OP-ED The Ethics of Killing Baby Hitler - Response to NY Times Magazine poll

Housecarl

On TB every waking moment
For links see article source.....
Posted for fair use.....
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/10/killing-baby-hitler-ethics/412273/

The Ethics of Killing Baby Hitler

A moral dilemma is better understood as a historical one.

Matt Ford | Oct 24, 2015
Comments 431

The New York Times Magazine conducted a poll that asked whether its readers could kill an infant Adolf Hitler. On Friday afternoon, the publication tweeted its results to the world.

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http://twitter.com/NYTmag/status/657618681204244480/photo/1
(ETA: Results 42% Yes, 30% No, 28% Not Sure)
My personal answer is no.

The basic moral question—could you kill one infant to save millions of lives?—is essentially a more dramatic version of the trolley problem, a thought experiment whereby a person must choose between a speeding trolley killing five people or diverting its course to kill one. That ethical dilemma has its weaknesses and limitations, as my colleague Lauren Cassini Davis explored earlier this month. But even in this extreme iteration, I can’t bring myself to support ending a human life, especially at my own hands.

Moreover, many practical alternatives exist short of infanticide to theoretically prevent Hitler’s rise to power. You could, for example, kidnap the infant would-be totalitarian and turn him over to an orphanage in Australia, thereby preventing him from ever assuming power in Germany. Or you could prevent his parents from meeting to ensure he was never born in the first place. (A question for the philosophers: Does altering history to prevent someone’s birth count as murder?)


But the main reason I would not kill, exile, or otherwise remove Hitler is historical. I admit that all of what follows is non-falsifiable, but I strongly doubt that Hitler’s nonexistence would have prevented World War II or the Holocaust.

Hitler is a singular figure in human history, and the course of the 20th century arguably pivots around his actions as chancellor of Germany between 1933 and 1945. But his dark, looming presence can distract from the broader trends in German society at the time. Hitler did not invent fascism, militarism, or anti-Semitism, although he proved to be remarkably adept at harnessing them for political power. He also was not the first German political figure to adopt the irredentist position that another country’s territory rightfully belonged to the German people.

The strongest argument for removing Hitler from history is the Holocaust, since it can be directly tied to his existence. The exact mechanisms of the Holocaust—the Nuremburg laws, Kristallnacht, the death squads, the gas chambers, the forced marches, and more—are unquestionably the products of Hitler and his disciples, and they likely would not have existed without him. All other things being equal, a choice between Hitler and the Holocaust is an easy one.

But focusing on Hitler’s direct responsibility for the Holocaust blinds us to more disturbing truths about the early 20th century. His absence from history would not remove the underlying political ideologies or social movements that fueled his ascendancy. Before his rise to power, eugenic theories already held sway in Western countries. Anti-Semitism infected civic discourse and state policy, even in the United States. Concepts like ethnic hierarchies and racial supremacy influenced mainstream political thought in Germany and throughout the West. Focusing on Hitler’s central role in the Holocaust also risks ignoring the thousands of participants who helped carry it out, both within Germany and throughout occupied Europe, and on the social and political forces that preceded it. It’s not impossible that in a climate of economic depression and scientific racism, another German leader could also move towards a similar genocidal end, even if he deviated from Hitler’s exact worldview or methods.

Beyond the Holocaust, removing Hitler from history would be a gamble with the highest stakes imaginable. Any theoretical attempt to prevent World War II must also reckon with the possible course of history in its place. Without the war’s economic and military toll, would Britain and France have been better positioned to prevent decolonization, or to at least better able to resist nationalist movements in Africa and Asia with force? The Soviet Union emerged from four years of catastrophe as a superpower, even with 27 million dead and thousands of towns and villages destroyed. Would it be even stronger and more aggressive in 1945 if it were unscathed by war? Would Imperial Japan have retained its possessions and perhaps even have been more successful in its war with China which began before Hitler rose to power?

Meanwhile, the United States would likely have been in a far weaker position in 1945 without World War II. Wartime mobilization doubled America’s GDP, and when Germany and Japan surrendered, the U.S. possessed half the planet’s industrial capacity. The G.I. Bill, one of the largest investments in human capital in history, and the Interstate Highway System, the largest infrastructure investment in U.S. history, are a direct result of American participation in the war. The America we know today would be scarcely recognizable without them.

Perhaps most crucially, Hitler’s rise forced many of Europe’s top physicists, chemists, mathematicians, and other scientists to seek refuge in the United States. Among them were some of the most famous names in modern scientific history, including Albert Einstein, Niels Bohr, Enrico Fermi, Leo Szilard, and more. Fearing Hitler’s ambitions and armed with the knowledge that Germany had its own nuclear program underway, Einstein and Szilard persuaded Franklin D. Roosevelt in 1939 to launch what would become the Manhattan Project. Bohr, Fermi, Szilard, and dozens of other European scientists subsequently participated in it to develop the world’s first nuclear bombs.

What if that intellectual power had remained in Europe? What if Fermi had created the first artificial nuclear reactor in Mussolini's Italy instead of beneath the University of Chicago’s football stands? What if, during some moment of international tension, Einstein wrote to the leader of Germany and warned him about a nuclear-weapons program in the Soviet Union or the British Empire? What if atomic bombs had been first deployed not to end a war, but to begin one?

These questions should inspire two feelings. The first is humility. We can never know what a universe without Hitler would have looked like. But the implicit argument that his removal would improve history must also consider that his removal could make it worse. Indeed, recent experience should make us doubt our abilities to bend the course of human events towards our will. The Bush administration naively claimed that toppling Saddam Hussein in 2003 would produce a vibrant liberal democracy in the largely illiberal Middle East. Instead it brought about regional instability, ethnic cleansing, civil war, and ISIS.

The second is relief. We live in cynical times, which masks the fact that we live in extraordinary times. Atrocities still occur, but human rights are now a normative value throughout most of the world, even if their enforcement is imperfect. Conflicts are still fought, but the great powers have avoided another world war for seven decades. Racism and anti-Semitism still exist, but pre-war forms of colonialism and pogroms have largely disappeared. This is not the future for which Nazi Germany fought and fell. Removing Hitler from history would gamble with one irrefutable truth: He lost.

I could be wrong about all of this. If you have another perspective on the question or a different interpretation of history, I’d love to hear it. Email us at hello@theatlantic.com.
 
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Housecarl

On TB every waking moment
From a quick scan of the comments some that stood out to me.....

BradanFeasa • 16 hours ago

When you get into counterfactuals like this, it essentially becomes a game of "how far do I want to take this". That's why generally ignoring counterfactuals is smart, unless you're in the mood to write some historical fiction.

If the Nazi regime and WWII don't happen, do eugenics and many other 19th and early 20th centuries ideologies get discredited? Or do they continue? I think more than getting into all the specifics of Hitler himself, that's the narrowest you can look at it. I think it's hard to say one way or another, but it seems to be the events of WWII, particularly the Holocaust, very quickly discredited many of the intellectual movements that had dominated Europe for the century and a half before the war. People looked at the end result of fascism or of "racial superiority" and the majority of the world rejected it. The limits of acceptable behavior for states changed, even though plenty of human rights abuses remain there is a strong compulsive norm against even appearing to follow a similar pattern to pre-war Europe. I think it would be very difficult to claim that this norm, not to mention the focus on human rights following WWII, would have developed in an alternate timeline.

All that said, the question was shameful clickbait on the part of the NYT. If you want to present ethical/moral dilemmas you should do so without adding all the historical baggage. People shouldn't be thinking about counterfactuals (fun as they are) but the actual choice presented.

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brightlight • 16 hours ago

Killing Hitler as a child might prevent the horrors of WW2 but at the same time start 3 other wars that are even worse.

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James Oss > brightlight • 9 hours ago

"start 3 other wars" - why three and vs. whom?

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Shawn Kaiser > brightlight • 6 hours ago

Imagine a world where everyone had a mentality where we had advance knowledge of a singular murder, but no one stopped them because no one could be sure the murderer might be killing a person that may end up killing 2 people themselves. If you assume that the vast majority of humans are not genocidal maniacs, but you would allow a genocidal maniac live knowing they will kill one or more in the gamble that their victim(s) might actually be worse... You are what is wrong with the world. You would stand idle while a person kills one or more under the pretense that you are "saving" or potentially reducing overall possible death? If you truly believe that and you would let baby hitler live, you might as well go out and exterminate the human race as a whole, you never know everyone might be a hitter. The truth is we will never know, all we can do is fight evil. If you would let baby hitler live knowing what would happen, your worse than hitler. The majority of humans are not evil. If you want to make the world a better place, you squash evil, and if 3 new evils spawn as a result, you squash them too. It's ludicrous to allow one evil to exist for some random bullshit what if scenario mental/philosophical baby hitler might kill 10 people that could be worse than him complex. IF YOU BELIEVE THIS, YOU ARE WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS WORLD! If you truly subscribe to this simple formula, your inaction to remove baby hitler directly implicates yourself as the potential greater evil. Maybe you should just remove yourself from the equation. Let others bear the burden of fighting known evil, just hold your breath for 30 mins, the rest of us will deal with world war 3,4,5 if it does happen.

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Paix Mondiale > Shawn Kaiser • 3 hours ago

Killing baby Hitler would change the whole future! There might not be an Israeli-Palestine conflict now if he hadn't killed the Jewish people and driven them from their homes in Europe.

Christopher Steven Day • 16 hours ago

How do we decide whether an action is morally correct or not? Do we focus only on the action itself, consciously and unconsciously survey the intentions behind it in order to find the best way to characterize it, and then use this characterization to judge its moral worth? Or do we focus instead only on its consequences, feeling ourselves unable to weigh its moral goodness or badness until we've gotten a feel for just how much of each comes from it?

These two approaches to morality have served as a basic two-pole spectrum for the philosophy of ethics for a long time now. In the modern era, the view that equates moral worth with acts themselves itself is known as deontology and was championed by Immanuel Kant. The view that kicks the can down the road a little bit and looks instead at an action's effects is broadly known as consequentialism and was given a fresh coat of paint about two hundred years ago by some liberal reformers in England, most notably Jeremy Bentham and John Stuart Mill. They called their shellacking "utilitarianism," which you have likely heard expressed as the view that prioritizes the greatest good for the greatest number. Of course, even before these bywords in the time of Plato, philosophers were asking themselves whether things are inherently good and bad or whether we externally impose these labels. But what none of these dead, white dudes did was ask whether their reading audience would be more or less receptive to their views depending on the extent to which each reader also thought "The Notebook" was a good movie.

This is precisely what a Canadian-German-American team of researchers managed to do, and they revealed in a study published in April of this year (linked below) that if you identify as male, you are more likely to side with Bentham, that is, with the sort of person who imagines killing Miles Dyson, the man responsible for Skynet and the apocalyptic future of the Terminator movies, as a totally bro thing to do. But less likely if you identify as female, thanks to your deontological predilections.

I always knew there was something funny about Kant. He seemed to understand more than a single man should. Now I know why: It's because he, as the most androgynous thinker of the late Enlightenment, was more than a man. He was the David Bowie of philosophy.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/re...

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outonthetiles > Christopher Steven Day • 16 hours ago

The early David Bowie of course. No one ever poses the opposite, "would you kill someone who did great things". Everyone would say the answer is obviously no even though the intent is the same, to undo an outcome.

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dfasfgl > outonthetiles • 12 hours ago

The intent is the same. That is absurd. It is only the same if you are completely amoral. Killing a good person to prevent good things is the opposite of killing a bad person to prevent bad thing except there is one small sliver of commonality in that one is attempting to undo an outcome in either case.

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outonthetiles > dfasfgl • 12 hours ago

Shouldn't thought experiments be amoral for them to have any use.

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Thrasymachus > Christopher Steven Day • 12 hours ago

With respect, excluding Peter Singer, nobody in the field of philosophy actually takes utilitarianism all that seriously. It's well-known purely because it offers an easy test for ethics for high school debaters just being introduced to philosophy, but almost without exception in the field of ethics itself no one takes it seriously. And the reason is very simple: any attempt to debate killing baby Hitler can easily be turned into a debate about ending the Holocaust by raping toddler Hitler into a coma. And then you take a step back and realize that any ethical theory in which rape of a small child is not axiomatically rejected has already defeated itself.

The other primary reason is that unlike Kant, utilitarians are off in a weird little cul-de-sac of ethical theory that is entirely divorced from any attempt to base itself on any larger theory of epistemology or metaphysics. The real debate in ethics isn't between Kant and Bentham. That would be like debating whether Reggie White or Don Griffin was the more dominant football player. Rather, it's between Kant and Adam Smith, who is the foremost advocate of the Scottish Enlightenment view that morals are a function of the sentiment.

There's a few ethicists who stick with Aristotle's conception of virtue ethics, but basically, Adam Smith with David Hume providing epistemological support versus Kant is the fight within the field.

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Strac5 > Thrasymachus • 11 hours ago

But if utilitarianism is wrong, and deontologism is wrong, and virtue ethics is wrong, and sentiment or emotion-based morality is wrong, then they are all wrong. They must be rejected as an invalid basis for anything. That means the correct framework is still out there waiting to be discovered.

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Housecarl

On TB every waking moment
One more sampling....

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Deruman • 16 hours ago

The arguments against killing Hitler presented here defy logic and morality. It’s a navel-gazing meditation of what ifs and maybes describing how it might not have helped or might not have worked.

But we know one thing: Hitler’s charisma attracted evil from everywhere. He was the black hole around which it all orbited. It is very likely that his early demise would have left the world a better place.

In the end whether it might have worked or not you would have to take action in case it did. Any other choice is an outrage.

I can't help but think this article is a callous attempt at click bait. Any other interpretation disgusts me more.

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BradanFeasa > Deruman • 16 hours ago

"It is very likely"....evidence for that is significantly lacking. You can't just state that premise and then scream at the author for not agreeing with it.

The arguments the author presented are entirely logical and historically sound, following from the premise. You can disagree, but screaming about it without evidence just makes you look poor, not the piece.

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Deruman > BradanFeasa • 15 hours ago

You're just being argumentative.

I think most reasonable persons would agree that it is likely that killing Hitler would have left the world a better place. A gut-check would tell you this is so, but we don't need to resort to that -- the article provides the data. A plurality of those in the poll referenced in this article would have killed him (42%). Of those willing to take a position, a clear majority (58%) would have.

So perhaps the majority is wrong. But I doubt it.

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AddictionMyth > Deruman • 15 hours ago

The majority is wrong. Not the first time. :-)

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MumbleMumble > Deruman • 15 hours ago

An Internet poll is all the proof I need.

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Deruman > MumbleMumble • 15 hours ago

What does your gut tell you?

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MumbleMumble > Deruman • 14 hours ago

That a single person doesn't make that much of a difference.

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BradanFeasa > Deruman • 15 hours ago

No I'm not. Your comment was, quite frankly, stupid. You didn't even attempt to grasp the author's position, which was well argued from a historical perspective.

Most reasonable persons know little or nothing of history. Perhaps you should allow some historians to discuss the topic? Perhaps you should read my comment below, which covers why your position is unlikely and doesn't really make sense if you look at things from a wider angle. "Big man" history fell out of favor for a reason, and that reason is better data allows is to to understand complex interrelationships and not fall for simplistic explanations of causality.

This article does not provide any useful data. That poll is garbage, statistically. It is clickbait. You shouldn't set up ethical dilemmas with so much baggage, it skews the result.

So now you're appealing to a popular fallacy? Really?

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Deruman > BradanFeasa • 15 hours ago

Ad hominem so quickly? Not even any pretense to rationality?

By all means take your own poll. Do you expect any statistically significant population to disagree? I don't.

Here's a thought experiment (posted by me elsewhere, but I won't make you go look for it).

"There are many examples in history where strong potential energy exists but it takes an event or a person to create the spark that makes history. Just as often that spark never comes into existence.

"Imagine what might have been if a certain person was elected president of the US or premier of the USSR in 1960. With the wrong person in power in either country, it could have well led to a global nuclear firestorm.

"That potential energy has largely dissipated, but if it had not, and that spark had happened, would the survivors be speculating now as to whether they would have strangled that person in his crib if the opportunity presented itself?"

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BradanFeasa > Deruman • 15 hours ago

Calling a stupid argument stupid is not an ad hominem. I didn't call you stupid, though with your behavior here you're giving me a pretty huge opening to do so. Claiming your position is "rationality" as you use emotionally charged rhetoric and completely dismiss any attempt at historical analysis is ironic.

That's not a thought experiment, and it's the same junk "Great Man" history that I already mentioned. I'm a historian. You're not writing anything I haven't seen claimed numerous times by non-specialists. What I'm telling you is that your methodology is junk and you're not even bothering to try and grapple with my points or the author's points. You just keep restating your premise.

Basically you've reduced complex history to a single variable, one with very poor predictive power. Individuals are just as shaped by their environment as events as they shape them, if not more. Most people, particularly politicians, are reactive. Even Hitler himself, was largely reactive, using circumstances to his gain. He didn't build nationalism or anti-Semitism. He wasn't a military genius or bureaucratic savant. He found a message, hammered on it for well over a decade, and then largely harnessed existing anger and trends to build his regime.

I'm arguing history here, and you're playing "what if" like a child. The only reason I react so harshly is your first comment was extremely rude and dismissive of actual history.

I'm tired of the field being a playing ground for ideologues to scream about how their interpretation and views are the only valid ones.

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Deruman > BradanFeasa • 14 hours ago

You didn't mention you're a historian. You should have said so earlier.

You're no longer required to make rational arguments or respond rationally to mine. Instead, name-calling ("stupid" and "childlike") are sufficient.

I find no logic in what you say, and remain utterly unconvinced, but I believe you're right because you're an expert. I defer to your expertise.

But you have not explained to me what might have been if, instead of Khrushchev, another Soviet leader had, instead of banging his shoe, calculated that a pre-emptive strike might have been the best course of action. Perhaps he would have reasoned that Kennedy's youth and inexperience would have left the US unprepared. A true believer in communism, maybe he would have reasoned that the long-term outcome would have been worth it.

Given this plausible scenario, and given the opportunity to go back and kill him, would one do so? Would you? If not, why not?

If this question is beneath you, feel free to sling insults and decline to address it. And I'll stay off your grass too.

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BradanFeasa > Deruman • 14 hours ago

I've made numerous rational arguments, and you've ignored them and acted petulant.

You've presented no evidence for your initial comment. You've gone on a long aside whining about logic and rationality, after displaying none, and then insulted me repeatedly. That's all you've done. Do you really think your behavior here is convincing?

I haven't explained because your premise is ignorant. It ignores that both states are not dictatorships ruled by a single person with absolute power. You're ignoring internal checks and balances in the Soviet Union because you NEED to ignore them because your point is too simplistic to survive a comprehensive analysis of variables.

Your behavior here is immature, childish, and illogical. You're acting as if you're too good to be questioned, and completely ignoring every bit of substantive criticism I've mentioned. You haven't ONCE addressed any of my counterpoints.

Rationality indeed. Your behavior is childish. This is why I distrust people that crow on about "rationality". They always seem to behave this way.

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confidentialperson > Deruman • 4 hours ago

Concluding, one requires only to consider the circumstance at dealy plaza, to understand these factors and influence upon all of humanity. Suggested as a conspiracy, however, instrumented as multiple instance of isolated plans, purported as a simple uncomplicated act of individual, and however, substantiated by numerous different disparate, inconclusive, opposing and less than probable scenarios, its most conclusive characteristics is its association with social change, correlation to the Kennedy pathway which is an essential aspect of choline and phospholipid metabolism, the recognition of the nation in an astounding presidential oratory of the unfortunate nature of decision making at first WW in producing a hard uneven bitter peace which assure the second WW, an astounding effort to rectify uneven bitter peace achieved at Versailles with an uninhibited affordance of patronage during the airlift and standoff at Berlin, each illustrate that the recursive adjudication of events and influences of the universe to human event outcomes were affect through aspects of distance, location,
space and time. These also exhibit, that when nations, found themselves upon liberty, and include within their objectives the assurance of liberty among all humanity, the framework of the nation, incurs circumstance within their bounds that are produce from the collective influences to all among humanity. Those within systems of such nations, may have therefore requisitely have become protectors not principally of populations from each other, and instead protectors of all among humanity from the potential outcomes produced by influences and mechanisms within systems. Systems which produce artifacts utilized in events in which humanity may be caused to turn upon one another, as well as systems in which are required to be instrument to produce geopolitical adjudicative outcomes through instrumentation of such artifacts, might otherwise come to be complex which prioritizes its persistence over the humanity whom may have become imperiled through it being utilized its most detrimental capacity. Such systems, may have become circumstantially essential, and, however, do not impair the potential that resolution of the most incipient bases for circumstances which require them to be utilized in a detrimental capacity by remediating correlative detrimental factors within a nation might produce an alternative or synergistic effect by reshaping the influence of systems of liberty upon all among humanity.

It is herein suggested that by resolution of incipient bases of detrimental behavior and health status outcomes, within nations, and then among humanity, the Liberty and beneficence might supplant circumstances from which extremism may emerge. The valuing of oneself as much as one values others, and affording others the ability to be human in bases to perception, cognition, biophysiology, expression and behavior, enables one to be unencumbered by dogma, and to align interactions to the beneficence of all among humanity, including those whom circumstance may have caused to be regarded as antithetical to ones belief, cause, faction or interest.

One could not begin to ascertain the influence which are causal to a discreet outcome of human events, as these influences are convergence of factors of such expanse that only certainty is that pretending these are of an intrinsic nature, may be substantial participatory subterfuge requisite to attributing any substantial event to an individual. Such events may largely be produced by patterns, influences, traps and scapegoats, in which events occur before participants have been conceived, and after these participants have become victim to the shared circumstance of humanity in incurring progressive degradation of biophysiology. Changing the path of an individual in such events, may potentiate supplanting of another, or that these might occur holographically as events echo through distance, location, space and time. The best course of action, is to resolve why such detrimental events occur, the impetus of deprivation on which such extremism preys, and the resolution of the incipient causes of detrimental behavior and biophysiological outcomes at this instance because each among humanity who may no longer have vital being, as well as those whom have had their biomass detracted from the cumulative structural benefit to humanity, might echo through distance, location, space and time including the future and antecedent epochs. Such an echo may be similar to the most substantial longing between organisms, and its affect may be reassurance and reoccurrence of traumatic circumstance among humanity regardless of which location or era they may conduct their span of being. Remediating these, may have been the most imperative, productive, and pareto objective of humanity since the first human who helped another, immitigably and irreversibly changed the universe.


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confidentialperson > Deruman • 3 hours ago

Unproductive human events may occur for the same reason that every health intervention does not include diagnostics, reconstitution and therapeutics which utilized choline and phospholipid molecular pathways. If millions whom obtain health services aren't priority enough to include these base incipient cause of most detrimental human circumstance in therapeutics, how could consideration of the circumstances of hundreds of millions whom may not have contiguous physiological continuity extended into the current era be of genuine priority? The best hope to intervene the circumstances and events of other eras, future or backwards in time, is to address them by remediating their detrimental affect to all among humanity now, in this era. Each reference of a detrimental regiment as being antithesis to humanity, entangles them through the flow of information within the course of human events with all others considered to be of such antithetical influence to social, civilization and individual interests. Many of those individual, groups or entities otherwise have been regarded in such context merely resultant of whom they were, their characteristics, beliefs, location, eschewing of convention, competitively among many contexts, or simply because these were successful.

The unfortunate nature of this content is that unless one understands these factors, quoting from texts and events of substantial context can be very unproductive, and utilized to detriment of many among humanity. Texts, translations, as well as changing expressions, psychological or social influence, cannot be reconstituted across distance, location, space and time with certainty. Text cannot convey the intent, cognitive context or circumstance of a person or event whom may be being observed by person producing information or producing such information in subsequent era. The text or expression utilized may be less important than why the text or message was conveyed, the intent of the conveyor of such information or the influences and environment which shaped the context in which such message was provided. An admonition not to traverse a perilous ravine frequented by perilous creatures, does not suggest that centuries later one should not traverse a bridge spanning the ravine which has long been cleared of such creatures The Chadha and Trinity decisions represent national level instances in which it is recognized that which is in the letter of text, may not within the text at all. The requirement that one pay for an item obtain from another, does not require that one pay for item placed in ones hands by another for which there is no purchase intent, even though it is within the letter of the text.

Unless one understands these, then one could not determine the circumstance of another to a certainty of detriment, and would, potentially, conclude that one should not deprive any other of liberty or being based upon any event, unless all parties to such event including the person whom to whom responsibility has been attributed, also benefits. The disparate courses of experience, circumstances and events which culminate in adjudicative interactions which produce and outcome of distance, location, space and time, regarded as human events, are largely a product of influences outside of the individual, and persist within systems which could resolve incipient causal factors, and however nay not. Pervasively the circumstance and artifacts used in such events have been provided and persisted by systems among humanity.

Perhaps if all other locations which had been and may still be utilizing the mechanisms of detriment utilized by such regime, were to have abated or were to now discontinue such usage, then these might result in beneficial influence. Abatement of such activity might by more effective than attributing to individuals as well as groups responsibility for activity which are merely more densely exhibited reflection of detrimental practices attributed widely among civilization. In particular, however, such antithetical to humanity regimes may be pervasively architected and spoken into being, by systems which obtain benefit from introducing divisions among humanity which pervades as priority within conscious cognitive context until the shared circumstance of humanity, progression toward degradation of biophysiological systems, begins to become a shared priority. The most productive aspects of span of being, then become directed toward systems which may not have a priority of resolving the causes of detrimental behavioral and health status outcomes, as well as possible benefiting for the persistent assurance of these. The priority of all among humanity, regardless of their role within systems and their affect to all other among humanity, may optimally be each other. Otherwise, systems may be caused to be directed by the interests of other organisms, other biomes, other aspects of the universe, as well as factions or individuals whom may be influenced by such interests that are antithetical to all among humanity.

Systems founded upon liberty, may often be constructed to inherently be flexible enough to continuously be considered and improved according to the context of the productive and beneficent course of human experience. Such systems founded upon liberty, may have constructed guidelines and constructs intended to applied not within the boundaries of rigidity afforded by scroll, quill and linguists, and however instead by the forging of a new framework of human experience produced by the complete experience of humanity theretofore being adjudicated to an instance of distance, location, space and time in which its declaration and accord occurred. Moreover, a framework, with systems of consideration and clauses of elasticity, may have inherently presupposed something more grand, the continuous emergence of improved advancing levels of liberty, opportunity and freedom from the detrimental factors which had thereunto been scourge of those it affected as well as the scourge of all among humanity through its adjudicative progression toward human beneficence.

Moreover, as the duration of geopolitical level interactions, with those whom have been regarded as antithetical to liberty and the productive beneficent course of human events, increases, there may be an increasing potential that such interaction also increasingly exhibits inadequacies within. Therefore, a continuous framework of improvement nay have become required, such that nations founded upon liberty, might improve themselves in reflection thereof, or in substitution of such geopolitical interactions since among pragmatic frameworks of liberty may be somewhat certain effect to all other among humanity also.

The challenge, however, is to reduce these political, social, cultural and belief system imperatives to something which systems can consider, analyze, and acknowledge, an imperative priority of humanity with context of characteristics exhibited at its best moments as the objective for all systems produced by humans. Such systems should be adjusted by the understanding of the influences to humanity as well as circumstance of those whom have produced essential guiding artifacts to humanity heretofore, affording them to benefit of being human, with influences from circumstance, environment, experience, and inherent limitations one must assume when reducing convergence of influence from all aspects distance, location, space and time, upon cognition to the instrumentation of quill, scroll and linguistics.


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confidentialperson > Deruman • 3 hours ago


Attributing these events to an individual or culture may be less than adequate for a number of reasons. Almost every detrimental activity used to persecute others in this regime, is exhibited in some versions, though in discreet individual or less expansive combinations, within aspects of social and civilization systems of places considered to be the most progressive and developed upon the earth. Similarly, after the first WW, which began as substantially personal interaction that escalated because regard for those whom were in the service the incipiently involved nations security organizations where regarded with less priority than the inclination to show superiority of ones systems of geopolitical prowess. One nation in particularly was determined responsible for the first WW, although the United States President, McKinley, encouraged strongly that an even and unbitter agreement be instituted. This produced, in area already degraded from the affects of depleted resources and humanity, the type of destabilized impaired
economic and social conditions which pervasively through the span of the human experience has resulted in extremism.

The causus belli or final event which assured alignment of nations along the characteristics lines exhibiting during the first WW, illustrates what might be regarded as a case study in the effects of influences through distance, space and time, to be adjudicated again and again into locality which produced the popularly known or reported outcome, millions among humanity whom disappeared at the Somme and Flanders because there was not any material left, thereby depriving humanity of the essential biomass accumulation that is among the best indicator of progressing population and health status.

Sam Waterston on the history channel says this best in the between programming shows informational report. The first attempts to harm Ferdinand by would the would be doers of detriment were befuddled by ineptitude, skillful intervention and good fortune. The motorcade with Ferdinand in it went into different directions and the car with Ferdinand became lost. The driver, then stopped to ask directions, unfortunately having incurred one of the original would be doers of detriment, leaving Ferdinand vulnerable to the resulting detriment, thereby produce events which help assure the occurrence of the first WW. Similarly, the person whom the article presents, was known to have numerous instances in which attempts were made to end the chancellors tenure and spans of being. Unfortunately, the persistent provision of toxic factors had transformed the chancellor toward enfeeblement biophysiologically, which potentiated, if one considers groupthink dynamics, that behavior and activity became increasingly produced in accordance with psychological, spatial, informational, personal and biophysiological influences, instead of being a completely intrinsic nature. Mindguards, a groupthink dynamic, would then assure continuity of information which was in cognitive conscious context during decision making, producing predictable behavior and decision making which was more in accordance with utility of the small circle of mind guards than of any cultural intrinsic or gestationally introduced cause. The same factors which produce the greatest of leaders whom show a captivating connections with crowds during performances, would have become inverted by enfeeblement to produce someone being victimized within a small circle of mindguards to become a victimizer, in turn, of millions of others among humanity. Such enfeeblement and whimsical aspects of behavior, as the wildly exaggerated pantomiming observed in videos of speeches, may have permitting captivating performances, susceptibility resultant of enfeeblement as well as an uncanny ability to thwart circumstances which would have imparted Prominent geopolitical level leaders have often been successful based upon the uncanny ability integrated spatial influence, conventional information, and circumstance into decision making.

Systems, however, present particularly important consideration because in instances where one principle leader exhibits despotic influence, all within such systems may be vulnerable to despotic whim, affected by the susceptibilities of the despot, as well as the converse which in which systems themselves are able to be influenced by those external factors shaping such systems of internal or external nature. Thus events or influences in some different area or area may be affecting and shaping people or outcomes to assure that those vents which have already occurred in antecedent erase or those which may have already occur in eras which are to come, are assured. Similarly, another version of organisms from distant aspects of location, space and time, may be imparting influence which assures humanity persists upon a detrimental path, also potentiating that other influence may be directing the course of human events upon a improved compensating path.

That which is certain, is that all of human events eventually become considered and persist in accordance with their beneficence and productive nature in propelling humanity upon course of events which is much a pareto flow of the human experience as is possible. Moreover, all of the most unproductive detrimental detours of the human experience come to exhibit the nature of inadequacies among all of the systems of humanity, most particularly the biophysiological and metabolic pathways which become impaired during the shared circumstance of humanity in progressing toward demise as span of being may also progress. Most every aspect of the activities in the second WW exhibit references, homologues, and terminology when, if compared to biophysiology, can be mapped to choline and phospholipid deficiencies, pathways, and progressive associated pathologies. The aggregate activity of humanity is most similar when shown in context of similarities with biophysiology and the molecular bases of the shared circumstance in progressing span of being toward demise, which has been a pervasive impedance and reversible since the 1850s or much before. Such human events seem to have become the most pervasive emperor without clothes within the span of the flow of human experience. Deficiency of factor which is used to produce more than ninety percent and up to 99 percent of human biophysiology can be found to color all of human activity, and its progressive affect in accumulating detrimental biophysiological circumstance are the best biomedical indicators of susceptibility to detrimental health status, sudden adverse health events and detrimental behavioral outcomes.


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FREEBIRD

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Pipe dreams, yes, but also a bit of attempted justification for the mental game of "who is it OK to kill?".
 

WalknTrot

Veteran Member
One of those philosophy questions that made me hate philosophy.

Maybe too much of a realist, but I won't play those head games. Deal with the situation at hand - whatever it is.
 

Dozdoats

On TB every waking moment
Not EVEN philosophical.

You do not kill POTENTIAL.

Killing ACTUALITY however might be a different thing entirely.

In other words ... it is not IMO justifiable to kill someone for what they MIGHT do, while killing someone for what they HAVE DONE or ARE DOING is a different matter entire.
 
I was just thinking last night after seeing some old footage of Hitler's rise why Great Britain or France did not try to assassinate him. Was it fear of a "tit for tat" or just plain hoping for the best/inertia. Or as his plans firmed up for all to see it may have been that his protection was near impenetrable like Sadam Hussein's was.
 

Hfcomms

EN66iq
Pipe dreams, yes, but also a bit of attempted justification for the mental game of "who is it OK to kill?".

Bingo.

Have we not all read stories even on this website of 'thought' crimes? And stories of those who are supposedly genetically inclined to break the law or how to spot criminals by their brain waves or scans before they do an act? The article itself is a waste of bandwidth by the author simply because nobody can know ahead of time if a child is going to turn out as a saint or a mass murderer. There may be clues but in the end we don't know how it's going to pan out. And regardless, I don't want to put myself into the position of judge, jury and executioner if not in the place of God himself by considering such things.

God knew what Hitler was going to do and could of stopped him at any moment....but he didn't. There were so many attempts on Hitler's life that any of of them could of panned out. Some terrible things just have to happen the way that they did and we might not understand until in the far distant future the wisdom of God in causing what he does. What I always tell myself when I hear of something terrible that has happened is 'that if there was a better way for God to do something then he would do it that way'. He knows what he is doing. It is enough.
 

WalknTrot

Veteran Member
Thing is, nature (and societies) abhor a vacuum. Likely as not, someone else would have stepped up to the plate to fill the role if Hitler "never was". But I sure am not going to dwell on it.
 

TammyinWI

Talk is cheap
My take on it: if not Hitler, satan would have made sure some one else would have been groomed to pull it off.
 

raven

TB Fanatic
Hitler went to jail.
You have to think about that a second.
He went to jail. And then president Paul von Hindenburg appointed Hitler Chancellor.
He went to jail. And then was aided in part by his willingness to use violence in advancing his political objectives and to recruit party members who were willing to do the same.
Being one of the best speakers of the party, he told the other members of the party to either make him leader of the party or he would never return.

The idea of "killing baby Hitler" presupposes that Hitler's absence would make all these other people that were co-conspirators would not have been the evil bastards that they were.

Would the Democrat Party be any different without Obama?
 

Dozdoats

On TB every waking moment
I was just thinking last night after seeing some old footage of Hitler's rise why Great Britain or France did not try to assassinate him

They could have.

They chose not to do so.
 

The Mountain

Here since the beginning
_______________
Apparently, a year or so ago, they actually found Hitler's acceptance letter to the art college he applied for. Because of one careless postal worker, Europe looks very different today. In any case, "killing baby hitler" makes too many assumptions. Hitler wasn't the lone agent in his rise to power. Many others worked towards the same goal, and many many circumstances conspired to set the stage for the kind of horror seen in WWII. If Hitler hadn't been there, one of the others would have taken his role, and things might have been even worse. Imagine if, instead of a neurotic, insecure schlub, one of the saner Nazi Generals had ended up in the role of Fuhrer. The war could have lasted far longer, and been much more devastating. Or imagine if one of the even worse toadies that surrounded Hitler had taken his place. Germany might not have been so expansionist, but might have succeeded in purging the country of its "undesirables", and the war might not have happened because none of the other European nations would have had the stomach so soon after WWI to interfere in internal German politics.
 

Housecarl

On TB every waking moment
Hitler went to jail.
You have to think about that a second.
He went to jail. And then president Paul von Hindenburg appointed Hitler Chancellor.
He went to jail. And then was aided in part by his willingness to use violence in advancing his political objectives and to recruit party members who were willing to do the same.
Being one of the best speakers of the party, he told the other members of the party to either make him leader of the party or he would never return.

The idea of "killing baby Hitler" presupposes that Hitler's absence would make all these other people that were co-conspirators would not have been the evil bastards that they were.

Would the Democrat Party be any different without Obama?

The history and key events of post-1918 Armistice Germany through to 1934 are generally simplified within the general public understanding as "Germany lost, civil unrest, bad depression, Hitler and Nazis come to power leading to the Second World War.

As Raven has pointed out things are "more involved than that".

The history of how things went from one to the other in this case reads like Plantagenet/Tudor/Stewart(Stuart) English/British Isles political history. Key links in what Raven pointed out but are missing are two German Army officers (Ernst Röhm and Karl Mayr) and the activities of the German Army aimed at maintaining national cohesion and factions there within the government, the population and the Army on how to do so, or not.

Remember "Germany" only united in 1871 and even that wasn't completely the case (for that matter this formal process initially started up in 1815 involved a "lesser" and "greater" German state union. Sound familiar?).

A good "thought exercise" that a couple of friends and I indulged in briefly early Saturday morning (ETA: Before I saw this article or the poll it referenced) (my Friday night through Saturday afternoon was literally something out of an episode of Monty Python/Fawlty Towers/Seinfeld including seedy East Bay pool halls, 24 hour dining, and an impound lot in Oakland; all without any booze involved...IM me if you want the epic tale in full...drift off). If you were to look at the events leading up to the "Night of the Long Knives" and game it out in the reverse where Hitler and his inner circle were the ones "purged", with Rohm and his group in power instead, and look at what possibly happens next and through the 1940s and onward with all the interacting parties and issues involved we get into the meat of Raven's point. ETA 2: And that made by The Mountain as well.
 
Or the alternate universe in which Hitler decided not to open the Second Front with the Soviet Union, (Operation Barbarossa).

Euroland would still be under the heel of his successors, and a limited nuclear war would have likely occurred sometime in the 1940s between the U.S. and the Third Reich until saner heads prevailed, and the planet was divided up, (maybe, because Hitler was not totally rational).
 

Bicycle Junkie

Resident dissident and troll
I have sometimes thought that if Hitler had restrained his imperialism five years and fully developed nuclear weapons, jet planes and ICBM's, the present world would be a far different place. Germany without Hitler, but with Borman, Himmler, Goebbels and nukes--combined with patience--may have conquered the world.
Thank God that didn't happen. WWII taught the world an important lesson in evil.
 

Oreally

Right from the start
It wouldn't have been necessary to kill baby Hitler. Just raise him differently.

i don't know about that.there are some people who are just innately evil. and then there are the people and movement and ideas that AH encountered as a young man in vienna.

i think he was just the man for the job satan wante4d to see done.

supposedly his father beat him regularly, but his mothers was loving and coddling.
 

Richard

TB Fanatic
i don't know about that.there are some people who are just innately evil. and then there are the people and movement and ideas that AH encountered as a young man in vienna.

i think he was just the man for the job satan wante4d to see done.

supposedly his father beat him regularly, but his mothers was loving and coddling.

But you don't know until later and can those people influence others? They may be evil and not have any effect on others.
 

Housecarl

On TB every waking moment
I have sometimes thought that if Hitler had restrained his imperialism five years and fully developed nuclear weapons, jet planes and ICBM's, the present world would be a far different place. Germany without Hitler, but with Borman, Himmler, Goebbels and nukes--combined with patience--may have conquered the world.
Thank God that didn't happen. WWII taught the world an important lesson in evil.

A facet of the regime that doesn't get looked at too often was the amount of corruption and inefficiencies from the top down; absolute power corrupting the way it does. If he'd waited 5 years the other powers would have seen his rearming for what it was and done so in kind.

Considering the V-2 project cost 50% more than the Manhattan Project in real money in a significantly smaller and under constant air attack industrial base and how those resources could have been better applied are one example of poor German prioritization. If the Me-262 had been kept on track as a fighter, the Allied Bomber campaign would have been definitely impacted. Just being able to keep local or seriously contested air supremacy as opposed to completely loosing said same would have made a huge difference. That the Germans made the decision early on to not build up a significant long range bomber force as the RAF had even before the war crippled them both in terms of strategic bombing and reconnaissance, both strategic and maritime.

On the ground side, if tank production had been focused on a more mechanically sound version of the Panther instead of the Tiger I (costing between twice and eight times as much as circumstances within Germany shifted) and King Tiger (even more so) being built or for that matter further evolving the Panzer IV there would have been a lot more vehicles available covering more frontage with more punch. There's an quote from one of the German evaluators looking over the first captured Soviet T-34s brought back to Germany that goes along the lines of "This thing wouldn't pass our quality control system". Good enough in quantity when you need it vs gold plated best of the best.....The T-34 entered production in 1940, the Panther didn't start production until late 1942.

Equally significant to the European War was the loss to the Germans of the 250,000 troops and equipment at Stalingrad itself and a similar amount with the fall of North Africa in 1943. You can't loose 500,000 troops and their gear in less than 6 months, along with the rest of the attrition, and it not put you back on your heels.
 
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Meadowlark

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Well getting back to the topic, this seems to evolve around the concept of the man and moment theory. Hitler was not just born, he like many of his generation evolved. Those who served in that generation grew callous to death and suffering after being exposed to the horrors of the trenches. What he and his henchmen evolved into were ruthless men who were not afraid to use what were then called gangster tactics. The reasons that France and England did not wake up to the danger sooner had more to do with naivete.


I must also mention that I started getting a headache after reading those cut and past comments from NYT. Some interesting arguments were raised, but those commenters mostly succeeded in demonstrating why intellectuals should not smoke pot.
 

Housecarl

On TB every waking moment
Well getting back to the topic, this seems to evolve around the concept of the man and moment theory. Hitler was not just born, he like many of his generation evolved. Those who served in that generation grew callous to death and suffering after being exposed to the horrors of the trenches. What he and his henchmen evolved into were ruthless men who were not afraid to use what were then called gangster tactics. The reasons that France and England did not wake up to the danger sooner had more to do with naivete.


I must also mention that I started getting a headache after reading those cut and past comments from NYT. Some interesting arguments were raised, but those commenters mostly succeeded in demonstrating why intellectuals should not smoke pot.

First, sorry about the headache, for the "pearls" in them, the amount of "bay mud" to tread through I guess was a bit too much....

As to France and the UK, both were still dealing with internal economic and political problems and the last thing either wanted was another war.

The UK had a real left shift in politics after the war and the French politically were one step short of a civil war themselves, and their conscript army towards the end of the First World War had a mass mutiny that along with the heavy losses and wounded they'd had were still impacting both of their societies.
 

Garryowen

Deceased
Hitler went to jail.
You have to think about that a second.
He went to jail. And then president Paul von Hindenburg appointed Hitler Chancellor.
He went to jail. And then was aided in part by his willingness to use violence in advancing his political objectives and to recruit party members who were willing to do the same.
Being one of the best speakers of the party, he told the other members of the party to either make him leader of the party or he would never return.

The idea of "killing baby Hitler" presupposes that Hitler's absence would make all these other people that were co-conspirators would not have been the evil bastards that they were.

Would the Democrat Party be any different without Obama?

Probably not. But Obama wouldn't be where he is without the Democrat Party.
 

Meadowlark

Has No Life - Lives on TB
First, sorry about the headache, for the "pearls" in them, the amount of "bay mud" to tread through I guess was a bit too much....

As to France and the UK, both were still dealing with internal economic and political problems and the last thing either wanted was another war.

The UK had a real left shift in politics after the war and the French politically were one step short of a civil war themselves, and their conscript army towards the end of the First World War had a mass mutiny that along with the heavy losses and wounded they'd had were still impacting both of their societies.
LOL No problem and they were worth the laugh.

Totally agree, Europe was a shambles in the 30s, with the great depression and general dissatisfaction over the conclusion of the first world war. The treaty had settled nothing and all the warring parties were again at war within 20 years.
 
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