Knoxville's Joker
Has No Life - Lives on TB
I would tend to agree with you Dennis. I do not see it happening. I am trying to be positive and see the solution. But unfortunately many in positions of power would have to die before things change.
RACE WAR Here Are The Thousands Of Teachers Who Say They’re Willing To Violate Law To Keep Pushing CRT
- Thread starter MinnesotaSmith
- Start date
I would tend to agree with you Dennis. I do not see it happening. I am trying to be positive and see the solution. But unfortunately many in positions of power would have to die before things change.
You spelled “realist” wrong.
ETA: We speak plainly and without euphemism about a vast array of topics. We don’t shy away from any subject, and we don’t censor member speech here unless it gets really out of hand. You’ve been here 18 months. This forum has been here nearly 25 years. If we make you uncomfortable, the exit is over there to the left.
This website isn’t about fluffy pink bunnies. If you need that, msnbc.com is there for you.
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33dInd
Veteran Member
If you don’t like this
I don’t think any of us are racist in the kkk sense of the 1930,s. But we are damned sure realist.
Just saying
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thompson
Certa Bonum Certamen
What the hell are you talking about? For several generations (and even before that) they as a group have had EVERY opportunity to assimilate into society.
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The Snack Artist
Membership Revoked
Or expelled. Go work in jyna, boy.
Knoxville's Joker
Has No Life - Lives on TB
It all happens during early childhood where 30-50% of IQ is formed. That I am finding in varying percentages in research psych papers.
All very true. The 20% intermixing to which you refer, alludes to the potential for more IQ. A few points can be altered that I believe is a potential. how many points is the key argument.
Doing some digging it appears about ~50% of IQ is genetic. The rest is at home culture, time in school, learning resource availability at home, safety and food security also contributed to greater IQ.
www.gracepointwellness.org
Much intelligence research has focused on trying to explain the causes of intelligence; where intelligence comes from. At various points in history, particular psychological theorists have suggested that intelligence is primarily an inherited quality (e.g., something formed by biological and genetic forces, and inherited from one's parents) or, instead, primarily something influenced by children's environment (e.g., something influenced by school and parental teachings and by exposure to life experiences and opportunities). Both of these views have merit, as it turns out. Currently, most researchers agree that a combination of both genetic and environmental factors contribute to the development of intelligence.
Genetic Influences on Intelligence
One of the ways that researchers can determine whether intelligence is influenced by genetics is to generate "heritability estimates." Heritability estimates are a mathematical way of representing the extent to which genetics contribute to individual differences in observed behavior such as IQ test scores. Heritability is represented as a numerical proportion that ranges from 0.0 (a case where genes do not contribute at all to differences) to 1.0 (a case where genes explain all of the observed differences between IQ scores). A heritability estimate of .40 would suggests that on average, about 40% of observable differences on a particular trait are caused by genetics. Often, heritability estimates are generated based on studies of identical twins who share identical genetics but who have experienced different environments and opportunities while growing up.
Based on such studies of identical twins' IQ scores, researchers have determined that the heritability of intelligence is approximately .50. This heritability value suggests that about half of intelligence is more or less determined or caused by a child's genetics and biology. The other half is determined by environmental factors which include children's socioeconomic status (a measure of family wealth and social status), parent and caregiver attitudes towards education (whether they believe it is important), cultural and educational opportunities, and other similar social factors.
Cultural Influences on Intelligence
IQ scores are influenced by specific cultural experiences, such as exposure to certain language customs and knowledge from an early age. For instance, many low-income African American children are raised with a language style which may be characterized by an emphasis on story telling and the recounting of personal experiences (e.g., "Did you hear about what Mrs. Smith did this morning?"). Many questions appear in this conversational style, but a fair portion of the time, they function more as rhetorical devices designed to engage a conversation rather than as specific requests for precise information. This style of questioning encourages social bonding but it is not particularly good preparation for traditional intelligence tests which typically demand that children generate a specific single correct response to an examiner's questions. Being used to thinking and responding differently in their day to day lives versus what is demanded of them during testing, such children can end up scoring lower on IQ tests than equally-intelligent peers simply because the testing situation itself does not well fit their life preparation.
In contrast, caregivers in middle income (and above) white and Asian families tend to spend a fair amount of time asking children specific knowledge-based questions that have a single "correct" answer (e.g., What is this word? What shape is a stop sign?). These knowledge-based questions are more like the questions that are used in traditional IQ tests. Therefore, these children may feel more comfortable dealing these types of tasks, and therefore score maximally well (in relationship to their actual intelligence) on such tests.
Socioeconomic Influences on Intelligence
Family socioeconomic status (SES) also affects children's development of intelligence. Specifically, research suggests that children from low SES families tend to have lower IQ scores.
Socioeconomic status has to do with a family's economic and social hierarchy status. Higher SES families have higher family incomes and greater access to necessary and optional but desirable resources than lower SES families. Correspondingly, it is much easier for higher SES families to provide for children's needs in terms of food, clothing, shelter and health care, and to offer them an enriched array of opportunities such as education and daycare than for lower SES families.
Children who feel safe, well-fed, and rested, who are healthy, and whose parents value their intellectual development will be better able and motivated to concentrate their energy and attention on mental tasks and tests. In contrast, children who constantly feel afraid for their safety; who are hungry, sick, or chronically exhausted; and whose parents are overwhelmed and not focused on children's education will simply not have as much energy or motivation to spend pursuing their cognitive development. As well, parents who are not struggling to simply meet children's basic needs have the luxury of energy and time they can spend reading to children, playing games with them, and becoming involved in their homework and school related activities. This extra time and attention builds children's intellectual skills and also communicates to children that education is highly valued and important, giving them an advantage over children whose parents cannot provide such attention.
Educational Influences on Intelligence
Researchers have also found that the amount of time children spend in school is highly related to IQ scores. The more time children spend in school, the higher their IQ scores tend to be. The likely explanation for this finding is that teachers train children to answer factual questions, solve problems, and learn specific bodies of knowledge which then prepares them to answer questions appearing in IQ tests which have been formulated along similar lines and which draw upon the same bodies of knowledge taught in school. It follows that children who have more frequent exposure to educational environments are more prepared to respond to IQ style questions in a testing situation, and thus tend to do better on IQ tests than children who do not have as much of this sort of preparation. Therefore, children who miss out on educational opportunities because they're often absent or truant from school, or because they change schools frequently can end up disadvantaged when taking an IQ test.
All very true. The 20% intermixing to which you refer, alludes to the potential for more IQ. A few points can be altered that I believe is a potential. how many points is the key argument.
Doing some digging it appears about ~50% of IQ is genetic. The rest is at home culture, time in school, learning resource availability at home, safety and food security also contributed to greater IQ.
Causes of Intelligence - Child Development Theory: Middle Childhood (8-11)
Much intelligence research has focused on trying to explain the causes of intelligence; where intelligence comes from. At various points in history, particular psychological theorists have suggested that intelligence is primarily an inherited quality (e.g., something formed by biological and geneti
www.gracepointwellness.org
Much intelligence research has focused on trying to explain the causes of intelligence; where intelligence comes from. At various points in history, particular psychological theorists have suggested that intelligence is primarily an inherited quality (e.g., something formed by biological and genetic forces, and inherited from one's parents) or, instead, primarily something influenced by children's environment (e.g., something influenced by school and parental teachings and by exposure to life experiences and opportunities). Both of these views have merit, as it turns out. Currently, most researchers agree that a combination of both genetic and environmental factors contribute to the development of intelligence.
Genetic Influences on Intelligence
One of the ways that researchers can determine whether intelligence is influenced by genetics is to generate "heritability estimates." Heritability estimates are a mathematical way of representing the extent to which genetics contribute to individual differences in observed behavior such as IQ test scores. Heritability is represented as a numerical proportion that ranges from 0.0 (a case where genes do not contribute at all to differences) to 1.0 (a case where genes explain all of the observed differences between IQ scores). A heritability estimate of .40 would suggests that on average, about 40% of observable differences on a particular trait are caused by genetics. Often, heritability estimates are generated based on studies of identical twins who share identical genetics but who have experienced different environments and opportunities while growing up.
Based on such studies of identical twins' IQ scores, researchers have determined that the heritability of intelligence is approximately .50. This heritability value suggests that about half of intelligence is more or less determined or caused by a child's genetics and biology. The other half is determined by environmental factors which include children's socioeconomic status (a measure of family wealth and social status), parent and caregiver attitudes towards education (whether they believe it is important), cultural and educational opportunities, and other similar social factors.
Cultural Influences on Intelligence
IQ scores are influenced by specific cultural experiences, such as exposure to certain language customs and knowledge from an early age. For instance, many low-income African American children are raised with a language style which may be characterized by an emphasis on story telling and the recounting of personal experiences (e.g., "Did you hear about what Mrs. Smith did this morning?"). Many questions appear in this conversational style, but a fair portion of the time, they function more as rhetorical devices designed to engage a conversation rather than as specific requests for precise information. This style of questioning encourages social bonding but it is not particularly good preparation for traditional intelligence tests which typically demand that children generate a specific single correct response to an examiner's questions. Being used to thinking and responding differently in their day to day lives versus what is demanded of them during testing, such children can end up scoring lower on IQ tests than equally-intelligent peers simply because the testing situation itself does not well fit their life preparation.
In contrast, caregivers in middle income (and above) white and Asian families tend to spend a fair amount of time asking children specific knowledge-based questions that have a single "correct" answer (e.g., What is this word? What shape is a stop sign?). These knowledge-based questions are more like the questions that are used in traditional IQ tests. Therefore, these children may feel more comfortable dealing these types of tasks, and therefore score maximally well (in relationship to their actual intelligence) on such tests.
Socioeconomic Influences on Intelligence
Family socioeconomic status (SES) also affects children's development of intelligence. Specifically, research suggests that children from low SES families tend to have lower IQ scores.
Socioeconomic status has to do with a family's economic and social hierarchy status. Higher SES families have higher family incomes and greater access to necessary and optional but desirable resources than lower SES families. Correspondingly, it is much easier for higher SES families to provide for children's needs in terms of food, clothing, shelter and health care, and to offer them an enriched array of opportunities such as education and daycare than for lower SES families.
Children who feel safe, well-fed, and rested, who are healthy, and whose parents value their intellectual development will be better able and motivated to concentrate their energy and attention on mental tasks and tests. In contrast, children who constantly feel afraid for their safety; who are hungry, sick, or chronically exhausted; and whose parents are overwhelmed and not focused on children's education will simply not have as much energy or motivation to spend pursuing their cognitive development. As well, parents who are not struggling to simply meet children's basic needs have the luxury of energy and time they can spend reading to children, playing games with them, and becoming involved in their homework and school related activities. This extra time and attention builds children's intellectual skills and also communicates to children that education is highly valued and important, giving them an advantage over children whose parents cannot provide such attention.
Educational Influences on Intelligence
Researchers have also found that the amount of time children spend in school is highly related to IQ scores. The more time children spend in school, the higher their IQ scores tend to be. The likely explanation for this finding is that teachers train children to answer factual questions, solve problems, and learn specific bodies of knowledge which then prepares them to answer questions appearing in IQ tests which have been formulated along similar lines and which draw upon the same bodies of knowledge taught in school. It follows that children who have more frequent exposure to educational environments are more prepared to respond to IQ style questions in a testing situation, and thus tend to do better on IQ tests than children who do not have as much of this sort of preparation. Therefore, children who miss out on educational opportunities because they're often absent or truant from school, or because they change schools frequently can end up disadvantaged when taking an IQ test.
Knoxville's Joker
Has No Life - Lives on TB
I also have said if they do not want to learn, get them to dig ditches for plumbers and have them learn a trade instead. Apprenticeships worked well for millenia for a reason...
You can be whoever you please. There is almost universal support of blacks here. However, not burning, looting, murdering black ghetto-rats. (For that matter, not burning, looting, murdering rats of any color.) We celebrate the rule of law, and rail against lawlessness and Communism. And I know for a fact that most everyone couldn’t care less the race of the bad people. You’ve been here 18 months, long enough to know what I’m saying is the truth.
We don’t tolerate the race card being played here. You’re either a good person or you’re not. And that’s entirely on YOU.
ETA: My best friend in decades is a black guy that I worked with a few years ago. We had a great time poking derisive fun at all the racial stereotypes of all races.
We don’t tolerate the race card being played here. You’re either a good person or you’re not. And that’s entirely on YOU.
ETA: My best friend in decades is a black guy that I worked with a few years ago. We had a great time poking derisive fun at all the racial stereotypes of all races.
I think it's fair to say a generalization was being made. I'm not playing any kind of card, the whole thread is about the inferiority of black people. Not a hill to die on for me but I have to disagree
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I tend to agree with your perspective. But then, all the blacks that have crossed my path in life have been educated professionals. Now, that being said, the “black culture” in general has deteriorated over the past 30-ish years. Kids that try to excel scholastically are often beaten or ostracized as being “Oreos.” There is a vast inertia of race-based requirement to NOT “perform” for whitey. That has ruined the lives of millions of kids.
As an aside, what happened to black music genres such as blues, Motown, etc? Some of that music is the best this country ever offered. These days, I never hear new music from black performers other than gangsta rap. WTF is that all about? There seems to be nothing in American black culture (generally-speaking) other than the glorification of violence. Why is that allowed to flourish? My bud was raised by “regular” conservative parents and taught that education is the most important thing. He’s an accomplished software geek and earns more than I do.
I’ve met his mom and dad. We all had lunch together. They’re so proud of him (and rightly so.) Now, all that being said, it’s true that IQ tests are biased toward “mainstream” (white) culture, and would skew against blacks. But the answer isn’t to change the IQ tests. The answer is to go back to raising all kids within a mainstream culture. That part sounds racist, but I really don’t mean it like that. If one wished to have their American kids succeed in Japan for example, those kids’ best chance at success is to be raised fully integrated into the Japanese culture.
Pretty much all that I’ve just said is kind-of an unspoken “fundamental understanding” on the part of TBers. Thus, it’s never really spoken of unless one asks directly. We DO a have a handful of genuine racists here, but we know who those are and we ignore them. (Sometimes I or others call them on it openly however.)
You, as a person of color, are absolutely welcome here, as are all “normal” people. But yeah, at times of heightened frustration, this place can sound pretty racist.
Does that explain it a bit better? I haven’t expounded well on some of the points I wanted to make, and for that I apologize.
As an aside, what happened to black music genres such as blues, Motown, etc? Some of that music is the best this country ever offered. These days, I never hear new music from black performers other than gangsta rap. WTF is that all about? There seems to be nothing in American black culture (generally-speaking) other than the glorification of violence. Why is that allowed to flourish? My bud was raised by “regular” conservative parents and taught that education is the most important thing. He’s an accomplished software geek and earns more than I do.
I’ve met his mom and dad. We all had lunch together. They’re so proud of him (and rightly so.) Now, all that being said, it’s true that IQ tests are biased toward “mainstream” (white) culture, and would skew against blacks. But the answer isn’t to change the IQ tests. The answer is to go back to raising all kids within a mainstream culture. That part sounds racist, but I really don’t mean it like that. If one wished to have their American kids succeed in Japan for example, those kids’ best chance at success is to be raised fully integrated into the Japanese culture.
Pretty much all that I’ve just said is kind-of an unspoken “fundamental understanding” on the part of TBers. Thus, it’s never really spoken of unless one asks directly. We DO a have a handful of genuine racists here, but we know who those are and we ignore them. (Sometimes I or others call them on it openly however.)
You, as a person of color, are absolutely welcome here, as are all “normal” people. But yeah, at times of heightened frustration, this place can sound pretty racist.
Does that explain it a bit better? I haven’t expounded well on some of the points I wanted to make, and for that I apologize.
I agree. But there is a difference between throwing red flags at the socioeconomic factors vs saying people of color are inferior. Let me add that when a black dude enters a store looking like a hood rat I'm as on edge as anyone else here, but the assertion of not being able to have the same iq.. that's what I took issue with
Addendum:
Many of us have been together on this forum 10-20 years. Because of that, we have all tacitly come to understand and agree to what I said above. It takes new folks awhile to understand some of the precepts underlying commentary here.
Many of us have been together on this forum 10-20 years. Because of that, we have all tacitly come to understand and agree to what I said above. It takes new folks awhile to understand some of the precepts underlying commentary here.
Knoxville's Joker
Has No Life - Lives on TB
If anything I am saying that the potential exists for blacks to be as intelligent as anyone else. Unfortunately society and their cultural constructs prevents this from occurring in a few cases.
I have met many blacks that are very intelligent and have had zero issues with.
I have fostered black children and too many times it is the home environment they have at a young age that creates issues and it was observed if they hang out with smart people well they learn how to act smart and gain a few intelligence points. So it is literally those one chooses to surround themselves with that is a deciding factor on things as much as family that they have no choice on.
Understood. There are people who firmly believe that. (I’m not one of them.) But you’ll be able to tell the resident racists here by what they post. In times past I’ve told several members to “take that sh*t to Stormfront. There’s no place for it here.” We do have a “report this post” function here. One can report material that they feel needs staff review.
It’s just so tiring to have race constantly shoved down our throats as justification for egregious behavior. We tend to lash out at it. Anyway, as a fellow software geek, I’m glad you’re here. And your race has nothing to do with that at all.
Like I said, but
Yeah. Its just a bit tiring with all the other informative things that some threads devolve to this. Happy to be here and I'd be in a stack with most if yall gladly
Yeah. Its just a bit tiring with all the other informative things that some threads devolve to this. Happy to be here and I'd be in a stack with most if yall gladly
But there is nothing racist about CRT. Right?
DD is right. CRT and the “1619 Project” are two big programs to try to make whites ashamed of their history. There’s a lot of very ugly history in the US, as well as around the world, but that was then, this is now. With a few exceptions, that kind of crap doesn’t happen in the world anymore. And it’s not necessary to make entire races feel guilt over what their ancestors did.
artichoke
Greetings from near tropical NYC!
And yet turnout for school board elections is below 20%. If conservatives would vote in school board elections even when they don't have kids in the schools, a lot of this would get fixed. We still vote in ours, and our last kid graduated 2 years ago.
artichoke
Greetings from near tropical NYC!
You're kidding, right? (Clever putting the thing about "less human" in there, which they are not. But the rest is delusional.)
Knoxville's Joker
Has No Life - Lives on TB
So your argumentative basis is that they are lesser humans and incapable of being more intelligent?
Oh, not ALL of them. Only the 90-95% who give the rest a bad name.
Raggedyman
Res ipsa loquitur
Here Are The Thousands Of Teachers Who Say They’re Willing To Violate Law To Keep Pushing CRT . . . .
WELL OK THEN
So Where Are The TENS of THOUSANDS of Irate Parents Willing To Kick Their Asses?
^^RIGHT THERE^^
Is Your Problem
Is Your Problem
artichoke
Greetings from near tropical NYC!
No, that's the opposite of what I am saying. They are equally humans, but the excuses you have after that don't make sense. I don't assume they can be more intelligent, or that they can't. Their lower performance doesn't mean someone else owes them more.
Knoxville's Joker
Has No Life - Lives on TB
I previously linked a medical journal article stating that IQ is 50% (the percentage varies based on article and research methodologies used) genetic. Here is another one:
Is intelligence determined by genetics?: MedlinePlus Genetics
Factors that affect intelligence include genes, education, nutrition, and others. Learn more about how genetics impacts intelligence.
medlineplus.gov
The IQ issue is outside of genetics. I have consistently said that.
William lynch taught fellow slave owners a methodology by which to more easily control slaves and this eventually became ingrained in black culture
https://www.saberesafricanos.net/phocadownloadpap/libros/Lets_Make_A_Slave_The_Making_Of_A_Slave.pdf
I never said anyone owes them more.
The core issue if anything is culture and home environments as causes of the issue. The medical papers consistently say that home environment is the biggest determining factor in developmental IQ advancement.
Effect of environmental factors on intelligence quotient of children | Request PDF
Request PDF | Effect of environmental factors on intelligence quotient of children | Introduction A child's intelligence quotient (IQ) is determined by both genetic and environmental factors that start from the prenatal period... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate
www.researchgate.net
The psychiatry journals are very odd reads and more or less point out that a multitude of home factors determine that ability to obtain a higher IQ score.
There is also a lot of psychiatric information regarding trauma and regressive behaviors. You have to learn that sort of stuff as part of being a foster parent. The person's mind will regress back to the state of first experience trauma until that trauma is processed. Again this regression will have a direct affect on IQ development. And there is some indications that those with a higher IQ are less likely to have experienced child hood traumas.
Trauma and Stressor-related Disorders in Children | Children's Hospital of Philadelphia
Trauma and stressor-related disorders are a group of emotional and behavioral problems that may result from childhood traumatic and stressful experiences.
Age Regression: What It Is, Why It Happens & When It May Be Helpful
Age regression is the term for when an individual mentally and emotionally returns to a younger age. This can be a choice to help relieve stress, a symptom of a mental illness, or a therapeutic aid. We'll explore what age regression really means and when it might be helpful.
www.healthline.com
Evidence That the Impact of Childhood Trauma on IQ Is Substantial in Controls, Moderate in Siblings, and Absent in Patients With Psychotic Disorder
Research suggests that childhood trauma is associated with cognitive alterations, but it is not known whether the cognitive alterations observed in patients with psychotic disorder, and their relatives, is trauma-related. Patients with a schizophrenia-spectrum ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
High IQs May Help Thwart Post-Traumatic Stress
MinnesotaSmith
Membership Revoked
When a libtard or diversity says a person, sentence, organization, or situation is "racist", when dug into, one or more of these is nearly always going on:
1) they're losing a debate, and are desperately trying to deflect attention away from that;
2) they're trying to scam something they have not earned;
3) they're in the presence of a superior (their betters) intellectually, morally, or WRT achievements.
1) they're losing a debate, and are desperately trying to deflect attention away from that;
2) they're trying to scam something they have not earned;
3) they're in the presence of a superior (their betters) intellectually, morally, or WRT achievements.
West
Senior
Just add, that IMO the safety nets and government schools, MSM, teach all races that money comes from the government who makes it all and dole's it out to the babies mommas and evil, greedy corporations who don't pay federal taxes(lie).
When ones mind set is based upon the most important thing in our society of lies, then their IQ drops about 25 points over all.
West
Senior
In my AO, there is some super stupid white trash peoples. Many who support CRT. Usually they have tattoos covering their bodies, and constantly blame "the man" for all their ills. The "man" is anyone who is some what successful in life, property owners, etc...
Also believe in the mighty wizard of oz., aka FIAT system.
Also believe in the mighty wizard of oz., aka FIAT system.
Griz3752
Retired, practising Curmudgeon
So long as the signatories realise by signing this pledge, they've admitted guilt under the law. If the states which have enacted these laws have them fired and charged criminally, I hope they have the courage of their convictions and accept their punishment without a lot of whining, pissing and moaning.Here Are The Thousands Of Teachers Who Say They’re Willing To Violate Law To Keep Pushing CRT
By Luke Rosiak
I've yet to review the penalties clause in these laws but would assume loss of credentials might be one of them.
The outcome might be a partial resolution to the shortage of workers in Food Services or Health Care support roles; porters, personal care aides, environmental services etc. There should also be more Uber, Lyft, Door Dash operators so service should go up in those sectors.
As well, there may be an influx of foreclosed/repossessed properties coming into an inventory-starved market which benefit the wider society.
Time will tell but, sll in all, I see this sorting itself out in favour of the taxpaying citizenry.
MinnesotaSmith
Membership Revoked
Griz, don't expect anything to produce a big upswing in the # of Uber Taxi/ Lyft/large-company gig food delivery drivers. Word has mostly gotten to potential employees in those "jobs" that they would just about be working for free. Even the most math-challenged among them will soon stop driving, when they need a repair they can't afford due to only netting nominal wages.
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subnet
Boot
I remember reading some paper breaking all the data (IQ by race) down, then mentioning the data to a coworker, that was currently in some BS purposely loud discussion, he said "he didn't believe that" ( the data) and that all children have the same ability, but are products of their surroundings.Then all of a sudden, my lead who also joined the conversation, told me to stop saying anything, as the lefty bitch that was the first in the discussion, IMed some big boss, that then yanked our leads chain.
Basically, it seems that all science (old white guy science) that has come before is moot and only their ideas (lefty feelings) hold water anymore.
Most of this stuff is behind pay walls but it would not hurt for everyone to study Kipling.
A Summer of Reading
Kipling Knew What the U.S. May Now Learn
By Edward Rothstein
- Jan. 26, 2002
''Take up the White Man's burden,'' was Rudyard Kipling's notorious prescription for the United States as it began to rule the Philippine Islands. That refrain, from an 1899 poem, eventually became a key exhibit in the case against the racism and exploitation of 19th-century imperialism. Kipling's attitudes toward ''new-caught, sullen peoples,/Half devil and half child'' permanently sullied his reputation.
The notion of ''White Man's burden'' once again seems peculiarly relevant in thinking about the war in Afghanistan. What are the goals of the Western powers as the region is transformed? What good can be expected and how can it be achieved?
For Kipling these issues were also personal. He was born in India, and though educated in England, he returned to India as a journalist. He hoped that his writing would reveal ''the whole sweep and meaning of things throughout the empire.'' And in fact, from 1886 to 1901 his tales (including ''The Man Who Would Be King''), his poems (including ''Barrack-Room Ballads'') and his 1901 novel, ''Kim,'' began to do just that.
In fact, assessments of Kipling's reputation and early works cannot be easily separated from evaluations of the British Empire. During his lifetime he was one of Britain's most renowned writers. He won the Nobel Prize, was praised by T. S. Eliot and became friends with King George V. For decades, films ranging from early silents to ''Gunga Din'' with Douglas Fairbanks Jr. celebrated Kipling's heroic vision.
But as the critic Edmund Wilson wrote, in literary circles the ''eclipse of the reputation of Kipling'' began as early as 1910. By 1941, when Wilson was writing, Kipling had ''dropped out of modern literature.'' In 1942 George Orwell wrote: ''During five literary generations every enlightened person has despised him'' as ''morally insensitive and aesthetically disgusting.'' And Lionel Trilling added to qualified literary praise a dismissal of Kipling's ''bullying, ruthlessness and self-righteousness.
''During the early 1960's more analytic treatment came into play in important essays and biographical studies by Noel Annan, Andrew Rutherford and other scholars. But Kipling became a specialized taste, alien to both the popular and political imaginations. Irving Howe's 1982 anthology, ''The Portable Kipling,'' tried to provide some resuscitation with a surprisingly sympathetic introduction. ''History has come to Kipling's rescue,'' Howe wrote, ''What has replaced imperialism has often been something much worse. ''But the academy seemed unimpressed until Kipling's injured literary corpse was used for postcolonial examinations of Western imperialism. More subtly, Edward Said wrote a perceptive analysis of ''Kim'' in his 1993 book, ''Culture and Imperialism,'' calling the novel ''rich and absolutely fascinating'' but ''profoundly embarrassing. ''It will be interesting to see how Kipling fares in a new biography, ''The Long Recessional'' by David Gilmour, to be published this spring by Farrar, Straus & Giroux. But the war in Afghanistan should spur yet another examination, particularly as the West becomes involved in nation building. In a region long scarred by tribal and religious massacres, invasions, poverty and corruption, the hope is that over $4 billion in aid will lead to a Western-style democracy, a Western-style justice system and a relatively free economy. But don't these ambitious humanitarian goals themselves require a form of imperialism not all that different from Britain's at its best? Don't these intentions unavoidably assert superiority? And may not these ambitions -- however fantastical -- possibly lead to varieties of exploitation and unexpected massacres now associated with the phrase ''White Man's burden''? How are burdens of imperial power to be borne as they arise in new incarnations?
Kipling's work helps shed more light on these knotty problems than it might seem, given his reputation. In much of the early fiction an empathetic imagination displaces jingoistic doctrine. The imperial enterprise, Kipling suggests, is not so easy to evaluate. It is tinged by generosity as well as venality, tragedy as well as evil.
In ''Kim,'' for example, the street urchin son of a low-life Irish soldier and a low-caste Indian mother learns to negotiate the teeming bazaar of Indian life, impersonating and conversing with sahibs (the ruling white men) along with Tibetans, Sikhs, Afghans and Muslims. But for Kim, social boundaries and hierarchies become porous.
These natives are not sullen half-men and half-children. They are rivalrous, brutish, generous, xenophobic, kind and corrupt -- very much like sahibs themselves. One central character says of the white rulers: ''It is with them as with all men.'' Another character says that sahibs who don't understand the land or its peoples are ''worse than the pestilence.'' The students in the elite sahib school where Kim is sent against his will are abusive, snobby, racist, part of a restrictive society that pales before Kim's experiences of India.
So the novel, far from celebrating imperial authority, dismantles it, as does Kipling's 1888 tale of perverse imperial designs, ''The Man Who Would Be King.'' Among the craggy peaks and isolated plains of a land beyond Afghanistan, two scruffy white con men conquer a series of primitive tribes. In the new kingdom, the tribes prosper; the rulers are seen as gods. But then one ''king'' violates the rules of a culture he does not understand. He is revealed as ''not a God nor a Devil'' but a fallible and deceptive man. The natives crucify him in expiation of no one's sins but his own.
The imperial project then, is fraught with dangers that claims of superiority cannot fend off. Kipling must have also recognized that one could never eliminate enmity or create loyalty by tempering the imperial project with good deeds and some prosperity. How is a sense of superiority, then, to be combined with the cultural respect latent in many of Kipling's tales?
Kipling, of course, was sure of Britain's cultural superiority -- as indeed, America is of its own when confronted with the Taliban. But Kipling suggests that the superiority also entails sacrifice. All ''profit and gain,'' he asserts in his poem, must be sought not for oneself but for the other. Famine and sickness must be eliminated. Battles for peace must be waged. But nothing should be expected in return. Even if the project succeeds -- something Kipling believed would never happen in India -- imperial power should expect only ''the blame of those ye better/The hate of those ye guard.'' In the poem's imagery, the end of naïve childhood for the conquered is also the weary end of naïve childhood for the conqueror.
This makes the burden seem impossibly heavy and the conflicts irresolvable. But Kipling may have come closest to an ideal resolution in ''Kim.'' Kim, a master of cultural masquerade, is gradually recruited into what was then known as the Great Game: he becomes a British agent, joining a multicultural espionage network intent on preventing a Russian invasion. Kim's support for the Game is taken for granted. Kim never even ponders why he plays the Game.
Many critics have pointed to this as the novel's failure. But the point is that for Kim, the Great Game is an abstract commitment, an enterprise so encompassing it has little to do with any particular identity, not even that of the sahibs. Kim is not all that different from the Tibetan lama he travels with, who seeks enlightenment by shedding all forms of identity. This may be the closest Kipling came to a utopian vision in which the tensions of imperialism are resolved.
Kipling himself could never live up to such an ideal; neither, perhaps, could Kim. Britain certainly didn't. Some modified version of the hope lies behind the establishment of the new Afghan government and the humanitarian ambitions of the West: a hope that somehow old identities will dissolve, that the conqueror will spur no resentment and that internal peace will reign. But as this Great Game becomes deadly serious, as a region resembling Kim's becomes better understood, and as new forms of imperialism take shape, Kipling's notorious and tragic burden begins to seem unavoidable. So does the likelihood that there will be no utopian resolution of its latent contradictions.
A Summer of Reading
Continue reading the main story
Kipling Knew What the U.S. May Now Learn - The New York Times (nytimes.com)
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Hi-D, would you mind inserting whitespace into your article?
Thanks!
Thanks!
I am quite confident that Mary meant an INDIAN doctor. As in dot, not feather. She often has trouble communicating.
Griz3752
Retired, practising Curmudgeon
Seems like there's always a wave of freshly-in-need of funds folks, willing to try anything 'legal'
I investigated UBER when it 1st broke and after a review of my commitment/investment of assets & time versus the 'potential' returns, I opted not to go that way. My advantage was I didn't need to do something to feed family or keep a mortgage lender off my back; I just wanted to be busy.
I do know a couple who built a business out of UBER though. They had cards printed up and handed them out to every rider they had and, over time (about 6-7 months), built up a core of clients who called them, not UBER. Building from there they branched out into other related areas (or so I was told) and continued to grow. T hey still seem to be going strong last time I saw them.
I think if you're looking for opportunities, not just income, you'll always make your way.
I hope that is what you meant.
WOOHOOOO!!! Thanks!
PghPanther
Has No Life - Lives on TB
The question one must face is this in fact racist or fact on the information I present?...........
.........do I think Whites are superior to Blacks........no I don't
What I do think from the evidence of their collective behavior as a race that they are not as well adapted to the type of environment (aka civilization) that Whites have created
Conversely, Black are much better adapted to hunter gatherer existence in small tribal groups in hot climates that Whites are.................due to the fact that we evolved differently.
The problem is that it just so happens that everything Whites have been capable of............starting with the discovery of the scientific method in the late 1500s leading into the enlightenment and all applied sciences thereafter has lead to what we call first world modern society of which every other race wants to live in now.
If we all remained as hunter gatherers this wouldn't be the case.
Sub Sharan Africa enviornmental pressures unique to the Eastern plains of Africa about 1 million years ago led to the origins of the Homo Erectus/Sapien (btw.......Blacks are not the first humans but evolved like all the other races from some form of proto human on those plains in Africa......its just that Blacks developed their unique phenotype by remaining in Africa.........those other proto humans who left the plains developed into the other races over time from other environmental pressures. In the tree of life for humans Whites and other races don't truncate into Blacks........rather that all races including Blacks truncate into a proto human common ancestor...... so phenotypically Blacks and Whites (along with all other races) are cousins to each other with that tree of evolution.....Black phenotype is the result of those protohumans that remained in Africa and didn't leave.
But it was the demands not of cold and ice......(if it was Eskomos would have been walking on the moon).....but rather the 4 seasons that created growing and storing periods in human survival that select for strategic planning/long term planning and other traits that lead to modern civilizations. If Africa if you had any contemplation of time and cognitive strategy you ended up dead from predators so any kind of behavior for a large scale agricultural settlement never evolved within their sociobiological behavior. ....
That thin band or goldilocks zone on our planet of the four seasons was ideal for natural selection of cognitive contemplation......impulsive behavior and lack of cooperation with larger groups of people was detrimental to survival in that goldilocks zone of the 4 seasons.
That pressure on Whites took them from cave dwelling existence to the moon and splitting the atom in just 10,000 years....whereas even with a 40,000 year head start by Blacks on Whites and the 10,000 years since they have accomplished nothing in the way of applied science civilized behavior..........even their spoken only languages never conceived of fractions or percentages let alone any mathematical symbolism......it just wasn't necessary for their survival to incorporate such communication. ..................and as a result few if any Africans are capable of reasoning in that kind of abstract.......one of the big problems in todays education gap that no one can dare speak about.
Look you can be blunt and look at it 2 ways..................the Sub Sharan African environmental pressures became a dead end for humans to evolve into large scale civilizations.......
or...........
The Whites that evolved out of the goldilocks zone will probably end up destroying or replacing humanity if we aren't careful........
Either one could be considered a curse or a blessing depending on what environment you evolved in and which one you ended up in.......... or desire to be in today.
Now all this stated........if you can provide me strong objective evidence on a large scale basis that the races are all capable of adapting just as well to each others naturally selected evolutionary cognitive behaviors, then I will change my position in a heart beat....
Science.....not subjective opinion nor faith based claims is the barometer I use to best understand reality as we know it........
I'm not interested in being a racist nor seeking confirmation evidence to substantiate such a position.........I'm interested in the truth about why things are they way the are among races in today's world and always open to objective prudent evidence no matter what direction it takes me...........
So let me know if this is racist why you think so and present the evidence to the contrary........I'd be very interested in that.