INTL NATO to hold biggest drills since Cold War with 90,000 troops

jward

passin' thru

NATO to hold biggest drills since Cold War with 90,000 troops​



TUMAK-22 NATO exercises in the Suwalki Gap

Polish military vehicles are transported during TUMAK-22 NATO exercises in an area known as the Suwalki Gap, of crucial significance to the security of the alliance's eastern flank, at a polygon in Klusy, Poland November 25, 2022. REUTERS/Kacper Pempel/File Photo Acquire Licensing Rights, opens new tab

BRUSSELS, Jan 18 (Reuters) - NATO is launching its largest exercise since the Cold War, rehearsing how U.S. troops could reinforce European allies in countries bordering Russia and on the alliance's eastern flank if a conflict were to flare up with a "near-peer" adversary.

Some 90,000 troops are due to join the Steadfast Defender 2024 drills that will run through May, the alliance's top commander Chris Cavoli said on Thursday.
More than 50 ships from aircraft carriers to destroyers will take part, as well as more than 80 fighter jets, helicopters and drones and at least 1,100 combat vehicles including 133 tanks and 533 infantry fighting vehicles, NATO said.
Cavoli said the drills would rehearse NATO's execution of its regional plans, the first defence plans the alliance has drawn up in decades, detailing how it would respond to a Russian attack.
NATO did not mention Russia by name in its announcement. But its top strategic document identifies Russia as the most significant and direct threat to NATO members' security.

"Steadfast Defender 2024 will demonstrate NATO's ability to rapidly deploy forces from North America and other parts of the alliance to reinforce the defence of Europe," NATO said.
The reinforcement will occur during a "simulated emerging conflict scenario with a near-peer adversary", Cavoli told reporters in Brussels after a two-day meeting of national chiefs of defence.

The last exercises of a similar size were Reforger - during the Cold War in 1988 with 125,000 participants - and Trident Juncture in 2018 with 50,000 participants, according to NATO.
The troops taking part in the exercises, which will involve simulations of getting personnel to Europe as well exercises on the ground, will come from NATO countries and Sweden, which hopes to join the alliance soon.
Allies signed off on the regional plans at their 2023 Vilnius summit, ending a long era in which NATO had seen no need for large-scale defence plans as Western countries fought smaller wars in Afghanistan and Iraq and felt certain post-Soviet Russia no longer posed an existential threat.

During the second part of the Steadfast Defender exercise, a special focus will be on the deployment of NATO's quick reaction force to Poland on the alliance's eastern flank.
Other major locations of the drills will be the Baltic states which are seen as most at risk from a potential Russian attack, Germany - a hub for incoming reinforcements - and countries on the fringes of the alliance such as Norway and Romania.
Reporting by Sabine Siebold and Andrew Gray; Editing by Sudip Kar-Gupta and Alison Williams
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Ragnarok

On and On, South of Heaven
Putin is starting to talk tough about the Baltics, laying the groundwork for 'future escalations' with NATO
-Vladimir Putin is starting to express his anger toward NATO nations Latvia, Estonia, and Lithuania.

-His rhetoric sounds an awful lot like his statements before Russia attacked Ukraine.

-Russia's emerging narrative toward the Baltics sets the stage for "future escalations," the ISW said.





Russian leader Vladimir Putin has been intensifying his rhetoric against the Baltic states, setting the stage for potential "future escalations" with the eastern NATO members, the Institute for Study of War said on Tuesday.

The Washington-based think tank reported that Putin on Tuesday claimed that Latvia and other Baltic nations were "simply throwing out" ethnic Russian people from their borders.

His complaint refers to changes in Latvia's immigration law that require Russians living as permanent residents in the country to pass a Latvian language test if they want to stay there. Around 1,200 Russians were identified for deportation in December because they didn't renew their residency permits under the new rules.

"You see, these are very serious things that directly affect our national security," Putin said, according to state news agency RIA Novosti.

The ISW said in a daily assessment that Putin's rhetoric "notably amplified a long-standing Kremlin effort to set information conditions for future escalations against the Baltic countries, likely as part of his wider effort to weaken NATO."

The think tank said it hasn't found any indication yet that Russia plans to attack the Baltics soon. However, the ISW warned that Putin may be laying the groundwork for "future aggressive Russian actions abroad under the pretext of protecting its 'compatriots.'"

Putin's comment on Tuesday echoes similar remarks he made about Ukraine before launching his unprovoked invasion.

One of Russia's claimed reasons for the attack was that Kyiv was committing "genocide" against ethnic Russians as it fought pro-Kremlin rebels in the Donbas, despite a lack of evidence for such a claim.

Like the Baltics, Ukraine is a former Soviet republic, and Putin has "trivialized the sovereignty" of these countries while adopting an "expansive definition of Russia's sovereignty," the ISW said.

But unlike Ukraine, the Baltic nations — Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania — are all NATO members.

Undermining their sovereignty and portraying them as bullies toward Russians would fit within Putin's ultimate goal of weakening NATO, the ISW said.

The think tank said it previously assessed that Putin's aim in invading Ukraine was to destabilize NATO instead of defending a NATO attack against Russia as he has stated.
 

Ragnarok

On and On, South of Heaven
Putin creating conditions to invade NATO-aligned Baltic states
Russian dictator Vladimir Putin continues to show that Russia is not interested in serious peace negotiations with Ukraine and remains steadfast in its aggressive intentions towards the Baltic countries, according to a new report from the Institute for the Study of War (ISW) dated Jan. 16.

Putin remains undeterred in his goals to see the complete capitulation of Ukraine and the West, the ISW noted.

“Ukrainian statehood could face a grave and irreversible impact” should the existing conditions on the battlefield persist, said Putin during a meeting with Russian municipal heads on Jan.16.

Putin has intensified long-standing Kremlin efforts to create an informational basis for future escalation against the Baltic countries, likely as part of his broader attempts to weaken NATO, ISW said.

Latvia and other Baltic countries are ‘throwing out [ethnic] Russians,” and this “directly affects [Russia's] security,” Putin claimed on Jan. 16.

Recent changes to Latvia's immigration laws mean that Russian citizens' permanent residency permits were invalidated in September 2023. Russians had to undergo the general procedure for obtaining EU permanent resident status in Latvia, including passing a Latvian language exam by Nov. 30, 2023.

Latvia's Citizenship and Migration Affairs Office announced in December 2023 that it would deport about 1,200 Russian citizens who did not apply for a new residence permit by the deadline.

Putin has long used an “expanded” definition of Russian sovereignty and downplayed the sovereignty of states that were once Soviet republics, ISW said. Moscow consistently claims the supposed right to protect its “compatriots abroad,” including ethnic Russians and Russian speakers outside Russia's borders.

There are no signs right now that a Russian attack against the Baltic countries is inevitable or likely, ISW said, adding that Putin may be creating the conditions for Russia's future aggressive actions abroad under the guise of protecting “compatriots.”

Putin threatened Finland in mid-December 2023 and reiterated statements demonstrating his desire to achieve changes in NATO that would dismantle the Alliance.

Putin invaded Ukraine in 2022 not to protect Russia from NATO threats but to weaken and ultimately destroy NATO, a goal he continues to pursue, the ISW reported earlier.

The Kremlin and Kremlin-affiliated actors have recently promoted information operations and conducted hybrid warfare tactics aimed at destabilizing NATO and may now be setting information conditions for possible future aggressive Russian actions against NATO countries and their neighbors, ISW concluded.
 

Ragnarok

On and On, South of Heaven
Will a war between Russia and NATO start in February? Here's how it could happen
NATO has already failed the test of Putin's ultimatum once, and it was February 24.

The shooting down of Russian planes over the Sea of Azov is a headline story, but it is hard to say whether it will have any impact on Putin, as Ukrainians hope. In addition, the Russian public is dispersing information that it was they who shot down the planes, and that the "friend or foe" system did not work. This is nothing new. Do you remember the story of the Moskva cruiser? It is impossible to admit that Ukraine can do such things because it is humiliating for them. But at the same time, again, in trying to cover up one place, you reveal another. That is, if it is your own air defense system that shoots down an airplane, this particular instance of it is absurd. It's an aircraft that was supposed to coordinate the work of the same air defense system. So it turns out that the A-50, or the one that replaced it, the Il-22, targeted the aircraft and called the fire on itself? This is complete nonsense.

The other day, the German newspaper Bild wrote that the Bundeswehr is preparing for a hybrid Russian attack on NATO's eastern flank in February. Bild reported about this with reference to a secret Bundeswehr document. We remember that Bild is a tabloid. But we must thank Bild for once again drawing attention to such an important issue as the possibility of a direct military clash between NATO and the Russian Federation. Why do I say this?

Such occasions have already appeared from time to time. Moreover, it is a fairly routine procedure when the military and politicians develop various scenarios and war games, which form the basis for specific planning. This is another example. I would like to mention a book by retired British General Richard Shirreff, written in 2016, which lays out a scenario of how a war between NATO and Russia could take place in fiction. After he had worked for many years in very high positions and retired, he attempted to fictionalize his experience.

So, let's again define the difference between a scenario and a forecast.

The fact that the date of February was chosen should not be taken as a forecast, so I will not spend any more time explaining the connection between the elections and other events. But again, if we talk about the value of this scenario, in my opinion, our Western partners still lack a more realistic perception of the existing threats. They proceed from the classical approach that this possible war, a clash between NATO and Russia, will follow the same patterns that Putin used against Ukraine, which is a rather grave mistake. Second, the war between Russia and NATO is already underway. De facto, it is in a hybrid plane. This is not only the cyber plane, but also the information space, so the war is already underway. Whether it goes into a hot phase will depend to a large extent on how realistically these threats are assessed and how well this range of possible scenarios is worked out. The scenario proposed by Bild, in my opinion, is unlikely. Although, of course, it cannot be ruled out.

So what is the likelihood that the Russian Federation will go to direct war with NATO, and what measures are the Allies currently taking to protect themselves from such interference? Poland, the Baltic states, Finland, and also Sweden, although it is not yet a NATO member - these countries have a fairly realistic understanding of what could happen. From my experience with my Baltic and Polish colleagues, they are taking concrete, practical steps and have done so before. If we talk about NATO in general, I don't think that, as I said, there is a complete understanding of how Russia can defeat them.

If we're talking about conventional warfare, Russia has zero chance of holding out for a few hours or a few days if full American power is utilized. Therefore, no matter how stupid and unpredictable the Russians are, they understand this and will not do it. What Russia can do, and where NATO's weakness lies, is to take them, figuratively speaking, "for a ride." They issued an ultimatum before the full-scale invasion. We all know how NATO reacted to this. Frankly, the reaction was weak, and it gave Putin confidence that NATO would do nothing if he invaded Ukraine. So, once again, NATO has failed this test.

What will happen next? I don't want to be a prophet, but it will most likely be something similar. Russia will, at some point, use its strategy of escalation for the sake of de-escalation, and NATO will blink. If Russia threatens with nuclear weapons, let alone, God forbid, makes a demonstrative strike (and we have a good idea where that might be), I am far from convinced that NATO will not back down for the sake of de-escalation, as we have seen, at least during the Biden administration.

The sooner Ukraine can get the support that will allow it to inflict a convincing military defeat on Russia, the lesser the threat to NATO countries that Russia will embark on another such adventure. Russia, as I said, is testing NATO's resolve. This is where the real test comes in. The scenarios Bild writes about are still in the theoretical realm, but here is a practical test.

If NATO now demonstrates the determination that will finally convince Russia that it will not achieve its goals in Ukraine, it is logical (I am not saying that it is 100%) that the Russian leadership will understand that if NATO is so strongly supporting Ukraine, then no one should have any questions about NATO's determination if it affects the territory of NATO countries-the Baltic states, Poland, anyone. That is, NATO now has a chance to prevent future Russian aggression against NATO countries at the expense of Ukraine.

No matter what they say, the arguments why Ukraine should not be admitted to NATO right now are just an attempt to justify it. Just like the infamous Budapest Memorandum. It would be used for its intended purpose if they wanted to use it. If they want to call it an "excuse," they can find the right word.

In this situation, the problem is not even what Article 5 says and how we interpret it. The problem is that there is no leadership. Even if the Alliance, especially the United States, were to be led by a politician of Churchill's or at least Boris Johnson's stature, you must take risks. Then everything would be different. Today's leaders, those on whom such decisions mainly depend, are incapable of handling such steps - of escalating relations with Russia, and Russia will definitely fight back. There are no such leaders now. We have what we have.
 

Housecarl

On TB every waking moment
Yet poorly armed African rebels beat their ass regularly.

Only because of the ROE the US/NATO/West choose to limit themselves to; same goes for Iraq and Afghanistan. There's "managing a threat" and "elimiating a threat", they aren't the same thing.

If the crapnado touches down between NATO and Russia, we'll be lucky if it stays to WW2 Western Front "rules" and not devolve to either those of the Eastern Front or the Pacific War.
 

FireDance

TB Fanatic
See, I THINK if I were Putin, I’d just roll my eyes. I’m sorry. This is NOT what should be going on, yet I am having a desperately difficult time attempting to take it seriously. Not sure why, because it’s a great way to win a stupid prize. Or maybe because it doesn’t exist anymore. Not really.
 

jward

passin' thru
I'd thought o' the business end o' the doo-dad I wear to keep my hair up, which was plenty bad nuff.
..n I want extra credit points, coz I knew all those implements by name : )~
It all matters whether you're "poking" the bear with a stick or a glaive/naginata/guan dao.....
 

Scrapman

Veteran Member
Whats wrong , Ukraine thread not getting enough attention. You people are like listening to a broken record.
 

Infoscout

The Dude Abides
I doubt very seriously the Putin is going to invade the Baltics in February, he can’t even “invade” Ukraine correctly. More than likely, there will be an incident with Belorussia, and NATO goes in to get their nuclear stockpile, and solidify control of that part of the continent, NATO has built up the offensive capability while whining about defense.
 

Groucho

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Who's the bone head who thought it would be a good idea to put 90,000 troops and equipment next to Russia while she's at war with the ukes? The damned Russians have always been paranoid since they always seem to get run over by the feisty Europeans. It's a history thing with them.

Lately I wonder if we're not the bad guys. Stupid, for sure. We're going to pay a dear price regardless.
 

desertvet2

Veteran Member
We should let Europe do Europe....

We separated from all of their bs a long time ago, yet, somehow....we are drug along in their wacky stuff..

We have our own HUGE FRICKEN problem with our own borders and Trojan horse scumbags in our structures of power.

If we don't sort out our own home, why should we be picking around with someone else's yard work?
 

Illini Warrior

Illini Warrior
Putin is waiting on China to fire up the Asian Rim - maybe get Iran fired up using even more of its terrorist allies - lots of talking with Venezuela >>> if the US is divided up into assisting or fighting in several theaters at the same time - Putin could push out from Ukraine and do his intended end run thru the Scanda countries .....
 

Housecarl

On TB every waking moment
Putin is waiting on China to fire up the Asian Rim - maybe get Iran fired up using even more of its terrorist allies - lots of talking with Venezuela >>> if the US is divided up into assisting or fighting in several theaters at the same time - Putin could push out from Ukraine and do his intended end run thru the Scanda countries .....

The assumption being that such a dust up would only involve the CCP, Tehran and the Norks and that whomever is behind the curtain wouldn't decide to turn over all the tables with a bright light and be done with it.
 

Mark D

Now running for Emperor.
Putin is waiting on China to fire up the Asian Rim - maybe get Iran fired up using even more of its terrorist allies - lots of talking with Venezuela >>> if the US is divided up into assisting or fighting in several theaters at the same time - Putin could push out from Ukraine and do his intended end run thru the Scanda countries .....
Russia can barely cope with a third-rate Uke military; they're NOT going to sweep across the Western front and "run thru" anybody.
 
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