whoever is using those facilities should clean it before the next person is allowed in.
I think those items that are assigned and given to each individual when they check-in should be returned by the individual cleaned and in the same condition it was given on the way out or citations should be issued.
I think they should bring their own food/water/toilietries and whatever else they need for at least 3 days, as requested. I think those that don't should be charged for whatever is provided.
I think there should be ZERO tolerance in public shelters and suggestions such as yours of gang-bangers in charge of their own is utter bullshit. I think any infraction should result in immediate sheltering in jail, once they are returned home they should face local charges and never be allowed in a public shelter again.
I absolutely think NOLA should build and be responsible for its own residents.
More than that, outside of the elderly and medical evacuees, require people to be responsible for themselves.
Shelters are shelters -- they are not hotels, doctor's offices, pharmacies, baby suppliers, walmarts, bars or whore houses.
NOTHING you listed as suggestions addresses resolving the problem of people behaving badly, nothing, unless you are saying that because there weren't enough toilets to use the freaks were justified in destroying the ones they had available and pissing in their beds instead.
Either the freaks have to be addressed OR the decent people needing to also use shelters won't have any to go to -- the other states don't want them any more, in fact, look up what is coming out of Shreveport, even LA doesn't want NOLA evacuees to come back.
And, I'm telling ya right now, while there are evacuations underway for Ike, there largely won't be the same overwhelmingly negative reports about them.
FIRST, this thread is 3 pages long, kindly read it again and skip my posts, please notice all the others that have posted.
There ARE others with first hand knowledge, experience, and expertise that HAVE posted.
There ARE others that presently and that have recently lived in New Orleans, they HAVE posted.
YOU ignore them all.
You even ignore that YOUR home state of Tennessee won't be accepting Ike evacuees because of the amount of clean-up involved.
If stating that something needs to be done about the freaks from NOLA that destroy public shelters makes me "pecking" then I'll be happy to be a pecker.
THOSE freaks are going to and have caused blowback for not only the decent people of NOLA but every other person in this country that may need to use a public shelter.
I think every decent citizen of NOLA firstly, then everyone in this country, should flood Mayor Choco and Governor Jindal with letters of disgust and demand those responsible be held accountable for their actions.
I think the emergency plan needs to be updated to provide for tracking of every individual; that those individuals once they arrive at their destination should be given a cot, sleeping bag, and pillow.
I think the bathing areas and toilets should be secured and individuals should have to check-in/out with a staff check in-between; further, I think whoever is using those facilities should clean it before the next person is allowed in.
I think those items that are assigned and given to each individual when they check-in should be returned by the individual cleaned and in the same condition it was given on the way out or citations should be issued.
I think they should bring their own food/water/toilietries and whatever else they need for at least 3 days, as requested. I think those that don't should be charged for whatever is provided.
I think there should be ZERO tolerance in public shelters and suggestions such as yours of gang-bangers in charge of their own is utter bullshit. I think any infraction should result in immediate sheltering in jail, once they are returned home they should face local charges and never be allowed in a public shelter again.
I absolutely think NOLA should build and be responsible for its own residents.
More than that, outside of the elderly and medical evacuees, require people to be responsible for themselves.
Shelters are shelters -- they are not hotels, doctor's offices, pharmacies, baby suppliers, walmarts, bars or whore houses.
NOTHING you listed as suggestions addresses resolving the problem of people behaving badly, nothing, unless you are saying that because there weren't enough toilets to use the freaks were justified in destroying the ones they had available and pissing in their beds instead.
Either the freaks have to be addressed OR the decent people needing to also use shelters won't have any to go to -- the other states don't want them any more, in fact, look up what is coming out of Shreveport, even LA doesn't want NOLA evacuees to come back.
And, I'm telling ya right now, while there are evacuations underway for Ike, there largely won't be the same overwhelmingly negative reports about them.
Barry Natchitoches
Has No Life - Lives on TB
Yeah, yeah, Sassy... I know. New Orleans folks are pigs, every body else are angels....
There are so many things in your post above that are slanted or false, but frankly I'm tired of dealing with you.
You are not worth the time I have already put into addressing your concerns, and I am certainly not going to repeat myself to you multiple times.
Learn to read, to listen to others, and then maybe we can have a constructive TWO-WAY conversation.
In the meantime, I'm out of here and on to other topics...
There are so many things in your post above that are slanted or false, but frankly I'm tired of dealing with you.
You are not worth the time I have already put into addressing your concerns, and I am certainly not going to repeat myself to you multiple times.
Learn to read, to listen to others, and then maybe we can have a constructive TWO-WAY conversation.
In the meantime, I'm out of here and on to other topics...
Bolded and in red is a straight up lie, you find one post anywhere where I ever said New Orleans folks are pigs, EVER!
There is nothing in my post that is slanted or a lie, I think it is apparent you didn't even read it, you asked for suggestions to solve the problem, even said you looked forward to them, I gave them, so an opinion cannot be slanted or a lie. You just don't like them because they make people responsible for their behavior.
As for the rest Barry, I'm sorry you've chosen to ignore every post in this thread but mine, take you own advice please -- YOU are standing alone with your opinion in this thread.
Surprise
Inactive
As I read through the conversation in this thread, a memory from long ago comes to mind.
A male neighbor was joking about if he was ever caught , and I mean walked right in on, dead to rights caught red handed by his wife cheating..... he would say to the wife:
"Come on now....who are you going to believe?...ME or your lying eyes?"
(You either get it or you don't , I am not wading in any further here)
A male neighbor was joking about if he was ever caught , and I mean walked right in on, dead to rights caught red handed by his wife cheating..... he would say to the wife:
"Come on now....who are you going to believe?...ME or your lying eyes?"
(You either get it or you don't , I am not wading in any further here)
Firestopr... while we're sort of beating a dead horse here, I think it would be... instructive to see some of them. If you wouldn't mind, if you could refresh our memories with a brief description of the demographics involved (ages, sexes, ?families? or a bunch of young hoodlums, and whether or not you saw people who appeared to be ill enough that it might have affected their ability to handle normal body functions)...maybe we could keep it on the right track, rather than having it veer of into the typical "excuses or blame" garbage.
And, if I didn't already say it, thanks for your service to those in a time of need. I think that's what worries me the most about these stories, and people who cause them... many of us may need help at some point, and there is going to be fewer and fewer areas, people, churches or anything else willing to help if this issue can't be gotten under control.
Summerthyme
And, if I didn't already say it, thanks for your service to those in a time of need. I think that's what worries me the most about these stories, and people who cause them... many of us may need help at some point, and there is going to be fewer and fewer areas, people, churches or anything else willing to help if this issue can't be gotten under control.
Summerthyme
Surprise
Inactive
I want to echo what Summethyme said, thanks for your service.
I am with you, when someone goes to far as to insinuate I am making things up, I feel like I have to prove the point. There are times you cannot just let it roll off.
night driver
ESFP adrift in INTJ sea
Pardonmy ignorance but how does one find the gallery with firestopr's pics????
