BB said:
. BB=Bold, Rob italic and normal text
<I>How do you justify your war and still march against abortion when they both kill pregnant women.</I>
<B>Huh? This question makes no sense to me. I march against abortion because it CAN kill pregnant women and always kills the unborn.</B>
Makes no sense? We have already established that war kills innocent people. Do you think that the fire bomb of Tokyo that killed 100 thousand people in one night missed pregnant women? Did you think the B52 bombing of the first Iraq war missed innocent people? EVERY war kills innocent people. Read some history. Also go back and read my posts that you didn’t answer the questions I posed to you. That you avoided.
<B>I would march against any war that didn't fight a "just war", which means doing everything to avoid killing innocent people and non-military targets.</B>
“Just war”? Just by your subjective perceptions. The people who burned innocent women at the stake in the Inquisition thought they were fighting a ‘just war’ against ‘evil’. The genocide that destroyed the Native American race was fought by individuals who thought it was their “‘christian’ right” to kill those people. That it was a ‘just war’. Again be careful what you call ‘evil’ and ‘just’.
<I>I think Christ came to clarify and you still have not shown where he killed anyone and as much as you would like to draw a correlation between Christ and God you have not shown where he gave you the right to judge in his name and kill anyone. What we know is that he preached non-violence.</I>
<B>Yes, He did come to clarify the difference between personal non-violence and a nation's right to fight a just war.</B>
Christ never said anything about killing anyone. Now you want to twist what Christ said to fit your subjective evaluations of right and wrong. Again, maybe you should let Christ confront ‘evil’. You’re not equipped to do deal with it.
<B>If you don't think Christ did not kill anyone than you do not have a correct doctrine of Christ who Christians believe was the God of the OT.</B>
Where are you going now? You can’t justify your killing through Christ so now you want to draw a correlation between the killing of the old testament with Christ. Why are you calling yourself a ‘christian’? You either follow Christ or you don’t. Make up your mind.
<B>You are right that he didn't give me the right to kill anyone but he has given the right to America to go to war to protect its citizens.</B>
Talk about not making sense.
OK. If he didn’t give you the right to kill anyone then how do you go to war which kills masses of people including masses of innocent people. What do you think B52 bombs are selective?
<B>Now, please explain what Jesus meant in this verse He spoke to disciples before His death and resurrection. ....
Luke 22:35 Then Jesus asked them, "When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?" "Nothing," they answered. 36He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and
if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one."... So why did He tell them to buy a sword if it wasn't for self-defense?</B>
OK, how many of his apostles sold their cloaks, bought swords and killed people?
<I> We are never free when that freedom is contingent on the control or destruction of another individual or a society of individuals as history has proven time and time again. Freedom comes from within the individual not the society. Societies are amoral and if you wish to cling to the power of the political system then you must accept the genocide of the Native American through ‘Manifest Destiny’ where this country thought it was their God given right to the land and the destruction they created to obtain it. You can’t look at the horror of WW2 Germany and dismiss US horrors. Genocide is genocide, horror is horror and dropping a bomb on 100 thousand innocent people is horror. Again, do you want to justify this through your Biblical interpretation? Because if you do then we must examine the morality of your thinking, your system and your book.</I>
<B>I don't accept what our nation did to the Indians. I don't believe that every war that America enters is necessarily correct and I respect those who oppose our war in Viet Nam and Iraq. A nation's leaders need to be held accountable for their decisions to go to war.</B>
Ok ,now you want to select your wars. Now we’re back to your subjective justification. Now we’re back to your subjective ‘evil’. Now you have to accept the Inquisition because you believe in killing and we have no way of knowing when you would have made the same mistake that caused those atrocities. We don’t know how you would have acted if you had been alive then or if you had lived in WW2 Germany because those people were acting on the same nationalism you act on and let’s face it they weren’t Zoroastrians they were ‘christians’ just like you.
<B>Concerning WW2, I believe it was proper for America to go to war as long as it went to war according to the Geneva Convention. I believe war crimes should be punished. I don't have a problem with dropping the Atom bomb. It ended the war and prevented more deaths than those bombs caused.</B>
Have you studied any history? Maybe you should go back and read the reasons for WW1 and WW2. The depressions and labor strikes. No one gave a fiddle about the Jews certainly not FDR. His ‘New Deal’ wasn’t bringing the country out of the depression fast enough but the war did.
We were attacked at Pearl Harbor. Why were we attacked?
Bob Mc Namara, JFK’s and LBJ’s sec. of defense said,” If we had lost the war we would have been tried for war crimes.” Winners don’t get tried only losers.
You don’t have a problem with the A bomb? We killed 100 thousand innocent people instantly. Men, women, pregnant women and children. What about those innocent pregnant women that were killed. You don’t have a problem with that? Then you must be for abortion. At this point I think you’re very confused about your morality.
So when is it moral and not moral to kill pregnant women? When your opinion dictates it is?
<B>Since you call the Bible "your book" I assume that it is not your book and that you are not a Christian. That means you do not have the Holy Spirit and cannot understand spiritual things including the Bible. I doubt we will ever come to an understanding of "just war" if you are not a born-again believer. I don't say this to be mean or unkind. I'm just stating the fact that the Holy Spirit is a Requirement to understanding God, Christ and the Bible.</B>
Rubbish.
First, you say no one can get to heaven unless they are a born again christian and accept your system. This thinking is not new. Pope Boniface the VIII declared in 1302 his Bull “Unam Sanctam” which said “every human creature was subject to the Roman Pontiff” and there was no salvation outside the Roman Church. Sound familiar? This “closed minded” thinking brought about the ‘Great Schism’.
I don’t have the Holy Spirit? Am I the one supporting killing? Am I the one calling people who disagree with me ‘evil’.
I can’t “understand spiritual things” because I don’t accept your premise of morality and the system you use to defend it. Which brings us to ‘new age’. My thinking is a product of many religions and philosophers. I would never tell anyone that they can’t reach heaven unless they adapt my beliefs but this is what you are saying . As far as the ‘new age’, again maybe you should do some reading. The Buddha and Lao Tse were 500 years before Christ, Plato 400 years. Christianity is the ‘new age’ boy on the block and if we look at 1520 when Pope Leo X excommunicated Martin Luther. The Christians are the baby on the block.
There is no such thing as a “just war”. War is a failure of man to understand what Christ, the Buddha, Krishna and Lao Tse taught. War is a failure of morality and a failure of compassion. Christ didn’t do it and nothing you have shown proves he did.
<I>Again, I think the Bible is filled with incongruities and distortions by men who have used it throughout history for their own power. Christ came to reestablish the truth and his actions were decidedly different.
In either case God did not give you the authority to judge or kill in his name.</I>
<B>Men may have used the Bible for their own purposes but I find no incongruities or distortions in it like you do. You obviously don't believe in the inspiration of the Bible which explains why you don't have a balanced view of non-violence.</B>
You’re right my view is that killing is wrong and it’s based on years of research and introspection. It’s morally wrong no matter who does it or how they wish to justify it.
<B>Exactly what truth did Christ come to reestablish? He did model personal holiness and non-violence BUT that didn't apply to the state's right to wield the sword against evildoers.</B>
What?
Now you’re agreeing that Christ came as a model of holiness and non-violence which I establish several posts ago. So are you a Christian or not? Maybe you want to rethink what you are.