CHAT Polydactyl cats

ersatzpanther

Senior Member
Cats seem to be superior to humans in many ways: sight, hearing, smell and agility for instance. It has been said that if cats had opposable thumbs then they, not we humans, would rule the world. Be that as it may, I have 3 polydactl cats who have opposable thumbs. Fortunately for us, they are sweet, friendly cats who have no plans to rule anything except the food tray and the litter box.

Here are pix of my 3 polys. If you have one or more feel free to add to this thread:

Ellie:
PolyCats_Ellie.jpg


Machie:
PolyCats_Machie.jpg


Tux:
PolyCats_Tux.JPG
 

zeker

Has No Life - Lives on TB
I have 1 left

she also has an odd 'toenail' which appears to grow partway up her back leg

the first time a found it, I thot it was a small button that had somehow got stuck to her

I pulled on it and she let me know it was attached
 

WalknTrot

Veteran Member
I've sure seen plenty with extra toes over the years. Seems no purpose to it - actually, like dew claws on dogs, more something to go wrong. When they aren't attached by bone in the normal way, they tend to get injured/caught on stuff and ripped more often.
 

It'sJustMe

Deceased
We had a pure white Hemingway cat back in the 1980's. He hailed from southern Florida, not far from the famous Hemingway (Ernest) mansion. When Earnest passed away, he left his Hemingway Mansion in the Key's to his hundreds of poly's. He also endowed them with the money to have people on staff 24/7, to tend to their every need. Purr D. Katt graced us with his presence, for 19 years.
 

Melodi

Disaster Cat
Some Polys have usable "thumbs" but most just have extra toes, it is a "mutation" that can be inherited; husband and I were joking the other day that someone with an "evil" mind should breed those with opposable thumbs to those with opposable thumbs then no cupboard or door would be safe! lol

Siamese and some other Oriental Cats, especially those bred as "working cats" (Siamese were Temple Treasure Guardians trained to swam and take down a thief until the monks could grab them) don't even seem to need the thumbs to do amazing things like work doorknobs, open drawers, turn lights on and off, turn on the TV (we had one that used to turn on the old cable box and change the channels) and other things requiring a very "hand like" use of the front paws.

Some other breeds like Norwegian Forest Cats and Main Coons (Coons often have extra paws and the Hemingway cats are probably originally Maine Coons) can walk on their hind legs for a bit and often sit up like a person; then use their front paws in creative and interesting ways (like grabbing food out of your hand when you are not paying attention).

As a child, I saw an inbred colony of red tabbies where the tomcat had 10 toes on each foot (double feet) and the poor thing could barely walk, the Mom and most of the kittens just had "normal" extra toes but not extra paws, my kitten had six (that we took home with us) on each foot; but I never forgot that poor tom with the double feet on each limb.
 

ersatzpanther

Senior Member
Melodi provides good info on polydactl cats. They are not inbred, but have a recessive gene that determines polydactlism.

Mine have real toes with bone, claw, etc, not some fleshy appendage. One (Machie) has an extra partial toe on each hind leg (as mentioned above), but it is not next to the main toes.

The extra toes do not seem to both them as they get around fine.
 

Meemur

Voice on the Prairie / FJB!
Some other breeds like Norwegian Forest Cats and Main Coons (Coons often have extra paws and the Hemingway cats are probably originally Maine Coons) can walk on their hind legs for a bit and often sit up like a person; then use their front paws in creative and interesting ways

Mine has learned to open all of the cupboard doors, the bathroom door, and is working on my bedroom door, but it has a skinny knob which she can't turn when I latch the door, which I don't do very often.
 

ersatzpanther

Senior Member
I forgot to mention that my sources on the topic point out that polydactlism is not confined to cats, but includes humans, dogs and other mammals like guinea pigs. None of them gain any particular advantage to the extra digit, but OTOH, it doesn't seem to hinder them much.
 

AlaskaSue

North to the Future
Not me but my folks on the Island had one with multiple extra toes on each foot. We called him the bird murderer because he killed so many of them :mad: - good at rats and rabbits too. Cat was very loving to humans though.
 

NC Susan

Deceased
Cats seem to be superior to humans in many ways: sight, hearing, smell and agility for instance. It has been said that if cats had opposable thumbs then they, not we humans, would rule the world. Be that as it may, I have 3 polydactl cats who have opposable thumbs. Fortunately for us, they are sweet, friendly cats who have no plans to rule anything except the food tray and the litter box.

Here are pix of my 3 polys. If you have one or more feel free to add to this thread:

Ellie:
PolyCats_Ellie.jpg


Machie:
PolyCats_Machie.jpg


Tux:
PolyCats_Tux.JPG


They look like mittens, not feet
 

EYW

Veteran Member
I live in Key West. I have to be careful when I mention my former Key West cat herd, that I specify they were not Hemingway cats, just average street cats and strays from Key West. For the most part, Key West is a good place to be a cat.

When my brother made a visit to Key West (he was on a cruise so it was only a few-hour stopover), he did the Hemingway House for Hemingway and the cats and lunch with me.
 

BH

. . . .
When I first read the thread title, I actually thought it said "pterodactyl cats"...

Me too, but today I read it correctly/

1st wife and I had a 25 pounder with 7 claws on each front foot. His thumbs were usable, he would pick food up out of his bowl with one hand and examine it before putting it in his mouth.

I had a pair of heavy gloves that when I put them on, the cat would make a face, lay his ears back, growl and go into 100% attack mode.

One day wifey put a pack of 4 frozen chicken thighs in the sink to thaw out while we were at work.

Came home and the packaging was in the sink, but all 4 thighs were nowhere to be found.

Even the bones were gone.

He was a really cool, monster cat.
 

Melodi

Disaster Cat
Cats are designed by nature to eat RAW birds, my friend that is a vet that looked over my barn cat books years ago said that in an emergency situation (like a disaster) if you HAVE to feed cats by say throwing them some dead chickens or other birds with bones make sure they are RAW.

She said while it is NOT good practice to just feed small cats chickens with bones still in them, in reality, cats are designed to eat birds raw (the feathers in my office prove that lol) and it is the COOKED chicken bones that most often kill cats because they become rubbery and bend rather than snapping apart and that is what lodges in the throat and can kill the cat.
 

ersatzpanther

Senior Member
One day wifey put a pack of 4 frozen chicken thighs in the sink to thaw out while we were at work.

Came home and the packaging was in the sink, but all 4 thighs were nowhere to be found.

Even the bones were gone.

Obviously, the scavenging behavior has nothing to do with polydactlism. It also has to be learned from the mama cat. My polys are well fed and could care less about a piece of raw chicken on the counter, but I put it in the microwave to thaw just in case.

Two previous cat were enthusiastic "dumpster divers" because they were originally true alley cats taught my mom. You had to guard everything from those guys. LOL!
 

Melodi

Disaster Cat
Obviously, the scavenging behavior has nothing to do with polydactlism. It also has to be learned from the mama cat. My polys are well fed and could care less about a piece of raw chicken on the counter, but I put it in the microwave to thaw just in case.

Two previous cat were enthusiastic "dumpster divers" because they were originally true alley cats taught my mom. You had to guard everything from those guys. LOL!

Sorry but a lot depends on the individual cats, I have lived with kitties who never took anything off the counter and others who will steal the food off your plate if you turn your back.

Some cats can be trained not to bother things (at least not while you are looking) and others could just care less; it is like hunting skills while a cat with a hunting mother will be a better hunter (usually) than one not taught by Mom or an older Auntie or Uncle cat; some cats just become Mighty Destroyers of Mice (or toilet rolls) and others will let a mouse eat out of their food dish and just watch.

Cats are not dogs, some breeds like Siamese are very trainable, others like Persians will simply be confused (with individual exceptions) and others like Forest Cats will hunt in packs both in the wild and in the tame (and watching two or three forest cat's pack hunting a fly, coming from different directions like wolves is a bit scary).
 

MinnesotaSmith

Membership Revoked
Nah, no chance, EP...

It has been said that if cats had opposable thumbs then they, not we humans, would rule the world.

They don't cooperate well, not at all. They'd do even worse than the blacks do at maintaining organized civilizations. My prediction would be, should all primates (we're primates, too) get wiped out, for social insects to replace us, with the Cephalapods as long-shot Second place.
 

Melodi

Disaster Cat
They don't cooperate well, not at all. They'd do even worse than the blacks do at maintaining organized civilizations. My prediction would be, should all primates (we're primates, too) get wiped out, for social insects to replace us, with the Cephalapods as long-shot Second place.

Actually, as I mentioned, Norweigan Forest Cats do cooperative hunting (like lions) and in the wild live in Prides; older males will often tolerate their grown sons in the pride which is highly unusual for most feral colonies of "domestic cats."

Scientist thinks this is probably because they compete with Northern Lynxes for some of their game - baby deer and without pack hunting, they simply wouldn't be able to bring down game that large; nor would they be able to compete with Lynxes without their Pride structure.

Pride living IS in Cat genetics and you see echoes of it even in feral colonies but it isn't consistent and cooperation tends to be limited to females sharing parenting duties; ditto some of the males (Uncle Cats) and some hunting for well-liked weaker members (on feral tom was nearly 16 when he came to the shelter and had been born without eyes, the other cats were observed hunting for him and feeding him like a kitten).

But Forest Cats are no longer quite domestic cats, they have physical changes as well; including special claws unique to them that allow them to climb sheer cliff faces as well as Northern Forest Trees.

On the other hand, we have joked about doing a science fiction story with what a "real" cat society would look like (there are a few out there already that are fun but most leave out the bad parts) or as my friend the vet said during such a conversations, "yes for a child's birthday you would go to the mouse store - and buy combination treats and toys!"

Most cats don't cooperate all that well, so there would have to be some big changes to get them to take over the world; dogs/wolves would have a better chance because their cooperation is consistent and their pack structure more organized than even Lion or Forest Cat Prides.

My husband favors Cephalopods as well and there was one Sci-Fi book along those lines but I can't remember the name just now, the best Cats as Civilized I've read so far has been Uhura's Song a rare jewel among many silly Star Treck Novels (there are a few others like Spock's World or The City on the Edge of Forever).

But in that book, the Cats have their own world they didn't take over ours.

31T5X5972YL._BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

https://www.amazon.com/Uhuras-Song-.../ref=tmm_kin_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr=
 

night driver

ESFP adrift in INTJ sea
I'd have to dig through the non-circulating stacks to see if I could find the short series of novels that had a khaat society that was pretty well developed and intertwingled with the human society on that world. Was fun since the khaats were telepathic
 

MinnesotaSmith

Membership Revoked
Sounds like the Kzinti....

On the other hand, we have joked about doing a science fiction story with what a "real" cat society would look like (there are a few out there already that are fun but most leave out the bad parts) or as my friend the vet said during such a conversations, "yes for a child's birthday you would go to the mouse store - and buy combination treats and toys!"

...the best Cats as Civilized I've read so far has been Uhura's Song a rare jewel among many silly Star Treck Novels (there are a few others like Spock's World or The City on the Edge of Forever).

But in that book, the Cats have their own world they didn't take over ours.

31T5X5972YL._BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

https://www.amazon.com/Uhuras-Song-.../ref=tmm_kin_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr=

From LiberalPedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kzin

The Kzinti (singular Kzin) are a fictional, very warlike and bloodthirsty race of cat-like aliens in Larry Niven's Known Space series.

The Kzinti were initially introduced in Niven's story "The Warriors" (originally in Worlds of If (1966), collected in Tales of Known Space (1975)) and "The Soft Weapon" (1967), collected in Neutron Star (1968). A Kzin character, Speaker-to-Animals (later known as Chmeee), subsequently played a major role in Niven's Hugo and Nebula award-winning Ringworld (1970) and Ringworld Engineers (1980), giving considerably more background of the Kzinti and their interactions with human civilizations. Following Ringworld, Niven gave permission to several friends to write stories taking place in the time following "The Warriors" but before "The Soft Weapon"; these stories (including a handful by Niven) were collected in a number of volumes of The Man-Kzin Wars, which eventually reached fourteen volumes, the first published in June 1988. Kzinti also appear in Juggler of Worlds (2008) and Fate of Worlds (2012), novels within the Fleet of Worlds series (cowritten with Edward M. Lerner).

The Kzinti were also written by Niven into the Star Trek universe, appearing first in Star Trek: The Animated Series, also in Star Fleet Universe, as well as material for Star Trek: Enterprise that was never aired because of the series' cancellation.

Background and history
Kzinti evolved from a plains hunting felid on a planet slightly colder and drier than Earth. The Kzin word for their home planet translates as Homeworld. The world is often known as Kzinhome by the Kzinti themselves. The Kzin home world is the third planet orbiting the star 61 Ursae Majoris.

The Kzin civilization was at an iron-age technological level when an alien race called the Jotoki landed and made stealthy first contact with a tribe of primitive hunter/gatherer Kzinti. The Jotok were interstellar merchants looking for a species they could use as mercenaries.

Once the Jotok had taught the Kzinti how to use high-technology weapons and other devices (including spacecraft), the Kzin rebelled and made their former masters into slaves, as well as the occasional meal. The crest of the Riit (Royal) family appears to be a bite mark, but is in fact a dentate leaf, with the words "From mercenary to master." written around it in Kzinti script.

Kzin society is extremely male dominated. The leader of the race is called the Patriarch, which is a hereditary title. The Kzinti call themselves "Heroes" or the "Heroes Race" and because they believe themselves to be "heroes", their society places a very high value on "acting Heroic" and behaving in a heroic fashion.

To Kzin society, "heroic" means being honorable and having integrity. Kzin honor, called strakh, is similar in many ways to the samurai code of Bushido. Strakh serves as almost a sort of currency or favour system, since they do not use money in their culture. For example, if the Patriarch gets meat from a seller's market stand, the seller gains considerable strakh, which will bring honour to the seller allowing him to get better customers, in turn leading to more strakh, giving the seller a higher status within the community.

Once Kzinti gained access to genetic-manipulation technology, they started manipulating themselves in order to bring out the most "heroic" qualities and recede undesired ones. To this end, because females are not valued except as bearers of children, the male-dominated Kzin society bred (most of) their own females into sub-sapience.

Kzinti are often described as anthropomorphic tigers, but there are significant and visible differences. Kzinti are larger than humans, standing around 8 feet (2.4 m) tall and weighing around 500 pounds (230 kg). These tiger-sized bipeds have large membranous ears, a barrel-chested torso with a flexible spine, and large fangs and claws. One human gave an apt description of Kzin as "eight feet of death".

Unlike some popularly depicted anthropomorphic animals, Kzinti stand on two legs like humans do; they do not have digitigrade or "backward-bending" legs. Their hands end in three fingers and an opposable thumb, all with retractable claws.

Kzinti are covered with a thick coat of long fur that comes in various combinations of orange, yellow, and black. Full black coats are rare.

Kzinti tails are naked and are similar in appearance to a rat's tail, and their noses are black. Kzinti ears have fur only on the outside of the ear and only about halfway up the ear itself, usually appear pink, and are shaped liked a segment of a Chinese parasol (or cocktail umbrella; they are also sometimes described as "bat-winged"); they can fold back flat against the head for protection during a fight.

Kzinti speak in a hissing language called the Hero's Tongue, which in its written form resembles commas and periods.

Kzinti cubs are tested by the Black Priests. Females are tested for intelligence; the ones who flunk their tests by revealing too high an intelligence are killed.[citation needed] Males are tested for telepathy; the ones who exhibit telepathic ability are forced into addiction of a drug derived from the lymph of an animal called a sthondat. Sthondat lymph extract significantly increases telepathic ability, but it is addictive, and is toxic with long use, causing muscle atrophy and thinning fur. The black-fur gene and the telepath gene are exclusive; no completely black-furred Kzin is telepathic, and all such cubs are taken by the Black Priests and raised within their cult.

Telepaths are tolerated by the warrior class due to the specialized use of their skill, otherwise they endure a low-caste position in society, just above the status of slaves, with the occasional slave being considered of a higher social status. Telepaths rarely, if ever, earn a name, and are legally forbidden to breed.

Most Kzin females (s. Kzinrret, pl. Kzinrretti) are sub-sapient, with a vocabulary of fewer than a hundred word/sounds and primarily instinct-driven behavior, and are treated as chattel by males (s. Kzintosh, pl. Kzintoshi). This was not always the case: archaic Kzinrretti were sapient until the Kzin used Jotoki biotechnology to drive them to their current state while boosting the martial prowess of the males. Kzin society explains this by stating that the Fanged God removed the Kzinrretti souls as punishment for an attempted rebellion against him shortly after he created the Kzinti. Even by the period of the novels, certain bloodlines still produce sentient females, as do some, if not most, primitive tribes. These tribes, long isolated from the Patriarchy, avoided the genetic modifications. At least two sentient females exist on Wunderland, and a population also exists on the Ringworld.

The Kzinti are the first on-going alien contact that humanity has met within the Known Space universe. The first contact with humanity ends the human golden era of peace, where even history has been rewritten in a non-violent whitewash; organized violence was virtually eliminated, being reduced to roughly 1 in 1000 people, and interpersonal violence was unknown, except occasional outbursts in the asteroid belt where both medical and psychological care were spread thinly."
 

Melodi

Disaster Cat
I like Kzinti (and we were talking about those books when we started the conversation) and they are fun but they still don't quite "get it" (in my opinion) Urhura's song is more from a Female Cat's viewpoint in "traditional" cat society that has surprises that are not seen at first.

Both are fun and of course, there is Leslie Fish's Song
We are the Pride of Chaunur (about 3 minutes)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nUi3DaWzGI
 

ersatzpanther

Senior Member
Wow! This thread has gone somewhere, although not exactly off-topic, but more alt-universe. I'm also a Larry Niven (and Jerry Pournelle) fan, but somehow I missed the SciFi 8' Kzin cats. I wouldn't want to meet one anywhere, but less a dark alley. LOL!
 

MinnesotaSmith

Membership Revoked
Wow! This thread has gone somewhere, although not exactly off-topic, but more alt-universe. I'm also a Larry Niven (and Jerry Pournelle) fan, but somehow I missed the SciFi 8' Kzin cats. I wouldn't want to meet one anywhere, but less a dark alley. LOL!

You're forgetting that humans absolutely kicked Kzinti tail in at least three wars.
Individually and unarmed, sure. But, humans don't make war that way.
 
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