Now, the only reason this "glitch" was caught was because the numbers were outrageously out of line. More "subtle" discrepancies will probably go unnoticed. And I don't believe for a second that stuff like this can happen accidentally. I'm a computer programmer, and this is simple ADDing, for goodness. They probably have a "shaving" algorithm built into the software and in this case it "malfunctioned" to the point that the discrepancies were outrageous. In NUMEROUS districts in Cuyahog County, the vote totals well exceeded the total number of registered voters, by more than what can be explained by provisional ballots. There's clearly a pattern here.Bearded Weirdo said:Rescath, I can admit there MIGHT be a problem. I can see also see that both sides could be the problem, one side could be the problem, or no sides could be the problem. I can also see that the Left's hatred of G.W. Bush will cause them to use any excuse possible to try to create doubt in peoples' minds about the legitamcy of his presidency. So far in Ohio we have one confirmed glitch (not on a DIEBOLD machine btw), and some strange numbers from a district that uses optical scan and not these computerized voting machines. So far this isn't the story that Randi Rhodes on Air America is trying to turn it into, but it will cast doubt on President Bush's legitamcy to the gullible and hateful.
That's not really true. Bev Harris has been on this crusade for a number of years now. She runs the www.blackboxvoting.org website and has written a book documenting the fraud. I highly recommend it.Ought Six said:I am all in favor of voting machines that leave a clear paper trail, but all the claims of intentional fraud are coming from extremely biased sources who are starting with their preconcieved notions, selectively cherrypicking facts that support those notions, ingoring exculpatory facts, and spinning the resulting BS to be 'clear proof' of fraud.
No Dave, it is not fair enough. You are a smart guy, and I think you know what is really going on here. The smart people behind this know they can't prove fraud, but they can stir up their gullible followers by making them think that Bush stole the election. They can't have their sheep thinking that old dumb shrub could actually win an election without stealing it.bigwavedave said:fine. let's throw out the assumptions about the intentions of either party and find out what happened. fair enough?
That's stupid. You might actually be able to prove the fraud. You execute a search warrant at Diebold and ES&S -- impound all their source code, internal memos, etc. But the Republicans behind the vote fraud will never allow that to happen.Bearded Weirdo said:No Dave, it is not fair enough. You are a smart guy, and I think you know what is really going on here. The smart people behind this know they can't prove fraud, but they can stir up their gullible followers by making them think that Bush stole the election. They can't have their sheep thinking that old dumb shrub could actually win an election without stealing it.
Thankyou. You have proved one of my points. This is what it is all about isn't it, casting doubt on President Bush's legitamcy. Let me ask you two questions:ainitfunny said:ANY "ELECTION" THAT INCORPORATES AN UNVERIFIABLE BALLOT COUNT IS ON IT'S FACE FRAUDULENT. So let's quit talking about the "ELECTION" of George Bush, and henceforth refer to the SELECTION of Mr. Bush for president.
Rescath, as O6 pointed out, there are already serious investigations into this.rescath said:That's stupid. You might actually be able to prove the fraud. You execute a search warrant at Diebold and ES&S -- impound all their source code, internal memos, etc. But the Republicans behind the vote fraud will never allow that to happen.
Another approach is to impound the voting machines themselves and to examine the internal logs (that's what Black Box Voting will do). They've proven cases of fraud in the past this way.
And the final way will be to examine all the discrepancies in all the counties. Find all the cases in which there was a problem like that in Franklin county. If a vast majority of these glitches favor the Republicans, then you have evidence of fraud. And you don't even have to prove vote fraud. You need to examine and audit, the best you can, every single county, and throw out those votes which are questionable and have glitches -- and prove recounts where possible. That would overturn the election even if you can't prove fraud.
Finally, no, Shrub didn't steal the election. He's way too stupid to pull it off. It's people like Rove and Cheney who engineered this (of course with the help of Diebold and ES&S).
Hmmm, it would be pretty easy a day or two after the election to complain that even though you tried to vote for Kerry, the machine said Bush. It wouldn't have to be true, and it would be fairly hard to disprove, I imagine.Reports from voters in Florida and Ohio also indicated that some of them had problems voting for the candidate of their choice. When they tried to vote for John Kerry, they said, the machine either wouldn't register the vote at all or would indicate on the review page that the vote was cast for Bush instead.
do you mean electronic voting? i doubt they threw away the computers though they may have made some modifications to the data.susie0884 said:Hmmm, it would be pretty easy a day or two after the election to complain that even though you tried to vote for Kerry, the machine said Bush. It wouldn't have to be true, and it would be fairly hard to disprove, I imagine.
BlackBox Voting is just trying to get a hold of the evidence -- bring it out into the public domain. I fully support that. Once the info comes out, then it will force the actual "serious investigation" to happen. BlackBox has no jurisdiction anyway -- that goes without saying. Yet, without their efforts, however, this info will most likely never come out.Bearded Weirdo said:Black Box Voting is not a group to be doing this. Randi Rhodes (of Air America) was trying to raise $5,000,000 for Bev Harris of Black Box Voting. Do you see the conflict of interest here?
I have no problem with <b>serious, non-partisan</b> investigations, I do have a problem with people who are sore about losing the election make an embarrasment of our election process.
Also you don't help your case by calling President Bush Shrub or calling him stupid. It does make you look biased.
This is NOT about Bush or Kerry. As I've said, I can't stand Kerry even more than I can't stand Bush. I have this lump in my stomach because I'm in effect promoting a cause which would bring Kerry into office.Keesha said:The fact is that someone has to win and someone has to lose. Get over it if your man didn't win. We were upset when Clinton got in but we lived with it. We were upset when Gore just couldn't believe he didn't win. Life goes on! Everyone can't be happy at once! Period! I will say that Kerry is more credible to me since he conceeded with no fight. That says a lot more about him as a man than how Gore acted! Nothing is perfect, it isn't going to be changed. You can live with Bush for 4 more years. Then probably Billary will get in and you will be happy again and I will not be happy. Life goes on....
Many of these complaints were lodged DURING the actual voting. They're on record.susie0884 said:Hmmm, it would be pretty easy a day or two after the election to complain that even though you tried to vote for Kerry, the machine said Bush. It wouldn't have to be true, and it would be fairly hard to disprove, I imagine.
These are not bizarre fantasies. They're NOT pulling this stuff out of thin air. There's prima facie evidence of fraud -- pure and simple.Ought Six said:CommonDreams.org, MoveOn.org, and other ultraleftist partisan sites are screaming conspiracy because they do not have the honesty or integrity to face the fact that THEY LOST. They must spin these bizzare fantasies to enable their own state of denial. How sad.
The truth is that America rejected the leftists and their philosophy. I do not expect them to ever comprehend that, but it remains true none the less.
Doesn't matter. The statements in your previous post attacking the liberal left clearly indicate that you have an axe to grind and that you're not being objective.Ought Six said:r:I am a libertarian, and voted for Badnarik, not Bush. Sorry I do not measure up to your Repub stereotype.
LOL! You hypocrite! I am looking forward to the day when you stop your relentless leftist propadgandizing and show one tiny molecule of objectivity here."Doesn't matter. The statements in your previous post attacking the liberal left clearly indicate that you have an axe to grind and that you're not being objective."