USA 93-year-old Man freezes to death after city limits electricity

[Loon]

This was clearly a tragedy. But things happen.

For all those who claim this is "murder" and "someone should hang"...

1. At what age do we get our electricity for FREE?
2

Nobody is suggesting that people get free utilities. What I would suggest is that before you cut off someone's heat in the middle of January in below freezing temperatures.........you send a real, live person out to do a face to face with the customer to find out what the problem is.

Many older people cannot navigate the phone system. I have an older brother in law who comes to my house to call in his medicine for her to Veterans because he can't figure out how to navigate the system and press in his informaiton on the buttons. My elderly mother didn't even own a push button phone. She was the only person I knew who still had a rotary dial.

If someone had just come to talk to him in person before they actually took his very life, he could have been spared. He had the cash to pay. He needed help.

I don't think that is asking too much for a rep from the company to come to the door to talk to the customer. They used to do it down in Detroit I know.

Customer service is not what it used to be.

 

[dissimulo]

Bay City's city manager says a notice is placed on a door on your home to alert you a limiter has been installed.
Schur's tag was apparently still on his front door when his body was found.

http://abclocal.go.com/wjrt/story?section=news/local&id=6625291&rss=rss-wjrt-article-6625291


I really can't see blaming the power company for this. Sometimes, nobody is at fault. Sounds like this guy was having troubles before the power situation developed and had nobody around to notice.


Power companies do power, not social work. If they did social work, everyone would be complaining about the extra amount on their bills.

 

[Dobbin]

The next thing that will happen is that people will demand that electricity cannot be cut off in summer, cuz it gets hot and people need AC.

Well, that comment, even in jest, is close to how many people view electricity.

My dad, who worked for the electric utility for nearly 40 years made the comment that "We've done our jobs too well. Electricity is as plentiful as the rain, as cheap, and has become essential to our way of life." He hit the nail on the head harder than I care to admit.

In the late 1940s he worked for Worcester County Electric Company. One of his jobs as a young engineer was to bring Southbridge, MA into the electric grid. For those who know the area, you'll know that Southbridge was/is the home of American Optical. And AO was the sole employer in the town. All the town electricity was generated by AO and consequently, they also had the electricity turned off at night between the hours of 11 p.m. and 6 a.m. when the factory was shut down too. At Noon lunch hour the electric was turned off for an hour.

Everyone in town was used to the schedule. Heck, they set their clocks by the sound of the factory whistle. But it was my father's job to be liason between the factory, the town fathers and the power company to bring them into the "grid" with 24/7/365 power.

After full time power was brought to the town, it took all of 2 days for everyone to adjust to the "lack" of schedule. There was a run of sales of electric clocks at the Worcester County Electric Company store that had been set up in the center of town in anticipation.

We're only slightly more "locked" into the system now. And those of a "social" bent may view electricity as a "right" as a result. Part and parcel to our "American Way of Life." Kind of like banking and autombile companies, and employment and health care.

Another "fence?" Most assuredly, I can tell you that is not the case.

Joe

 

[mbo]

Nobody is suggesting that people get free utilities. What I would suggest is that before you cut off someone's heat in the middle of January in below freezing temperatures.........you send a real, live person out to do a face to face with the customer to find out what the problem is.

Many older people cannot navigate the phone system. I have an older brother in law who comes to my house to call in his medicine for her to Veterans because he can't figure out how to navigate the system and press in his informaiton on the buttons. My elderly mother didn't even own a push button phone. She was the only person I knew who still had a rotary dial.

If someone had just come to talk to him in person before they actually took his very life, he could have been spared. He had the cash to pay. He needed help.

I don't think that is asking too much for a rep from the company to come to the door to talk to the customer. They used to do it down in Detroit I know.

Customer service is not what it used to be.

Yes, which I mentioned in that same post.

But I was addressing the very clear "suggestion" in the thread that somehow electricity should be free, along with the rest of the demands for free-everything (water, gas, mortgages, tax rebates even when you pay no income taxes, etc. etc. etc. etc.).

As for Detroit, I don't think they ever shut off electricity there.

 

[Dazed]

This was clearly a tragedy. But things happen.

For all those who claim this is "murder" and "someone should hang"...

1. At what age do we get our electricity for FREE?
2. If what income level do we get our electricity for FREE?
3. If we forget to pay our bills do we get our electricity for FREE?
4. How much should EVERYONE ELSE pay extra in their electric bills to cover the cost of #1,2,3? Remembering that it is 100% passed over to others, who may also be struggling to pay their bills.
5. Does this also cover all other utilities? Gas, water, etc. Do we also get those for free after a certain age or a certain income level?
6. Do we get our houses for free if we reach a certain age or income level?
7. Do we get to skip our taxes if we reach a certain age or income level?
8. And how much should everyone else be willing to foist onto their bills to cover those of #5,6,7 above?
9. Who should "hang"? Is it just the executives and all the managers? Or does it also cover everyone who works in the utility?
10. What happens to the utility when they provide electricity for free for everybody, or there are no employees left because everyone has been "hung"?

I agree wholeheartedly that cut-offs in January in Michigan require a MUCH higher degree of investigation, and this was a horrible mistake. But it's incredible to think that mistakes never occur, or that this already quasi-public utility would somehow be run better if it was wholly run by the state of Michigan. All that would mean is that electric bills would be EVEN higher, leading to more and more people getting their electricity cut off.

The next thing that will happen is that people will demand that electricity cannot be cut off in summer, cuz it gets hot and people need AC.

THey did not shut off his electric. THey installed a "limiter". THis is a device that is basically a circuit breeaker so you have enough power for a furnace fan and a few lights. (IIRC, it is 20 amps at 220v). This is to get around the law for those who fail to pay their bill but still cannot be shut off in the winter. Many people play that game, and get free power over the winter. THe limiter makes it inconveneint for those who don't pay, but still gives them power for a furnace.

THe fact that he was old may have led to him not understanding what to do when he exceeded the limit and popped the breaker. It's a simple push button reset.

Sadly, he had no one to help him.

but to claim murder is not thinking clearly.

Had he starved to death, would you claim that the loca grocery had murdered him?

 

[mbo]

This guy could have just as likely died from forgetting to take a medication, or any of a number of other things that he could not remember.


Why is it that there is always SOMEONE ELSE to blame for anything that goes wrong in life?


The very same city in which he died raised its electric rates 3% yesterday, but remember that the portion of every rate increase goes to the layers and layers of protections being put onto billing and shut-off processes. Those very same increases can drive people from their homes.

 

[Grim]

It is terrible that the gentleman died that way. At 93 he was probably too old to take care of himself. I think that is apparent by the fact he had the money but was unable to get the bill paid, and maybe didn’t have the ability to reach out for help. But to say the city or utility company is somehow responsible for his wellbeing is not fair. I will consider myself lucky if I can die in my own home (my dignity intact) at 93 years old.

If a social agency would have forced an older man into a nursing home and sold the house many people would be speaking out and saying the government doesn’t have the right to do that. We would be defending the rights of the elderly to grow old and die in their own homes. I think that is what happened. The guy was too old to take care of himself, and no family or loved one stepped in.

R.I.P. Mr. Schur, may you bask in the warmth of heaven.

 

[The Freeholder]

I have to wonder where these neighbors were all this time. If they guy had the money paper clipped to the bill to pay for it, could none of them bother to take it for him? Or did none of them come forward until it was too late?

Some neighbors. For all intents and purposes, he could have lived in the middle of the woods for all the good they ever did.

 

[Red Baron]

It's just some old "feeder", who cares ... (sarcasm)

I'm sure this guy had a lot of issues but it is apparent he died because he could not afford to heat his home.

Not one relative, social services or somebody next door could have helped?

 

[dissimulo]

You know, he may not have been abandoned. I am almost a total loner. If not for my GF and the fact that I am expected at work/school, I would have no social contact. I know my neighbors, but we don't associate very often. If I were an old guy with no place to go, I could easily end this way and it would be nobody's fault but my own.

 

[mbo]

It's just some old "feeder", who cares ... (sarcasm)

I'm sure this guy had a lot of issues but it is apparent he died because he could not afford to heat his home.

Not one relative, social services or somebody next door could have helped?

Uhhhhh, according to the reports, he had $6,000 on his kitchen table.

I don't think being able to afford to heat the home was the problem.

 

[Dennis Olson]

Last winter, my largest utility bill (combined natgas/elec) was over $400. For ONE MONTH. And that was with the programmable thermostat set to 64° for a low and 68° for a high. This past summer, I went on the "even pay" system, where you pay a fixed amount each month and then "settle up" once a year. Also, I set the thermostat to 62° and 67° respectively. It won't be long before I'll have to set it at 64:deg: and 58° or something similar.

As to the event in the OP, as I've said before, expect this to happen in ever-increasing numbers as the economy tanks and the various governments run out of "subsidy" money. While I know that the utility companies are in business to make money, they can't be allowed to kill those that can't pay. The utility in this case might just as well have sent Guido to the poor man's house to shoot him in the head.

And once massive numbers of people are dying, expect the torches and pitchforks (and guns) to come out. I swear, if one of my parents/grandparents were to die (they're all long dead, so this is just hypothetical) from a utility company killing them, I'd lock & load and pay a visit to the main office of that utility company. And I guarantee that I'd make Virginia Tech look like a small-scale incident by comparison....

 

[Copter Doctor]

What are we gonna do when Obama 'crushes' the coal industry? No new nuclear plants because environmentalists don't like them. No new refineries, same reason. No new drilling because Democrats don't like oil companies. What will the environmentalist think when I start burning WOOD!
Hell of a way to go. But what do we expect when HUMAN LIFE is 'abortable'?

 

[mbo]

Electric rates are completely regulated in Michigan.



So I guess Jennifer Granholm should "hang."





Of course, she is demanding new "green" energy sources as a requirement for all future electric needs, which will jack up electric rates even faster.

 

[Dobbin]

What are we gonna do when Obama 'crushes' the coal industry? No new nuclear plants because environmentalists don't like them. No new refineries, same reason. No new drilling because Democrats don't like oil companies. What will the environmentalist think when I start burning WOOD!

Actually, there are a lot of reasons environmentally to burn wood. Not the least of which is the 'carbon neutral' aspect. Also improves a woodlot generally and improves the diversity of nature contained within.

Coppusing was a technique used in baronial England to improve the wood output of a tract of land for heat purposes which also had as it's side effect increased native animal populations. Much appreciated by the barons who thought this activity of the "lesser classes" on the king's wood benefited both classes. We may be coming back to this: both class structure and staying warm.

I think it was Scott Nearing (that old socialist and environmentalist) who finally decided to quit eating and die when he could no longer gather and split wood to stay warm. He died at age 100 or beyond. His wife maintained this was his desires but I've read otherwise that he was pretty "squashy" by the time he passed 100 anyway.

Joe

 

[Cmdr Don]

>>>but to claim murder is not thinking clearly

Wyoming law isn't much different than any other state law. While it may be impossible to determine that it was done with premeditation and malice, at a minimum we're looking at manslaughter.

A person is guilty of manslaughter if he unlawfully kills any human being without malice, expressed or implied, either:
(i) Voluntarily, upon a sudden heat of passion; or
(ii) Involuntarily, but recklessly except under circumstances constituting a violation of W.S. 6-2-106(b) ((this is a reference to vehicular homicide - dw)).
(b) Manslaughter is a felony punishable by imprisonment in the penitentiary for not more than twenty (20) years.

At the very least;

"Criminal negligence" is defined as the following conduct: A person acts with
criminal negligence when, through a gross deviation from the standard of care
that a reasonable person would exercise, he fails to perceive a substantial
and unjustifiable risk that the harm he is accused of causing will occur, and the
harm results. The risk shall be of such nature and degree that the failure to
perceive it constitutes a gross deviation from the standard of care that a
reasonable person would observe in the situation;

>>>I swear, if one of my parents/grandparents were to die (they're all long dead, so this is just hypothetical) from a utility company killing them, I'd lock & load and pay a visit to the main office of that utility company. And I guarantee that I'd make Virginia Tech look like a small-scale incident by comparison....

I'm not sure who I'd visit first, the utility or the city, but eventually I'd make it to both!

 

[dissimulo]

Well, let's think this through.

For those of you who say the utility should bear some responsibility, what would it take for them to be responsible?

Well, they would need to know your age.
They would need to know the number of people living in your household.
They would need to know if you have any health conditions.

And probably a few more things.

They would have to keep all this information in a database and, if you ever paid late, check to see if you fit the potential corpsicle demographic.

Or, rather than collect this private information, they could just keep a corps of door-knockers employed checking the health of every welfare late-payer in the region.

Then, if you didn't pay, they would be equipped to send someone out to knock on your door. But, of course, since you didn't answer when they put up a disconnection notice (else we would not be at this step), you might not answer then.

The only solution? Call the cops out to check on you.

Next thing you know, they are tazering you and shooting your dog.

 

[summerthyme]

I can't blame the power company for this... how many customers do they have to deal with on a weekly basis?

That said, there ARE programs here where if you are elderly, ill or handicapped, you can register with the power company, and they will notify a third party if your power is going to be turned off... which presumably would get you some help before you die...

A couple other comments- many old people are quite insensitive to temperature... their personal "thermostats" don't work all that well, and some (in my personal experience) don't seem to notice/register that they're "too cold" or "too hot". I don't know what you do about that... if the guy has no family or any other close relationships, and *doesn't want them* (some don't)... I sure don't want to see some law that mandates that anyone after a certain age must go into a state supervised home for the aged or something...

We've lost so much community in this world.. in the old days in a small town, SOMEONE would have known that there was a very old man living alone, and might have paid enough attention to him to have prevented this tragedy. Or, maybe not- if he had all that cash sitting around, he may have also been very paranoid and suspicious of anyone trying to help- I've run into a few older folks like that.

And while I think the original article was trying for the maximum sensationalism, the truth is, freezing to death (if that's actually what killed the old fellow) is one of the "easier" deaths.

Those who think "the government" should "do something" better think about that... you likely won't like the ideas they'll come up with.

Summerthyme

 

[mbo]

I don't see why any of us pay for electricity, or any utilities for that matter.

I mean there's really no way that a utility can guarantee anything if they ever cut off electricity, in any season (never know when there will be a cold snap or a heat wave). Even if they visit my house to ask nicely if they can cut off my electricity, I might not be home to say "okay, I'll pay, thanks for that great reminder." Or what if I don't like the invasion of privacy and decide not to open the door, and besides I'm not really interested in listening to bad news, especially if by dodging I can be assured they can't cut me off? You never know when one of those checks-and-balances fails either. Gee, we could never get all those rules straight, so just forget about ever cutting off my electricity, or water, or gas.

And I cannot see the reason we pay our mortgages either. I mean it's getting to the point that a number of politicians are demanding that all foreclosures be stopped, so you'd have to be a fool to pay your mortgage, right? Especially given that your next-door neighbor may not be paying his, and living fat off the hog, you'd have to be a fool to lose out on all that free cash you could spend on lottery tickets. Those evil banksters snookered me into that zero-interest, zero-down, $100/month payment on my $400,000 bungalow. How was I to know there's something called a balloon payment? All I know is I got this great pad, nice cars, and lots of spending dough - they should have tutored me on all this.

And why pay your taxes, what are they going to do - take your house? Turn off your utilities?

Uh huh. And screw up all that political capital they took all the bother to grab by bending over backwards for everybody who does not want to pay their bills from "da" man? And lose all those votes? You crazy or something?

I should be able to walk into any supermarket and grab some food too. Looks to me like they got plenty, so somebody must be making more money than they need, and I might be hungry more so than the guy who manages the place. Why should I have to find a soup kitchen? I don't like their food.

Oh yeah, and free contraceptives too. Did I mention that? I may just threaten to have a messload of babies if I don't get that for free.

And woe be to anyone who may actually put a time limit on my ability to make excuses for not paying my bills - HANG EM HIGH!!!!


Thank goodness I voted for Obama, he'll get this fixed right.

 

[summerthyme]

mbo... I hear you. And I find it interesting to observe some of the really odd disconnects in a lot of posts lately (not just on TB, either). Folks who are apparently rabid freedom lovers and capitalists somehow don't feel that should be applied to people who grow seeds- ANY seeds- and absolutely don't think Monsanto deserves any protections at all.

And again, (again, not pointing out any in particular) people who say "leave me the hell ALONE; don't check what I'm growing, don't listen in on my phone or e-mail and stay the hell OUT of my house"... are screaming that "the government let this poor guy die" in the next breath...

I know my own particular disconnect has to do with wondering how we can get to a point in a society where NO ONE checks on a 93 year old man who lives alone...

But turning that job over to "the government" (or, insert your quasi-official social agency here)... we're not going to solve the problem.

Even as I admit that we could have easily read a headline "93 year old man found beaten to death in his home. Apparent motive was robbery- neighbors were quoted as saying "he didn't trust banks. No matter how many times we warned him it wasn't safe, he kept all his money at home and paid all his bills in cash". Somehow, I suspect that would have been found to be more palatable to many here.

I doubt there's an answer... certainly not an easy one. Humans are... human. The same brain which can scream "I've got the right to die alone in my own damned house if I want- so keep the busy bodies away!" can also worry "if Mom falls and can't get to a phone, would any of her neighbors notice?"

I don't personally expect to see any balance short of heaven. But while I'm comfortable in my brain saying "if it costs a few old/weak folks their lives, it's worth it if the rest of us can live free"... my heart isn't as good to go there.

And yes, that means that some real crooks and creeps manage to take advantage of those softer feelings... which is how we got to this point. Sigh...

summerthyme

 

[Michigan Majik]

I could write a twenty page rant on this instead I will just say what has become of humanity. We cut off the power to a 93 year old but we are going to send welfare checks in the form of rebates to people who don't even pay taxes.

This action by the monopoly power company should be criminal.

I know of people who have ran out of propane, and heat their homes with a couple space heaters, and the oven. The propane companies don't ask, or care how they're heating their homes once the propane runs out.
Why would the electric company be any different...?

Bay City is about 60 miles from me...
It's heartbreaking that a man who lived a long life, and probably worked hard
thru most of it, would freeze to death in the year 2009.

 

[mbo]

I just don't like where things get headed when people start demanding GUARANTEES for perfect safety.

Perfect guarantees mean you are a perfect slave, cuz you have to trade your freedom to get it.

 

[Loon]

The city manager is not speaking out on this subject according to the news on tv tonight. They are talking about doing away with the limitors and are removing them from other homes in arrears. It sounds like they will be telling people in person that their utility is going to be shut off.

It's too bad that the person who walked up to his door and put the notice on it couldn't have knocked or rung the bell to talk to him. He had the means to pay his bill. He had the cash. His death could have been avoided and maybe even put in touch with services to help old folks with dementia. Yes, they said he apparently was showing signs of dementia.

 

[Loon]

This story is still making the top of our local news. I learned today that this old man had over six hundred thousand dollars in the bank. In his house he had cash attached to a number of bills to pay them with but for some reason didn't pay them. He had dementia.

The city has removed the 60+ limiters on other homes. One person who called in made a good point. In order to move into a home the city must inspect it and you cannot get a certificate of occupancy without there being utilities..........running water, heat, lights etc. So, how can the same city who requires these things to move into a home be able to shut off life sustaining utilites? The city owns the power company in Bay City.

They have received communications from all over the US and the world on this story. The old man had a military funeral and a lot of folks showed up. Lots of concern and tears over this one.

 

[Michigan Majik]

From my local paper:
<snip>Schur, or “Mutts,” was a retired foundry worker who lived alone, his wife having died a couple of years ago. The couple had no children. He could often be seen through the big front window of his comfortably furnished home of 50 or 60 years, watching TV or keeping an eye on his neighborhood.
He was a medic in the South Pacific, and earned a Purple Heart.</snip>

Doesn't sound to me like he ever expected or demanded
"perfect safety.".....

 

[2Trish]

Hi,

If you don't pay your house taxes the county puts a lein on your property. In our city, if you don't pay your water bill, garbage pickup, or the city has to come in and cut your grass or clean up your property, they will put a lein on your property if you don't pay up.

My point is that since utilities are pretty much a monopoly why don't they just put a lein on the property.

2Trish

 

[mbo]

From my local paper:
<snip>Schur, or “Mutts,” was a retired foundry worker who lived alone, his wife having died a couple of years ago. The couple had no children. He could often be seen through the big front window of his comfortably furnished home of 50 or 60 years, watching TV or keeping an eye on his neighborhood.
He was a medic in the South Pacific, and earned a Purple Heart.</snip>

Doesn't sound to me like he ever expected or demanded
"perfect safety.".....

Given his background, I think he would agree with me. Given the alternative that NO ONE need pay their bills, ever.

 

[mbo]

Hi,

If you don't pay your house taxes the county puts a lein on your property. In our city, if you don't pay your water bill, garbage pickup, or the city has to come in and cut your grass or clean up your property, they will put a lein on your property if you don't pay up.

My point is that since utilities are pretty much a monopoly why don't they just put a lein on the property.

2Trish

Yep, the city does put a lien on the property.

And foreclosure processes are initiated if the lien is not paid.

 

[Grim]

In this case the person who owned the property also owed the bill, but I have never heard of a utility company, private or government putting a lien on the property. In fact I am aware of business defaulting on bills in the 50 or 60 thousand dollar range. If it were possible to collect from a lien I think that would have happened. The fact that it didn’t leads me to believe the utility companies can’t do that. Don’t know for sure just speculating.

 

[2Trish]

Grim,

I somewhat see your point if the electric company was an independant company. But if it is run by a government entity why would that be any different than your water bills, (which in our city - a lien can and will be put on the property)?

2Trish

 

[mbo]

First of all, a property cannot be sold with a lien on it as it has no good title.

Second, a government's lien on a property can be foreclosed on.

 

[NC Susan]

This is why a 90+ year old didnt pay the bill. World War 2 vet, and he had the cash on his table stapled to the bill. He wasnt stealing anything. besides late fees and interest penalties are attached to utility bills for just this reason!
I wouldnt go out in snow this deep and he probably couldnt


http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10554168&pnum=0



Man freezes after power company cuts off supply

2:00PM Thursday Jan 29, 2009

Locals stand in front of the Michigan house where 93 year old resident Marvin Schur froze to death. Photo / AP


A 93-year old man has frozen to death in his home in northern Michigan, prompting calls of scorn for the utility who cut off his power due to unpaid bills.

World War 2 veteran Marvin Schur died last week in his home where a "limiter" had been placed on his home by Bay City Electric Light & Power.
The city keeps the limiter on a residence for 10 days, at which point the city shuts off all electricity if the homeowner hasn't paid his utility bill.
Officials believe the limiter tripped off the flow of power and Schur didn't reset the device.
The temperature inside Schur's home dropped below 32 degrees (F), according to neighbours who found his body.
John Tennant, a local citizen's group spokesman, called for swift action from city leaders, according to a story in local newspaper the Bay City News.
"We need to take every step possible to make sure this does not happen anymore," he said. "This is a very, very sad thing."
Kathy O'Brien, 46, told the newspaper she was horrified to hear about the death of Schur.
Advertisement



"It could have been anybody's dad," said O'Brien.
Phil Newton, electric department director, said there are about 60 to 70 limiters in use across the city, about three times as many as a year ago.
He said he blames the bad economy, which has left residents struggling to pay their bills. He said the city issues about 50 shut-off notices each week.
"It's been terrible. We've seen it for over a year now," he said. "We actually have almost two full-time people just dedicated to going around and turning people on and off and putting on limiters. It's just really bad."
Newton said limiters have been used by the city for 18 years and this is the first time there's been a major problem.
"It's just unfortunate that this gentleman didn't reach out," said mayor Charles M. Brunner.
"We would have been there. We would have pointed him in the right direction or put him on some sort of payment plan."

 

[NC Susan]

Bay City does away with electric limiters

By Ed Brayton 1/29/09 8:13 AM


In the wake of the death of a 93-year-old World War II veteran who froze in his home, Bay City has ordered the removal of all electric limiters in that city. Bay City Electric Light & Power removed approximately 60-70 such devices, which shut off power to customers who have had trouble paying their electric bill once they reach a certain amount used.

Michigan Public Service Commission rules forbid state-regulated utility companies from cutting power to elderly and disabled customers between November 1 and April 1 each year, but municipal power companies like the Bay City Electric Light and Power are not subject to those rules under current law.
Attorney General Mike Cox is considering asking the state legislature to change the law and apply those rules to all power companies throughout the state. All of this takes place as the Bay City Commission voted this week to increase electric rates and as another man, this time in Grand Rapids, was found frozen to death. He is the eighth Michigan resident found frozen to death in the last couple weeks, four of them homeless and two of them elderly.




http://michiganmessenger.com/12360/bay-city-does-away-with-electric-limiters

 

[Hansa44]

C'mon people. When it's our time to go, we go. Sheesh... I suspect this 93 year old man, who obviously was very lonely, and possibly suffering dementia and maybe worse, is far happier now than he was a short time ago.

Or don't you believe in what you preach on this board? Like God and Heaven?

 

[Loon]

It is really sad how many write off old people and think they don't deserve to live or couldn't possibly have any quality of life. Many think those with dementia couldn't possible want to live like that. Those of you who say these things cannot speak for all those old people.

My mother is 93 and lives with us. She has dementia. In the last 4 years since I've taken over her care I've had to on more than one occasion educate others that she deserves to be treated the same as someone young and healthy. She has a quality of life. Just because she's outlived what most consider her usefulness doesn't mean we should give up on her. We treat her the same as anyone else. I actually had a dental tech ask me if I was sure I wanted to spend $1100 on a new partial for her......."at her age and all". How stupid. Of course she wants and needs teeth to be able to eat and live.

This poor gentleman who died a horrible death by hyperthermia deserved to live. He had more in the bank than most people reading this post I'm sure. It wasn't a lack of funds. He did not need any kind of payment plan. He just needed some help paying the bill. He had the cash.

The city flipped the switch on this man the same as if he were a death row criminal. He was murdered. Whether it was intential or not matters not. He's just as dead. It should not be allowed to happen. A face to face would have prevented his death. Even a death row criminal gets all kinds of reviews and is put through years of processes before they flip the switch on their life. Doesn't this WWII veteran deserve at least the same?

 

[dissimulo]

The city flipped the switch on this man the same as if he were a death row criminal. He was murdered. Whether it was intential or not matters not. He's just as dead. It should not be allowed to happen. A face to face would have prevented his death. Even a death row criminal gets all kinds of reviews and is put through years of processes before they flip the switch on their life. Doesn't this WWII veteran deserve at least the same?

That is not a valid spin on the analogy. A death row inmate goes to the death chamber for committing an act for which the consequences are known.

This man also committed an act for which the consequences are known.

In both cases, the responsibility was held by the individual.

The fact that it is sad does not mean he was murdered. He was an adult. He tragically had no one to care for him. But, it is not the job of the power company to care for him.

 

[Kronos]

That is not a valid spin on the analogy.

A death row inmate goes to the death chamber for committing an act
for which the consequences are known.

This man also committed an act
for which the consequences are known.

In both cases, the responsibility was held by the individual.

The fact that it is sad does not mean he was murdered. He was an adult.
He tragically had no one to care for him.

But, it is not the job of the power company to care for him.

Poor old fart.

He "COMMITTED" some act, (dissimulo could expound further)
for which the consequences were DEATH BY FREEZING.

Ought have phoned in a threat against Choco-Boy.

Never would have needed to pay for thing one further.

What a maroon, yanoo?

/sarcasm

Lessee:

Death by freezing for FAILING TO PAY UTILITY BILL,

as vs

Indefinite stint on Death Row for, say, Murdering the Meter Reader

Hmmm...

Old guy made wrong choice, wouldn't any reasonable reader agree?

 

[Loon]

I disagree.

The procedure through which the power company uses to notify customers for non payment failed. It cost a life. It was wrong and they know it. They are in the process of changing their procedures for notification. They know they are liable.

It is not the power company's job to care for their customers. It is their job to use humane procedures before cutting off life sustaining utilities that can and does result in death.

 

[dissimulo]

Poor old fart.

He "COMMITTED" some act, (dissimulo could expound further)
for which the consequences were DEATH BY FREEZING.

He committed the act of failing to pay his bill.

The consequence is he lost his power. Everybody knows that is what happens when you do not pay your bill.

Nobody is at fault. The old guy sounds like he wasn't able to keep it together anymore - not his fault - that's just life. The power company provides a service to people who pay for it. They can't possibly know the reasons why people don't pay - they send letters, they post notices, they installs cut-offs and when they get no response, they stop providing the service. It is reasonable, even when the result is tragic.

 

[rummer]

$1000 power bill is not one or two months worth of usage, but well over a years use in my household. Looks like he paid for his power usage after all.

I live here in Michigan, same state this man was from and my winter heat bills run around 500.00 per month. So that very well may be a two month bill.