20Gauge
TB Fanatic
These are soy boys.... they don't have the equipment..... silly.... just silly.....
CRISIS Ammo shortage about to get even worse
- Thread starter Thinwater
- Start date
20Gauge
TB Fanatic
I know I know.... stop reminding me..... lol
SmithJ
Veteran Member
Too many factors to generalize; it depends on the load of the particular shell, and on the barrel length and choke of the shotgun. The best way to know is to pattern a particular load in your shotgun.
20Gauge
TB Fanatic
I grew up with the ERA going around. I still believe in equality in total for both men and women. So if a woman hits me, I am more than willing to hit back. It would be dis-respectful not to hit back as that is what I would do for a man.
Doc, the only realistic answer to those questions is "IT DEPENDS."
On LOTS of variables. Shotgun patterning with buckshot is more art than science, but there is a good deal of science available these days that wasn't in years gone by.
With access to a variety of loads, it is/was possible to pick your pattern at any reasonable range. Cheap buckshot with soft lead pellets, fiber wads, no shot cup or collar and no ground plastic shot filler would produce pellets which look faceted at the muzzle after the shock of firing and the trip down the bore unprotected. That meant wide open patterns at shorter ranges - an OK thing IF that is what was desired. Actual scattergunning, in other words.
Much of my shotgun training came at the capable hands of Louis Awerbuck, known to many as the Yoda of fighting shotguns. Louis insisted that every pellet had a lawyer attached and that pattern control was a necessity for those who chose buckshot as a defensive load. Louis himself carried a cut down double barrel on his travels across the country (after he left Gunsite and went out on his own as an itinerant instructor) and always had a pair of 12 ga. slugs on his belt. He joked that he was not smart enough to keep track of more than one kind of shotgun ammunition.
Back to the pattern continuum, brand name run of the mill buckshot usually produces better patterns at longer ranges. It costs a bit more per round and usually has harder lead alloy pellets that are better protected.
Best results at longest ranges generally come from more expensive premium loads. Federal LE127-00 is my preferred load, see it at Premium 12 Gauge Ammo For Sale - 2-3/4" 00 Buck Ammunition in Stock by Federal LE Tactical - 5 Rounds (good luck finding it in stock anywhere these days). The premium loads have hard alloy pellets, usually plated, in a retarding one piece shot cup/wad that keeps the pellets together upon exiting the muzzle for a bit. They can produce patterns out of an open choke riot gun that some people define as TOO tight. My bedside shotgun with a Police CYL choke (.002-.003" constriction) will keep nine pellets on a 3X5 card at 30-40 yards as a rule.
Usually, tighter chokes will actually open up patterns with these loads.
I have long said that every shotgun barrel is a law unto itself where patterning is concerned. I have seen nothing in the past 15 years to change my mind on that.
On LOTS of variables. Shotgun patterning with buckshot is more art than science, but there is a good deal of science available these days that wasn't in years gone by.
With access to a variety of loads, it is/was possible to pick your pattern at any reasonable range. Cheap buckshot with soft lead pellets, fiber wads, no shot cup or collar and no ground plastic shot filler would produce pellets which look faceted at the muzzle after the shock of firing and the trip down the bore unprotected. That meant wide open patterns at shorter ranges - an OK thing IF that is what was desired. Actual scattergunning, in other words.
Much of my shotgun training came at the capable hands of Louis Awerbuck, known to many as the Yoda of fighting shotguns. Louis insisted that every pellet had a lawyer attached and that pattern control was a necessity for those who chose buckshot as a defensive load. Louis himself carried a cut down double barrel on his travels across the country (after he left Gunsite and went out on his own as an itinerant instructor) and always had a pair of 12 ga. slugs on his belt. He joked that he was not smart enough to keep track of more than one kind of shotgun ammunition.
Back to the pattern continuum, brand name run of the mill buckshot usually produces better patterns at longer ranges. It costs a bit more per round and usually has harder lead alloy pellets that are better protected.
Best results at longest ranges generally come from more expensive premium loads. Federal LE127-00 is my preferred load, see it at Premium 12 Gauge Ammo For Sale - 2-3/4" 00 Buck Ammunition in Stock by Federal LE Tactical - 5 Rounds (good luck finding it in stock anywhere these days). The premium loads have hard alloy pellets, usually plated, in a retarding one piece shot cup/wad that keeps the pellets together upon exiting the muzzle for a bit. They can produce patterns out of an open choke riot gun that some people define as TOO tight. My bedside shotgun with a Police CYL choke (.002-.003" constriction) will keep nine pellets on a 3X5 card at 30-40 yards as a rule.
Usually, tighter chokes will actually open up patterns with these loads.
I have long said that every shotgun barrel is a law unto itself where patterning is concerned. I have seen nothing in the past 15 years to change my mind on that.
CaryC
Has No Life - Lives on TB
In hunting, say, whitetails, 00 Buck would be considered a brush gun, undergrowth etc. So the range would be limited, as in the 150 feet max range. And at that range, with a 30" full choke you might get 3-5 out of 9, pellets in a deer. Slugs with the right barrel could go 100 yards + range. Depending on where those pellets hit, the deer would go down, or not.
If you are thinking as a defensive weapon 18-20 inch barrel with an open bore, you're probably looking at 75 feet max with 3-5 pellets striking the perp. The perp would be hurt or dead, depending on where those pellets hit.
Inside the home or property of a suburban home and not being a sniper shooter, ideal.
There are variations on that if using say 3 inch mag's or 3 1/2 inch. My view was for 2 3/4, the most common.
The best thing to do is buy one either for defense or hunting, go way out in the woods with a couple of boxes and do some target practice at different ranges and see what your shotgun will do, so you will know. Make the target a sheet of plywood - quartered.
And if it doesn't do what you want, then sell it, it's a seller's market out there.
CaryC
Has No Life - Lives on TB
Hit a girl? My reply: I believe in equality of the sexes. You throw stuff at me or hit me....expect the same in return.
Jackpine Savage
Veteran Member
Great Primer Shortage of 2020 - Guns and Ammo
It's no secret that the demand for firearms and ammunition have reached record levels due to the COVID-19 pandemic, the civil unrest in cities around the United States, and the prospect of an anti-gun president on the horizon. As with previous surges in ammunition sales, primers are the current
www.gunsandammo.com
Great Primer Shortage of 2020
It’s no secret that the demand for firearms and ammunition has reached record levels due to the COVID-19 pandemic, the civil unrest in cities around the United States, and the prospect of an anti-gun president on the horizon. As with previous surges in ammunition sales, primers are the current weak link in the supply chain. After interviewing several manufacturers, Guns & Ammo has learned that the lack of primer supply is a part of what’s preventing ammunition makers from meeting this unprecedented demand.
We have seen shortages before. When the semi-auto ban was passed in 1994, there was a shortage. In 2008, when Barack Obama was elected president and again in 2012 through 2013 during the aftermath of the tragic Sandy Hook School shooting. According to various sources, manufacturers are confirming to us that we are in the midst of the greatest primer shortage of all time.
Bullets are relatively simple to produce. Brass cases can be reused and powder is still plentiful. Hence, primer production is the bottleneck in ammunition production process. Though there are dozens of major and minor ammunition manufacturers in the U.S., only four domestic manufacturers produce primers: Federal, CCI, Remington and Winchester. Those four firms feed the entire primer supply including ammunition sold to the military and law enforcement. Millions upon millions of primers are produced every year by these companies.
Like any product, primer manufacturing is designed to meet the average demand. Just as we saw with toilet paper, when individuals begin hoarding, supply dries-up quickly. When customers who ordinarily purchases 100 rounds of 9mm practice ammunition per year suddenly begin buying several thousand rounds at a time, there is no way for production to keep up with that the effects of that demand. Many warehouses that suffered through the “Trump slump” in sales have been wiped out.
Internationally, primers are manufactured by several firms in different parts of the world. Armscor in the Philippines, for example, Sellier & Bellot in the Czech Republic, Fiocchi in Italy and JSC in Russia are some of the more prominent companies. An industry insider told G&A that several million primers are currently en route from Europe to the U.S. by way of ship, which may help meet at least some of the demand for loaded ammunition. Still, those primers need to arrive, be offloaded, clear customs and then be distributed to the various manufacturers who can use them to produce ammunition. This will take time.
Primer manufacturers are working hard to feed the market. “We continue to operate at full capacity and are committed to meeting the current strong demand for ammunition and primers.” Federal representatives told G&A. Remington is also working overtime: “We are producing at record levels to attempt to satisfy the unprecedented demand for primers in support of the hand loading consumer, our own loaded rounds, and our industry partners loaded rounds.”
In the meantime, customers shopping for ammo are likely to see “sold out,” “product temporarily unavailable” or “out of stock” in stores and on the websites of popular online retailers. Gun store ammunition shelves have been emptied of common cartridges such as .380 ACP, 9mm, 5.56 NATO/.223 and .45 ACP. Ammunition that was available by the pallet load in January is all but unobtainable today. Customers are scrambling for product, so retailers are getting creative.
One company in particular has come up with an innovative solution to the current shortage. Nevada-based Super Vel Ammunition came up with a Bring Your Own Primer (BYOP) program where customers who are able to find primers at retailers such as Brownells or Midway USA can have them shipped to the company’s location where they will be used to load factory ammunition for you. Super Vel told G&A that more than 500,000 primers have been shipped by customers in just a few days.
COVID-19, rioting on urban streets and a historic election have created a perfect storm for firearm and ammunition sales. Don’t expect the demand for ammunition and components to wane anytime soon. If popular polls are correct and Joe Biden is elected to be the next president in November, the real prospect of anti-gun legislation is likely to create even more demand yet. Hang on, folks.
doctor_fungcool
TB Fanatic
Tnx
ArisenCarcass
Veteran Member
The Box o' Truth #20 buckshot patterns
The Box O' Truth #20 - Buckshot Patterns
On a recent post about sight off-set, we discussed using 00 Buckshot at close range. My friend dport wrote me and said, "I believe that the new "Reduced recoil" loads will pattern smaller than what you shot. Also, I've heard that they pattern smaller at longer ranges. If I sent you some ammo...
www.theboxotruth.com
Another good resource is Ballistics By The Inch.
I also frequent BBTI for my rough ballistics-to-barrel-length needs
1911user
Veteran Member
No one has been threatening to ban magazines, yet. In the past, the threat of a ban on AR's, mags, etc. caused people to stock up and buy all the supply. This year, people are stocking due to perceived/real threats, not potential bans. They're primarily looking for weapons and ammo, not all the mags needed for a lifetime. That could change as the election gets closer and the ban rhetoric increases as a political issue. It is a good time to make sure you have what you want to have mag-wise.
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doctor_fungcool
TB Fanatic
Beautifully written...and chocked full of facts. I will read your post several times to obtain the full impact of it.
chumly2071
Contributing Member
I have not seen a mass out of stock scenario being reported yet on mags, but the recent ruling on the magazine ban in CA has caused a huge spike in reported orders and shipments to CA, presumably before their courts meet en banc and potentially (probably) reverse the constitutionality ruling on the magazine capacity limit laws. Something to consider should you desire to up your inventory at this time.
Beautifully written...and chocked full of facts.
Thanks! Only about the 47th time I have written it over the years
Earlier iterations can be seen at THR - The High Road
Thanks! Only about the 47th time I have written it over the years
Earlier iterations can be seen at THR - The High Road
ArisenCarcass
Veteran Member
When I was in HS, we had a bunch of predators and nuisance animals that kept coming around.
Normal waiting usually missed them, so I'd bait them in with caged rabbits (which we raised) in the field and injured rabbit recordings.
I must've taken out 100 coyotes and raccoons.
I always used a quiet 10-22 with an ancient NV scope on it from 50-75 yards, sometimes further.
I have no idea what my father did with that rifle after I left, but it isn't here anymore.
I wouldn't have trusted a shotgun to not hit the bait animals.
DazedandConfused
Veteran Member
Easy fix, HIT them hard enough and fast enough that they can't scream..
1911user
Veteran Member
I'm happy to see many, many mags going to CA. I'm afraid that they're more likely to be needed there.
It was obvious 2-3 years ago that 2020 was going to be a crazy year just from the election activity alone.
I decided to have any important planned purchases in hand before 1-1-2020.
chumly2071
Contributing Member
More than thankful I am able to spectate on this particular series of panic buys (firearms related, anyway). Trying to expand in other areas at this time, possibly worthy of other threads, after I do some searching. Need to up my game, or even start my game on other facets of beans, bullets and bandaids.
desertvet2
Veteran Member
South African 7.62×51 Battle Packs $34.95 each...
In the closet
In the closet
I'm running through some that were bought in the late 80s, early 90's. No special storage methods.
Zero problems so far. Always, ymmv.
How long can primers be stored. Do they get old and no longer any good?
[/QUOTE]
Current manufacture primers when stored in temperature controlled, low humidity environment should last indefinitely. Older primers from WW2 and prior may have possibility of degradation because of chemical makeup. My brother is still shooting WW2 military surplus Enfield .303 that I bought back in the early 1970's from Sarco with maybe 1 in 10 misfires because of age.
[/QUOTE]
Current manufacture primers when stored in temperature controlled, low humidity environment should last indefinitely. Older primers from WW2 and prior may have possibility of degradation because of chemical makeup. My brother is still shooting WW2 military surplus Enfield .303 that I bought back in the early 1970's from Sarco with maybe 1 in 10 misfires because of age.
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Doc1
Has No Life - Lives on TB
Thanks, Doz. That was one of the best-written pieces on buckshot I've seen in many a day. Very worthwhile reading for anyone who passed it by while skimming the thread!
Best
Doc
That field has been plowed for some years now. See for example the blog piece below. More at Laissez Firearm
==================
Buckshot Patterning Test Results
by LF (7/98)
My piece on the NATO L110 tracer round generated a fair amount of responses, so I thought that I'd plumb the same basic ground with a bit on shotgun buckshot patterning. I've read dozens of gun articles and books that mention the importance of learning the size of the groups that come from a "tactical" shotgun, for the obvious reason that this will establish the distance at which a round can reliably be expected to achieve the shooter's desired goal.
Be warned that a major point of this exercise is that EVERY SHOTGUN IS DIFFERENT, so do not take my results as a guide for your own firearm. Go to a gun show or a well-stocked shop and buy as many different large-pellet loads as you can find, and then go through a similar process before settling upon your own choice!
I took nine different 00-buck loads to the range one day, and ran them through my original Beretta 1201FP, which has a 20-inch unchoked barrel with rifle sights. I decided to do the testing at 15 yards, and used a single B-27 silhouette for each series. I fired five rounds of each brand, stopping after every shot to patch up the target with a different-color paster. It was a hot day, and I had a cheap tape measure, so I only figured the resulting holes to the nearest quarter of an inch. None of the pellets landed off their target, so no "make-up" shots were necessary:
Oh-ho, but it gets even better! I was intrigued by the differing results, and fired another series with my first Beretta with the Federal Tactical. Three rounds into this, I ran out of the original boxes I started out with (the rest were already stored in ammo cans back home), and switched to members of a second 250-round case lot that I just got in. Suddenly I started tossing much larger groups!
The first three averaged 10.8", but the next two rounds patterned at 16" and 12" respectively.
I finally straightened this discrepancy out this weekend, ending up with the following in a side-by-side comparison:
The moral of this story? Cripes, I guess that the consistency of shotgun cartridges is one heck of a lot trickier to predict than rifle or pistol ammo. If you find something that you like, try to get more of the same case lot!
==================
Buckshot Patterning Test Results
laissezfirearm.info
Buckshot Patterning Test Results
by LF (7/98)
My piece on the NATO L110 tracer round generated a fair amount of responses, so I thought that I'd plumb the same basic ground with a bit on shotgun buckshot patterning. I've read dozens of gun articles and books that mention the importance of learning the size of the groups that come from a "tactical" shotgun, for the obvious reason that this will establish the distance at which a round can reliably be expected to achieve the shooter's desired goal.
Be warned that a major point of this exercise is that EVERY SHOTGUN IS DIFFERENT, so do not take my results as a guide for your own firearm. Go to a gun show or a well-stocked shop and buy as many different large-pellet loads as you can find, and then go through a similar process before settling upon your own choice!
I took nine different 00-buck loads to the range one day, and ran them through my original Beretta 1201FP, which has a 20-inch unchoked barrel with rifle sights. I decided to do the testing at 15 yards, and used a single B-27 silhouette for each series. I fired five rounds of each brand, stopping after every shot to patch up the target with a different-color paster. It was a hot day, and I had a cheap tape measure, so I only figured the resulting holes to the nearest quarter of an inch. None of the pellets landed off their target, so no "make-up" shots were necessary:
- Remington Extended Range 12-Pellet Magnum
- Largest Group: 21"
- Smallest Group: 16.25"
Average Group Size: 19.3"
- Estate Cartridge Standard 9-Pellet
- Largest Group: 18.75"
- Smallest Group: 14.5"
Average Group Size: 16.5"
- Remington Reduced Recoil 9-Pellet
- Largest Group: 15.25"
- Smallest Group: 13"
Average Group Size: 14.2"
- Federal Standard 9-Pellet
- Largest Group: 15"
- Smallest Group: 12"
Average Group Size: 13.9"
- Eley 12-Pellet
- Largest Group: 15.5"
- Smallest Group: 12"
Average Group Size: 13.9"
- Sellier & Bellot 12-Pellet
- Largest Group: 14.25"
- Smallest Group: 12"
Average Group Size: 13.4"
- Winchester Standard 9-Pellet
- Largest Group: 15.33"
- Smallest Group: 11.75"
Average Group Size: 13.1"
- Remington Standard 9-Pellet
- Largest Group: 13.5"
- Smallest Group: 11.5"
Average Group Size: 12.33"
- Federal Tactical (Reduced Recoil) 9-Pellet
- Largest Group: 13"
- Smallest Group: 8.66"
Average Group Size: 11.2"
- Remington Standard 9-Pellet
- Largest Group: 16.33"
- Smallest Group: 10.5"
Average Group Size: 13.6"
- Winchester Standard 9-Pellet
- Largest Group: 12.25"
- Smallest Group: 9.75"
Average Group Size: 10.6"
- Federal Tactical (Reduced Recoil) 9-Pellet
- Largest Group: 12.5"
- Smallest Group: 9.25"
Average Group Size: 10.4"
Oh-ho, but it gets even better! I was intrigued by the differing results, and fired another series with my first Beretta with the Federal Tactical. Three rounds into this, I ran out of the original boxes I started out with (the rest were already stored in ammo cans back home), and switched to members of a second 250-round case lot that I just got in. Suddenly I started tossing much larger groups!
The first three averaged 10.8", but the next two rounds patterned at 16" and 12" respectively.
I finally straightened this discrepancy out this weekend, ending up with the following in a side-by-side comparison:
- Federal Tactical 00-Buck (Case Lot #214R071)
- Largest Group: 15"
- Smallest Group: 10.75"
Average Group Size: 12.66"
- Federal Tactical 00-Buck (Case Lot #114Y275)
- Largest Group: 11"
- Smallest Group: 9.5"
Average Group Size: 10.5"
The moral of this story? Cripes, I guess that the consistency of shotgun cartridges is one heck of a lot trickier to predict than rifle or pistol ammo. If you find something that you like, try to get more of the same case lot!
I just did a short video in my back yard to see what it does on a 2/3 size upper body silhouette from 50 yards, a #4 Turkey load at 50 yards and a 00 buck shot at 75 yards.
The target is steel plate with orange paper stuck to it to see the hits.
The 50 yard shot with 00 buck covered the target well, most hit, some went off but most or all may have stayed on a full size human.
The 50 yard #4, 1 7/8 oz Turkey load covered the paper with many holes. You would probably bleed out fast from this hit, but it is for sure the max I would feel confident with this load.
I shot once from 75 yards with 00 buck. Only one pellet hit, it was between the eyes but just lucky on where it hit. A full size human would have been hit more so if you just have to take down a person, it is good to almost 75 yards.
This was all with a full size Remington 870 pump 12 ga. 2 3/4 " 00 buck and a 3" Magnum #4 Turkey load.
I will post the video within the hour. Keep in mind, I am over 6'05" 240 lbs for scale when comparing to the target.
doctor_fungcool
TB Fanatic
No problem, the other posts were testing at 15 yards and I saw that your question involved use at longer ranges. I never put one on paper farther than 25 yards when I qualified as a cop, I just killed critters with them at under 50 yards so it was good for me to see.
A few years ago I got a bunch of primers from the 60s. Loaded them into 45 ACP and all shot fine. They were stored in an ammo can in a basement. On the other hand I had a guy give me about 1500 pcs of primed mixed 223/556 brass that he picked up at a gun show years ago. I loaded them up and about a third are duds. Sucks. They are sitting in a bucket waiting to be pulled down for the components. Oldest ammo I ever shot was 5 rds of 45-70 from about 1890. It was 110 yrs old when I shot it and 3 of the 5 went off. I have no idea how they were stored. I do know they were in my buddys Dads top drawer of workbench rolling around for at least 30 years. I have about 30 rounds of 45 acp headstamped 1911 but I dont want to shoot it as I think it is pretty cool. One type of old ammo I wont shoot is the WW2 German steel case. I have pulled down a number of them and almost all were rusted from the inside.
12 GA at 50 yards. 2 1/2 minutes. Remember, the camera adds 20 lbs. Thats my story and I am sticking to it. After watching the video, I think I aimed to high on the 75 yard shot. I will have to do that again tomorrow when it is daylight again.
Voortrekker
Veteran Member
OutPost Armory in Christiana, Tennessee on I 24 exit 89 had a good assourtment of 30'06, Creeedmoor and now the really bad news. Pallets!! of M-43 ammo Barnaul 500 ($160) round cases and Wolf 1000 ($290) round cases and 12 ga. 250 shells cases, TulAmmo 45 ACP 500 ($200?) round cases, Magtech 38 Special and at sort of not quite pre-covid1984 prices with inflation costs.
So for those of you who are in Sacramento, CA you won't need to drive to Grants Pass, Oregon. Just take I 80 east to Omaha, NE to I 29 S to I 49 S to I 40 eastbound to I 24 sb. There, Bob's your uncle! Yes, you must drive past Cabela's in Reno.
I bought an ammo can (made in USA) and a gun sock. Oh, they're moving from Christiana northward toward Murfreesboro exit 80.
So for those of you who are in Sacramento, CA you won't need to drive to Grants Pass, Oregon. Just take I 80 east to Omaha, NE to I 29 S to I 49 S to I 40 eastbound to I 24 sb. There, Bob's your uncle! Yes, you must drive past Cabela's in Reno.
I bought an ammo can (made in USA) and a gun sock. Oh, they're moving from Christiana northward toward Murfreesboro exit 80.
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bobfall2005
Veteran Member
Wave 1 is coming. By Friday.
Wave 2 should happen by end of August.
The pre buys, November.
It's out there. If you want it.
Wave 2 should happen by end of August.
The pre buys, November.
It's out there. If you want it.
bw
Fringe Ranger
Care to explain?
bobfall2005
Veteran Member
1st orders, Friday.
2nd orders, end of August.
Pre order shows up November.
2nd orders, end of August.
Pre order shows up November.
bw
Fringe Ranger
Are you talking about some particular store? The world in general? A little explanation would help.
Bobfall explained it in Post #438.