ECON What is needed to "FIX" America's economic woes.

ainitfunny

Saved, to glorify God.
I have spent quite a while listening to so called experts and totally ignorant people (who also have their opinions) argue about the economic problems America (and the world) is having and whether it was right or wrong to "bailout" the bankers and insurance companies and whether it would be right or wrong to bailout the homeowners and companies such as GM, Ford, Chrysler and other manufacturers, farmers, and American industries and businesses PRIMARILY driven into near bankruptcy by the credit freeze.

Listening to the "talking heads" discuss the problem on CNBC (the business coverage TV station) I suddenly realized when one man said "We already have the bankers and insurance companies in the lifeboat, there is only so much bailout money, we CANNOT take GM and the other American automakers and businesses in without swamping the boat!" They frame a "zero sum game, pick your side". THEY HAVE COMPLETELY MISUNDERSTOOD THE PROBLEM and "framed the discussion" about "bailouts" in a way that leads to no understanding, no solutions which work, and pits us against each other in countless adversarial groups and interests.

IN ORDER TO FIND WORKABLE ANSWERS TO SAVE THE NATION WE HAVE TO "RE-FRAME" THE DISCUSSIONS AND THROW OUT EVERYONE'S INPUT WHO CANNOT ADOPT A NEW FRAMEWORK OF ASSUMPTIONS ABOUT HOW THIS ECONOMY WORKS.

First of all, it is NOT a matter of "taking GM, FORD and CHRYSLER", homeowners and other struggling manufacturing and other industries into the banker's or government's rescue "lifeboat". YOU WALL STREET AND FINANCIAL EXPERTS DO ERR IN THAT "We whom you imagine might "swamp" your lifeboat ARE YOUR LIFEBOAT. We ARE the LIFEBOAT THAT WILL SAVE THE SYSTEM. We are telling you that you must USE US TO MAKE THE LIFEBOAT BIGGER, INCLUDE US OR YOUR EFFORTS WILL BE IN VAIN.

If you want to leverage, build and sustain a great world economy, NOT ON YOUR SWEAT AND COLLATERAL but, upon the foundations which we, by our efforts, provided as a FOUNDATION for your inflated, leveraged, prosperity (whose benefits every year you more tightly circumscribed from sharing) then, if you don't want to kill the geese that have been laying your golden eggs you MUST SHORE UP THE FOUNDATIONS UPON WHICH YOUR LEVERAGED "SUPERECONOMY" IS BUILT. Giving bankers ANY money was the height of stupidity and completely misunderstanding HOW LEVERAGE CAN WORK IN REVERSE TO GET US OUT OF THIS.

PAY ATTENTION HERE; If a $300,000 home is collateral for 40 times that amount in our economy through leveraging and derivative financial instruments, thus each $300,000 was controlling(collateralizing) $12 MILLION dollars of the economy! I ask you then, which makes more sense and is CHEAPER.... should we throw $12 million at the bankers who "lost" $12 leveraged millions off the 'default' and lost leveraging.....OR SHOULD WE TAKE THE SAME $12 million and bail out 40 or more $300,000 homeowners THEREBY WITH ONLY 12 MILLION RESTORING at least $480 MILLION LEVERAGED DOLLARS TO THE ECONOMY? Or, with a MERE $45 BILLION assist to homeowners (instead of $800 billion bailout) you could have injected $1.8 TRILLION back into our economy!!

The manufacturers, the American businesses, the industries and agriculture are the humble real world foundation upon which, although they represent a fraction of this "leveraged" economy are built , (YES WE KNOW, EVEN GREATER THINGS AND ECONOMIES ARE BUILT THROUGH "LEVERAGING".) But, the foundations cannot either be untended, disregarded or dispensed with. THEY ARE THE FOUNDATION. FIX THE FOUNDATION AND YOUR SUPERSTRUCTURE WILL HOLD. Ignore and cheat in the share of support for your foundation and you WILL see your dreams cast down. You will be building on sand.

And, yes I am aware of the financial con game that FRN's represent, I am just giving a solution as to how to GET BACK to the point where that financial system was still providing some kind of national and world economic stability. The Fed and "Real Money" is an argument for another, less imminently disasterous time.
 
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Dozdoats

On TB every waking moment
ain't,

Sorry. Not gonna happen.

There IS no fixing this economy. Period. It's gonna crash and burn. IMHO it's better to accept that fact and try to mitigate the coming disaster on a personal and family level than rail against the inevitable.

JMHO, YMMV, preppin' and prayin' as I go,

dd
 

Ender

Inactive
What is needed to "FIX" America's economic woes.

Let the economy deflate.
Bye-bye to the FED.
Practice REAL Free Market Capitalism instead of Mercantilism.
Bring the troops home.
Make Ron Paul Secretary of the Treasury.
 
Paulson keeps making the situation worse.

When 50% of the voting population doesn't pay any income tax, and 'believes' the guberment can 'fix' anything we have reached a tipping point. Thanks to our vote buying, power hungry, guberment and liberal guberment education system we have reached a point where the voice of reason is stiffled as 'hate' speech. Either the end of the world is rapidly approaching or I hope Nobama will screw up so bad some of the 50% will realize guberment cannot provide us with everything. Someone has to PAY for it.
 

Ender

Inactive
When 50% of the voting population doesn't pay any income tax, and 'believes' the guberment can 'fix' anything we have reached a tipping point. Thanks to our vote buying, power hungry, guberment and liberal guberment education system we have reached a point where the voice of reason is stiffled as 'hate' speech. Either the end of the world is rapidly approaching or I hope Nobama will screw up so bad some of the 50% will realize guberment cannot provide us with everything. Someone has to PAY for it.

Time to get out of The Matrix.

As long as everyone thinks on these lines, we will be forever buried. Income tax is unconstitutional, as is a Federal Department of Education.
 

mbo

Membership Revoked
I have spent quite a while listening to so called experts and totally ignorant people (who also have their opinions) argue about the economic problems America (and the world) is having and whether it was right or wrong to "bailout" the bankers and insurance companies and whether it would be right or wrong to bailout the homeowners and companies such as GM, Ford, Chrysler and other manufacturers, farmers, and American industries and businesses PRIMARILY driven into near bankruptcy by the credit freeze.

Listening to the "talking heads" discuss the problem on CNBC (the business coverage TV station) I suddenly realized when one man said "We already have the bankers and insurance companies in the lifeboat, there is only so much bailout money, we CANNOT take GM and the other American automakers and businesses in without swamping the boat!" They frame a "zero sum game, pick your side". THEY HAVE COMPLETELY MISUNDERSTOOD THE PROBLEM and "framed the discussion" about "bailouts" in a way that leads to no understanding, no solutions which work, and pits us against each other in countless adversarial groups and interests.

IN ORDER TO FIND WORKABLE ANSWERS TO SAVE THE NATION WE HAVE TO "RE-FRAME" THE DISCUSSIONS AND THROW OUT EVERYONE'S INPUT WHO CANNOT ADOPT A NEW FRAMEWORK OF ASSUMPTIONS ABOUT HOW THIS ECONOMY WORKS.

First of all, it is NOT a matter of "taking GM, FORD and CHRYSLER", homeowners and other struggling manufacturing and other industries into the banker's or government's rescue "lifeboat". YOU WALL STREET AND FINANCIAL EXPERTS DO ERR IN THAT "We whom you imagine might "swamp" your lifeboat ARE YOUR LIFEBOAT. We ARE the LIFEBOAT THAT WILL SAVE THE SYSTEM. We are telling you that you must USE US TO MAKE THE LIFEBOAT BIGGER, INCLUDE US OR YOUR EFFORTS WILL BE IN VAIN.

If you want to leverage, build and sustain a great world economy, NOT ON YOUR SWEAT AND COLLATERAL but, upon the foundations which we, by our efforts, provided as a FOUNDATION for your inflated, leveraged, prosperity (whose benefits every year you more tightly circumscribed from sharing) then, if you don't want to kill the geese that have been laying your golden eggs you MUST SHORE UP THE FOUNDATIONS UPON WHICH YOUR LEVERAGED "SUPERECONOMY" IS BUILT. Giving bankers ANY money was the height of stupidity and completely misunderstanding HOW LEVERAGE CAN WORK IN REVERSE TO GET US OUT OF THIS.

PAY ATTENTION HERE; If a $300,000 home is collateral for 40 times that amount in our economy through leveraging and derivative financial instruments, thus each $300,000 was controlling(collateralizing) $12 MILLION dollars of the economy! I ask you then, which makes more sense and is CHEAPER.... should we throw $12 million at the bankers who "lost" $12 leveraged millions off the 'default' and lost leveraging.....OR SHOULD WE TAKE THE SAME $12 million and bail out 40 or more $300,000 homeowners THEREBY WITH ONLY 12 MILLION RESTORING at least $480 MILLION LEVERAGED DOLLARS TO THE ECONOMY? Or, with a MERE $45 BILLION assist to homeowners (instead of $800 billion bailout) you could have injected $1.8 TRILLION back into our economy!!

The manufacturers, the American businesses, the industries and agriculture are the humble real world foundation upon which, although they represent a fraction of this "leveraged" economy are built , (YES WE KNOW, EVEN GREATER THINGS AND ECONOMIES ARE BUILT THROUGH "LEVERAGING".) But, the foundations cannot either be untended, disregarded or dispensed with. THEY ARE THE FOUNDATION. FIX THE FOUNDATION AND YOUR SUPERSTRUCTURE WILL HOLD. Ignore and cheat in the share of support for your foundation and you WILL see your dreams cast down. You will be building on sand.

And, yes I am aware of the financial con game that FRN's represent, I am just giving a solution as to how to GET BACK to the point where that financial system was still providing some kind of national and world economic stability. The Fed and "Real Money" is an argument for another, less imminently disasterous time.

so who exactly gets their house payments for free or highly subsidized?

:screw:
 

Rex Jackson

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Money won't do it.
Our money is worthless.
We owe trillions to others.
The masses are stuck in a 'I owe too much and can't afford to make less' black hole.
Bailouts only scratch the surface.

We need to rebuild investor, global and blue collar confidence.

The only way we could do that is to find then hang the people responsible then start with a clean slate. It would send the signal that someone really does care and this may be prevented from happening again. Unfortunately this must be done in a timely fashion, like immediately. Really, the only one single person that is capable is Obama. It would take a large coordinated movement otherwise.

Too bad time isn't something we have so I don't see it happening.

Maybe if someone only made an 'attempt' to get to the bottom of 'things'...just maybe stocks would climb a thousand or two points.
 

ainitfunny

Saved, to glorify God.
OK, I'm listening to the hearings and I think I finally get it, WHY the measures are not doing a damned thing to help.

Mr. Paulson's "plan" backed by Mr. Bernanke, which STARTED WITH CONGRESSIONAL IMMUNITY for HIMSELF appears to, in reality be indistinguishable from A HOSTILE FINANCIAL TAKEOVER and SUBSEQUENT PLUNDERING of a CORPORATION. Only in Mr. Paulson's "plan" his immunity has given him and his cronies all the money and power they need to what appears to me to work a FINANCIALLY HOSTILE TAKE OVER (DOWN) OF THE UNITED STATES AND UTILIZE THE OPPORTUNITY TO PLUNDER THE WEALTH OF THE PEOPLE AND THE TREASURY IN THE PROCESS!! I imagine the "justification" they are using among themselves at their highest financial insider levels is that they want to/are going to institute a new financial system/money anyway why not clean up and pocket all the easily dislodged wealth before they "rebuild" their new financial system?

Financial "survival" WON'T HAPPEN, because that is NOT their goal. That was the goal we THOUGHT they were pursuing when we gave them the money. America itself will not and cannot survive this financial sabotage. There is NO "CONTINUITY OF GOVERNMENT PLAN" to thwart the FALL OF THIS GOVERNMENT AND NATION UNDER THESE APPROACHING CONDITIONS. THIS IS TREACHERY, FOR WHICH NO "IMMUNITY" SHOULD PROTECT MR PAULSON.
 
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Time to get out of The Matrix.

As long as everyone thinks on these lines, we will be forever buried. Income tax is unconstitutional, as is a Federal Department of Education.

yeah, that's what I keep hearing....but find a judge that will rule against the IRS!!
 

Ender

Inactive
yeah, that's what I keep hearing....but find a judge that will rule against the IRS!!

Then its back to Plan A:

Let the economy deflate.
Bye-bye to the FED.
Practice REAL Free Market Capitalism instead of Mercantilism.
Bring the troops home.
Make Ron Paul Secretary of the Treasury.

One bite of the elephant at a time.
 

mbo

Membership Revoked
Paulson will be gone in a matter of weeks.


The Congress that signed off on legislation that gave him unfettered control over $700 billion in funds will remain however.


And for that reason, expect the same to be repeated numerous times.


:kk1:
 

ainitfunny

Saved, to glorify God.
Copter Doctor can you imagine refusing to treat an auto wreck victim because he is fat, stupid or an alcoholic? You seem unable to both sense the immediacy of the peril nor the immensity of the scope of consequences you, Ender and Dozedoats so offhandedly invite.

You cannot "rehabilitate" a DEAD MAN.
Get your PRIORITIES IN ORDER. You cannot reform or correct problems in a government, society and nation that has COLLAPSED and which MAY be reborn at the hands of our most bitter ENEMIES. THEN you will have REAL complaints if you allow us to fall into anarchy and be brought back out into ISLAMIC or outright COMMUNIST takeover!! Your "IRS", FED, and Constitutional dissatisfaction will seem outright silly in retrospect should the NEXT rulers govern from secrecy, abolish elections, disarm us, control our worship, assign where we will be employed and where we will live, and issue us our allotted possessions. AS BAD AS OUR AMERICAN GOVERNMENT AND SYSTEM IS, ROOTING FOR IT'S FALL DOES NOT AT ALL ASSURE US OF ANYTHING BETTER BUT MUCH MORE LIKELY ASSURES US OF MUCH WORSE RULERS AND SYSTEM.
 

Ender

Inactive
Your "IRS", FED, and Constitutional dissatisfaction will seem outright silly in retrospect should the NEXT rulers govern from secrecy, abolish elections, disarm us, assign us our employment and issue us our alotted possessions. AS BAD AS OUR AMERICAN GOVERNMENT AND SYSTEM IS, ROOTING FOR IT'S FALL DOES NOT AT ALL ASSURE US OF ANYTHING BETTER BUT MUCH MORE LIKELY ASSURES US OF MUCH WORSE RULERS AND SYSTEM.

WTF kind of statement is that? And who in the HELL said they were rooting for its fall?

This is exactly the kind of thinking that has got us where we are today.

The question is: What is needed to "FIX" America's economic woes. and I answered that.

Your answer IS TO WRING OUR HANDS AND THANK GOD THAT IT IS NOT WORSE THAN IT IS?

Good thing the Founding Fathers didn't have that attitude.
 

ainitfunny

Saved, to glorify God.
WTF kind of statement is that? And who in the HELL said they were rooting for its fall?

This is exactly the kind of thinking that has got us where we are today.

The question is: What is needed to "FIX" America's economic woes. and I answered that.

Your answer IS TO WRING OUR HANDS AND THANK GOD THAT IT IS NOT WORSE THAN IT IS?

Good thing the Founding Fathers didn't have that attitude.

NO, my answer was NOT to "wring our hands and thank God that it is not worse than it is." as you put it. IF YOU CAN PATENTLY MIS-CHARACTERIZE MY ANSWER SO FLAGRANTLY YOU HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO STANDING TO PROTEST MY MORE ACCURATELY SUMMARIZING YOUR ANSWER BELOW AS BASICALLY "LETTING THE PRESENT SYSTEM FAIL".

posted by ENDER: Let the economy deflate.
Bye-bye to the FED.
Practice REAL Free Market Capitalism instead of Mercantilism.
Bring the troops home.
Make Ron Paul Secretary of the Treasury.
 

Ender

Inactive
NO, my answer was NOT to "wring our hands and thank God that it is not worse than it is." as you put it. IF YOU CAN PATENTLY MIS-CHARACTERIZE MY ANSWER SO FLAGRANTLY YOU HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO STANDING TO PROTEST MY MORE ACCURATELY SUMMARIZING YOUR ANSWER BELOW AS BASICALLY "LETTING THE PRESENT SYSTEM FAIL".

Either I am having a serious comprehension problem, or you have just flipped your previous answer.

:shr:
 

mbo

Membership Revoked
Time to get out of The Matrix.

As long as everyone thinks on these lines, we will be forever buried. Income tax is unconstitutional, as is a Federal Department of Education.


I've always gauged whether someone understands the Constitution, or is just blowing smoke out their ass, by their response when confronted with the demand to have the Department of Education dismantled.



:dot5:
 

ainitfunny

Saved, to glorify God.
What I see is the need to IMMEDIATELY stop this precipitous drop in economic "blood pressure" because OUR NATION HAS ONLY WEEKS BEFORE ECONOMIC COLLAPSE if we continue on the course Mr. Paulson & Co. has set for us. It would seem it appears He has enabled his cronies to collect our blood, insert more taps to drain rather than staunch the wounds killing us.

YES, We have to get rid of the Fed and the IRS
Yes, we need to get out of the United Nations
Yes we need to work FAIR TRADE not just FREE TRADE AGREEMENTS
Yes, We need to get rid of the Department of Education
Yes, we need to return to Constitutional money supply controlled by Congress. Real Money.
Yes we need to get our troops out of Iraq.
Yes we need to return to a nation of laws, not the Uniform Commercial Code and maritime law.

But this is NOT like the other economic downturns of the 70's and 80's and the 90's that torpedoed the dot com bubble BUT DID NOT COMPLETELY DISRUPT COMMERCE, NOR COLLAPSE CRITICAL FINANCIAL UNDERPINNINGS REQUIRED FOR THE CONTINUITY OF SUPPLY, SUPPORT AND SURVIVAL OF THIS ENTIRE NATION'S PEOPLE. That total anarchy situation is a VERY REAL POSSIBILITY with the depth and breadth of the economic Tsunami looming on the horizon. Radically, but peacefully (without destabilizing society ) restructuring this government to correct the above SERIOUS DEPARTURES from the nation we are supposed to be TAKES MORE TIME THAN WE HAVE LEFT BEFORE THIS FINANCIAL AND ECONOMIC TIME BOMB DESTROYS WHAT LITTLE ORDER AND STABILITY AMERICAN PEOPLE'S LIVES STILL HAVE.
 
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mbo

Membership Revoked
What I see is the need to IMMEDIATELY stop this precipitous drop in economic "blood pressure" because OUR NATION HAS ONLY WEEKS BEFORE ECONOMIC COLLAPSE if we continue on the course Mr. Paulson & Co. has set for us. It would seem it appears He has enabled his cronies to collect our blood, insert more taps to drain rather than staunch the wounds killing us.

YES, We have to get rid of the Fed and the IRS
Yes, we need to get out of the United Nations
Yes we need to work FAIR TRADE not just FREE TRADE AGREEMENTS
Yes, We need to get rid of the Department of Education
Yes, we need to return to Constitutional money supply controlled by Congress. Real Money.
Yes we need to get our troops out of Iraq.
Yes we need to return to a nation of laws, not the Uniform Commercial Code and maritime law.

But this is NOT like the other economic downturns of the 70's and 80's and the 90's that torpedoed the dot com bubble BUT DID NOT COMPLETELY DISRUPT COMMERCE, NOR COLLAPSE CRITICAL FINANCIAL UNDERPINNINGS REQUIRED FOR THE CONTINUITY OF SUPPLY, SUPPORT AND SURVIVAL OF THIS ENTIRE NATION'S PEOPLE. That total anarchy situation is a VERY REAL POSSIBILITY with the depth and breadth of the economic Tsunami looming on the horizon. Radically, but peacefully (without destabilizing society ) restructuring this government to correct the above SERIOUS DEPARTURES from the nation we are supposed to be TAKES MORE TIME THAN WE HAVE LEFT BEFORE THIS FINANCIAL AND ECONOMIC TIME BOMB DESTROYS WHAT LITTLE ORDER AND STABILITY AMERICAN PEOPLE'S LIVES STILL HAVE.

How do you propose to restructure the government, and why would Obama-boy be interested in that???

Besides the fact that he has his own radical plans in the works, and I kinda think they don't involve reducing his or the government's power.


:dot5:
 

ainitfunny

Saved, to glorify God.
How do you propose to restructure the government, and why would Obama-boy be interested in that???

Besides the fact that he has his own radical plans in the works, and I kinda think they don't involve reducing his or the government's power.


:dot5:

Grrr. Is my writing THAT obtuse for you or are you deliberately trying to obfuscate and mislead? I never proposed "restructuring the government", I merely acknowledged the serious problems which other posters thought needed to be addressed and pointed out that right now our PRIORITY should be more immediate, radical intervention BY THE GOVERNMENT must be initiated immediately in order to at least preserve some remnant of financial, economic, social and governmental stability from which to launch the more long term reforms that will return us to our economic and constitutional foundations.
 
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