ECON Gold and Silver news

bracketquant

Veteran Member
When was the last apocalypse? I think I missed it.

There hasn't been, not in the sense you are describing.
Everywhere where local or country structures have broken down gold an silver have remained valuable.
The ONLY things I can think of to bring on an 'apocalypse' would be a large nuclear exchange; a super volcano going off; an asteroid strike; possibly a real super plague (during the Black Death pms still had 'value'). And in any of those cases you probably are a goner anyway. Soon or late you and yours are dead. Then you go into the other worlds. As Kurt Vonnegut always said "so it goes".

You are a glass half full kind of person, or you are a glass half empty kind of person.
I think the odds of an apocalypse is rather low.

Not too long ago Americans loved their country and trusted their leaders. Not too long ago there was Law and Order.
Today? Not so much. Even in the Soviet Union and in Nazi Germany and today in China there has always been a black market. How many Americans, right now, will NEVER give up their guns?

Half full or half empty?
Sheep or guard dog? Guard dog or wolf? Wolf or sheep?c
When was the last "apocalypse"? (a misunderstood term, derived from the Greek, which means a revealing, not necessarily meaning a disaster)

Just about all of the time, in very poor countries, where people are near the edge of starvation. How about present day Gaza?

In America, go back to the first settlers until the late 1800s, 200+ years, where March was considered the starving month. All it would take today, is the grid to go down, for a near total collapse of this country. Then there is war, famine, pestilences, and who knows what (that I don't wish to think about).

If you've never farmed/gardened, you may not comprehend crop failure.

And, as for a black market, there has to BE A MARKET, first, to have such a market.
 

Johnny Twoguns

Senior Member
When was the last "apocalypse"? (a misunderstood term, derived from the Greek, which means a revealing, not necessarily meaning a disaster)

Just about all of the time, in very poor countries, where people are near the edge of starvation. How about present day Gaza?

In America, go back to the first settlers until the late 1800s, 200+ years, where March was considered the starving month. All it would take today, is the grid to go down, for a near total collapse of this country. Then there is war, famine, pestilences, and who knows what (that I don't wish to think about).

If you've never farmed/gardened, you may not comprehend crop failure.

And, as for a black market, there has to BE A MARKET, first, to have such a market.
I know history very well. And I grew up around farms when young. I also know the the original meaning of 'Apocalypse".

What I referenced above is the thought people keep using as an excuse: "what if there is an APOCALYPSE?"

I was replying to that reference. There has never been an "APOCALYSPE" on that scale, IE: world wide that affects everyone as if it is the End of the World or a real Global Mad Max, Second Coming, etc.

As for the shit hitting the fan, I've studied a lot of history; and a good deal of my early life was anything but easy or abundant.
 

West

Senior
After the SHTF in a currency collapse, I'm going exchange eggs, and stuff for PMs. Not to get away with not paying taxes, especially state taxes. A handful of states do recognize U.S. minted PMs coins as real currency and will take it to pay taxes. If they don't, then all bets are off. Especially if the states will only give face value.

In the Oklahoma state the politicians recognized the real value of PMs and have passed laws saying so. But if ever I start exchanging goods for PMs the state can either take what's fair, or esad. And if they don't take PMs for property tax after a currency collapse, shame on them, esad.
 

Hfcomms

EN66iq
And, as for a black market, there has to BE A MARKET, first, to have such a market.

Think about one of the worst situations a population could be in such as the Warsaw ghetto during the Nazi occupation of Poland. Commerce and marketing still took place.

iu



iu


People sold everything they had of value in order to buy food.


iu



Those that had metal or other valuables were more likely to eat than those that didn't. Maybe in a global famine there wouldn't be hardly any food at all but in most cases no matter how difficult the situation there is still a form of commerce with buying and selling going on.
 

Johnny Twoguns

Senior Member
Think about one of the worst situations a population could be in such as the Warsaw ghetto during the Nazi occupation of Poland. Commerce and marketing still took place.

iu



iu


People sold everything they had of value in order to buy food.


iu



Those that had metal or other valuables were more likely to eat than those that didn't. Maybe in a global famine there wouldn't be hardly any food at all but in most cases no matter how difficult the situation there is still a form of commerce with buying and selling going on.
As long as someone has something they NEED or want, and there are other people around with things, there will be markets, trades, or barters. And yes I understand you need to be able or willing to defend what you have.
 

Johnny Twoguns

Senior Member
After the SHTF in a currency collapse, I'm going exchange eggs, and stuff for PMs. Not to get away with not paying taxes, especially state taxes. A handful of states do recognize U.S. minted PMs coins as real currency and will take it to pay taxes. If they don't, then all bets are off. Especially if the states will only give face value.

In the Oklahoma state the politicians recognized the real value of PMs and have passed laws saying so. But if ever I start exchanging goods for PMs the state can either take what's fair, or esad. And if they don't take PMs for property tax after a currency collapse, shame on them, esad.
Good plan, but you need to realize that less than half of one percent of the US public have ANY precious metals. So it might take a long time for metal to start surfacing. Rafi Farber makes a point that it is up to the stackers to kick start the next economy with their metals; because they are among the very few that have any. Silver was the money of the People before 1980 or so. Very few can even recognize silver now. There are a few YT's out there showing a guy offering what looks to be a 10oz bar of silver or a stack of Hershey bars. EVERY single person took a candy bar instead of the silver.

It will take some time for you to collect any PMs.
 

West

Senior
Good plan, but you need to realize that less than half of one percent of the US public have ANY precious metals. So it might take a long time for metal to start surfacing. Rafi Farber makes a point that it is up to the stackers to kick start the next economy with their metals; because they are among the very few that have any. Silver was the money of the People before 1980 or so. Very few can even recognize silver now. There are a few YT's out there showing a guy offering what looks to be a 10oz bar of silver or a stack of Hershey bars. EVERY single person took a candy bar instead of the silver.

It will take some time for you to collect any PMs.
Yes and no. I'm still picking up junk silver jewelry and alike at estate, garage, antique stores and 2nd hand stores. Just got another real dime from the coin star at Walmart.

Of course it will take a bit of time, but not much IMHO.

Big IF.... government does outlaw all forms of real coin and barter, then it will be much longer. Would have to wait till the idiot bureaucrats become far and few in-between.
 

hiwall

Has No Life - Lives on TB
No one is going to trade in gold/silver right now. And not next month.
If the US Dollar goes bad and we get hyper inflation then the US Dollars will have very very little value. So little they will be useless for trade/barter. Without using fiat there are very few choices.

Option 1 is stuff. Almost anything might be something someone else wants. You might have something the other guy wants but maybe not. If not then no trading
.
Option 2 is trading with specific items that most people recognize as desirable items accepted by most traders. Examples might be easy to recognize foods like eggs or white rice or apples etc. It could be common ammo 22 or 223 or 9mm.

Trade will be in just common stuff for a while after any collapse. At some point people will want easier trade items that every trader will accept. Eventually that will include gold and silver. But might only include easy to recognize US mint coins like silver eagles, gold eagles, or junk silver coins.

Everyone says you can't eat gold. So if you know bad times are coming and you cash out your IRA's. If not gold/silver are you just going to buy $100,000 worth of white rice? Not a very practical solution. Yes buy food first until you have a good supply. Yes buy medical items until you have a good supply. Yes buy guns and ammo until you have a good supply. Maybe buy several more different items but at some point you will run out of room and run out of ideas for other worthwhile items to buy. Then you buy PMs.
 

Johnny Twoguns

Senior Member
If it gets bad enough the PMs are accepted more than fiat, food/fuel/medicine ain't gonna be "delivered" in any way as we currently expect! To survive that, you either need to be prepared to provide those for yourself for an undetermined length of time, or develop relationships with *producers* now... who MIGHT be willing to exchange some for PMs... or more likely in exchange for physical labor.

So much of our production is super efficient these days *only* because of readily available fossil fuels and/or electricity. The current excess availability of cheap grains is only possible with the use of fossil fuels... both to run machinery and for the huge amounts of fertilizer required to grow the current yields.

On our former farm, we could grow open pollinated heirloom grain corn, using manure and wood ash as our only fertilizer, and get around 100 bushels per acre. Compared to 1950, that was excellent production. These days, it's pathetic! But of course, a couple of acres could provide adequate energy feed to keep a milk cow or two (if we also utilized our rotational grazing system), a single hog plus 2 litters of babies, and chickens for eggs and meat.

We *might* be willing to barter excess meat and eggs... but would likely have a greater need for labor to help produce it than PMs. I've grown half an acre of corn by myself... using a Troy-bilt tiller for soil prep and weed control, and picking it by hand. It's a LOT of time and work!

We're looking into developing some sort of a Rube Goldberg set-up to automatically and constantly move our chicken "tractors" (mobile 16x8 foot coops that hold 50 meat birds comfortably, but could handle 100 very well IF they could be frequently moved to keep them on fresh grass. DS wants to see if he can attach a solar powered motor, geared WAY down, so the coop will move about 12-18 inches per hour.

Our current method requires two people and an ATV... one drives, while the other stays inside the coop and shoos the birds ahead with a leaf rake... without the second person, we ended up with injured birds, as they all run to the back of the coop! No one ever lost money UNDERestimating the intelligence of a chicken!

Anyway, my point is, do whatever is necessary to secure *at least* 2 years worth of calories, safe water and heating/cooling before you even start to accumulate more than a small amount of PMs for "emergency " use.

Sure, some folks may well come out of whatever situation "rich", by using PMs to purchase land or whatever... but it won't do you any good if you starve to death holding the deeds to your own town!

Summerthyme
Anyway, my point is, do whatever is necessary to secure *at least* 2 years worth of calories, safe water and heating/cooling before you even start to accumulate more than a small amount of PMs for "emergency " use.

Very few people have the space or ability to store that much. Just the facts of life.
 

school marm

Senior Member
Very few people have the space or ability to store that much. Just the facts of life.
When you recognize what is coming, you make the space to store the necessary items. Newlywed and still in school DD and DSIL will be living in a 500 sq ft apartment for the next eight months. They're taking their year's supply of food with them. Yes, it will be tight, but you do what you have to do. Priorities.
 

Johnny Twoguns

Senior Member
When you recognize what is coming, you make the space to store the necessary items. Newlywed and still in school DD and DSIL will be living in a 500 sq ft apartment for the next eight months. They're taking their year's supply of food with them. Yes, it will be tight, but you do what you have to do. Priorities.
That's about the size of my living room. A year's supply of food and two army cots. Got it. Either that or they have underestimated how much food they will need. They must be storing the guns and ammo, tents, fishing gear, garden tools, lawn mower, hoses, beds, cooking pots, pans, and fuel, car lubricants, water containers, and everything else on the roof. Not trying to be snarky but really. 22ft by 22ft is about 500 sq feet. Either that or they own nothing but food and some bedding.
 

school marm

Senior Member
That's about the size of my living room. A year's supply of food and two army cots. Got it. Either that or they have underestimated how much food they will need. They must be storing the guns and ammo, tents, fishing gear, garden tools, lawn mower, hoses, beds, cooking pots, pans, and fuel, car lubricants, water containers, and everything else on the roof. Not trying to be snarky but really. 22ft by 22ft is about 500 sq feet. Either that or they own nothing but food and some bedding.
Well, I did say they are newlyweds. Most don't start off married life with everything that their parents acquired in 30 years of marriage. And while they might underestimate their food needs, I won't. Maybe it depends on what you store for food. The basics were in our entryway for a week before they took them up to school. The food occupied maybe 8x3x4 space. Maybe a little more. If you're sticking mainly with flats of canned goods, frozen foods, and freeze-dried, then yes, you will possibly need more space. And most people don't store more than 2 weeks of water.
 

Johnny Twoguns

Senior Member
Well, I did say they are newlyweds. Most don't start off married life with everything that their parents acquired in 30 years of marriage. And while they might underestimate their food needs, I won't. Maybe it depends on what you store for food. The basics were in our entryway for a week before they took them up to school. The food occupied maybe 8x3x4 space. Maybe a little more. If you're sticking mainly with flats of canned goods, frozen foods, and freeze-dried, then yes, you will possibly need more space. And most people don't store more than 2 weeks of water.
Again, not to be snarky, but I don't think that would be enough food for 8 months if there was nothing else. I have a bit more preps than that in buckets and boxes of freeze dried/dehydrated, two freezers, cans, plus the rest. Wouldn't last two years if any of my kids got here to hunker down and that was all there was. I store about 11 weeks worth of rotating spring water based on my using 5 gallons a week for cooking and drinking. Again, if the kid(s).......

If utilities were out I don't anticipate the average person, or the average prepper has 12-18 cords of wood stacked up in the living room or in the garage if they live in a cold clime. And if things got that bad there would be no more propane coming. Not to argue, but it takes a LOT of stuff to keep alive for a year let alone two unless you live on or close to wilderness, have a farm, etc. I had several uncles/aunts who lived on farms and I remember the windmills and hand pump water wells and the barely electrified houses and barns on some of the oldest houses/barns etc. One uncle had a farm and diary herd. I've shoveled enough cow shit from the milking barn from 100 or so dairy cows to still have fond memories of childhood and teenage years spent on farms.

And if personal circumstance got bad, and you got kicked out, you may have to abandon most of that. I know that during covid many tens of thousands of west coasters moved into my State and drove up everything sky high an occupied almost all housing. I assume that also goes for storage facilities.

I don't anticipate a sudden civilization ending catastrophe. I got over worrying about that in the early 2000's. If it happens it happens, and if so and your luck is bad your preps may outlast you by several months or weeks.

I anticipate a degradation of society, a possible credit 'death' ala Bill Holter from a Friday to a Monday, and almost certainly now widespread crime and spreading violence; possibly a revolution/invasion. In all those cases a decent supply of PM's might serve you in better stead than trying to stock everything under the sun which simply is not realistic for the average person or the average prepper. I've thrown out plenty of food preps that got iffy being stored in storage rentals due to my traveling or moving elsewhere to work than my current home base.

My gut has always told me that I would know minimum two weeks a head of time if things were busy going to shit, for my to top up, and having enough liquid assets to do so. I have preps. If I had land I would have more. I don't, so I trust in luck, people my son and I know, and a handful or two of PM's :lol::lol:.
 

Greenspode

Veteran Member
Again, not to be snarky, but I don't think that would be enough food for 8 months if there was nothing else. I have a bit more preps than that in buckets and boxes of freeze dried/dehydrated, two freezers, cans, plus the rest. Wouldn't last two years if any of my kids got here to hunker down and that was all there was. I store about 11 weeks worth of rotating spring water based on my using 5 gallons a week for cooking and drinking. Again, if the kid(s).......

If utilities were out I don't anticipate the average person, or the average prepper has 12-18 cords of wood stacked up in the living room or in the garage if they live in a cold clime. And if things got that bad there would be no more propane coming. Not to argue, but it takes a LOT of stuff to keep alive for a year let alone two unless you live on or close to wilderness, have a farm, etc. I had several uncles/aunts who lived on farms and I remember the windmills and hand pump water wells and the barely electrified houses and barns on some of the oldest houses/barns etc. One uncle had a farm and diary herd. I've shoveled enough cow shit from the milking barn from 100 or so dairy cows to still have fond memories of childhood and teenage years spent on farms.

And if personal circumstance got bad, and you got kicked out, you may have to abandon most of that. I know that during covid many tens of thousands of west coasters moved into my State and drove up everything sky high an occupied almost all housing. I assume that also goes for storage facilities.

I don't anticipate a sudden civilization ending catastrophe. I got over worrying about that in the early 2000's. If it happens it happens, and if so and your luck is bad your preps may outlast you by several months or weeks.

I anticipate a degradation of society, a possible credit 'death' ala Bill Holter from a Friday to a Monday, and almost certainly now widespread crime and spreading violence; possibly a revolution/invasion. In all those cases a decent supply of PM's might serve you in better stead than trying to stock everything under the sun which simply is not realistic for the average person or the average prepper. I've thrown out plenty of food preps that got iffy being stored in storage rentals due to my traveling or moving elsewhere to work than my current home base.

My gut has always told me that I would know minimum two weeks a head of time if things were busy going to shit, for my to top up, and having enough liquid assets to do so. I have preps. If I had land I would have more. I don't, so I trust in luck, people my son and I know, and a handful or two of PM's :lol::lol:.
I don't know what you are trying to heat, but 12-18 CORDS of firewood to heat for 2 years? WTF...are you heating a warehouse?? That is 36-54 face cords. I can heat my house, in Upstate NY, pretty comfortably, with 8 or 9 face cords, or around 3 cords, for an entire winter. Heating only a couple of rooms to a lower temp, I could cut that in half.

And I have about 2 years worth of food and supplies in a 12x24 room, and no, I haven't underestimated the amount that I would need! Part of prepping is effectively evaluating ones anticipated needs. Things like your children showing up shouldn't be a "surprise", it should be part of the plan to begin with if it is a possibility. Every prepper is going to have a problem if a bunch of random people show up unexpectedly, but it shouldn't be hard to count those whose arrival is a likely and predictable outcome.

We all prep as best we can, within our own abilities and needs, and you're right, there are certainly MANY more challenges for those in an apartment, or with limited indoor and outdoor space. That being said, there are many here with a great degree of knowledge and experience, so remember that just because YOU can't do something, it doesn't mean no one can. You might learn something from those who not only CAN, but HAVE.
 

shane

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Priorities best as you can, IMO; family preps first, then some extra for barter & supporting select few local neighboring allies.

Then, if any paper wealth (dollars and/or paper investments) remaining, have some cash on hand and convert some of those paper investments into physically held PM’s.

Different things will hold higher value to others at different times, so being diversified, best as you can afford to be, would likely be prudent over the long term.

When TSHTF, the overwhelming majority of the population will be screwed financially, they historically always are anytime there’s a big wealth shift, and if you are like most then, primarily relying on typical retirement investments like 401k’s, equities and other paper dollar based investments, you’ll likely be screwed, too, just like the masses.

Gotta be positioning yourself unlike the majority to best avoid their fate.

Panic Early, Beat the Rush!
- Shane
 
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West

Senior
Usually carry a couple grand in cash. Years ago that was alot of cash. Today that's only about 6 runs to Wal-Mart. Stupid isn't?

Speaking of stupid, people burying fiat cash. One associate told me that's what he was going to do if the SHTF, he'll take all his cash out of bank, then bury it.

No, really...
 

Greenspode

Veteran Member
Usually carry a couple grand in cash. Years ago that was alot of cash. Today that's only about 6 runs to Wal-Mart. Stupid isn't?

Speaking of stupid, people burying fiat cash. One associate told me that's what he was going to do if the SHTF, he'll take all his cash out of bank, then bury it.

No, really...
Tell him to bag it so it stays dry......that way he can dig it up later, and burn it so he can boil some drinking water, or use it as toilet paper!
 

CaryC

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Not arguing with you either, and I do understand that in different places, people and circumstances, things can and are different, but:

I store about 11 weeks worth of rotating spring water based on my using 5 gallons a week for cooking and drinking. Again, if the kid(s).......

If utilities were out I don't anticipate the average person, or the average prepper has 12-18 cords of wood stacked up in the living room or in the garage if they live in a cold clime.
A general rule of thumb for survival, not living, is a gallon of water per person, per day. So your "5 gallons a week" isn't even subsistence level survival. And that's not brushing your teeth, or rinsing your face off, or washing your hands after the bathroom visit of any kind.

You don't know how much water you will use until you loose it. Ask me how I know.

2nd I can't tell if you're joking but am assuming you're not. 12-18 cords of wood stacked in the living room? Never going to happen. I've got 9 cords stacked out in a shed that is 14 X 40 feet. Which is roughly 3 years worth of heat. If it goes to using it for cooking......... Point is no one is ever going to get that amount of wood in a living room. Even if they are trying to hide or horde it.

Am just saying do the best you can, but use realistic calculations when trying to figure out what you need.

52 cans of tuna will give you one meal with meat a week for a year. Now figure what all you need to go with it to make a single meal.

365 gallons of water for a year on survival, boy you will be stinky. Nobody can do that, so have a source you can tap. Etc....
 

Hfcomms

EN66iq
When you recognize what is coming, you make the space to store the necessary items. Newlywed and still in school DD and DSIL will be living in a 500 sq ft apartment for the next eight months. They're taking their year's supply of food with them. Yes, it will be tight, but you do what you have to do. Priorities.

Good heads on their shoulders. They were raised right.
 

Hfcomms

EN66iq
Usually carry a couple grand in cash. Years ago that was alot of cash. Today that's only about 6 runs to Wal-Mart. Stupid isn't?

Speaking of stupid, people burying fiat cash. One associate told me that's what he was going to do if the SHTF, he'll take all his cash out of bank, then bury it.

No, really...

His cash will turn into dust in more ways than one. :jstr:
 

Doc1

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Unfortunately, you overlook the civilian deaths of war. As an example, in WWII, roughly 25 million soldiers died, while 50 million civilians died. Women have been protected from conscription, but not protected from dying, nor rape, nor enslavement, nor...

I didn't overlook it; I simply was not addressing it. My point was not that civilians die in war - of course they do - but that on a systemic basis, only men are and have been liable for the draft. This is not only true in the United States, but in virtually every other country.

Best
Doc
 

Johnny Twoguns

Senior Member
I don't know what you are trying to heat, but 12-18 CORDS of firewood to heat for 2 years? WTF...are you heating a warehouse?? That is 36-54 face cords. I can heat my house, in Upstate NY, pretty comfortably, with 8 or 9 face cords, or around 3 cords, for an entire winter. Heating only a couple of rooms to a lower temp, I could cut that in half.

And I have about 2 years worth of food and supplies in a 12x24 room, and no, I haven't underestimated the amount that I would need! Part of prepping is effectively evaluating ones anticipated needs. Things like your children showing up shouldn't be a "surprise", it should be part of the plan to begin with if it is a possibility. Every prepper is going to have a problem if a bunch of random people show up unexpectedly, but it shouldn't be hard to count those whose arrival is a likely and predictable outcome.

We all prep as best we can, within our own abilities and needs, and you're right, there are certainly MANY more challenges for those in an apartment, or with limited indoor and outdoor space. That being said, there are many here with a great degree of knowledge and experience, so remember that just because YOU can't do something, it doesn't mean no one can. You might learn something from those who not only CAN, but HAVE.
Yeah I went overboard on the wood; last place I used a wood heater was a forced air firebox. If elec went out that firebox would have been all but useless in a very cold place; we would have had to live in the basement if we couldn't get a small wood stove and piping in time; ala unexpected circumstance. We used something like 5-8 cords that winter.

I know there are a number of well prepped people here, and don't take what I say personally. I've been reading here for a couple of decades; the impression is that a goodly number of members here are old, and many sound very poor. Many of them can't afford a years worth of storage food. They say 70%+ Americans can't come up with $500-$1000 in an emergency. If you can afford the internet you can afford and ounce or two of silver every month.

The point I was making was a lot of people, including some here, can't do it. I've studied history in depth, and most of my 'survival' views stem from that; what happens when things REALLY go to shit, and what is most probable under the circumstances in the USA. Plus growing up poor and spending a couple of years as a traveling hippie with my life in a backpack showed me I can survive on very little if I have to.
Edited to add: and had a LOT of fun and adventures along the way :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I have enough liquid assets that I could, today, get set up with a whole lot more than I care to store due to reasons I've given above in recent posts.

I've studied a bit the financial aspects of the Great Depression. It was far more complex than "a lot of people got poor". Hundreds of thousands (millions by the end?) lost their homes and farms because they couldn't come up with tax money or pay loans. I am pretty sure what is coming will be much much worse than that. A lot of counties didn't have a single $5 dollar bill in them. Imagine that world; someone here said "if YOU knew what was coming". I think I do. It IS going to be much worse than the Great Depression for the vast majority. And a lot of people are going to lose everything because they can't pay taxes with eggs and potatoes, and they don't have any way to grease the palms of local magistrates.

"At the start of the Depression, a fifth of all American families still lived on farms. These families, however, were in deep trouble. Farm income fell by a staggering two-thirds during the Depression's first three years. A bushel of wheat that sold for $2.94 in 1920 dropped to $1 in 1929 and 30 cents in 1932."

"A staggering 273,000 Americans lost their homes in 1932, and even more suffered foreclosure in the following year. Americans simply did not have the wherewithal to keep up with mortgage payments when crushing stagflation hit."

Which is why I suggest PM's. It is not just insurance. Not just to keep what you currently have, if able under circumstances so dire most can't imagine it but if you have to move and can't take much with you, you have liquid assets. And I feel that is more important right now than ever before.

A lot of people can't afford a years supply of food. Everyone can afford an ounce of silver. An ounce of silver is keeping a lot of people fed in some S American countries right now. Fewer than half of one percent of Americans have an ounce of silver. If things get as bad as many experts such as Rick Rule, Peter Shiff, Bill Holter and many others think, a few pounds of silver could be more important than 500 pounds of potatoes. So, best have to have a little everything, eh?

Those are just my views. People are going to do as they want and can afford. I'm not trying to offend those who are well set up. I simply said a lot of people can't do what you can, and trying to find enough money to store endless pounds of food may not be the best strategy for the way I am viewing things, which is an almost total collapse of the value of "money" and modern assets. It is just my humble opinion and how I am planning for the coming asset crash. Hyper inflation, then hyper deflation, and a group of corrupt dictators in charge.
 
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Doc1

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Here's some more thread drift regarding food, but hey, it's my thread so I figure I can drift away ;-)

There have been several threads regarding food storage and the space it occupies. I will offer one suggestion to store a lot of food in minimal space: Buy white rice and large containers of brown gravy mix. White rice doesn't take up much space considering the amount of food it represents. No, I'm - obviously - not suggesting that anyone only eats white rice, but will note that it goes well with a wide variety of other foods and will help to stretch your other food supplies. When combined with brown gravy (or other condiments) it can almost make a tasty meal by itself.

One of the most important aspects of food consumption is that the diner feels full after the meal. A skimpy, but otherwise healthy meal will leave the diner still feeling hungry and unsatisfied. In a survival situation this can lead to poor morale and possibly even people stealing food. Rice, corn meal (or grits), mashed potatoes, pasta and similar foods can provide the bulk that leaves people feeling full after eating. Similarly, dried beans - though taking up more room - are nutritious and provide bulk.

I'm originally from New Orleans and grew up on Creole and Cajun cooking. It spoiled me in that I always want tasty foods. To this end, (lots of) condiments, gravy mixes and spices are an essential part of our food preps. There have been documented cases of people starving because they didn't like the taste of food that was available. This is known as food fatigue and it's a real issue. I advise everyone to learn to cook tasty, simple meals and learn to use spices to good advantage.

Lastly, I rarely see preppers talk about storing a substantial supply of multivitamins with their food preps. If your diet is suddenly reduced to simpler foods, vitamins can be a very important part of your preps.

Best
Doc
 

Kathy in FL

Administrator
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Think about one of the worst situations a population could be in such as the Warsaw ghetto during the Nazi occupation of Poland. Commerce and marketing still took place.

iu



iu


People sold everything they had of value in order to buy food.


iu



Those that had metal or other valuables were more likely to eat than those that didn't. Maybe in a global famine there wouldn't be hardly any food at all but in most cases no matter how difficult the situation there is still a form of commerce with buying and selling going on.

Correct ... somewhat. The metals was a barter item that someone was willing to exchange for. It wasn't necessarily viewed as currency or money. The only reason they were able to use it is because someone wanted it because they could trade it for more trade/barter goods to keep the process cycling.

If ... IF ... the government or situational facts ... are able to break that process cycle it is going to make PMs mostly valueless except as something to hold onto a possibly use to transfer wealth to the next generation.

PMs are a hedge, a bet, possibly insurance. They aren't a panacea. Like anything else, don't bet more than you can afford to lose and don't assume the world is coming to end and your PMs will see you through it. The kind of inflation or deflation that needs to happen to bring PMs back as a common currency will bring a whole slew of other problems and I personally think they will phase in a fully digital currency and controls before that happens.

ETA: Of course a digital currency and concurrent controls brings with it its own set of numerous problems.
 
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Southside

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Oh and Gold up $20 and silver up .17
And the Dullah is at 105. This is not working out for them, at all!
 

summerthyme

Administrator
_______________
Here's some more thread drift regarding food, but hey, it's my thread so I figure I can drift away ;-)

There have been several threads regarding food storage and the space it occupies. I will offer one suggestion to store a lot of food in minimal space: Buy white rice and large containers of brown gravy mix. White rice doesn't take up much space considering the amount of food it represents. No, I'm - obviously - not suggesting that anyone only eats white rice, but will note that it goes well with a wide variety of other foods and will help to stretch your other food supplies. When combined with brown gravy (or other condiments) it can almost make a tasty meal by itself.

One of the most important aspects of food consumption is that the diner feels full after the meal. A skimpy, but otherwise healthy meal will leave the diner still feeling hungry and unsatisfied. In a survival situation this can lead to poor morale and possibly even people stealing food. Rice, corn meal (or grits), mashed potatoes, pasta and similar foods can provide the bulk that leaves people feeling full after eating. Similarly, dried beans - though taking up more room - are nutritious and provide bulk.

I'm originally from New Orleans and grew up on Creole and Cajun cooking. It spoiled me in that I always want tasty foods. To this end, (lots of) condiments, gravy mixes and spices are an essential part of our food preps. There have been documented cases of people starving because they didn't like the taste of food that was available. This is known as food fatigue and it's a real issue. I advise everyone to learn to cook tasty, simple meals and learn to use spices to good advantage.

Lastly, I rarely see preppers talk about storing a substantial supply of multivitamins with their food preps. If your diet is suddenly reduced to simpler foods, vitamins can be a very important part of your preps.

Best
Doc
I'd add dry beans to that (again, very nutrient dense and compact in storage), and several good books for your local area on wildcrafting... identifying edible plants. Most "weeds" are packed with vitamins and minerals.

As far as multivitamins... definitely store them, but realize they don't keep more than a couple years past their "use by" date. We dumped probably close to a hundred bucks worth of older vitamins... multis and vitamin B complex. They smelled awful, and had turned dark.

I suspect you could keep them in the freezer to extend their life... and *possibly* vacuum sealing or dumping them into glass jars and sealing with O2 absorbers.

While I absolutely agree many can't afford to buy 2 years of food all at once, most folks who are *truly* poor (not just cash strapped) are eligible for food stamps, and many areas of the country have food pantries and regular food give aways.
Again, I KNOW there are exceptions... medical conditions or whatever that mandate eating the best diet possible now.

But for anyone who truly believes hard times are coming... start now! Scope out restaurant supply stores... almost all will sell to the public. Buy 50# of beans, rice and oatmeal. Go to the dollar store and buy $12.50 worth of spices (they are all $1.25 stores around here now)

Research recipes on the internet... or cancel your home internet and go to the library! Or go to a secondhand bookstore and grab some depression era cookbooks!

My mom barely survived the Depression. She told of weeks when all they had to eat was 1 bowl of oatmeal (dry... no sugar or milk) for breakfast and 1 slice of (homemade... probably sourdough, and certainly no milk or eggs) bread spread with lard for lunch. In warmer weather, the kids would scavenge any wild fruit they could find... and even in the cities, back then, there were plenty of empty lots and lanes where brambles or wild apples grew.

When they visited cousins in the country, they thought they were rich! I saw that "farm" as a young teen... a simple, 4 room farmhouse with a laundry shed attached in the back... bare wood floors with spaces between the planks showing the dirt below; it must have been bitter cold in winter. The only insulation was layers of newspapers on the walls.

But in an open shed out back, they had chickens, a hog and a milk cow. And Mom would still recall the "wonderful" meals those "rich" cousins ate every day! She and my Dad made a very good life, but she never forgot where she came from, and never lost appreciation for having plenty.

If people would start today, and make the choice to "eat poor" (not "lard on sourdough bread" poor, but oatmeal instead of boxed cereal or Poptarts) I'll bet they could have 6 months of calories stored within 6 months.

For many, they could sell some unused "toys"... or even ones they enjoy occasionally! It all comes down to priorities.

2 years is the ideal... as a farmer, I've seen too many crop failures to be comfortable with less than that. But 1 year is better than 99% will have, and if you include seeds, it can get you through to a new harvest.

I know there are many who live in apartments and have valid reasons to not be able to change. Their most important prep is a relationship with the Lord... heck, that's the most important prep for all of us. Because given what is coming, many (regardless of preps) aren't going to survive.

It's called life! The basic rules of survival were temporarily suspended in the developed countries in the last century, but as Kipling observed, the Gods of the Copybook Headings won't be amused.

Summerthyme
 
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Hfcomms

EN66iq
PMs are a hedge, a bet, possibly insurance. They aren't a panacea. Like anything else, don't bet more than you can afford to lose and don't assume the world is coming to end and your PMs will see you through it. The kind of inflation or deflation that needs to happen to bring PMs back as a common currency will bring a whole slew of other problems and I personally think they will phase in a fully digital currency and controls before that happens.

You are an intelligent woman Kathy and you don’t ’get it’ and probably never will. Metal in your possession is not a ‘bet’ nor speculation. A hundred years ago you could walk in your bank with a one ounce gold coin and walk out with a $20 FRN (and vice versa) and both the coin and note would buy you either a beef cow or a top notch suit of clothing. Fast forward a hundred years and that one ounce coin still buys you that cow or suit while you $20 note buys you a take out pizza (maybe).

One has held it’s value the other has not.

This is verifiable history for thousands of years. Will it be future history? While anything is possible the smartest money in the room (central banks) especially in the east are buying and vaulting record amounts of gold over the last two years and the BIS (Bank of International Settlements) which is the central bank to the central banks classified gold as a tier one asset as liquid as cash back in 2019 I believe.

When you say don’t bet more than you can lose you act like metal is a cryptocurrency or stock which can have value today and be worthless tomorrow. There is no better instrument to preserve your purchasing power over time and it is an asset that is not a liability of someone else in a bankrupting world with failing currencies. After you are prepped as much as possible with everything we talk about every day there is not a safer or more undervalued asset in the world than physical metal.

You don’t have metal to become wealthy as they are wealth and whereas I don’t view them as investments I would note that fortunes have been made in buying out of favor assets at bargain basement prices and gold but especially silver are the most undervalued and unwanted assets in the world except for the smart money including the central banks and governments in the east that at are buying them hand over foot.

The only bet you are making with metal in your possession is that it can be stolen but there are ways to mitigate that. Many make the error of valuing metal in a failing currency unit such as dollars, euros and yen. I value them in ounces in the safe.

I actually think in this present environment that you are gambling and taking a bet by holding a lot of rental properties in an environment that more and more of your tenants won’t be able to pay you and are paying in rapidly depreciating dollars while your taxes and maintenance costs keep going up. And during the next crisis like covid, the government won’t let you evict them for non payment but the tax man will be more than glad to take your rentals with tax liens like during the Great Depression.

I’ve never lost an hour of sleep over the metal in the safe. I hope your rentals let you sleep at night.
 

CaryC

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Several good posts in this gold and silver thread, LOL

Agreed with Doc1, Johnny and Summerthyme. A few simple basic ingredients and lots of spices of various kinds go a long way, a long way.

I would only add whether it's gold or silver, bullets, nails, bandaids, etc, and especially food. Rather than looking at the elephant in the room and panicking, remember the old adage, how do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time.

And one of the things me and SB started doing, and gobs of others was: use one (can, or quantity of anything) buy two. Anyone even those with little money can do that. Use a can/bag of beans buy 2 to replace. It is a slow process, one bite at a time, but so long as "the end" is put off, you will build up storage. And if "the end" comes before you got a lot, you did what you could.

The only thing that would differ on is PM's, I don't recommend using one. But rather you can start small and that would be with silver. It costs less now and is more usable in a "the end" event. If you want to go with Gold then set some money aside like a savings account and when you have enough to buy some, buy.

Lots of reputable places I use Goldline, no problems and they will buy back your purchase at any time at whole sale prices. For Silver old coins can be had at pawn shops, use a reputable one, and know the daily spot price when you go, and from time to time Doc1 offers some.

Key to PM's IMHO is don't put them on credit, pay cash. If you can't afford to pay cash/check/debit card you can't afford them.
 

Johnny Twoguns

Senior Member
Correct ... somewhat. The metals was a barter item that someone was willing to exchange for. It wasn't necessarily viewed as currency or money. The only reason they were able to use it is because someone wanted it because they could trade it for more trade/barter goods to keep the process cycling.

If ... IF ... the government or situational facts ... are able to break that process cycle it is going to make PMs mostly valueless except as something to hold onto a possibly use to transfer wealth to the next generation.

PMs are a hedge, a bet, possibly insurance. They aren't a panacea. Like anything else, don't bet more than you can afford to lose and don't assume the world is coming to end and your PMs will see you through it. The kind of inflation or deflation that needs to happen to bring PMs back as a common currency will bring a whole slew of other problems and I personally think they will phase in a fully digital currency and controls before that happens.
Read Mila 18. What people often forget that even in war you can bribe with PM's. They have almost NEVER been 'useless' in real life. Financial assets on the other hand? Almost always become next to useless when a countries' currency dies, as ours is doing right now.

Jews who had gold and silver traded it or used it to bribe guards, including SS guards and officers. I remember a LOT of boat people were able to flee the take over of S Vietnam bribed the guards with gold and silver. Go read the bosnia war guy or Ferfal in S America. The metals NEVER loose their luster.

PM's are far more than a hedge right now. They will shortly be critical. They are, and always have been, money. Take your FRN's, stock certificates, real estate papers to any country in the world and try to trade them for some food. Good luck. Take gold or silver to any and every country in the world and people will trade you for it.

WE now have to print a trillion dollars every 100 days and that is not enough. Lol. I mean seriously, if people can't see the end is in sight.

A bro of mine has a great analogy. When he started driving a gallon of gas cost one silver quarter. One silver quarter now, 50 years later, will STILL buy a gallon of gas. Even as suppressed as hard as they are in the USA they have retained far more purchasing power than the Feds made up currency.

Rick Rule recently said IF this is the real silver run, it will "reach heights that very few can even imagine, except for the most greedy". I just watched a podcast where he said "gold could easily reach $9000 an oz". He just doesn't talk like that. Not for the 27 years I've listened to him. He NEVER slips into hyperbole.

He knows something that we don't.

I'll take my chances with some PM's instead of rapidly failing US asset classes.
 
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Johnny Twoguns

Senior Member
Here's some more thread drift regarding food, but hey, it's my thread so I figure I can drift away ;-)

There have been several threads regarding food storage and the space it occupies. I will offer one suggestion to store a lot of food in minimal space: Buy white rice and large containers of brown gravy mix. White rice doesn't take up much space considering the amount of food it represents. No, I'm - obviously - not suggesting that anyone only eats white rice, but will note that it goes well with a wide variety of other foods and will help to stretch your other food supplies. When combined with brown gravy (or other condiments) it can almost make a tasty meal by itself.

One of the most important aspects of food consumption is that the diner feels full after the meal. A skimpy, but otherwise healthy meal will leave the diner still feeling hungry and unsatisfied. In a survival situation this can lead to poor morale and possibly even people stealing food. Rice, corn meal (or grits), mashed potatoes, pasta and similar foods can provide the bulk that leaves people feeling full after eating. Similarly, dried beans - though taking up more room - are nutritious and provide bulk.

I'm originally from New Orleans and grew up on Creole and Cajun cooking. It spoiled me in that I always want tasty foods. To this end, (lots of) condiments, gravy mixes and spices are an essential part of our food preps. There have been documented cases of people starving because they didn't like the taste of food that was available. This is known as food fatigue and it's a real issue. I advise everyone to learn to cook tasty, simple meals and learn to use spices to good advantage.

Lastly, I rarely see preppers talk about storing a substantial supply of multivitamins with their food preps. If your diet is suddenly reduced to simpler foods, vitamins can be a very important part of your preps.

Best
Doc
$200 will still get you around 100 lbs of rice and 100 lbs of pinto beans at Costco. Both swell up to about twice their size. I prefer soy sauce than gravy but I have both plus a goodly supply of spices PLUS 16 magic packets of non hybrid seeds to grow various herbs. Here's a hint for some, make sure to have some seeds (non hybrid of course) to grow some hot peppers.

LOTS of people love or are 'addicted' to hot foods.

If you have access to anything to make any kind of vinegar, like say apples, and you can grow Tabasco or cayenne peppers, walla, Louisiana or Tabasco style hot sauce. You will be very popular at the local farmer's market if you live in the north and inter State commerce gets sketchy.
 

Johnny Twoguns

Senior Member
Not arguing with you either, and I do understand that in different places, people and circumstances, things can and are different, but:


A general rule of thumb for survival, not living, is a gallon of water per person, per day. So your "5 gallons a week" isn't even subsistence level survival. And that's not brushing your teeth, or rinsing your face off, or washing your hands after the bathroom visit of any kind.

You don't know how much water you will use until you loose it. Ask me how I know.

2nd I can't tell if you're joking but am assuming you're not. 12-18 cords of wood stacked in the living room? Never going to happen. I've got 9 cords stacked out in a shed that is 14 X 40 feet. Which is roughly 3 years worth of heat. If it goes to using it for cooking......... Point is no one is ever going to get that amount of wood in a living room. Even if they are trying to hide or horde it.

Am just saying do the best you can, but use realistic calculations when trying to figure out what you need.

52 cans of tuna will give you one meal with meat a week for a year. Now figure what all you need to go with it to make a single meal.

365 gallons of water for a year on survival, boy you will be stinky. Nobody can do that, so have a source you can tap. Etc....
I was being facetious with the wood. I thought about going back and editing it but then I thought, what the hell I'll just leave it like that. I have running water that I bath in. I use the spring water ONLY for cooking and drinking. I have a stream about 5 blocks away, and I have filters to build a water filter with food grade buckets if it comes to that. IF it looks like it might come to that I will go out and get some 50 gallon food grades barrels like I used to have and fill them with drinking water. I grew up with peoples where sauna's were a way of life so I've steamed to get clean. I already know what kind of charcoal and fine sand to buy if it looks like I may have to pre-filter the stream water. I have a hydro dam about 30 miles away so baring an EMP or terrorism I think electricity for the most part will stay up, which means for the most part water will stay up for a while. I have running water or lakes within 20 miles in every direction. If things look really dicey and there is enough time I'll look to relocate to a more wild area, which is about 15 miles to the west or 30 miles to the east or north.

9 cords wouldn't last two years in that chateau style house that I referenced living in for a winter. I've been prepping on and off since the mid 90's, and I used to prep for 5. I have some idea of what I am doing. I'm just not trying to have everything I think I could possibly need to survive for long in a total grid down situation, because I think the odds are not leaning that way, and it is one reason I live where I do. I am surrounded by mountains, lakes, and rivers, and we know people here; the majority of THEM are NOT preppers. We know them, and they grew up here so they know a whole lot more people, many with land. Some of them are VERY good hunters and one is a trapper who still runs trap lines. I also trapped and skinned, and tanned, various critters in MN when I was a teenager. I grew up with lots of farming relatives and spent a lot of time in the country.

If things just continue to degrade life might become more poor but not insurmountable. If things really get bad I'm pretty sure a good number of people will band together. There is a lot of game in the woods, and if the gasoline ran out very few here would be able to get to it. I don't have land but we know people who do or have friends that do.

My young Marine buddy and his wife next door are fairly impressed with some of my skills and knowledge, and they have a group of young Marine vets with combat experience to band together if the shit really hits the fan. They are preppers but I don't think they have nearly as much as I do. I think we will make a deal if things get really bad, we already have talking long and hard about banding up. He likes drinking with me; and he also has had a lot, a LOT, of strange interesting weird woo woo psychic things happen so we get each other on levels the average person won't. The guy has been around, and has done a lot of interesting stuff.

The biggest draw back is there are a few tens of thousands of people in the valley we live in. Although I am sure there are a lot of preppers here, I am sure the majority are not. So if things got very bad I'd be looking to get out of dodge. I have probably one of the best places in the State for various reasons picked out, if it were possible with what is coming.

My comment about having 55 gallons of spring water was in reference to the comment that most people have a two week supply. I have about an 11 week supply if things just suddenly stopped and I have the means to get more if I don't get sniped along the way with my young combat vet Marine neighbor. I was not suggesting that 55 gallons will be enough to live on for long.

I can go out and buy $XXX worth of food no problem, and my gut has always said I WILL know weeks ahead of time when it may become time to do that. I have a pretty powerful guardian Angel who has made some, or helped make some truly spectacular once in a lifetime events happen. ..... several times :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:. I'm not worried right now about not having two years worth of food, or getting a pile of it to impress a little local "band of brothers" if it comes to that.

Oh, I should add, lots of horses here. So if there is a slow degradation and not an all at once collapse, and if PMs do go up in value, then I'm pretty sure I can do some wily horse trading even if gas becomes sparse, which reminds me, if there is time and I think it prudent I will buy a book or two on gasifier engines.

We shall see what comes.
 
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Hfcomms

EN66iq
Also agree with what Doc had to say about the food preps. Even if one is just starting out white rice is pretty cheap and if you add beans to that you have a complete protein. Having various gravy packets and spices to keep it interesting is important. That was about the first thing I did prepping wise along with corn and wheat berries.

I have probably close to #500 of white rice and about the same in red winter wheat purchased before Y2K. I use the wheat regularly for baking and have just left the rice alone because as I age all that starch goes right to the belly. But during a real food crisis that starch won’t make you as fat as it does now and the rice/wheat/gravy/spices will last longer than I will.

As long as there is stuff to buy in the store its never too late to prep and whatever you can do now will still put you 90% ahead of everyone else. The task is daunting and the hour is late but everyone can do something to improve your situation. Do what you can do and God will provide the rest but you still have to do what you can do otherwise we are presuming on God’s grace.
 

Kathy in FL

Administrator
_______________
You are an intelligent woman Kathy and you don’t ’get it’ and probably never will. Metal in your possession is not a ‘bet’ nor speculation. A hundred years ago you could walk in your bank with a one ounce gold coin and walk out with a $20 FRN (and vice versa) and both the coin and note would buy you either a beef cow or a top notch suit of clothing. Fast forward a hundred years and that one ounce coin still buys you that cow or suit while you $20 note buys you a take out pizza (maybe).

One has held it’s value the other has not.

This is verifiable history for thousands of years. Will it be future history? While anything is possible the smartest money in the room (central banks) especially in the east are buying and vaulting record amounts of gold over the last two years and the BIS (Bank of International Settlements) which is the central bank to the central banks classified gold as a tier one asset as liquid as cash back in 2019 I believe.

When you say don’t bet more than you can lose you act like metal is a cryptocurrency or stock which can have value today and be worthless tomorrow. There is no better instrument to preserve your purchasing power over time and it is an asset that is not a liability of someone else in a bankrupting world with failing currencies. After you are prepped as much as possible with everything we talk about every day there is not a safer or more undervalued asset in the world than physical metal.

You don’t have metal to become wealthy as they are wealth and whereas I don’t view them as investments I would note that fortunes have been made in buying out of favor assets at bargain basement prices and gold but especially silver are the most undervalued and unwanted assets in the world except for the smart money including the central banks and governments in the east that at are buying them hand over foot.

The only bet you are making with metal in your possession is that it can be stolen but there are ways to mitigate that. Many make the error of valuing metal in a failing currency unit such as dollars, euros and yen. I value them in ounces in the safe.

I actually think in this present environment that you are gambling and taking a bet by holding a lot of rental properties in an environment that more and more of your tenants won’t be able to pay you and are paying in rapidly depreciating dollars while your taxes and maintenance costs keep going up. And during the next crisis like covid, the government won’t let you evict them for non payment but the tax man will be more than glad to take your rentals with tax liens like during the Great Depression.

I’ve never lost an hour of sleep over the metal in the safe. I hope your rentals let you sleep at night.
The problem is that was a long time ago. The kind of worldwide situation that would move enough governments out of the way to allow PMs to become viable the way many people believe that should be also brings with it other realities.

Put it ghis way, I’m sure the Chinese never thought that pressed blocks of tea leaves would stop being currency. Heck, tea was even a factor in the American Revolution. Taxing and controlling tea is still a factor today, just not in the US. But pressed blocks of tea leaves are no longer currency, but can be used as barter.

I am not saying that PMs don’t hold some innate value. What i am saying is that my opinion is that it won’t ever act as currency again. I don’t even see a PM backed currency happen because as we all know is if you don’t hold physical, you don’t own it.

We also know that a digital currency is coming. How quickly they will phase it in is the question. The fact that so many people use debit cards and online banking tells me how much easier that phase in will be than most people anticipate.

Once those controls go into place forget PMs as a currency. It may remain a barter item, but only so long as it can’t be excluded from use in fulfilling people’s needs of obtaining what may be required to purchse food, shelter, food, and the payment of taxes.

I am fine with people holding a different opinion. People have the right to choose how they spend the money they generate. So long as my taxes don’t go to pay their upkeep IF they find their life preps are insufficient.
 

Johnny Twoguns

Senior Member
Associate has a still and is planning on making spicy and herb whiskies...


But those will trade good. And even go good with long pork.

:D

Gold finished up 38.10. Silver up 38 cents
CNN says go for the GLD; physical is too much bother:

 
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