FASCISM Buffalo police shove 75-year-old man to ground, then say he tripped - UPDATE, post 11

[Bax333]

I have seen it from other departments. Hell, I have seen it used by my own teams. The guy is OBVIOUSLY old and fragile. WHY is it such a stretch of the imagination to have someone pull him to the side and talk with him? Why is the first default the use of force? What threat did the old timer pose to a 30 something officer in full battle-rattle?

Sorry, I will NEVER agree that this was the correct path to take.

It was not.

If you think it was, I hope you are not patrolling my streets.

Perhaps they could have sat him down and had a cup of coffee with him. They could discuss world events like why the cities are burning and how many police officers and citizens have been killed and injured by the peaceful protesters. Maybe they could ask him if he had visited the two officers who had been run over by an SUV in Buffalo the other day one of whom had his pelvis smashed. It seems like a pretty good time to do something like that seeing as how they were in "full battle rattle" and heading into a riot situation. Maybe you could volunteer your time and go discuss it with the protesters that way the police could do the job they were hired to do.

I have been in "full battle rattle" in the middle of riots myself. As for me I am glad I never had someone like you watching my backside when I was in that type of situation. Not sure where you worked but I knew guys who had the same self righteous attitude as yours. They would talk nonsense about other officers but somehow they never seemed to be around when the rubber hit the road.

Maybe you should be asking why a 75 year old man could possibly think it's a good idea to approach and confront the officers in that situation. Apparently the 57 police officers in the emergency response team who resigned have a different point of view on the situation than you have also.

 

[Doc1]

When I saw the video I thought not a smart move. Being an old man or a young child does not make you a non combatant.

Dear God. I fully effing understand combatants, non-combatants and that never-to-be-sufficiently-damned nether region of terroristic "activists" who commit various crimes. I fought in a COINOP war in Africa as a soldier and was actually in the thick of the infamous African township riots in South Africa in the 1980s (as a war correspondent). I've been on both ends of the small arms fire - and mortar fire. I've also seen the aftermath of appalling terrorist bombings. So, yeah...I'm a real bleeding heart. Sheesh.

In my worst (or best) "Rambo" days, I never felt the slightest inclination to injure elderly people, white or black, who weren't engaged in violent activities. Frankly, I knew, worked with and trained under some of the most dangerous badasses under God's Sun and never knew any of them who would want to hurt innocent - or even relatively innocent - elderly people. I could offer up a CV and even name names - many of which you could bring up with a quick Google search - and even provide my old corrospondent's nom de plume, which you could also bring up on Google, and some here would still not believe a thing I had to say.

Every group of men in any military, police or other security force will include some psychologically deranged types. In my experience, it is precisely the deranged types who will look for justifications to harm the very young, the infirm and the elderly.

So, my friend, if you want to stretch the definition of "combatant" to include an old man who doesn't immediately hobble out of the way - even if that old man is my ideological enemy - and justify slamming him to the pavement, be my guest.

Just remember what I said about the psychologically deranged types...

Best
Doc

 

[Ragnarok]

Perhaps they could have sat him down and had a cup of coffee with him.

And, what would have been wrong with that?

There was a time in America that was the norm, not some scoffed at ideal. It saddens me we have fallen so far...

I have watched many an instance where police and National Guard have shown a little humility and talked down highly agitated 20-something year olds. But you say knocking a 75 year old on his ass is the way to go? Yeah... sorry to say, I wouldn't have your back on that.

You lack training and you lack compassion. You have no business being in a position of authority.

I have been in "full battle rattle" in the middle of riots myself.

I didn't see a riot, at this time. Maybe, you could point it out...

Apparently the 57 police officers in the emergency response team who resigned have a different point of view on the situation than you have also.

Yeah... They do.

They resigned because their union is not paying legal fees for them. They are still being paid as officers, they are just not on the ERT team, anymore.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1268986570566221825

There is nothing self-righteous about compassion.

It's a damn shame you think so....

 

[Ragnarok]

Dear God. I fully effing understand combatants, non-combatants and that never-to-be-sufficiently-damned nether region of terroristic "activists" who commit various crimes. I fought in a COINOP war in Africa as a soldier and was actually in the thick of the infamous African township riots in South Africa in the 1980s (as a war correspondent). I've been on both ends of the small arms fire - and mortar fire. I've also seen the aftermath of appalling terrorist bombings. So, yeah...I'm a real bleeding heart. Sheesh.

Every group of men in any military, police or other security force will include some psychologically deranged types. In my experience, it is precisely the deranged types who will look for justifications to harm the very young, the infirm and the elderly.

So, my friend, if you want to stretch the definition of "combatant" to include an old man who doesn't immediately hobble out of the way - even if that old man is my ideological enemy - and justify slamming him to the pavement, be my guest.

Just remember what I said about the psychologically deranged types...

Best
Doc

We have more than our share here...

 

[Bax333]

And, what would have been wrong with that?

There was a time in America that was the norm, not some scoffed at ideal. It saddens me we have fallen so far...



I didn't see a riot, at this time. Maybe, you could point it out...



Yeah... They do.

They resigned because their union is not paying legal fees for them.

In case you haven't noticed we are no longer in Kansas with Toto. When this country was predominately White and Christian Andy and Barney could handle it with one bullet between them. Those days are long gone and they are not coming back. From what I can tell we are entering the Great Tribulation which is going to be the worst time in the history of the world.

Do you think maybe you are overreacting just a bit. It's not like the officers took out their batons and beat the man to the ground for God's sake. They pushed him and he fell.

If that is why they resigned then that is my mistake. Who in their right mind would keep doing that assignment if they are not being backed. Where I worked getting sued was considered an occupational hazard and would have bankrupted all of us because eventually everyone got sued.

You know as well as I do that at some point in time the police are going to stop doing their jobs because it is not worth the headaches. They can show up after the suspects are gone and take a report and get paid the same as they get if they arrest the suspect. In LA after the King riots we called it drive and wave policing. If it's that important drop a dime because you are not going to get an officer to stop when you try to flag him down in South Central LA.

Eventually we are going to see a mass exodus from police departments in this country. They already can't find people to take the job. They are hated by the left because they look at them as jack booted thugs. They are distrusted by the right, including myself at times, because they are looked at as possible tools of gun confiscation etc. At some point in time they are going to stop showing up and find something else to do. You know how important morale is in doing that job. The guys I talk to on different departments are burned out and tired of getting shit on by everyone. They are overworked, understaffed and many are already at the breaking point.

Once they go then the citizens get to handle this stuff on their own. Of course they will have the National Guard come in but how much will that help the normal person. The "normal" people I talk to, who are just now waking up to the fact that our country is in deep trouble, are scared to death. They can deal with a 75 year old man but do you really think they can deal with the urban youth that are going to be robbing, raping and pillaging the suburbs when the police are no longer there?

 

[Ragnarok]

Eventually we are going to see a mass exodus from police departments in this country. They already can't find people to take the job. They are hated by the left because they look at them as jack booted thugs. They are distrusted by the right, including myself at times, because they are looked at as possible tools of gun confiscation etc. At some point in time they are going to stop showing up and find something else to do. You know how important morale is in doing that job. The guys I talk to on different departments are burned out and tired of getting shit on by everyone. They are overworked, understaffed and many are already at the breaking point.

Absolutely true...

100% agree.

Is the answer to double down on aggression? Or is it training, training, training?

Look, brother, I can see the faces of those kids on the ERT team... That is what they are. Kids. The two in front that knocked the old-timer down looked to be in their mid-20's. IMHO, the teams that deal with "the shit" need to be staffed with the old guard. Not the desk jockeys that are 2 years from retirement but, definitely, the ones that have more than a few years on the street.

Honestly, I think a lot of these incidents can be eliminated with just putting those with the experience in the front. There is a time for overwhelming force... When being confronted by a senior citizen is not that time.

I hear your frustration but those who enforce the law need to be able to take a step back and say, "Is what I am doing in this instance justifiable? Is it right?"

THESE are the incidents that tear us apart as a country.

 

[Bax333]

Deleted

 

[Bax333]

Absolutely true...

100% agree.

Is the answer to double down on aggression? Or is it training, training, training?

Look, brother, I can see the faces of those kids on the ERT team... That is what they are. Kids. The two in front that knocked the old-timer down looked to be in their mid-20's. IMHO, the teams that deal with "the shit" need to be staffed with the old guard. Not the desk jockeys that are 2 years from retirement but, definitely, the ones that have more than a few years on the street.

Honestly, I think a lot of these incidents can be eliminated with just putting those with the experience in the front. There is a time for overwhelming force... When being confronted by a senior citizen is not that time.

I hear your frustration but those who enforce the law need to be able to take a step back and say, "Is what I am doing in this instance justifiable? Is it right?"

THESE are the incidents that tear us apart as a country.

These are trying times for all of us. I am sorry if I have been combative with you. What is happening to our nation is taking a toll on all of us myself included. God Bless and goodnight.

 

[Ragnarok]

These are trying times for all of us. I am sorry if I have been combative with you. What is happening to our nation is taking a toll on all of us myself included. God Bless and goodnight.

No hard feelings. I returned your fire and I, too, apologize.

 

[David Nettleton]

Consider the media blitz around the nation demonizing the police. Stand back, see the trend. See where this is going? Isn't this an extension of Obama's "war on cops?"

 

[naturallysweet]

Dear God. I fully effing understand combatants, non-combatants and that never-to-be-sufficiently-damned nether region of terroristic "activists" who commit various crimes. I fought in a COINOP war in Africa as a soldier and was actually in the thick of the infamous African township riots in South Africa in the 1980s (as a war correspondent). I've been on both ends of the small arms fire - and mortar fire. I've also seen the aftermath of appalling terrorist bombings. So, yeah...I'm a real bleeding heart. Sheesh.

In my worst (or best) "Rambo" days, I never felt the slightest inclination to injure elderly people, white or black, who weren't engaged in violent activities. Frankly, I knew, worked with and trained under some of the most dangerous badasses under God's Sun and never knew any of them who would want to hurt innocent - or even relatively innocent - elderly people. I could offer up a CV and even name names - many of which you could bring up with a quick Google search - and even provide my old corrospondent's nom de plume, which you could also bring up on Google, and some here would still not believe a thing I had to say.

Every group of men in any military, police or other security force will include some psychologically deranged types. In my experience, it is precisely the deranged types who will look for justifications to harm the very young, the infirm and the elderly.

So, my friend, if you want to stretch the definition of "combatant" to include an old man who doesn't immediately hobble out of the way - even if that old man is my ideological enemy - and justify slamming him to the pavement, be my guest.

Just remember what I said about the psychologically deranged types...

Best
Doc

I'm just hoping the next riot doesn't have 50 old people lined up. Because remember No lives matter to the left. they went to feed us all to the wood chippers and they're happy to use frail elderly people to accomplish their evil.

 

[CaryC]

In case it hasn't been reported:

The other 57 members of the emergency response team (2 of their team where suspended for pushing the old man down) have resigned.

Been seeing it on Fox this AM.

 

[33dInd]

reading all this and point counter point about the age of the the man.
that is not relevant in THAT situation of violent protest and contact.
When I was in Nam, one of the things we were taught was to watch especially close the children as they would send them into soldiers with satchel charges, Now did I ever see that NO. but did it happen.Yes. Dead is dead and combatants do not always dress in uniform.
And talk to the REAL Nazis how effective a non traditional resistance movement can be.
me thinks there is too much hi horse here.

 

[Millwright]

reading all this and point counter point about the age of the the man.
that is not relevant in THAT situation of violent protest and contact.
When I was in Nam, one of the things we were taught was to watch especially close the children as they would send them into soldiers with satchel charges, Now did I ever see that NO. but did it happen.Yes. Dead is dead and combatants do not always dress in uniform.
And talk to the REAL Nazis how effective a non traditional resistance movement can be.
me thinks there is too much hi horse here.

We aren't quite there....yet.

But if you aren't aren't already keeping things like that in the back of your mind, you will find normalcy bias is a dangerous thing.

 

[Dennis Olson]

Perhaps they could have sat him down and had a cup of coffee with him.

And, what would have been wrong with that?

There was a time in America that was the norm, not some scoffed at ideal.

Let’s see here. 10,000 “demonstrators” and 300 cops. Maybe they should set up a bunch of “feelz kiosks”, and have long talks with the “disgruntled citizens.” That ought to take about a week.

You lack training and you lack compassion.

And you lack perspective. Get your ass out into one of these “demonstrations” and report back.


These ain’t the days of Adam-12 anymore. Maybe you don’t understand that Mr. Biden...


(Disclaimer: im not for or against the cops or old man in this thread. Just making a couple points.)

 

[To-late]

I have seen it from other departments. Hell, I have seen it used by my own teams. The guy is OBVIOUSLY old and fragile. WHY is it such a stretch of the imagination to have someone pull him to the side and talk with him? Why is the first default the use of force? What threat did the old timer pose to a 30 something officer in full battle-rattle?

Sorry, I will NEVER agree that this was the correct path to take.

It was not.

If you think it was, I hope you are not patrolling my streets.

While I generally don't disagree with what you post,, I will this time.
The old man on his own accord, walked into the middle of a group of police officers in the process of setting up a deployment line.
Yes he 75 and week. Mental acuity probably hampered by age.
After watching two different videos, I see that he was being avoided as best they could by the officers, ( as they were being herded in to postition by another officer), that is until he put his hand out to touch an officer.
I don't think the officer that did the pushing did anything that would be concidered out of the ordinary in his response.
The officer in a quick motion pushed the man away.
Yep the old man fell backwards.
He fell down and hit his head, which was very unfortunate for everyone.
But I don't think it was an aggressive push other than an instant response to protect the other officer.

 

[parocan]

Buffalo cops caught on video pushing 75-year-old to the ground plead not guilty

Two Buffalo police officers have pleaded not guilty to assault after they were caught on camera shoving a 75-year-old man to the ground during George Floyd protests in the New York city.

www.foxnews.com

so looks like the old man had been a agitator the day before as well and had been asked to leave,
So he knew what he was doing, if your gonna take on the bulls, expect to get gored.


Two Buffalo police officers have pleaded not guilty to assault after they were caught on camera shoving a 75-year-old man to the ground during George Floyd protests in the New York city.
Officers Robert McCabe and Aaron Torgalski were both charged with second-degree assault, a class D felony. They were both released without bail after the hearing and will return to court July 20.
The officers have been suspended without pay and an internal affairs investigation launched after the incident was caught on video and showed the man, Martin Gugino, bleeding on the sidewalk. Gov. Andrew Cuomo said the video made him “sick to my stomach”.

Byron Brown, the mayor of Buffalo, N.Y., said Friday the 75-year-old man who was shoved to the ground by two cops the previous day was an “agitator” who had been asked to leave the area “numerous” times.

Gugino was caught on camera being shoved to the ground by officers in tactical gear shortly after a curfew went into effect near Niagara Square.

57 BUFFALO COPS RESIGN FROM RESPONSE TEAM AFTER OFFICERS SUSPENDED FOR SHOVING 75-YEAR-OLD MAN TO GROUND; DA INVESTIGATING INCIDENT

 

[TheSearcher]

Buffalo cops caught on video pushing 75-year-old to the ground plead not guilty

Two Buffalo police officers have pleaded not guilty to assault after they were caught on camera shoving a 75-year-old man to the ground during George Floyd protests in the New York city.

www.foxnews.com

so looks like the old man had been a agitator the day before as well and had been asked to leave,
So he knew what he was doing, if your gonna take on the bulls, expect to get gored.


Two Buffalo police officers have pleaded not guilty to assault after they were caught on camera shoving a 75-year-old man to the ground during George Floyd protests in the New York city.
Officers Robert McCabe and Aaron Torgalski were both charged with second-degree assault, a class D felony. They were both released without bail after the hearing and will return to court July 20.
The officers have been suspended without pay and an internal affairs investigation launched after the incident was caught on video and showed the man, Martin Gugino, bleeding on the sidewalk. Gov. Andrew Cuomo said the video made him “sick to my stomach”.

Byron Brown, the mayor of Buffalo, N.Y., said Friday the 75-year-old man who was shoved to the ground by two cops the previous day was an “agitator” who had been asked to leave the area “numerous” times.

Gugino was caught on camera being shoved to the ground by officers in tactical gear shortly after a curfew went into effect near Niagara Square.

57 BUFFALO COPS RESIGN FROM RESPONSE TEAM AFTER OFFICERS SUSPENDED FOR SHOVING 75-YEAR-OLD MAN TO GROUND; DA INVESTIGATING INCIDENT

I was just getting on the thread to talk about this aspect, thank you.

The oldster has apparently been "down with struggle" for quite some time, probably his entire adult life. I would not be at all surprised if he was just like the Antifa guys we talk of right now, back in the day, and has kept his hand in the movement as his capability allowed. I would also not be surprised if he felt these protests might be his last hurrah, and decided to be as much of a PITA as possible. Given that he had prior contact during these events and came back for more, that really seems certain. He was no innocent, folks should stop acting like he was.

It seems his purpose was to impede and distract. Impedance was not really likely given he was one man, and an older one at that. But distraction? Oh, you bet. Get him on the TV, even if he didn't get injured, and the footage is gold. Getting him on TV and INJURED? Whoa Nellie, even the people being protested against start clutching pearls.

The "shove" was very light, and it was rightfully defensive by police because the guy was getting grabby. People getting grabby with policemen in a high-tension, high-population situation is never going to be well-received, and for good reason. I'd say that he was treated lightly in actuality, probably partly due to his age, and they were trying to avoid the distraction of a melee. A younger person probably would have gotten a beat-down for trying to reach for the officers and/or their stuff. Instead they pushed him off, then he proceeded to stumble. The didn't tackle him or bodyslam him, he wasn't clotheslined. He stumbled a number of steps on his own then fell.

Then, he wasn't ignored, an officer got him medical help as quickly as possible, and was taken to the hospital ASAP. The police weren't brutal, and neither did they as a group get distracted by his injuries and disrupt the entire mission. The old man failed his tactical intent, but judging by some responses here, the strategic goals to induce angst with the "injured old guy" optics is working.

 

[Grounded Idealist]

That poor man might die. He hit the back of his head on the concrete sidewalk and immediately blood started flowing out of his right ear. That is a severe brain-bleed injury.

Or a total acting job.
He’s not “a poor man”. He chose to be there, after curfew, approaching riot police. To me, he’s the poster child for “asking for trouble.”

 

[Bicycle Junkie]

A total acting job with blood suddenly flowing from his ear?

I suppose you thought the Sandy Hook parents were play actors too, and the dancing Israelis brought down the twin towers.

 

[Laurane]

Looked like a couple of camo helmeted medics?? arrived within 20 secs to help him. Someone did, maybe protecting him from being trampled?

 

[thompson]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1269143409148801025

View: https://twitter.com/PimpG18/status/1269143409148801025?s=20

 

[thompson]

Martin Gugino Twitter feed

 

[Hfcomms]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1269143409148801025

View: https://twitter.com/PimpG18/status/1269143409148801025?s=20

My dog Karma would say that is karma.

 

[Tex88]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1269143409148801025

View: https://twitter.com/PimpG18/status/1269143409148801025?s=20

"We was just following orders" hasn't been an acceptable defense since 1945.

 

[libertylover]

I am just curious, what exactly should the police have done in this situation?

 

[Tex88]

I am just curious, what exactly should the police have done in this situation?

Not shove septuagenarians to the ground?

 

[naturallysweet]

Not shove septuagenarians to the ground?

Since he took multiple steps backwards. He wasn't shoved to the ground.
What should they have done? He was being handsy with their weapons and was a known agitator. Regardless of age that makes him a terrorist in my book.
What should they have done with the elderly terrorist? Grabbed him and handcuffed him and throw him to the ground? That's what would have happened to anyone else.

 

[NoMoreLibs]

Do you think people have a right to open their businesses? How about gathering for church?

Dude (chick?), don't be a drama queen. Not what I said and you know it. Twisting things. Yeah, he could be there but SHOULD have he been there? No. It was stupid and he was looking for trouble. I'm sure we'll find that he's a long time commie.

 

[Flashyzipp]

My heart broke for this man because he could have dementia and was just trying to walk home. My Dad died 2 years ago and would have fallen down the same way. He did not have Alzheimer’s but used to get very confused. He fell a lot.

 

[Yogizorch]

Biden is a couple years older than this guy.....and has dementia.

 

[summerthyme]

My heart broke for this man because he could have dementia and was just trying to walk home. My Dad died 2 years ago and would have fallen down the same way. He did not have Alzheimer’s but used to get very confused. He fell a lot.

Well... except that he's a longtime known agitator who was actively participating in the "protests" over previous days.

But admittedly, he is clearly adept at using his "aged" appearance to gain sympathy, and likely advantage. It's a shame people fall for it.

Summerthyme

 

[Yogizorch]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1269143409148801025

View: https://twitter.com/PimpG18/status/1269143409148801025?s=20

He forgot to put his "protest"/riot helmet on.

 

[thompson]

Well, well, well...

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1269318996278435841

View: https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/1269318996278435841?s=20

 

[thompson]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1269319919994167297

View: https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/1269319919994167297?s=20

 

[thompson]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1269320888958124033

View: https://twitter.com/luxaeternal/status/1269320888958124033?s=20

 

[Betty_Rose]

That poor man might die. He hit the back of his head on the concrete sidewalk and immediately blood started flowing out of his right ear. That is a severe brain-bleed injury.

Right.

And a 75-year-old man could die from falling at home or getting out of the tub or turning off the TV. He was elderly and infirm but when he reached toward that line of marching police officers, he was a protester blocking police officers charged with a specific task.

I have zero sympathy for an old man interfering with cops in the middle of this insanity.

 

[Truthsearch]

All of you who think what the cops did is somehow OK are disgusting. How would you like it if that was your grandpa or grandfather? Pig cops are lucky they didn’t murder this poor old man. Even more sickening is them just walking right over him.

 

[JF&P]

All of you who think what the cops did is somehow OK are disgusting. How would you like it if that was your grandpa or grandfather? Pig cops are lucky they didn’t murder this poor old man. Even more sickening is them just walking right over him.

I think YOU belong on another forum....you have the wrong attitude...this is ****ING WAR....or have you not been paying attention...which you clearly illustrate here.

I'm 73 and dying of congestive heart failure....anyone my age who shows up in/at a riot....DESERVES WHAT THEY GET!!!

These rioters are evil as they intend to DESTROY MY AMERICA....

BTW your handle "truthsearch" is a lie....so go ****yourself

 

[Truthsearch]

I think YOU belong on another forum....you have the wrong attitude...this is ****ING WAR....or have you not been paying attention...which is how your comments appear.

I'm 73 and dying of congestive heart failure....anyone my age who shows up in/at a riot....DESERVES WHAT THEY GET!!!

With your lack of respect to the 1st Amendment of the constitution perhaps YOU belong in a different country......you have the wrong attitude.....this is a free nation where we have freedom of speech and the right to not be brutalized by police. The way your comments appear it seems you would enjoy Nazi Germany.