[Pol] Gee! MM caught in another lie. Who would have suspected?

[Troke]

http://timblair.spleenville.com/archives/007268.php

Queensland's Tom Knox, in a letter to The Australian, points out yet another Mike Moore misrepresentation:

The movie Fahrenheit 9/11 asserts the children of US congressmen are under-represented in US forces in Iraq.


There are 300 million Americans; 130,000 US troops in Iraq; 535 congressmen and women; and at least five children of congressmen serving in Iraq.


Thirty seconds of intellectual effort shows that children of US congressmen are very over-represented in Iraq; but 30 seconds is way over the capacity of admirers of Fahrenheit 9/11.

_______________________________________________________________

It is beginning to appear that everything in that film was a lie including the words 'and' and 'the'

 

[UrX]

Name the congressmen--

1.
2.
3.
4.
5.

 

[Snipe Hunter]

Good post Troke.....

Just remember two things about liberals like moore.

If they are talking they are missleading you & .....they are breathing.......sad to say.

 

[onetimer]

1.
2.
3.
4.
5.

Ripped from other forums as this exact topic is being discussed alot.

"Sen. Tim Johnson, D-SD
Son Brooks Johnson, 31, a staff sergeant with the Army's 101st Airborne Division.

and probably (because people keep quoting two)

Rep. John Kline, R-MN
Son, Dan Kline.

other people who have children who might be sent

Rep. Todd Akin, R-MO
Rep. Duncan Hunter, R-CA
Rep. Marilyn Musgrave, R-CO
Rep. Ed Schrock, R-VA
Rep. Joe Wilson, R-SC

It is possible there are some who have not openly declared the location of their sons (or daughters) I guess. "

 

[Troke]

1.
2.
3.
4.
5

First try at Google found at least two. Do you suppose there are more?\

Early in this segment, Moore states that “only one” member of Congress has a child in Iraq. The action of the segment consists of Moore accosting Congressmen to try to convince them to have their children enlist in the military. At the end, Moore declares, “Not a single member of Congress wanted to sacrifice their child for the war in Iraq.”



Moore’s conclusion is technically true, but duplicitous. Of course no-one would want to “sacrifice” his child in any way. But the fact is, Moore's opening ("only one") and his conclusion ("not a single member") are both incorrect. Sergeant Brooks Johnson, the son of South Dakota Democratic Senator Tim Johnson, serves in the 101st Airborne Division and fought in Iraq in 2003. The son of California Republican Representative Duncan Hunter quit his job after September 11, and enlisted in the Marines; his artillery unit was deployed in the heart of insurgent territory in February 2004. Delaware Senator Joseph Biden's son Beau is on active duty; although Beau Biden has no control over he is deployed, he has not been sent to Iraq, and therefore does not "count" for Moore's purposes.



How about Cabinet members? Fahrenheit never raises the issue, because the answer would not fit Moore’s thesis. Attorney General John Ashcroft’s son is on active duty. (Fahrenheit Fact.)

 

[Watchman63]

Edit to add: While I was composing this post, the two posts previous to this were posted.

1. Sen. Tim Johnson, D-S.D
2. Rep. John Kline, R-Minn
3. Rep. Todd Akin R-Missouri
4. Rep. Duncan Hunter R-California
5. Rep. Marilyn Musgrave R-Colorado

And two more as noted in the article:
6. Rep. Ed Schrock R-Virginia
7. Rep. Joe Wilson R-South Carolina

http://web.naplesnews.com/03/04/naples/d930340a.htm

Conflict with Iraq: Some members of Congress have great personal interest in the war

Thursday, April 10, 2003

By TOM FORD, Minneapolis-St. Paul Star Tribune

WASHINGTON — Sen. Tim Johnson, D-S.D., keeps a map of Iraq in his kitchen and tries to follow events on television, knowing that any moment could bring catastrophic news.

His son Brooks, 31, is in Iraq, a staff sergeant with the Army's 101st Airborne Division.

"The families recognize, more so than anyone, the very real nature of what is happening," Johnson said. "These are not video games."

Of the 535 members of Congress, at least seven have a great personal interest: They have children in the military who already are participating in the war or could be called to do so.

They include Rep. John Kline, R-Minn., whose 32-year-old son, Dan, is training reserve units in Georgia that are about to be sent to Iraq.

"If he could go, I would say good for you ... and we'll be proud of you," said Kline, a retired Marine colonel. "But there's a percentage of me that says he's my son and I'm glad he's here."

The number of federal lawmakers with children in the military has steadily declined since the Vietnam era, and some say that's too bad.

If more members of Congress had children in the military, they'd be less likely to vote for war, said Rep. Charles Rangel, D-N.Y. He said that "the sons and daughters of the most privileged Americans are underrepresented or absent" from the military.

In January, Rangel introduced a bill to reinstate the draft, which was halted 30 years ago. His bill would require military or civilian service for all citizens ages 18 to 26.

Donald Zillman, a University of Maine law professor who has tracked the number of congressional members who've served in the military, said about 30 percent of the current lawmakers have military backgrounds.

That number has consistently dropped since 1969, when more than two-thirds of members had spent time in the military, Zillman said. He expects percentages to fall further, he said, as younger candidates win seats in Congress.

"Every Congress we are losing a Strom Thurmond, a Bob Dole, and chances are their replacements will not have had military service," he said.

Charles Moskos, a sociology professor at Northwestern University who specializes in the military, said that a decline in military service for lawmakers' kids has occurred at a similar rate. As an illustration, he noted that all the Kennedy brothers served while none of their children did.

Moskos said that around the late 1960s the upper classes got more deferments from the draft, and after the draft ended in 1973, that elite group generally continued to forgo military service.

"If we had a war in which there was really heavy casualties, and the elite children weren't serving, we'd be very disillusioned with that war," he said.

House and Senate information offices said they do not have a comprehensive list of members who are military parents.

The small group of lawmakers who've announced or confirmed that their kids are now serving includes Johnson, Kline and Republican Reps. Todd Akin of Missouri, Duncan Hunter of California, Marilyn Musgrave of Colorado, Ed Schrock of Virginia and Joe Wilson of South Carolina.

For Wilson, three of his sons currently are in the service, though only his oldest son, Alan, would likely be called up.

Wilson, who voted in October for the use of force in Iraq, said he's "bursting with pride" over his sons' service, adding that he expects them to be involved in the ongoing war on terrorism.

He said he knows the troops are being well-protected and feels "more determined" about his vote on the Iraqi conflict.

Johnson, who appears to be the only member with a child on the front lines in Iraq, said that America will win the war and, as a result, the world will "be a better place."

"Every night when we go home and live in relative comfort," he said, "I hope we keep in mind these troops who ... are sleeping in a hole in the sand two or three feet deep to protect themselves from shrapnel."

 

[snoozin]

Sergeant Brooks Johnson, the son of South Dakota Democratic Senator Tim Johnson, serves in the 101st Airborne Division and fought in Iraq in 2003. The son of California Republican Representative Duncan Hunter quit his job after September 11, and enlisted in the Marines; his artillery unit was deployed in the heart of insurgent territory in February 2004.

Ummmm, folks - he filmed that segment long before 2004. I think we can safely assume the statement was true at the time of filming, whereas it may not be factually true as of today. Let's try to stick to the facts.

 

[Troke]

Fact? MM thesis was that no Congressman would allow his kid to go to Iraq. And he badgered one Congressman thusly. And then edited the film because he got the wrong answer.

Lies including the words 'and' and 'the'.

 

[fairbanksb]

MM is a big fat idiot........It may make a good book title some day.

 

[howdeedoodee]

Democrats and their fellow travelers do not have to tell the truth because in their heart you know they mean well, especially if meaning well agrees with what you think. Sort of like "Don't confuse me with the facts and help me agree with myself by telling me a lie."

 

[LBO Grise]

The children of Democrat Congresscritters seem to be under-represented. Hmmm...

 

[Bearded Weirdo]

Ummmm, folks - he filmed that segment long before 2004. I think we can safely assume the statement was true at the time of filming, whereas it may not be factually true as of today. Let's try to stick to the facts.

I don't think we can safely assume the statement was true at the time of the filming.
I bet MM was still editing the film in February 2004, if he cared about the truth he would have edited it out. By leaving in it he was being duplicitous.

 

[bigwavedave]

I don't think we can safely assume the statement was true at the time of the filming.
I bet MM was still editing the film in February 2004, if he cared about the truth he would have edited it out. By leaving in it he was being duplicitous.

FAHRENHEIT 9/11: "Out of the 535 members of Congress, only one had an enlisted son in Iraq."

“Only four of the 535 members of Congress have children in the military; only one, Sen. Tim Johnson, D-S.D., has a child who fought in Iraq.” Kevin Horrigan, “Hired Guns,” St. Louis Post-Dispatch, May 11, 2003.

however, MM does include that the unemployment rate in Flint was 17% in January of 2004.

 

[snoozin]

however, MM does include that the unemployment rate in Flint was 17% in January of 2004.

If you recall the scene in the movie, it was warm weather in Washington, DC - MM was riding in an ice-cream truck reading the Patriot Act, and everyone was in shirt sleeves or suits - no overcoats, when he invited them to sign up their kids for the military. That means it had to be filmed in 2003 before winter really arrived, in order to be shown in Spring 2004 in Cannes.

It's easy to add a voice-over, like the Flint info, in final editing in 2004 - but not to shoot the scenes before Congress when in final production.

 

[bigwavedave]

It's easy to add a voice-over, like the Flint info, in final editing in 2004 - but not to shoot the scenes before Congress when in final production.

he could have easily added a voice-over to update this information about congressional kids in the military. imo, the criticism stands.

hey, it isn't a perfect movie. if it's detractors want to nip at the heels and around the edges in an attempt to TOTALLY discredit the film, let them have at it. it's their time to waste as they see fit. there is no denying the overall impact the film has as most of it IS accurate (whether or not it is a documentary).

 

[Troke]

hey, it isn't a perfect movie. if it's detractors want to nip at the heels and around the edges in an attempt to TOTALLY discredit the film, let them have at it. it's their time to waste as they see fit. there is no denying the overall impact the film has as most of it IS accurate (whether or not it is a documentary

Well, item after item has been show to be misleading or an outright lie. Except for the famous 'seven minutes'. Dubya did sit there for seven (7) minutes reading to the kiddies when he should have sprung to his feet and roared'

"Order the fleet to sea!

Bring the Household Regiments to Battle Alert!

Notify Parliament....ahh....sorry folks,wrong government"

Anyway, he should have done something. But then again, he has good subordinates on top of their job, why get excited and frighten the kiddies?

But as I have said before, I consider MM to be the finest craftsman of his art. I admire him greatly.

 

[bigwavedave]

well, it's as close to a national inquest as we are likely to get, Troke.

 

[bw]

"There are 300 million Americans; 130,000 US troops in Iraq; 535 congressmen and women; and at least five children of congressmen serving in Iraq. "

That's apples and oranges. You are comparing the number of individuals against the heads of households.

You gave 5 households headed by a congressperson with a child in Iraq. How many households are there in America with one or more parents? That's the number you should be comparing against.

I don't know whether congress-headed households are over- or under-represented, I'm just pointing out that you're using the wrong number.

bw

 

[Ought Six]

bwd:

"there is no denying the overall impact the film has as most of it IS accurate (whether or not it is a documentary)."

Absolutely false. David Koppel's excellent aritcle debunks just about every claim and sleazy inference that Moore made in the movie. The whole movie is just a pack of lies and false spin. Even many liberals have picked it apart and admitted that it is grossly inaccurate.

 

[Contrasaur]

I can't believe that people are still argueing whether Moore lied or not . . . which keeps him in circulation and improves his bank account.

Queensland's Tom Knox, in a letter to The Australian, points out yet another Mike Moore misrepresentation:

If the guy was not paid by Moore he should have been.

Reminds me of a strip club owners favorite PR trick. Hire somebody to protest outside your club and then call the news folks.

 

[old bear]

Those that love Bush will continue to love Bush. Those that love America will continue to hate Bush. That does not mean that they will love Kerry however, because Kerry is as much a NWO man as Bush is, or almost as much.

 

[ioujc]

Originally posted by old bear:
"Those that love America will continue to hate Bush."

What a STUPID comment.

 

[buff]

Those that love Bush will continue to love Bush. Those that love America will continue to hate Bush.

this gets a vote for the stupidest comment i've ever read on tb.....

geez


edited because i spelled "on" wrong...lol

 

[Troke]

"... Kopel's lawyerly description of Moore's claims shows the film to be a genuinely impressive accomplishment in a perverse sort of way (the way an ingenious crime is impressive)--a case study in how to convert elements that are mainly true into an impression that is entirely false--.."

As I have stated, I find MM to be the fiinest craftsman of his type. I would suggest he has no equal these days.

The ability to get a bunch of 'truths' to add up to a lie is a wondrous talent indeed.

 

[Mike 9 or 10]

Old Bear, although I have disagreed with some of your statements I have never flamed you or questioned your patriotism because I believe you are a honorable man who loves the Republic.

Thank you for the slap in the face to those of us who support President Bush.

 

[ioujc]

http://www.davekopel.org/terror/59Deceits.pdf
FAIR USE APPLICATION FOR EDUCATION AND DISCUSSION
(Highlighted items done by this poster)
Fifty-nine Deceits in Fahrenheit 911
by David Kopel
Independence Institute
13952 Denver West Parkway • Suite 400 • Golden, Colorado 80401-3119
www.IndependenceInstitute.org • 303-279-6536 • 303-279-4176 fax
If all you know is what the mainstream media tell you, then you
are living in a world of illusions. But you can’t free your mind if
you merely replace one set of manipulative illusions with another
set of manipulative illusions. Fahrenheit 9/11 is a twisted,
dishonest, paranoid, and hateful fantasy. Learn the facts, and
make up your own mind.
The list below is a summary of a much longer report, which is
available for free at www.davekopel.org. The report also discusses
many other issues about the movie.
There are lots of good reasons why people have chosen to vote
against (or for) the re-election of George Bush. And there are
lots of good reasons why patriotic Americans have decided to
oppose (or support) the war in Iraq. One thing that all the good
reasons have in common is that they are based on facts. In a
democracy, we should try to convince our fellow citizens with
facts and logical reasoning. To manipulate people with frauds
and propaganda is to attack democracy itself.
1. The Gore “victory” rally isn’t celebrating a Florida win. It
was held before the polls had even opened.
2. Like all the other networks, Fox mistakenly said that Gore
had won in Florida. The first network to retract the Florida
mistake was CBS, not Fox.
3. A 6-month study by a consortium of major newspapers
shows that Bush would have won the Florida recount under
any of the terms which Gore sought in his lawsuits.
4. Investigation by the Palm Beach Post and others shows
that race was not a reason why election officials mistakenly
disqualified some voters because they were incorrectly
thought to have felony convictions.
5. Bush’s Presidency before 9/11 was not in serious trouble.
No commentator said that he looked like a lame-duck president.
Congress had passed his #1 bill (the tax cut) and was
on the way to passing his #2 bill (the education bill). The
scene at the end of the movie in which Bush tells a rich audience
“I call you my base,” was from an October 2000 charity
fund-raiser. Both Gore and Bush spoke at the fund-raiser
and, as is the custom at the fund-raiser, made fun of themselves.
6. “In his first eight months in office before September
11th, George W. Bush was on vacation, according to the
Washington Post, forty-two percent of the time.” As the
Washington Post reported, the figure includes weekends, and
includes time in “vacation locations” such as Camp David,
where Bush was working—as when he met with Tony Blair.
7. In the golf course scene (about the middle of the movie),
Bush had just heard about a terrorist attack on Israel. He
called the press together to make a quick statement condemning
the terrorism against Israel. He was not speaking
about attacks on the United States.
8. There is no evidence that Bush did not read the Aug. 6,
2001 Presidential Daily Briefing about al Qaeda.
9. He never claimed that the title’s “vagueness” was an
excuse for not reading it.
10. The Briefing did not say “said that Osama bin Laden was
planning to attack America by hijacking airplanes.” It said
that the FBI has “not been able to corroborate” such a threat.
11. The Saudis left the U.S. only after air travel was opened
for the general public.
12. According to Richard Clarke and the September 11
Commission, Clarke personally approved the Saudi departures,
and the decision went no higher in the chain of command.
13. Moore lied to a TV reporter in claiming that Fahrenheit
discloses Clarke’s decision to the audience. Clarke called the
Saudi exit material in Fahrenheit a “mistake” by Moore.
14. Contrary to what Fahrenheit claims, the September 11
Commission found that many Saudis were asked “detailed
questions” before being allowed to leave.
15. James Bath did not invest bin Laden family money
in Bush’s energy company Arbusto. He invested his own
money.

The other 44 LIES are available on PDF here:
http://www.davekopel.org/terror/59Deceits.pdf

 

[bw]

"Those that love Bush will continue to love Bush. Those that love America will continue to hate Bush."

Gotta disagree with you there. The Shrubbery True Believers will indeed love Shrub, and it's true that they think anyone who doesn't love him must hate him. Actually, that's kind of scary because it gives some insight as to the emotional and non-rational basis of their allegiance, and explains why logica can't seem to sway them.

But if you actually hate Shrub, you're the first I've heard that from. Hating Shrub is like hating Dan Quayle - there isn't enough substance there to work up a good hatred for. Shrub is a puppet, doing what his dad's people tell him to do. Hating Shrub is a waste of energy.

Can't see that Kerry is going to be any better, by the way.

bw

 

[clem]

Ummmm, folks - he filmed that segment long before 2004. I think we can safely assume the statement was true at the time of filming, whereas it may not be factually true as of today. Let's try to stick to the facts.

When you "assume", you make an "ass" out of "u" and "me".

NOTHING Michael Moore says can be true for he is a proven liar and fraud, time and again.

 

[Ought Six]

bw:

"But if you actually hate Shrub, you're the first I've heard that from. Hating Shrub is like hating Dan Quayle - there isn't enough substance there to work up a good hatred for. Shrub is a puppet, doing what his dad's people tell him to do. Hating Shrub is a waste of energy."

Like so many folks from West Texas, GW just loves it when people mistake his poor speech for stupidity. All of his political opponents have made that same dumb mistake, and got beaten like a drum by him. GW is not dumb, but I hope all those who want to destroy him keep underestimating him like the fools that they are.

 

[Contrasaur]

bw:Like so many folks from West Texas, GW just loves it when people mistake his poor speech for stupidity.

Damn, quit telling secrets, Ought Six.

 

[milkydoo]

Old Bear, although I have disagreed with some of your statements I have never flamed you or questioned your patriotism because I believe you are a honorable man who loves the Republic.

Thank you for the slap in the face to those of us who support President Bush.

A teeny, tiny taste of what many of the anti-war, but pro-America members here endured for months with the Bush backers constant hurling of the 'Anti-American' term. Maybe you didn't toss it around, but a lot here did.

"Oppose Bush and the war, and you're anti-American and don't support the troops." Defending one's self against that kind of slander is messy and time consuming and not exactly fun.

But personally, I don't mind a little mud slinging, as long as the playing field is level.

 

[milkydoo]

Thirty seconds of intellectual effort shows that children of US congressmen are very over-represented in Iraq; but 30 seconds is way over the capacity of admirers of Fahrenheit 9/11.

A few more seconds and one might even begin to understand the logic behind a law which would force the sons and daughters of our pro war leaders to serve on the front lines.

So he's off on the numbers, but the point is still made. 51% of the vote combined with the fact that our leaders nor their children ever have to fear losing their body parts on foreign soil, (save for those who have made the voluntary commitment), is a real problem.

Our leaders live in a bubble. Even those that have held real jobs in the real world continue to espouse their support for the corrupted big government system, and engage in global "conflicts" via resolution on a whim.

 

[Troke]

Well, in da olde days, the leaders lead personally. And got killed personally. And it did not slow warfare down one damned bit.

We tried that now, all we'd have is different leaders. But still the same wars.

 

[bigwavedave]

ioujc - "11. The Saudis left the U.S. only after air travel was opened for the general public."

the author is misinformed. 9/14, airspace was reopened. some had already shuttled around the US and enroute to SA by 9/13.

like most of us, he'll hear something that supports his beliefs then goes with it. i'd rather not call it an agenda because i can't prove that. how's that, .06?