GUNS/RLTD Lefty Magazine-fed 308 wanted, please help ID options (H&K, RRA, ???)

Dreamer

Veteran Member
I'm looking to fill in the gaps, and I would really like to get a magazine-fed 308. Thing is, I'm very left-eyed and the compromises of using a righty rifle negate the benefits of this platform. I'll deal with the spent brass, but I don't want to have to break my entire hold and form to work the gun. So far, I'm only aware of the H&K MR762A1 and the Rock River Arms LAR-10 (8?) having even a nod to lefties.

The H&K MR762A1 (civie HK416/417) has "Ambidextrous operating controls are standard on the MR762A1, including a convertible charging handle and an ambidextrous selector lever."

The RRA apparently has ambidextrous mag and bolt releases.

Am I missing anything else?

I am competent in standard righty configurations, but if I am going to get my own setup I want to be more than competent. Money is not the #1 concern, and I would rather be aware of the options that run into multi thousand dollar range (H&K) than not be aware of them. If a pricey option is the way to go, I'll see if I can make it work.
 

Publius

TB Fanatic
FIY For Any Interested

There are a number of guns made just for left handed people and the few that do take clips the clips are the same, but some of the internal parts and receiver are not and same said for the stocks on many of the left handed firearms.

I'm not that familiar with the rifle you're wanting to know more about and from experience I find most autoloading guns with a side ejection port on the right hand side to offer problems for us lefties like the gas from the propellent will sometimes drift into you eye and this gas will dry your eye out on the spot (like fine sawdust) and wearing shooting glasses is a big help with avoiding this and oddly I have not had this problem with any leaver guns and I think it has more to do with the nature of the beast and the way its used and the time it takes to cycle the action.

Now with many of the bolt action guns my biggest problem is the butt-stock and the roll over they carve into them just for right handed people and its just a matter of finding one with a strate comb, with shotguns I have not found this to be a problem.
 

OldArcher

Has No Life - Lives on TB
I'm looking to fill in the gaps, and I would really like to get a magazine-fed 308. Thing is, I'm very left-eyed and the compromises of using a righty rifle negate the benefits of this platform. I'll deal with the spent brass, but I don't want to have to break my entire hold and form to work the gun. So far, I'm only aware of the H&K MR762A1 and the Rock River Arms LAR-10 (8?) having even a nod to lefties.

The H&K MR762A1 (civie HK416/417) has "Ambidextrous operating controls are standard on the MR762A1, including a convertible charging handle and an ambidextrous selector lever."

The RRA apparently has ambidextrous mag and bolt releases.

Am I missing anything else?

I am competent in standard righty configurations, but if I am going to get my own setup I want to be more than competent. Money is not the #1 concern, and I would rather be aware of the options that run into multi thousand dollar range (H&K) than not be aware of them. If a pricey option is the way to go, I'll see if I can make it work.

Up until nine years ago, I was right handed, right eye dominant. One day, I went to the range, and suddenly, couldn't hit a barn, from the inside... Still right handed, my weaker, right hand eye, became no longer dominant. Man, that was a shock... I've always been a shooter, often times scoring Expert. As I said, suddenly, the only safe place would have been behind me...

I learned several things from the experience, and I'll share a couple with you here...

When shooting prone, with a bipod, I now shoot left handed, and when using a bolt action rifle, operate the bolt with my right hand. I'm now, much faster, and more accurate than ever before. I wouldn't trade that position for all the tea in China... When using one of my SA MBRs, I use a nylon brass catcher. No problems with brass flying anywhere near my head or face. If my primary optics are rendered inoperative, I have EOTech red dot sights for back-ups, amongst others. Having a weapon that ejects to the left, leaves one with Stag Arms, if one wants an MBR, w/detachable magazines. They're good, don't say they're not, but having a weapon that others will be unfamiliar with, let alone a different bolt face and extractor, could be not only confusing, but a logistical nightmare.. Buy several spares...

With changing of dominance in one's eyes, especially handguns, use both eyes open, and when going beyond 7 yards, squint your right eye, going with primary focus through the left eye... You'll need to change your stance, as making the Isosceles your best friend will bring better, more reliable accuracy... That's my story, and I'm sticking with it... ;-)

Having one's eyes change dominance is not unusual. Making the proper adjustments just makes sense, and could be, a life saver...

OA, out...

P.S. If you shoot left handed, DO NOT SHOOT BULLPUPS! Getting hot brass slammed into your face HURTS!

oa, out...
 

Brutus

Membership Revoked
I'm looking to fill in the gaps, and I would really like to get a magazine-fed 308. Thing is, I'm very left-eyed and the compromises of using a righty rifle negate the benefits of this platform. I'll deal with the spent brass, but I don't want to have to break my entire hold and form to work the gun. So far, I'm only aware of the H&K MR762A1 and the Rock River Arms LAR-10 (8?) having even a nod to lefties.

The H&K MR762A1 (civie HK416/417) has "Ambidextrous operating controls are standard on the MR762A1, including a convertible charging handle and an ambidextrous selector lever."

The RRA apparently has ambidextrous mag and bolt releases.

Am I missing anything else?

I am competent in standard righty configurations, but if I am going to get my own setup I want to be more than competent. Money is not the #1 concern, and I would rather be aware of the options that run into multi thousand dollar range (H&K) than not be aware of them. If a pricey option is the way to go, I'll see if I can make it work.

I don't know of any of the manufacturers who make a truly left-handed .308 AR rifle.

Stag Arms makes lefty AR's in .223, but I don't think they offer one in .308.

Personally, I wouldn't worry about it. I shoot righty AR's all the time and I'm a pure lefty. You work the controls a bit different, but it's not any major handicap. I've noticed at the range when firing a rapid fire string in a match with an AR that I can change mags as fast or faster than right-handed folks.

When it comes to modern bolt guns, I buy lefties. Have two Rugers -- a 7mm mag M-77 and a .308 M-77.

When it comes to semi-autos I don't worry about it.

:shr:
 

Dozdoats

On TB every waking moment
Kel-Tec RFB?
=========

http://www.americanrifleman.org/ArticlePage.aspx?id=1972&cid=4

20091030102134-w6287tar-4591_ms.jpg



Kel-Tec RFB Carbine
A bullpup for both right- and left-handed shooters.
By NRA Staff

Although bullpup rifles have many positive attributes, most are, by the nature of the design, poorly suited for ambidextrous use. Their actions, located in the buttstock area, usually necessitate ejection of fired brass near the shooter’s face. Kel-Tec, a company known for innovative designs, recently developed a unique solution to this issue with its RFB, which stands for Rifle Forward ejection Bullpup.

The short-stroke gas-piston-operated .308 Win. RFB is part of an exclusive group of forward-ejection bullpups, which include the FN F2000 and the Kalashnikov-based A-91. What sets the RFB apart, however, is its completely ambidextrous nature and its .308 Win. chambering

We received an RFB Carbine variant for testing, which features a scant overall length of 27 1/2 inches and an empty weight of 8 pounds, 9 ounces. Simply put, this is an astoundingly compact .308 Win. rifle.

The RFB features a full set of ambidextrous controls, from dual safety levers located above its pistol grip to the dual action release levers on the rear sides of its magazine well, to the paddle-style magazine release at the rear of the well. Also, the RFB’s reciprocating charging handle can be easily reversed for right- or left-handed use.
Despite its short overall length, the RFB Carbine features an 18-inch barrel of Parkerized 4140 chrome molybdenum steel. It is chrome-lined for durability and topped off with an A2-style compensator set on 5/8-inch-24 TPI threads at the muzzle.

The RFB makes extensive use of polymers in its construction. The most prominent example is the grip, a two-piece assembly that includes the pistol grip and spans back to the magazine well. Forward of that is the two-piece handguard assembly that features a Schnabel-type protrusion at its front to help keep the support hand from slipping in front of the muzzle.

The cheekweld portion of the rifle, termed the “top cover,” is manufactured from 4130 sheet steel. The Parkerized top cover measures 13 1/4 inches in length and covers the RFB’s large, 14 1/4-inch-long bolt carrier assembly. Attached to the rear portion of the top cover is the polymer buttstock assembly, which features a 1/2-inch-thick recoil pad and a short strip of Picatinny rail on its toe. A 9 3/4-inch-long strip of aluminum Picatinny rail is mounted on the forward portion of the top cover.

Kel-Tec designed the RFB to accept the affordable and readily available FAL magazine. In addition, the RFB also features a tilting bolt locking system quite reminiscent of the FAL’s.

The RFB’s 4140 steel bolt has a lug on its rear. As the bolt tilts down into battery, the lug locks into a recess in the Parkerized 4140 steel receiver, which is housed inside the buttstock area of the rifle.

Dual camming extractors on the bolt tilt the fired case upward at a 12- to 15-degree angle as it moves rearward. On the forward stroke of the bolt, the case is pushed up onto a ramp, bringing it into alignment with the ejection chute located above the barrel. The bolt’s forward momentum propels the case into and often directly through the chute. The chute mates to an ejection port located on the left front face of the gas block in the forward portion of the handguard.

The RFB’s short-stroke gas-piston assembly is just to the right of the ejection port on the gas block, and includes a removable 4140 steel gas piston and a grooved, round adjustment dial. The system is plated to resist corrosion and with its 32 settings is finely adjustable. As gas is tapped off the bore, the piston moves rearward, striking the forward face of the long bolt carrier assembly and thus cycling the action.

We fitted the RFB with an Aimpoint CompM4s and 3X Magnifier and shot it with a selection of .308 Win. ammunition. Perceived recoil was reasonably mild and accuracy proved to be quite good.

There were no malfunctions during the testing. Because spent cases were simply inserted into the rear of the chute, they were ejected erratically. Sometimes one shot resulted in one ejected fired case, then no cases were ejected for a few shots, and then three or four were ejected at one time as the chute filled. This had no effect on functioning.

The steel top cover became hot after prolonged shooting, and a tight cheekweld resulted in sore faces after extended shooting sessions. Another point of note is that the only way to check the condition of the RFB’s chamber is to remove the magazine, retract the action and look up into the open magazine well. A loaded-chamber indicator would be a welcome addition.

As with most Kel-Tecs, the RFB stands apart from its competitors. It is a compact, handy and powerful .308 Win. bullpup carbine that can be easily employed by both left- and right-handed users.

Manufacturer: Kel-Tec CNC Industries, Inc.; (321) 631-0068; Kel-tec-cnc.com
Caliber: 7.62x51 mm (.308 Win.)
Action Type: Gas-operated, semi-automatic center-fire rifle
Receiver: 4140 steel, Parkerized
Barrel: 18", 4140 steel, Parkerized
Rifling: Six-groove, 1:11.25" RH twist
Magazine: FAL detachable box
Sights: No iron sights, Picatinny rail
Trigger Pull: Single-stage, 7 lbs., 8 ozs.
Stock: Length of pull, 14½"; drop at heel, 1¾"; drop at comb, 1¾"
Overall Length: 27½"
Weight: 8 lbs., 9 ozs.
Accessories: Trigger lock, nylon sling, owner’s manual
Suggested Retail Price: $1,880
 

OldArcher

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Kel-Tec RFB?
=========

http://www.americanrifleman.org/ArticlePage.aspx?id=1972&cid=4

20091030102134-w6287tar-4591_ms.jpg



Kel-Tec RFB Carbine
A bullpup for both right- and left-handed shooters.
By NRA Staff

Although bullpup rifles have many positive attributes, most are, by the nature of the design, poorly suited for ambidextrous use. Their actions, located in the buttstock area, usually necessitate ejection of fired brass near the shooter’s face. Kel-Tec, a company known for innovative designs, recently developed a unique solution to this issue with its RFB, which stands for Rifle Forward ejection Bullpup.

The short-stroke gas-piston-operated .308 Win. RFB is part of an exclusive group of forward-ejection bullpups, which include the FN F2000 and the Kalashnikov-based A-91. What sets the RFB apart, however, is its completely ambidextrous nature and its .308 Win. chambering

We received an RFB Carbine variant for testing, which features a scant overall length of 27 1/2 inches and an empty weight of 8 pounds, 9 ounces. Simply put, this is an astoundingly compact .308 Win. rifle.

The RFB features a full set of ambidextrous controls, from dual safety levers located above its pistol grip to the dual action release levers on the rear sides of its magazine well, to the paddle-style magazine release at the rear of the well. Also, the RFB’s reciprocating charging handle can be easily reversed for right- or left-handed use.
Despite its short overall length, the RFB Carbine features an 18-inch barrel of Parkerized 4140 chrome molybdenum steel. It is chrome-lined for durability and topped off with an A2-style compensator set on 5/8-inch-24 TPI threads at the muzzle.

The RFB makes extensive use of polymers in its construction. The most prominent example is the grip, a two-piece assembly that includes the pistol grip and spans back to the magazine well. Forward of that is the two-piece handguard assembly that features a Schnabel-type protrusion at its front to help keep the support hand from slipping in front of the muzzle.

The cheekweld portion of the rifle, termed the “top cover,” is manufactured from 4130 sheet steel. The Parkerized top cover measures 13 1/4 inches in length and covers the RFB’s large, 14 1/4-inch-long bolt carrier assembly. Attached to the rear portion of the top cover is the polymer buttstock assembly, which features a 1/2-inch-thick recoil pad and a short strip of Picatinny rail on its toe. A 9 3/4-inch-long strip of aluminum Picatinny rail is mounted on the forward portion of the top cover.

Kel-Tec designed the RFB to accept the affordable and readily available FAL magazine. In addition, the RFB also features a tilting bolt locking system quite reminiscent of the FAL’s.

The RFB’s 4140 steel bolt has a lug on its rear. As the bolt tilts down into battery, the lug locks into a recess in the Parkerized 4140 steel receiver, which is housed inside the buttstock area of the rifle.

Dual camming extractors on the bolt tilt the fired case upward at a 12- to 15-degree angle as it moves rearward. On the forward stroke of the bolt, the case is pushed up onto a ramp, bringing it into alignment with the ejection chute located above the barrel. The bolt’s forward momentum propels the case into and often directly through the chute. The chute mates to an ejection port located on the left front face of the gas block in the forward portion of the handguard.

The RFB’s short-stroke gas-piston assembly is just to the right of the ejection port on the gas block, and includes a removable 4140 steel gas piston and a grooved, round adjustment dial. The system is plated to resist corrosion and with its 32 settings is finely adjustable. As gas is tapped off the bore, the piston moves rearward, striking the forward face of the long bolt carrier assembly and thus cycling the action.

We fitted the RFB with an Aimpoint CompM4s and 3X Magnifier and shot it with a selection of .308 Win. ammunition. Perceived recoil was reasonably mild and accuracy proved to be quite good.

There were no malfunctions during the testing. Because spent cases were simply inserted into the rear of the chute, they were ejected erratically. Sometimes one shot resulted in one ejected fired case, then no cases were ejected for a few shots, and then three or four were ejected at one time as the chute filled. This had no effect on functioning.

The steel top cover became hot after prolonged shooting, and a tight cheekweld resulted in sore faces after extended shooting sessions. Another point of note is that the only way to check the condition of the RFB’s chamber is to remove the magazine, retract the action and look up into the open magazine well. A loaded-chamber indicator would be a welcome addition.

As with most Kel-Tecs, the RFB stands apart from its competitors. It is a compact, handy and powerful .308 Win. bullpup carbine that can be easily employed by both left- and right-handed users.

Manufacturer: Kel-Tec CNC Industries, Inc.; (321) 631-0068; Kel-tec-cnc.com
Caliber: 7.62x51 mm (.308 Win.)
Action Type: Gas-operated, semi-automatic center-fire rifle
Receiver: 4140 steel, Parkerized
Barrel: 18", 4140 steel, Parkerized
Rifling: Six-groove, 1:11.25" RH twist
Magazine: FAL detachable box
Sights: No iron sights, Picatinny rail
Trigger Pull: Single-stage, 7 lbs., 8 ozs.
Stock: Length of pull, 14½"; drop at heel, 1¾"; drop at comb, 1¾"
Overall Length: 27½"
Weight: 8 lbs., 9 ozs.
Accessories: Trigger lock, nylon sling, owner’s manual
Suggested Retail Price: $1,880

Interesting... VERY Interesting... Without a known real world track record, that's a mighty high price to heft... Wonder what the MTBF on major/crucial parts is? IF it were battle proven, you couldn't keep them on any shelves... We'll have to wait and see, but I wish them well...

Good catch, Dozdoats! I didn't even know there was such a critter! Thanks!

OA, out...
 

Dreamer

Veteran Member
Thank you Publius, Old Archer, Brutus, and Dozdoats for your comments and suggestions.

Publius, thanks for the reminder that right to left is not just an easy switch and that a lot of design, parts, and good engineering are needed for a good solution. If I ever lived in fiction SHTF land with a solid group and a well supplied, commonly based weapons platforms then the more unique parts would be a bigger issue. Well, assuming the characters could agree on which 308 semiauto option in the first place. Not much standardization in that world, so for parts one might not be too much worse off than others with a more standard choice. I have a very nice lefty bolt action, so I am pretty set there.

Old Archer, that must have been some surprise! Thanks for the recommendation on the nylon brass catcher – saves the face and the pricey brass. I started with handguns before I knew I was left-eye dominant, so I am competent for casual or emergency use with my right hand. I've focused all of my left hand practice, and training for more competition-type accuracy, with my daily carry. The tradeoffs to shooting lefty with wheelguns and the like just isn't worth it, and as you said at basic ranges both eyes open works quite well.

Brutus, I'll check out Stag and see if it is an option in 308. Working the controls on an AR-15 in 223 is doable for me, but the extra heft of a 308 really changes the game for me. I can work them (308) cross-handed when supported, but not unsupported.

Dozdoats, that Keltec sounds intriguing. I'll have to look into rifles with forward ejection in general, since that seems like a huge leap to me. It could be fantastic, but considering that the $1,800 pricetag mans there probably aren't that many out there racking up real world range time I'm thinking it probably has all the normal early adopter risks. Lots of homework required!

Thanks again for the comments and suggestions. I'll look into these, and look forward to any other recommendations or advice.
 

Dozdoats

On TB every waking moment

Dreamer

Veteran Member
Thanks Dozdoats! As I said, I knew little about RFB so plan to look into it. Great to hear it has been around for a little while and looks good. I'll look at that catalog as well. Thank you!
 

Easy G

Senior Member
It is not in .308 but the (Steyr Aug Clone) MSAR E4 is easily converted to true left handed operation. They also offer an aftermarket trigger pack and bolt that uses all AR components. They also utilize standard AR magazines as well. They are very well made and the customer service is excellent. Take a look at ratworx usa's web site.

http://www.ratworxusa.com/pagHome.aspx
 

rdg6pk

Contributing Member
I am left handed and left eye dominant and have shot right handed rifles all my life. Ejection from AR's is not an issues. Just takes getting used to. (Also lefty rifles usually get priced higher) Just sayin.
 

end game

Veteran Member
Big money, Galil ARM or AR, Valmet 78. Reasonable money, VEPR or Saiga. Maybe an M1A would work since the charging handle is on the right.
 

JUNGLEBILL

Contributing Member
I think both Remington and Savge made or make a 7.62[308] gun for lefties,as least they did,should be some out there,Check on Gunbroker.com.,Good luck and God bless,,bill burton////
 
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