It's Going To Get Ugly

[rescath]

You know that thousands of African-American voters are going to come forward saying that they showed up and that there weren't enough provisional ballots -- i.e., that they were disenfranchised.

There are going to be riots in Ohio.

There was also a brief story on CNN about how one voting machine was impounded because a lady voted for Kerry and the vote came out for Bush.

 

[delta lady]

There was also a brief story on CNN about how one voting machine was impounded because a lady voted for Kerry and the vote came out for Bush.

I read at least one story along those lines last night.

 

[rescath]

SCENARIO: Kerry-Edwards will demand a recount. There will be hundreds of thousands of votes for which no recount can be had because electronic voting machines (in use in some parts of Ohio) do not have a paper trail. Consequently, the country will spin to the edge of civil war.

 

[rescath]

SCENARIO: Kerry-Edwards will demand a recount. There will be hundreds of thousands of votes for which no recount can be had because electronic voting machines (in use in some parts of Ohio) do not have a paper trail. Consequently, the country will spin to the edge of civil war.

http://www.ejfi.org/Voting/Voting-20.htm

The result could be the failure of an American presidential election and its collapse into suspicions, accusations and a civic fury that will make Florida 2000 seem like a family spat in the kitchen. Robert Reich, Bill Clinton's Labor Secretary, has written, "Automated voting machines will be easily rigged, with no paper trails to document abuses." Senator John Kerry told Florida Democrats last March, "I don't think we ought to have any vote cast in America that cannot be traced and properly recounted." Pointing out in a recent speech at the NAACP convention that "a million African-Americans were disenfranchised in the last election," Kerry says his campaign is readying 2,000 lawyers to "challenge any place in America where you cannot trace the vote and count the votes" [see Greg Palast, "Vanishing Votes," May 17].

 

[Aleph Null]

I've said from the beginning that using electronic voting machines with no paper trail is a BIG MISTAKE. I still can't believe election officials are really that stupid.

-A0-

 

[Dennis Olson]

My precinct uses marked ballot cards (8x10) that are then scanned while the voter waits at the machine. Electronic tallies AND a paper trail. Works perfectly....

 

[rescath]

My precinct uses marked ballot cards (8x10) that are then scanned while the voter waits at the machine. Electronic tallies AND a paper trail. Works perfectly....

Yes, there ARE good voting machine systems. Unfortunately, very few states use them. Instead, they use ESS and Diebold -- which have KNOWN exploitable, hackable security flaws. Deliberately built-in, I might add.

Is it just a coincidence that the Diebold CEO promised to "deliver Ohio for Bush"?

www.blackboxvoting.org

 

[Blastoff]

There will be no riots in Ohio. I've lived in the Cleveland area and I've lived in the CIncinnati area. Ohio doesn't riot. Even the "Cincinnati riots" of several years ago wasn't much.

Ohio overwhelmingly uses punch cards. Like 80 out of 88 counties. There's no "hanging chads," poll workers had you check your ballot and brush off any hangers-on.

I don't see how you can "vote for Kerry and the vote comes out Bush" with punch cards; I could see a malfunctioning electronic voting machine, but Ohio uses very few of them, so I can't see that malfunctioning machines could cause much error.

 

[rescath]

Oh, by the way, Ohio Secretary of State Blackwell was on the air last night indicating that he estimates that there would be around 175,000 provisional ballots issued (I've heard as high as 200,000 and Blackwell himself put the range between 150,000 and 200,000). Blackwell is a Republican. He estimated that around 90% of these would be deemed valid (if past trends continue). Kerry-Edwards say that most of these were issued in urban areas which went 85-90% for Kerry [edited: to fix typo].

Applying those numbers, you add another (amazingly) 135,000 votes for Kerry-Edwards, resulting in an effective tie. Then try a recount.

As this thread says, it could get REALLY ugly.

 

[Blastoff]

"Kerry-Edwards say that most of these were issued in urban areas which went 85-90% for Bush."

HUh? You're saying all these votes are for Kerry, but Kerry says they were cast in areas that went 85-90% for Bush?

 

[rescath]

There will be no riots in Ohio. I've lived in the Cleveland area and I've lived in the CIncinnati area. Ohio doesn't riot. Even the "Cincinnati riots" of several years ago wasn't much.

Ohio overwhelmingly uses punch cards. Like 80 out of 88 counties. There's no "hanging chads," poll workers had you check your ballot and brush off any hangers-on.

I don't see how you can "vote for Kerry and the vote comes out Bush" with punch cards; I could see a malfunctioning electronic voting machine, but Ohio uses very few of them, so I can't see that malfunctioning machines could cause much error.

I'm talking specifically about the 8 counties that use electronic voting machines. I live in Ohio and know that most counties use the paper ballots. But that's almost 10% of the counties using electronic. What I would like to know is whether Cuyahoga County uses the electronic or the punchcard. At any rate, if those 8 counties are any counties OTHER than Cuyahoga, Kerry could demand that they should not apply to a recount because they cannot be recounted, and the vote totals could completely shift.

This is a very realistic scenario -- especially given the quote from Kerry I cited above -- in which they could make this really ugly in court.

So what's the law? If you demand a recount and 10% of the votes simply cannot be recounted because there's no paper trail, what happens? Constitutional / legal crisis ! Just watch.

And riots can happen, depending upon how Kerry-Edwards play this. If they play the "African-Americans have been disenfranchised" card, which I'm sure they will, this could get ugly in the streets.

 

[delta lady]

I don't think anybody got enough sleep last night.

 

[rescath]

"Kerry-Edwards say that most of these were issued in urban areas which went 85-90% for Bush."

HUh? You're saying all these votes are for Kerry, but Kerry says they were cast in areas that went 85-90% for Bush?

Sorry, typo. I'll edit the original post to correct.

 

[north runner]

Oh, by the way, Ohio Secretary of State Blackwell was on the air last night indicating that he estimates that there would be around 175,000 provisional ballots issued (I've heard as high as 200,000 and Blackwell himself put the range between 150,000 and 200,000). Blackwell is a Republican. He estimated that around 90% of these would be deemed valid (if past trends continue). Kerry-Edwards say that most of these were issued in urban areas which went 85-90% for Kerry [edited: to fix typo].

Applying those numbers, you add another (amazingly) 135,000 votes for Kerry-Edwards, resulting in an effective tie. Then try a recount.

As this thread says, it could get REALLY ugly.

Either I'm really fogged or that doesn't make any sense. KerryEdwards should only get 15/20 thousand votes. 135000 would be way off the percentages. But then I don't count in double vision like demorats.

 

[ExCop]

Provisional Ballots - Ohio

IIRC Last elections provisional ballots in Ohio were based on people who had moved out of state in the last 30 days. 80-90% of those were legal and counted.


This years are different-based on whether the voter is a resident or not, legal voter or not - so far in the states that have used this style usually only 10% actually turn out to be valid. I would expect probably 30-40% approx will turn out valid in Ohio.

 

[imaginative]

Here are a couple of helpful links to note if you want to follow this ...

Here is the Ohio vote result breakdown by county-

http://election.sos.state.oh.us/results/RaceDetail.aspx?race=PP

That will give you an idea -more or less I suspect- of the prov ballot breakdown



Here is the breakdown of provisional ballots issued...

http://election.sos.state.oh.us/ProvBallots.htm

Interestinly enough, Summit county(#7) is blank. I would expect that there were 8000-more or less prov ballots issued here(I live in Summit Cnty). I would call John Schmidt (he runs S Cnty elections) but I sure he hasn't- and wont sleep for quite some time)

Here is The Summit Cnty Brd of Election website..
http://www.summitcountyboe.com/index.htm

 

[A.T.Hagan]

I think there will be a lot of whining and a few people will try to get something started but for the most part there will be no real action - except maybe in a courtroom. Maybe not even there.

.....Alan.

 

[CTCStrela]

I think we're really going to be ok.

 

[rescath]

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/11/03/election.main/index.html

Blackwell says he's guessing 175K provisional ballots, but that number could go as high as 250K. 250K could make a tremendous difference. Those numbers from SOS website do not appear to be accurate and may reflect original issue numbers. These may have been subsequently adjusted. Blackwell has given orders for counties to come up with an exact number of provisionals by 2PM today. We'll know a lot more then.

 

[Metolius]

I think its over. I can't imagine that even Kerry would be so selfish as to continue to promote his own goals to the ultimate destruction of any future for the democratic party. He has done the math, and if he continues, that will be the result.

Regret is understandable. Leaving our country vulnerable and shredding his party's credibility is unforgivable.

 

[rescath]

I think we're really going to be ok.

Famous last words.

Of course, with either Kerry or Bush in office, we categorically will NOT be OK.

 

[housemouse]

Here is rural NY, we use the voting machines that have the little mechanical levers.

You pull a big lever to close the curtain and then little ones next to the person you want to vote for. When all the little levers are set to your satisfaction, you pull the big lever to set your vote and open the curtain. No electricity needed.

These seem so simple, I do not know why they are not used more often. No electricity required, either.

 

[rescath]

What I would like to know is whether Cuyahoga County uses the electronic or the punchcard.

Cuyahoga uses punchcards. This will get very interesting before it's over.

 

[Amanda Blue]

At least the problems aren't in Florida this time.

 

[delta lady]

At least the problems aren't in Florida this time.

I don't think I could have stood it if it had happened again.

 

[night driver]

Umm you have lived in Ohio HOW long???

Do the names Glenville and Hough ring a bell?????



PuhlEZE don't TRY to tell me ohioans don't riot.

the scars are still there along Hough Ave 40 years later.

 

[dimensiondancer]

Texas likes to vote Republican. We had many electronic voting machines here. Bush won Texas. Kerry would have won if all the Bush voters used malfunctioning machines as you stated. Those machines worked just fine. It's just typical loser whining.

 

[delta lady]

Texas likes to vote Republican.

Then how do you explain Ann Richards and LBJ ? Just off the top of my head.

 

[dimensiondancer]

LBJ is easy, he was a Texan, had a lot of followers here and therefore that made a difference to many.

Ann Richards was her push for gambling, which Texans really like to do. Tired of going to Louisiana to spend our money. I voted for Ann for that reason. Then we quickly got rid of her.

I said they "like" to vote Republican, just "like" we like Barbeque. We don't eat Barbeque everyday, sometime we have other choices to make.

We didn't have any other choice to make this go round.

I did vote for Lupe Valdez, the democratic hispanic homosexual choice for sheriff. She won it too.

 

[HeliumAvid]

It is all mutters fault

Helium

(and maybe nightdriver too)

 

[delta lady]

dimensiondancer:<SCRIPT type=text/javascript> vbmenu_register("postmenu_1173581", true); </SCRIPT>

I like BBQ too, but I'm not so sure about putting Fritos in chili.

BTW..I was born in San Angelo..

 

[dimensiondancer]

Delta Lady, San Angelo is a nice little town!

I don't care for Fritos, but I do use a little cheese and onions on top of my chili.

And about Ann Richards, sorry that we used her like we did, but we all have the lotto now because of her - be it good or bad. She was a fiesty ole lady.

 

[CTCStrela]

Rescath, looks like my crystal ball was a little clearer, this time, than yours. Kerry gave up the chase.

 

[RC]

My precinct uses marked ballot cards (8x10) that are then scanned while the voter waits at the machine. Electronic tallies AND a paper trail. Works perfectly....

We use those here in Minnesota as well, and it's one of those rare cases where TPTB in Minnesota did something that actually makes a lot of sense. The votes get counted fast with the machine, but if the power goes out or the machine gets broken, or people just don't trust the machine, it is easy to count the ballots by hand.

For the life of me, I can't figure out why everyone doesn't go with this system.

Before these machines showed up about 20 years ago, we used the mechanical voting machines with the lever that closes the curtain. They seemed to work well also, although the voter needs to have a little bit of faith that the thing is actually working correctly. With the OCR ballots, you eliminate that. You fill it in with a normal pen, and you see your handiwork right in front of you.

 

[timbo]

Its too cold to riot in Ohio. They'll have to go to Fla. and Calif.

 

[Oilpatch Hand]

Here is rural NY, we use the voting machines that have the little mechanical levers.

You pull a big lever to close the curtain and then little ones next to the person you want to vote for. When all the little levers are set to your satisfaction, you pull the big lever to set your vote and open the curtain. No electricity needed.

These seem so simple, I do not know why they are not used more often. No electricity required, either.

Because they are heavy, difficult and somewhat costly to move around. But, I enjoyed using one the last time such things were seen in Southeast Texas...they went to the punchcard systems around 1978.

Surprised to hear that there are still some mechanical voting machines in use. They're the electoral equivalent of the Stanley Steamer these days.














P.S. No riot this election cycle...Kerry conceded.





We now rejoin our regularly scheduled thread drift already in progress.

 

[night driver]

they are also not terribly FAST in terms of actually putting people through the process...

Plus they do NOT get zeroed out after any election, the numbers are tallied at start and stop and the math is done to determine the number of votes cast this cycle.....


But I LOVED them, and only got to vote in one a couple times....


C

 

[RC]

they are also not terribly FAST in terms of actually putting people through the process...

Plus they do NOT get zeroed out after any election, the numbers are tallied at start and stop and the math is done to determine the number of votes cast this cycle.....


But I LOVED them, and only got to vote in one a couple times....


C

I only voted in them a couple of times, too. I think they phased them out in the early 1980's. Nobody complained about them, because they were around at a time when people didn't complain about being disenfranchised because they experienced the slightest problem at some point during the process of voting.

If they were introduced today, I'm sure that there would be an outcry about some little thing that was perceived to be wrong with them--such as "I wanted to go back in and change my vote, but I accidentally flipped the big lever and opened the curtain too soon," "people are able to peek in the curtain," "I don't have enough manual dexterity to flip the lever," "I'm claustriphobic," etc., ad nauseum.

 

[imaginative]

Can Kerry still win??

Or is that crazy??

Granted, Kerry made his concession speech (admiral and presidential too, I might add).

And for 2 days I've heard credible folks saying that Ohio isn't official yet.

Then FWIW I read this blurb on Rense...


Media Coverup - Did Kerry
Throw the Election?
From Martin Lund
11-5-4


"-*If* Kerry is found to win Ohio, regardless of his public concession, he will win the election."

The Low Down on Ohio


From: Martin Lund


I just got off the phone with the office of the Ohio Secretary of State and was told the following:

* Kerry's concession has no legal bearing on who wins the election.

* Ohio has been using and counting provisional ballots for the exact same way for the past 10 elections.

* Ohio and Federal law dictate 10 days and then begin counting the provisional ballots.

* All valid provisional ballots will be counted.


*The winner of the state of Ohio shall not be considered official until such time as all provisional ballots have been counted.

-*If* Kerry is found to win Ohio, regardless of his public concession, he will win the election.

The woman I spoke with asked that people post this information far and wide because, for whatever reason, the media aren't reporting it.


-Martin
http://www.rense.com/general59/daf.htm

 

[PentelPen]

Keep in mind, that technically the voters don't elect the President, the electors do. And the electors haven't voted yet. That's probably why they're saying that the concession doesn't have any legal meaning.

Interesting Electoral College Info