(Pol) I just made up my mind to vote Republican...

eaglefeather

Inactive
REPUBLICANS PLAN PUSH FOR ELIMINATION OF IRS

**Exclusive**

A domestic centerpiece of the Bush/GOP agenda for a second Bush term is getting rid of the Internal Revenue Service, the DRUDGE REPORT has learned.

The Speaker of the House will push for replacing the nation's current tax system with a national sales tax or a value added tax, Hill sources tell DRUDGE.

"People ask me if I’m really calling for the elimination of the IRS, and I say I think that’s a great thing to do for future generations of Americans," Speaker of the House Dennis Hastert explains in his new book, to be released on Wednesday.

"Pushing reform legislation will be difficult. Change of any sort seldom comes easy. But these changes are critical to our economic vitality and our economic security abroad," Hastert declares in SPEAKER: LESSONS FROM FORTY YEARS IN COACHING AND POLITICS.

"“If you own property, stock, or, say, one hundred acres of farmland and tax time is approaching, you don’t want to make a mistake, so you’re almost obliged to go to a certified public accountant, tax preparer, or tax attorney to help you file a correct return. That costs a lot of money. Now multiply the amount you have to pay by the total number of people who are in the same boat. You can’t. No one can because precise numbers don’t exist. But we can stipulate that we’re talking about a huge amount. Now consider that a flat tax, national sales tax, or VAT would not only eliminate the need to do this, it could also eliminate the Internal Revenue Service (IRS) itself and make the process of paying taxes much easier."

"By adopting a VAT, sales tax, or some other alternative, we could begin to change productivity. If you can do that, you can change gross national product and start growing the economy. You could double the economy over the next fifteen years. All of a sudden, the problem of what future generations owe in Social Security and Medicare won’t be so daunting anymore. The answer is to grow the economy, and the key to doing that is making sure we have a tax system that attracts capital and builds incentives to keep it here instead of forcing it out to other nations."

Developing...
 

bigwavedave

Deceased
how will this grow the economy? what jobs do they have lined up for the tax accountants and IRS employees?

also keep in mind that the tax codes provide shelter to those who can afford to find it. it will be VERY difficult to take that away!
 

Freeholdfarm

Inactive
You know, as long as they are getting paid out of our pockets, I really don't care if the IRS employees have jobs or not. I think a flat tax or some such would be a great improvement over the mess we have. However, fat chance of ever getting it through. I suspect this information, if true, is being leaked to up GW's chances of getting re-elected in November. And if I really thought they could swing it, I'd change my voter registration back to Republican and vote for them.

Kathleen
 

Old Eagle

Veteran Member
EagleFeather,

I thought you were kidding.

Went to Drudge to check and ...

Dang! You weren't kidding!!!

Boy, what a great thought. I hope they are serious.

Old Eagle
:chg:
 

medic38572

TB Fanatic
Thats because they know they are found out ?we have been paying taxes all this time illegally!!The only people who have to pay taxes is the import export people!!
I said 3 yrs ago this was coming and it is that way everyone will pay taxes even the old retired folks on social security watch it will happen!
 

Flagwaver

Membership Revoked
Great headsup, Eaglefeather! :)

I hope this stays on the main page in spite of the thread title because this is really an economic issue as opposed to a political one.
 

eaglefeather

Inactive
Cast my vote for ......

a National Sales Tax. Those who choose to tread lightly on the planet could/ would pay less. Makes "eco-sense" to me.
 

Freeholdfarm

Inactive
You're right, Eaglefeather -- and if they would replace all property taxes with a sales tax, it would be even better. But the property taxes enable them to have some control over landowners, who really are only leasing their land from the taxing authority.

Kathleen
 

Fred's Horseradish

Membership Revoked
I've been promoting the national sales tax for several years. I've contributed to the Fair Tax people. A national sales tax or even VAT would be better than what we have now. A flat tax would not solve anything, still have the Facist IRS.

Most demon crates would oppose it I'm afraid. Do support everyone. There is a cost of living rebate in the program to take care of retired & poor people. $2000 + I think for each person.
Fred
Promote it: :sht:
IRS: :xpnd:
 

milkydoo

Inactive
Well, well, well. Now it's starting to get interesting. Kerry is pushing for tax hikes on the rich, while many disgruntled Bush backers are headed towards Kerry or 3rd parties, and Bush comes out with a double shot of "Up Yours!" at the IRS? Perfect timing. Personally, if true, I think this could put him over the top, easily. We may even have Bush haters voting for him just to get rid of the frigging IRS!
 

Charlie

Membership Revoked
bigwavedave said:
how will this grow the economy? what jobs do they have lined up for the tax accountants and IRS employees?

also keep in mind that the tax codes provide shelter to those who can afford to find it. it will be VERY difficult to take that away!

They can come mow my lawn or clean my windows. Like I give a rats ass! :fgr: em!
 

bobaloo

Inactive
Well, the Republicans have control of the House, Senate and Executive branches, so let's see if they mean it or if this is just electioneering. If it's passed by November 1 I'll believe it, if not you'll never hear of it again.
 

ainitfunny

Saved, to glorify God.
This is an empty shadow of a promise that will never be actually issued to the voters officially, but will circulate as a cultivated rumor until they are pressed to say they "promise to look into the feasibility of doing away with the IRS" will be enough to bait a large number of gullible voters to swing Republican.
Of course, it will be found unworkable, but more rules will be written to make it fairer we will be assured.

Chumps, fall for that and what you will get is the "new improved" IRS with all the withholding you now pay AND A NATIONAL SALES TAX AND A VALUE ADDED TAX TO BOOT.
 

RJC

Has No Life - Lives on TB
When did I first hear this conversation, let's see how old am I? And how many times since? The reality is this: if the infrastructure is so damaged that the criminal can not access his confused victim, then go to the tool of last resort.
 

Cabal

Pissed off Patriot
RJC said:
When did I first hear this conversation, let's see how old am I? And how many times since? The reality is this: if the infrastructure is so damaged that the criminal can not access his confused victim, then go to the tool of last resort.

Or perhaps those in the know have come to the realization that the current welfare system, ie SS, is doomed to a near term failure unless the system is radically changed... face it, the average American will put up with a lot of crap... but tax rates of 89% to the average Joe to pay for SS will result in a revolt...
Something has to give and I just can't see the government telling folks to forget their SS...
 

Hurricanehic

Veteran Member
Folks the important part is being missed.....for the first time the Underground economies, drugs, illegals, you name it would help pay their way. The VAT tax has been kicked around since the days of the laffler curve.

THIS WOULD BE HUGE FOR OUR CHILDREN! First dynamic thing I've seen that makes me think the future could be better.

Oh and about those ex IRS agents, well I here Iraq could use a few good audits
 

Fred's Horseradish

Membership Revoked
Under the Fair Tax plan, demon IRS must go. The rate of the federal tax can't be set, but suggested is 23%. Which isn't bad, I'd pay it for sure. But it isn't that bad either, it is estimated it costs the country about 225 billion a year to comply with the income tax. I believe it.
I would be willing to reduce the wholesale price of my products substantially under that program.
Fred
 

Brutus

Membership Revoked
Let's give this one a big ol'......

HELL YEAH!!!!


BWD, the shot in the arm this would give to the economy would create more than enough jobs for the out of work CPAs, tax lawyers (like I give a f**k about them), and IRS agents (like I give even less of a f**k about THEM). And don't forget, there'll still have to be some bureau to oversee the collection of the nat'l. sales tax or VAT.
 

Ice

Inactive
SLAYING the IRS tax monster

This is a course on the Court Cases, Laws, Statutes, and violations of those laws which govern the IRS. Protest against the IRS increases. Protesters learn laws and court cases which protect protesters from IRS. The main questions posed here are:
Is the Income Tax imposed as a Direct Tax in contradiction to the prohibitions in the U.S. Constitution, on the "apportionment" provision?
Does an individual have to pay the federal income tax?
Does a corporation have to pay the federal income tax?
Did the 16th Amendment give the power to levy taxes on an individual?
Did the US Supreme Court make any rulings on the 16th Amendment?
What were those rulings and what did they say?
Why is protest growing daily?

For more info go here

http://cconces.tripod.com/monster.html

and click here


Edit Sorry wanted to add this if they pass this law its because they HAVE to

since to many people are already protesting the legality of the IRS
 
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dieseltrooper

Inactive
Where's Pentel Pen? We need his input....
tongue.gif
 

Oilpatch Hand

3-Bomb General, TB2K Army
Doesn't matter what type of tax you have...

...you'll still need an enforcement mechanism. For any and every type of tax, there will be those who will try to evade it.

You may end up with a bureacracy with all of the functions and powers of the IRS, just with a cuter-sounding name. Hey, but then we'll be rid of the IRS, right...? :cool:
 
bigwavedave asks:

"how will this grow the economy? what jobs do they have lined up for the tax accountants and IRS employees?"

Same "jobs" that "they" had lined up for all of the white collar professional IT folks who are enduring the outsourcing of high wage/skill jobs.

Zilch.


Hurricanehic correctly notes:

"Folks the important part is being missed.....for the first time the Underground economies, drugs, illegals, you name it would help pay their way."

A VERY IMPORTANT point, indeed -- thanks for reminding us -- formerly unrealized tax revenues would come pouring into the flat/VAT tax system -- the underground folks could not avoid it.


intothegoodnight
 
-
(snip)
<B>I have some fine swampland in Florida to sell anyone gullible enough to believe this.</B>
(snip)

I heard this one (statement) last back in 1972......

And the fellow sold that land to Walt Disney for a theme park in Florida (not joking).

You'd be surprised what that swamp land brought in for that old boy...
 

expose'

The Pulse......
You know.......There may actually be something to this!

In Washington State - there is a Republican running for Senate against Patty Murray ( A Liberal Democrat incumbant). The Republican - Nethercutt has already proposed allowing state sales tax refunds on federal tax forms for our states citizens! (We currently have no state income tax - but a large sales tax that has been non-refundable..) I thought this was a wonderful idea - to be able to claim a refund on some of my state sales tax!!) :D Just about EVERYONE thinks this is a great idea! - except for the liberal Democrats who see their state cash cow (our tax money) deflating ....

Anyway - I thought it was quite unusual for Nethercutt to place this state sales tax refund on his agenda - I thought it was pretty ambitious!......but now I'm wondering if it is part of an overall republican tax overhaul? :D :D (can you see I'm smiling Dave?? ) :D :D

This would almost guarantee a win for Nethercutt in the Senate race - which would mean a win for the Republicans in congress -which would mean a win for the citizens of this country because the tax change could be ratified with a republican majority! I wonder if other states have republicans running for House or Senate on some kind of tax refund or overhaul ticket?
 

Ought Six

Membership Revoked
I am afraid I have to agree with the skeptics here. The only thing I can think of that would force the elimination of income tax through Congress is if a court decision ruled that the present personal income tax scheme was unconstitutional. I do not consider that likely. This is all meaningless political happy-talk.

It is really too bad, because as Hh rightly pointed out, it would be great for our children if we could get a VAT in place of the personal income tax.

One small correction to the article, though.... Eliminating the personal income tax would not get rid of the IRS. We would still need tax collectors. We would just need a hell of a lot less of them, and they could only harass business owners.
 

Cabal

Pissed off Patriot
Ought Six said:
I am afraid I have to agree with the skeptics here. The only thing I can think of that would force the elimination of income tax through Congress is if a court decision ruled that the present personal income tax scheme was unconstitutional. I do not consider that likely. This is all meaningless political happy-talk.

It is really too bad, because as Hh rightly pointed out, it would be great for our children if we could get a VAT in place of the personal income tax.

One small correction to the article, though.... Eliminating the personal income tax would not get rid of the IRS. We would still need tax collectors. We would just need a hell of a lot less of them, and they could only harass business owners.

Under 1 plan.. Business would not pay tax... they don't purchase things on a retail level... hence their cost of doing busines drops and they can then pass along their savings to you and I... I know people say.. hell, they won't drop their price... but they will... it's called competition... :)
 

freebyrd

Membership Revoked
Thank God, you weren't a Founding Father...

whatever...look i'm no fan of the insidious ripoff service, but if anything comes of this which i doubt, it seems like election year politics to me, but if it were to happen whatever comes will not be any better in the long run, it is not the nature of government to implement policies that weakens itself and its control over its people,

but believe what you want, only time will tell
freebyrd
 

Cabal

Pissed off Patriot
freebyrd said:
whatever...look i'm no fan of the insidious ripoff service, but if anything comes of this which i doubt, it seems like election year politics to me, but if it were to happen whatever comes will not be any better in the long run, it is not the nature of government to implement policies that weakens itself and its control over its people,

but believe what you want, only time will tell
freebyrd

Like I said.. thank God, you weren't a Founding Father... what you just said above ran contrary to what those folks actually implemented...
Bottom line... if the Bush administration only pays lip service to this sales tax, that is a MAJOR accomplishment... as it stands now, Joe Sixpack has never heard of fairtax.org or even a generic national sales tax... if this gets picked up by the mainstream and it DOES become a major campaign issue, then the seed is sown...
somewhere down the line... the average Joe is going to realize just what a boost the sales tax would mean, esp when the tax rates start rising to compensate for the increase in SS recipients...
 

Aleph Null

Membership Revoked
This being discussed out in the open is not new. As at least one example, Steve Forbes talked about it seriously when he made his presidential run.. back in 96 was it? And a few people got all excited about it.. and then it died. And I believe it has happened before and since then as well.

Be realistic: NOTHING is going to change. You really think the Republicans are going to piss off tens of thousands of fat cat individuals and corporations in the tax and accounting industry? Income tax is BIG business.

I find it incredible that so many people here are skeptical of so much yet cannot see this ploy for what it is.

-A0-
 

Cabal

Pissed off Patriot
Aleph Null said:
This being discussed out in the open is not new. As at least one example, Steve Forbes talked about it seriously when he made his presidential run.. back in 96 was it? And a few people got all excited about it.. and then it died. And I believe it has happened before and since then as well.

Be realistic: NOTHING is going to change. You really think the Republicans are going to piss off tens of thousands of fat cat individuals and corporations in the tax and accounting industry? Income tax is BIG business.

I find it incredible that so many people here are skeptical of so much yet cannot see this ploy for what it is.

-A0-

Steve Forbes was hardly a serious candidate for the Presidency... he never had a chance, you know it and I know it...
As far as pissing off fat cats and corporations, have you read the fair tax documents?
There is no sales tax on wholesale goods or used goods... Business's do not purchase material at retail prices... hence they would not be taxed on those items... for the most part business would no longer face taxes.. no capital gains, etc.. it's all gone!
As far as Joe Sixpack goes.. he sees a 23% tax on retail purchase... but at the same time, the product he's purchasing, under market pressures and decreased taxation, will be considerable lower in retail price... add to that, the fact that he will get a rebate check from the government to cover a percentage of their sales tax for basic necessities..
This is a GREAT plan and if it were espoused from the Oval Office... it makes the 6 o'clock news... not as a byline mentioning some presidential hopeful nutcase...
 

Aleph Null

Membership Revoked
I think it's a great idea, for a number of reasons -- all of which constitute the reasons why it will never happen. (It also has a number of serious drawbacks, which naturally, don't usually get discussed.)

Whether I like it or not or you like it or not is irrelevant. The reality is that the Republicans are blowing smoke to try to get votes.

-A0-
 

Cabal

Pissed off Patriot
Aleph Null said:
I think it's a great idea, for a number of reasons -- all of which constitute the reasons why it will never happen. (It also has a number of serious drawbacks, which naturally, don't usually get discussed.)

Whether I like it or not or you like it or not is irrelevant. The reality is that the Republicans are blowing smoke to try to get votes.

-A0-

If this is the case and it could very well be the case, unless the .gov knows something about the current state of the welfare system, I would still cherish 4 more years under Bush vs at least 4 years of Kerry-Edwards...
 
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