USA Facing $1 billion deficit, Arizona sharply limits welfare

[Melodi]

This is interesting because as the article states further down they are actually dealing with Federal not State Funds - I do have concerns as to what happens after one year -in the short term anyone who can will leave Arizona (the intention I'm sure) but is Arizona ready to open orphanages and workhouses for the rest (as children are being cut off too that's unusual) or will they simply allow families to starve under bridges or allow the reopening of breadlines? I can understand running out of money, but actually Arizona is simply using their block grants to reorganize it and it isn't State money...it will be interesting to see if this "experiment" works and what happens if other States adopt it - and before cheering with "good job Arizona" ask yourself if the kids are better off with a non-working parent or in an orphanage, that was the choice in the Great Depression (my Grandmother made it and lived with starving children -the real type of hunger) it may come to this but I hadn't expected to see history repeat quite so soon - Melodi

Facing $1 billion deficit, Arizona sharply limits welfare

By RYAN VAN VELZER
Associated Press
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AP Photo/Ross D. Franklin

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Facing $1 billion deficit, Arizona sharply limits welfare

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PHOENIX (AP) -- Facing a $1 billion budget deficit, Arizona's Republican-led Legislature has reduced the lifetime limit for welfare recipients to the shortest window in the nation.

Low-income families on welfare will now have their benefits cut off after just 12 months.

As a result, the Arizona Department of Economic Security will drop at least 1,600 families - including more than 2,700 children - from the state's federally funded welfare program on July 1, 2016.

The cuts of at least $4 million reflect a prevailing mood among the lawmakers in control in Arizona that welfare, Medicaid and other public assistance programs are crutches that keep the poor from getting back on their feet and achieving their potential.

"I tell my kids all the time that the decisions we make have rewards or consequences, and if I don't ever let them face those consequences, they can't get back on the path to rewards," Republican Sen. Kelli Ward, R-Lake Havasu City, said during debate on the budget. "As a society, we are encouraging people at times to make poor decisions and then we reward them."

Cutting off these benefits after just one year isn't fair, said Jessica Lopez, 23, who gave birth to her son while living in a domestic violence shelter and has struggled to hold onto jobs because she has dyslexia and didn't finish high school.

"We're all human," said Lopez, who got $133 per month for about a year until she qualified for a larger federal disability check. "Everybody has problems. Everybody is different. When people ask for help, we should be able to get it without having to be looked at wrong."

Most states impose a five-year limit on welfare benefits. Thirteen states limit it to two years or less, and Texas has a tiered time limit that can be as little as 12 months but allows children to continue to receive funding even after the parents have been cut, welfare policy analyst Liz Schott said.

Long-term welfare recipients are often the most vulnerable, suffering from mental and physical disabilities, poor job histories and little education, she said. But without welfare, they'll likely show up in other ways that will cost taxpayers, from emergency rooms to shelters to the criminal justice system, Schott said.

"The reason they are on public assistance is because many of them are not really succeeding in the workforce," said Schott, a senior fellow at the Center of Budget and Policy Priorities, a non-partisan research organization.

Arizona's Legislature cut the budgets of an array of programs to meet the governor's no-tax-increase pledge. The bill that included the welfare cuts received overwhelming support earlier this spring from Republicans, with just one Democrat voting in favor.

The Legislature also passed a law seeking to force anyone getting Medicaid to have a job, and cutting off those benefits after five years. And Republican leaders are suing their own state to block a centerpiece of President Barack Obama's health care law, which expanded Medicaid to give more poor people health insurance.

If they prevail, more than 300,000 poor Arizonans could lose their coverage.

Republican Gov. Doug Ducey's office called all these cuts necessary to protect taxpayers and K-12 classrooms - even though the source of the money is the federal government.

Arizona's welfare is entirely federally funded through the Temporary Assistance for Needy Families program, but that money comes in a block grant, and Republicans want to use it instead for agencies such as the state's Department of Child Safety.

"The bipartisan, balanced budget passed by the Legislature and signed by the governor protects Arizona's most vulnerable, while avoiding a tax increase," said Daniel Scarpinato, governor's office spokesman.

Democratic Rep. Andrew Sherwood, D-Tempe, said the Republicans made these cuts hastily, voting in the middle of the night in March to avoid transparency.

"This is a very small investment, but it is critical to people who need it the most," Sherwood said. "You're talking about desperate families, those who are unemployed and underemployed. Single mothers and parents with kids."

Former President Bill Clinton signed the block grant law in 1997, making good on a campaign promise to "end welfare as we know it." The federal government still requires states to make sure recipients have a job, are looking for work, going to school or trying to go to school, but states retain broad discretion in imposing restrictions.

© 2015 The Associated Press.
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/storie...ME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2015-05-18-20-11-03
©2015 The Associated Press.

 

[Doat]

Hit up the UN and Mexico for aid.

 

[Sleeping Cobra]

With everything going on, everyone will be in poverty. The cost of basic necessities are climbing fast, plus endless climbing taxes.

 

[marsh]

Federal block grants have minimum level requirements/conditions. They also have matches required of local government. I don't think the state legislature can just reconfigure the grant conditions. If they are not met down to the last decimal, the feds come after the state/local government for reimbursement.

Perhaps the new Arizona plan is offering only the minimal federal levels and cutting any additional benefits the state has been offering. States also do have the right to decline federal grants all together, but then they must fully fund whatever plan they have at the local level. I also believe that some experimental plans are allowed with approval. I believe Michigan did this several years back.

 

[bbbuddy]

Bunches of them can go back to Mexico...

 

[Bardou]

It will be called "welfare dumping." Arizona will pay for a one way ticket out of Arizona to some other state that will take care of these leeches. California can't take them as we don't have any water, or money to support them. No one will want them as the only thing they're skilled at is gaming the system. As it is, I can hardly stand going to the store and seeing all the food they buy with our money - stuff I don't even buy for my family. The worse is seeing a baby in the cart and another one in the oven.

 

[Dennis Olson]

and before cheering with "good job Arizona" ask yourself if the kids are better off with a non-working parent or in an orphanage, that was the choice in the Great Depression (my Grandmother made it and lived with starving children -the real type of hunger) it may come to this but I hadn't expected to see history repeat quite so soon


Bullshit. That was then, this is now. Those days and approaches to poverty will NEVER come back. So you're evidently beating on a strawman. You can stop now.


ETA: And the real question to ask is: are the kids better off with a non-working (welfare) parent, one who has NEVER worked, and is herself a child of a non-working (welfare) parent, who was also a child of a non-working (welfare) parent? Where, exactly, does one draw the line and say "ENOUGH. IT STOPS HERE, NOW!"

 

[Dozdoats]

The future is not evenly divided. There is no such thing as "fair." Eventually other peoples' money runs out.

With wild animals in nature, we talk about "carrying capacity." Well, there is such a thing as carrying capacity for humans in any society as well. Reality is a bitch on wheels sometimes.

 

[helen]

The 23 year single mother featured in the article knew she had no diploma and no job before she got pregnant.

 

[Dozdoats]

No doubt her panties just got away from her, Helen

 

[Kathy in FL]

Tough choices have to be made and people need to learn to understand that the net that catches you is just an illusion. It is actually a web that ensnares you with the government being the big, black spider that will wind you up and suck you dry.

 

[pirate9933]

Hit up the UN and Mexico for aid.

I agree but how about the africans that have been here for many generations. They are professional welfare recipients. They understand that have 3, 4 or many more children gets them thousands of dollars on food stamps and federal aid.

Drug tests need to be incorporated.
They should only be allowed to buy good food. Not top of the line steaks. No sodas. No chips. No crap.

This is a tough one but after XX number of children, they have to be fixed since they reproduce so freely.

Some of these people are totally unaware of what they are doing.
I have a niece who wound up with a scumbag black boy. She is 19, he is 22. They now have THREE kids. He WILL NOT GET A JOB. They get about $1000 in food stamps
alone.
They also get federal housing. They are not married so his fambly had told her how to get housing.
She actually said to me "see what I have, an apartment and food".

I was freaking out. I told her, What you have done???? all you have done is have kids with a scumbag lazy drug user.
She was confused. I told you that you haven't done a thing, I HAVE DONE IT ALL.
again, she was confused.
I told her because of people like me THAT WORK AND PAY TAXES, you are able to get that apartment and food.
She has been swallowed by the black community and she thinks black.

While visiting my house there are a few rules.
NO BLACK CRAP ON THE RADIO.
NO BLACK CRAP ON TV.
HER LAZY ASS MAN HAS TO WORK AROUND THE PROPERTY.
They will be gone soon.

Oh man, sorry for the rant. These kids drive me crazy.

 

[Dozdoats]

These kids drive me crazy.

You're taking a risk even letting them into your house. Even if they don't steal from you, they will talk about what they saw in your home ... and their friends might pay you a visit.

 

[aznurse]

Not sure who wrote this but we do not have medicaid. We have AHCCCS. More stringent.

 

[Bullwinkle]

But not one bureaucrat is laid off.

 

[Melodi]

and before cheering with "good job Arizona" ask yourself if the kids are better off with a non-working parent or in an orphanage, that was the choice in the Great Depression (my Grandmother made it and lived with starving children -the real type of hunger) it may come to this but I hadn't expected to see history repeat quite so soon


Bullshit. That was then, this is now. Those days and approaches to poverty will NEVER come back. So you're evidently beating on a strawman. You can stop now.


ETA: And the real question to ask is: are the kids better off with a non-working (welfare) parent, one who has NEVER worked, and is herself a child of a non-working (welfare) parent, who was also a child of a non-working (welfare) parent? Where, exactly, does one draw the line and say "ENOUGH. IT STOPS HERE, NOW!"

One I did not answer the question as in many cases I am not certain which is better myself - however please don't ever call my families actual, REAL and AUTHENTIC story to be "Bull...t" My oldest aunt, the only one still alive and I had a long talk about this when my Mother died and yes the story is true and in some ways even worse than what my Mother told me. My aunt being the oldest feels that they children (her and her two sisters) might have been better off physically at least in an orphanage because of the STARVATION, illness and child labor they all experienced. Sometimes there was NO FOOD for three days at a time, their Mother had to take them to work scrubbing toilets and floors when they were ages 3, 2 and 1 (where her husband, my Grandfather ran away with another women). And when my Grandmother went to the authorities and the charities for aid she was told to put the children in an orphanage (where they might be adopted by "deserving" parents) and she would have to enter a work house because she was an "un-fit" Mother, because her husband left her.

Those Dennis are FACTS; does that mean this is happening now, no of course not; but there are still people alive in this world who experienced it! There are times and situations when orphanages may be the better choice, but having had a number of friends end up on welfare often because their children were ill and needed full time care, I know that not everyone is a leach either (one friendhad two P.h.d.'s she kept landing jobs and then being forced to quit or be fired when her son became ill again; the parents were divorced because the Dad had tried to murder her in front of the child which is why the kid kept setting fires and otherwise acting out - today he is a military veteran, married and a father so I think the taxpayers won in that case). Some people ARE leaches but when I worked in AFDC that was about 1/3 of the welfare population (by leaches I mean multigenerational welfare families where no one has worked sometimes since the 1950s) about 1/3 were like my highly educated friend who either had personal or the children had medical issues/other problems getting work and about 1/3 were were in the middle, they benefit the most from "welfare to work programs" because they are not hopeless but often young and untrained (and yep unmotivated sometimes).

But please do not insult my Grandmother nor say the choices she faced and was forced to make are "Bulls..t" my aunt recently confirmed what I always expected which it is highly likely my Grandmother's choices were even worse than those my Mother in her innocence as the Baby understood and while I wouldn't wish that life on any women I have the greatest respect for someone who would do what they had to so their kids could survive. If she had not, I probably wouldn't be here typing right now...

This is how ever one reason I find this topic endlessly interesting, I agree that there will be "welfare dumping" I think that is the intention here and at some point the money does run out - so what to do next, not all of these people are illegal aliens - yep you can deport those that are but the rest?...

 

[Melodi]

Oh Dennis I just re-read your exact statement and I see you are mostly saying "this can't happen here and now" I suggest reading up on what happened in Argentina when the banks failed...it was very similar...I can personally EASILY see people who have something getting fed up with people who have nothing and/or a move to simply try to bury the problem by blaming all the victims. The ONLY think I see keeping bread lines out of the US is food stamps, I am not the only person to make that observation; so get rid of the support and the bread lines, orphanages and tent cities make a big come back (probably work houses too) I am not saying they might not even be part of a solution but to think they can't happen again ignores history, even recent history.

 

[Kathy in FL]

Oh Dennis I just re-read your exact statement and I see you are mostly saying "this can't happen here and now" I suggest reading up on what happened in Argentina when the banks failed...it was very similar...I can personally EASILY see people who have something getting fed up with people who have nothing and/or a move to simply try to bury the problem by blaming all the victims. The ONLY think I see keeping bread lines out of the US is food stamps, I am not the only person to make that observation; so get rid of the support and the bread lines, orphanages and tent cities make a big come back (probably work houses too) I am not saying they might not even be part of a solution but to think they can't happen again ignores history, even recent history.

Melodi I can sympathize with people but honestly we need to redefine that "victim" title too many people want to hang around their necks. Where we wind up very much is a result of the choices we make on a day to day basis. We own the choices that we make therefore we own the results of those choices. Victims? If you must see them as victims then see them as victims of their own choices.

I am not saying that there are not circumstances in life that are out of our control; however, ones ability to meet and address those circumstances is very much a result of our daily choices. If we fail to be able to deal with those circumstances constructively then it is because we haven't done something on our end.

 

[Dennis Olson]

I suggest reading up on what happened in Argentina when the banks failed...it was very similar


Again, Argentina is a Turd Whirled hell-hole. The Argentina paradigm WILL ALSO NOT HAPPEN HERE. Why do you keep throwing out totally invalid examples? You're not painting yourself as intellectually honest. Or perhaps you've just lived under socialism too long?

Kathy makes a good point above. I've been on public assistance multiple times in my life. JUST long enough to get jump-started and back into the workforce. In TODAY'S America, the people on welfare longer than a year or so WANT TO BE ON IT. They'd rather be on welfare than learn a skill and go to work.

 

[Melodi]

I totally agree that good intentions and the desire of people in the generation of my own parents (who grew up in the Depression) to make sure nothing like that ever happens again has morphed into a monster of a problem; but I think that automatically cutting off every one, including children after one year during economic times that are so hard I know we have people on this forum who have nearly broken their computers with the number of resumes and job interviews they have plowed through and still not become employed, is well iffy at best. Especially if nearby States don't go along with the plan; I have no problems with limiting food stamps to certain types of food to save money (provided it is done in a sane way and not prohibiting bulk beans and potatoes, that's nuts) and I have no problems with programs that encourage (or even demand) charity work for welfare recipients provided young children are not home-alone and provided no FOR-PROFIT business gets free labor out of the plan.

My concern has been for awhile that the generation population would get totally fed up with everything (understandable) allowing corporations to set up essentially "work-camps" via the back door; I don't mean NAZI Germany style ones, but essentially places where the destitute live in very prison like conditions with children essentially in State orphanages in the dorm next door and I'm not really sure I like the idea of living in a world like that.

There are also issues of simply allowing people to veg on welfare for life but honestly in the US most welfare is AFDC which is tied to children; now there's tons of people being moved onto the "disabled" rolls (many deserving but some not) because even when I worked for AFDC it was well known that especially older multi-generational welfare mothers were not really "fit" for work. They often had several chronic medical conditions and they had no training; again unless you force employers to hire them (which I don't advocate) no one is likely to hire them. It is kind of an endless loop circle; if Arizona had a carrot to go with the stick, it would be less concerning - say only one year in the system unless there is job training, a charity work-fare job or a medical exemption pending a disability hearing but I am not seeing anything like that. So most likely there will be a bus ticket to the next State over and that may solve Arizona's problem for now but doesn't really solve the issue, just moves it along.

 

[Melodi]

I suggest reading up on what happened in Argentina when the banks failed...it was very similar


Again, Argentina is a Turd Whirled hell-hole. The Argentina paradigm WILL ALSO NOT HAPPEN HERE. Why do you keep throwing out totally invalid examples? You're not painting yourself as intellectually honest. Or perhaps you've just lived under socialism too long?

Kathy makes a good point above. I've been on public assistance multiple times in my life. JUST long enough to get jump-started and back into the workforce. In TODAY'S America, the people on welfare longer than a year or so WANT TO BE ON IT. They'd rather be on welfare than learn a skill and go to work.

Socialism isn't working here either Dennis, the difference here is that people can (and do) stay on welfare for life no matter if they have children or not; in the US that is much more difficult to do, except for the folks (about 1/3 twenty-five years ago, it may be higher now) who know how to "game" the system, they tend to live in female centered households where everyone gets a "check" of some kind including Grannies social security and brother's "Crazy Money" to make it work. Formerly Middle Class people who fall on hard times as you did are often shocked to discover there is "nothing" except food stamps if the unemployment runs out (except in a few States that have State programs). In most of Europe and Ireland people in this situation can still get welfare, though the amounts are decreasing and the requirements to find work increasing.

I know for a fact that not everyone in America who is on welfare WANTS to be there, because I have friends and family in the situation they have desperately been trying to get out of; of course just wanting a job and filling out hundreds of job applications doesn't always get the desired result, though I'm noticing lately a pick up in employment so that's a good sign. Still no income for two or three years would have most people living on the sidewalk unless they have family or friends who take them in.

I used Argentina because at the time of the collapse they were considered a mostly Middle Class country not a third world heck-hold like Venezuela is now or say Peru still is; people went from sipping coffee in European cafes and working in office buildings to not having access to their money because the banks closed but the bills didn't go away. Very quickly grandmothers were selling themselves on the street for food to feed their grand kids; it was a terrible shock and if you would like another one try Greece, Italy or Spain. Those places were kind of second world (like Ireland was when we moved here) but people didn't expect to see young children out of school selling trinkets on the street or formally Middle Class people sleeping in shop doorways either but it is happening. More in Greece but increasingly in Italy and Southern Europe in general.

My point there was simply that you can't just say "that was then, this is now" yes this is now, and I would prefer not to see a repeat of "then," I am not sure what the answer is but I'm not sure this one is likely to work out - well maybe it will by getting people to move to nearby States...we shall see..

 

[Dennis Olson]

I don't know what we're going to see either. But one thing is absolutely certain: it won't be pretty, and it won't be just in a single state. But whatever it is, it will absolutely not resemble anything we've experienced in times past.

 

[Dozdoats]

But whatever it is, it will absolutely not resemble anything we've experienced in times past.

It will be orders of magnitude worse. There are MANY more people who have NO CLUE about how to survive an austere environment (no electricity, no running water, etc). The old infrastructure that supported people in the 1930s is almost completely gone.

 

[Kris Gandillon]

Not sure who wrote this but we do not have medicaid. We have AHCCCS. More stringent.

Actually...it IS Medicaid. Medicaid in every state is operated slightly differently since they are state-run programs.

The Arizona Health Care Cost Containment System (AHCCCS) is the name of the Medicaid program in the state of Arizona. As with all Medicaid programs, it is a joint program between the state and the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services (CMS).

http://www.azcentral.com/news/politics/articles/20130610medicaid-expansion-timeline.html

1982 - The Arizona Health Care Cost Containment System -- the state's Medicaid program -- begins.

 

[Kathy in FL]

Melodi, tell them to stop looking for a job and to start creating a job for themselves. That's what hubby and I had to do once our college educations started wearing thin and we realized that real life was considerably different for us than it was "supposed to be" according to our professors and our peers. It took a lot of work and was challenging but looking back I can say that the more we got rid of the "supposed to be" mindset the greater success we wound up achieving.

My son in law is currently working two careers ... one, he works for an investment/insurance company and two, he is an independent contractor building websites, creating excel spreadsheets, etc. basically whatever comes his way in extra work. My daughter, the Speech Pathologist, is not only working in the school system but has a sideline of providing in-home therapy and she is also starting to tutor kids in-home. They're both 24 and they get it. They get it so much that they put off buying a house one more year so that they wouldn't completely overwhelm themselves financially.

People have forgotten to keep their creative gene up and active and that is the only way we are going to make it in today's world.

 

[marsh]

I do think that some people no longer have the understanding that they are responsible for their own "living" and that of the children they make until they are adults. That feeling of "you are on your own" and "the world doesn't owe you a living" and the need to hustle and compete to provide for yourself and your family is gone. The government will provide. Of course that means that other people will pay for it. What used to be "charity" is now buried in working people's taxes.

Having been in local government, I know some people have mental illnesses that make it difficult for them to work. In some high welfare communities, it is a way of life. Girls get pregnant at 16 and leave school so they have "someone who loves them" (baby.) These are also high drug communities and communities where there is generally an issue with respect for police.

One of my former county Social Services directors used to tell the story about a 18 year old kid they employed to give him workforce training. He showed up for work in the morning. They told him to take a lunch break and he never returned. Come to find out he knew nothing about how work was done and that you were supposed to return after lunch to continue working. Not even the schools were preparing them for being self-reliant.

Welfare Queen Tells all: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gU-Gsu1PUk

Clip on Angel Adams - 15 kids, (now 16) "Somebody needs to pay for all my kids" Somebody needs to be held accountable." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JG71gZjzz4

Tennessee Man Fathers 30 Kids, Needs Help With Child Support https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNohGQv9o9g

12 Year Welfare Recipient Kiara Feel Assistance Is Just Free Money https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrCkK0pCLVI

Entitlement Mentality Compilation - Entitled Welfare and Food Stamp Users
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCP3b_a2Zoo

John Stossel and Bill O'Reilly on Gaming the system https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wq3A-dztXJA

Welfare abuse video (foul language warning) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMf1lzbBsZ0

 

[WalknTrot]

The "free s**t" has to stop sometime. Otherwise there is no end and the situation just gets worse. Nothing pisses me off as much as the free meals (plus a take-home bag for weekends) that most of the schools in this country feed low income kids these days. Their parents and family qualify as poverty level, and they receive food assistance, but are still TOO DAMNED LAZY to feed their kids breakfast and to pack a lunch for them of food that I have already paid for and have given them. That is where the bullshit lies.

And speaking of jobs - I have been to several places this week and seen what passes for minimum wage or higher "labor" in this country. I guaran-damn-tee that if I had picked up a tray or a mop, a phone or a serving spoon in any of those businesses, I'd have had a job within a half-hour. The hired "help" that they had was laughable. Needless to say, I'm recently "retired", and already working as much if not more than I was - because everybody I know wants me to work for them. It ain't tough to get a job if you show somebody that you can work.

Good luck to the leeches of Arizona. They are gonna need it.

 

[pirate9933]

I don't think any one here has any problems with a family on welfare because illness.

I think we are all talking about 3rd, 4th, 5th generation of professional welfare recipients.
These people are professionals. They know how to get money from the state and federal governments. Many children with no husband. The husband may even live there but he has another address.

I don't want to bring up TV buuuut, the paternity court show and others that I have watched in the past where the man really wants to know if he is the father, only wants his name on the birth cert. He has no intention of being a dad on site. It's just one of many women that he had a kid with.

 

[pirate9933]

I'm recently "retired", and already working as much if not more than I was - because everybody I know wants me to work for them. It ain't tough to get a job if you show somebody that you can work.

A friend of mine is recently retired. We all live on acreage around here. When he works on his and others property, every time with out fail, when some kid, 15 - 35 asks to work with him, he gets pissed off.
With in 30 minutes he tells the lump to leave him alone because the child is slowing him down.

 

[Bardou]

The 23 year single mother featured in the article knew she had no diploma and no job before she got pregnant.

I've got two nieces exactly like the woman in the article. My mother and I were invited to their baby showers. We did not go and told them both that we don't reward bad behavior. One is pregnant and the other just popped out another one. One is all tatted up - typical welfare momma. I don't and won't help either one of them. I'm thankful that their great grandmother is not alive to see what their great grand children have done. Their mother is no better, lived a life of drugs and not caring for herself. She has cancer - and you guessed it, the taxpayer is taking care of her. It's a vicious circle. I've hardened myself against these parasites--relatives or not.

 

[Faroe]

You can't fix past suffering with social programs today. Like it or not, we are about to become a third world country with third world finances. There will not be enough to go around for health care, education, utilities, or food. There just won't be.

Re-arrange the deck chairs on the Titanic if you wish, but the ship is still about to sink.

Our welfare state has bred tens of millions of people who are entirely unable to support themselves. They will be the first to turn on others when the when the EBT cards no longer purchase anything. The suffering and violence that that will come from this can be blamed directly on decades of welfare programs.

Makes a person re-think what the "heartless" position really is.

 

[Melodi]

Yes there ARE people like this and 25 years ago actual studies showed them to be about 1/3 of the Welfare population - they were also the biggest headaches because "programs" just don't seem to work for them much.

The people thrown onto welfare by illness (parent of child) are much more common that is realized but they also tended to be the best at getting off of it, IF the problems were addressed or solvable. It simply wasn't solvable if the child had an on-going and chronic illness because the Mother (like my friend) would repeatedly go back to work and be forced back onto welfare as soon as the child became ill again. This was especially true of the "middle group" the not-hopeless but need attention cases where Mom usually only qualified for a low-income job with no medical benefits. Another study that came across my desk about a pilot program in California (yes States can get waivers and experiment) showed that Mom's who were on a special "take any job" program tended to end up back on welfare within two years of the program's health care provision ended due to their own illness or more often that of a child. Low income jobs provided neither health care nor sick leave (especially not parental sick leave to care for the child) and if the condition was serious (the sort that social services will take your kid away if not treated - cancer, broken leg etc) then the Mother also simply didn't have the money to pay for it without being on "welfare." Some of this may have changed, especially locally but that was how it was at the time; women in the first group that had higher educations and were usually only on welfare for a short time after a divorce, death of a husband, shorter illness or job loss tended to have jobs WITH health insurance that covered their kids. The "solution" suggested by the study was to funnel welfare Mothers into civil service jobs with better pay and benefits, I have written before just how "well" that worked in my Federal office while we tried to work with a sweet, 500 pound African American lady with six kids who didn't realize orange sweat pants were not appropriate for a legal office (even a Federal Civil Service one) and was really trying but found understanding a modern phone system and writing down messages to be beyond her skill set. And that lady WAS motivated and she WAS trying; she was also clueless and in so totally the wrong job...

Now it is entirely possible that there are now more people in what used to be that bottom third, maybe now as high as 50 percent from what everyone is saying; that is probably partly due to the fact that a lot of the pilot programs WORKED for the original first two groups. Ladies and Gentlemen in the first group (and the percentage of men with custody is higher here) were self motivated, well educated, used to being employed (aka had a work ethic) and often got themselves off of welfare (or onto an appropriate program if they were truly disabled or had a child who was). They might scream like my friend did "How in the world do most Welfare Mothers fill out these forms for the child care program? I've got TWO P.h.d's and I can't figure the dang thing out!" but they do fill it out and they do a certain amount of their own moving and shaking (and yes I hear the create your own job here, yes friends and family along with adults in this group almost always try this but it seldom pays enough to support kids on but that's another topic).

Young Mothers (high in the second group) who finished high school and either married or moved in with a boyfriend and had a couple of babies thinking they would be housewives or work at part-time jobs with a support network, did the BEST when it came towards being helped by things like college training (for jobs like nursing), child care help, courses in how to fill out a resume or dress for an interview, what is expected when you work in different sorts of places (a cafe is not a hotel desk reception and requires different skills and dress) etc. etc. The sort of things that most of us learned at our first jobs back in the Dark Ages as teenagers that these women (and a few men) simply didn't get. They also may need some carrots and sticks to get out of bed, go to interviews or class and get the message that life is not sitting on the sofa watching cartoons with the kids. But they are capable of learning, most come from working class or poor backgrounds but NOT multigenerational poverty ones.

This second group is the one that helped the early "welfare to work" programs look so good on paper because the first group wants to be in work and the second group can quickly learn the advantages as long as they get a bit of hand-holding along the way.

The third group on the other hand are the ones in these articles, the "someone better pay for my kids" and "where is my free stuff" people and those; well I never once saw a pilot program that worked much at all except for one that noticed something:

Most people in this category do some work, it just usually isn't legally recognized work; almost all of it is informal (baby sitting) and undeclared (you learn not to do that trust me) or it is really illegal (like drug running) but a huge portion of the work is the sorts that people USED to be ALLOWED to do to work themselves out of poverty. Some women were so determined to try to work their way out of their trap they started small businesses 3 or 4 times before giving up when told their kids would be taken away if they didn't just sit back and accept money. Typical businesses started were dress making (against the law almost everywhere if done from home), home baking (highly illegal without an industrial kitchen and thousands in permits), driving friends to appointments (again highly illegal, not allowed with thousands in permits) among others. Homes would be "raided" with the "tools of the crime" like sewing machines or stoves confiscated and never seen again. Women were fined, threatened with jail and the loss of their kids - it simply isn't allowed to try having a hair salon in your kitchen (another common one) not without a certificate from a trade school and hundreds or thousands in permits and a "real" building.

That bit was a real eye opener and now that I live in a rural area, I see the same thing happening on a different scale especially when the economy went South and people had to do something; the difference is here the government turns mostly a blind eye. Every year they target something, a couple of years ago it was back yard egg sales and then they go away and a few months later the hand written signs are back or you just know who sells eggs.

So one potential "solution" that simply isn't likely to happen is a relaxation on micro-businesses by welfare Moms, similar to the ones popular now in the third world; it won't happen for a lot of reasons starting with it being illegal and the fact that currently any "income" not reported is breaking the law and because local shops and people who have played thousands for permits don't want them in then area and the cities/states are not about to give up all that lovely money that comes from issuing the permits etc.

Of course if things get bad enough economically (again like the Great Depression) than there may not be the will left to enforce this stuff or it will simply be ignored as people do what they have to do to survive. It does not mean of course either that the majority of "free stuff" people WANT to work but a good percentage of them are willing but after decades of this sort of negative feedback they tend to give up and their children never see anything else but Mom getting a check.

 

[Dphintias]

The fact is that most of us know of people who have been on disability pensions for their entire adult life. Most of us know also that a number of these people (in my case all of them) are capable of doing some meaningful work and jobs could be found for them. It has always bugged me that they have gotten away with this for all these years at taxpayers' expense. Yes, there are genuinely disabled people who are totally incapable of doing anything but the fact is that the system has been gamed for far too long. When the money starts to dry up, that's when, finally, these people will be weeded out. Long overdue IMO.

 

[Freeholder]

I know where someone of good character who was mechanically inclined could work themselves into a good job. Our local mechanic really needs a helper -- he has more work than he can handle in this small ranch and retiree community. Skills like that will pretty much always be in demand.

Also, someone with good handyman skills, good character, and a good work ethic could support themselves in this community.

But note the good character and good work ethic -- that's what is so often missing.

Kathleen

 

[MountainBiker]

The 23 year single mother featured in the article knew she had no diploma and no job before she got pregnant.

Exactly. Rewarding her for poor decision-making will only lead to more poor decision-making and likely more kids she can't support.

 

[MountainBiker]

ask yourself if the kids are better off with a non-working parent or in an orphanage

I'd say in an orphanage where they at least have a chance at having a positive role model that will allow them to escape the multi-generational welfare lifestyle. If they truly value their children as something more than a meal ticket they'll get their act together and start making some smarter choices.

 

[Melodi]

The fact is that most of us know of people who have been on disability pensions for their entire adult life. Most of us know also that a number of these people (in my case all of them) are capable of doing some meaningful work and jobs could be found for them. It has always bugged me that they have gotten away with this for all these years at taxpayers' expense. Yes, there are genuinely disabled people who are totally incapable of doing anything but the fact is that the system has been gamed for far too long. When the money starts to dry up, that's when, finally, these people will be weeded out. Long overdue IMO.

Having known several people in this situation, I can tell you that part (not all) of this is SS disability policy; unless they have changed it very recently, part time work is simply not allowed. One friend who was offered a part time job sitting down that they wanted to take was told "you are either disable or you are not, that's the law." I have no idea if it actually IS the law but that is how it is worded, now most people can't survive, especially if they have a serious medical condition on 15 hours a week work; and no-one can live on that if they also need an electric wheel chair, a home carer to get them in and out of bed or other assistance. I've had a number of blind friends caught up in this too, often with good educations; they want to work but either it is simply too expensive for the average work place to modify things for them for full time work (see the other thread on how far should employers have to go) and the no part time rule; well a lot of people sit at home or quietly do volunteer work because they go nuts doing nothing.

If that part-time rule were dumped, especially in terms of getting a person back into the work place and with some medical conditions perhaps even gradually move up to full time (though this is always realistic but for some it is) it would change things a great deal; as long as it exists, people simply won't be have a chance to try as they can't risk ending up on the streets if they don't make their rent.

This one REALLY affects me because I myself might (or should) be on SSI if I were in the US, though I personally would hopefully not have to do that for the same reason we made a choice not to use tax payer money here in Ireland as long as I have a loving family with enough money to support me. I do work part-time, for myself as I can't stand not doing so (I started selling home strung beads at age 10) but it would never be a total means of support either. I am not lazy, but no employer is going to want (or should have to deal with) an employee who is sometimes fine and other times can barely walk across a room or get out of bed for three to five days at a time; I might manage a part time position of say 15 hours a week and would probably volunteer to do something like that if we didn't live somewhere so far out that we have no public transit.

But I agree there are people on disability that could work, but there has to be employers who are willing to hire them and keep them even if they relapse and social security HAS to allow part-time work at least as a stepping stone to fuller employment, understanding that part time is all many people in the program may be able to do.

 

[Melodi]

I'd say in an orphanage where they at least have a chance at having a positive role model that will allow them to escape the multi-generational welfare lifestyle. If they truly value their children as something more than a meal ticket they'll get their act together and start making some smarter choices.

I suspect my elderly aunt who grew up old enough to remember the starvation and other issues would agree with you, her younger sisters were always grateful the family was kept together no matter what - it isn't a black and white issue.

 

[NC Susan]

Perchance when the man/world government fails these welfare families that these families may turn to God and prayer where the real miracles can then occur
Then instead of handouts and redistributed money, these families can begin to prosper via work and church and the personal shift from a generation of beggars to a new generation of producers