BRKG Caldor Fire in California

West

Senior
The forest in the AO of this fire, have been neglected since the late 90s, access has been limited, and the thrash, deadfall, brush, old growth that is dead or dieing and pecker polls have created a huge kindling pile.

This has been by mandate, the spotted owl, red legged tree frog, etc.. won the war but have lost the forest now to mandated fire.

This works great to also get peoples to move to the valley's, cities.

But they will blame drought and climate change.

Young replanted trees that are managed and thinned after clearcuts also help make wet weather. Dead and dieing old growth does not create transpiration, like a young healthy forest does!

This has been planned! They knew what they was doing, when they killed the logging industry!
 

Melodi

Disaster Cat
There are two basic issues going on:

1. This is probably a 20 to 250-year drought (or even longer, these droughts show up in tree rings and other historical data which goes back about 8,000 years now.

2. Before the Europeans settled, the Native Americans (who had contact with tribes who were farmers) knew that these areas just burned every so often, in fact sometimes they intentionally set backfires to encourage them (and provide them with the game and new forest growth).

Sometimes I imagine these fires burned all the way from the Sierras to the sea, but because they were more frequent there tended not to be as hot as the super-high heat and melting firestorms we see today.

A good way to look at it is that 3,000-year-old Redwood trees that need fire for some of their reproduction and had survived for thousands of years are being burned to ashes by the heat of these modern fires.

There was an attempt a couple of decades ago to just "let fires burn" in the "old way", but that failed dramatically with super-high fires burning down nearly everything in their path.
West did I say something wrong? I mean I realize that part of the issue is that the area was allowed to over-grow after the logging industry left, but the clear-cutting of my childhood (when took entire mountains of trees all at once) contributed to horrific mudslides - so again moderation has never seemed to be a big thing when it comes to California Forest Management.

It is obvious, that one thing that needs to be done urgently is to start hauling out the underbrush and overgrowth (and too many young trees) that have emerged in these areas in the decades since almost all logging was discontinued. But that is expensive, the paperwork difficult and it isn't profitable enough for a lot of private industry to want to bother with (that could change with the high prices for wood).

I saw both sides of the logging vs. forestry as a kid growing up and as I said, there seemed to be little or no comprises willingness on either "side" and in the long run it all fell apart with most of the logging going to Asia and the Amazon (to utterly destroy their forests) and the forests then allowed to over-grow into giant matchboxes when they were almost totally ignored (some tribes and some local areas do better than others).

I was trying to point out that locals do what they can (usually) especially homeowners to clear the land around their houses, put in fire retardant roofs, and taking other precautions. But a firestorm makes its own rules and a truly large one is pretty unstoppable. I saw that first hand in 1992 racing away from the Berkeley Hills and these fires are much more massive than that one was.

Edited to add: there was no logging that I am aware of before the Europeans came, and the forests were "managed" by natural and man-created fires. That is no longer possible as people live there now, or at least they are at the moment, as you point out that could change if policies drive people away.
 

mzkitty

I give up.
Thanks for this app. The amount of fires burning at this time in the ZUSA, on the West coast especially, seems unprecedented! Worrisome! Prayers sent up for the firefighters and for those affected.

What bugs me, Tammy, is all the ignorant people posting who haven't one clue about why there are these fires these days. It's appalling the uneducated in this country. I don't post their crap. I've been saying crap a lot lately.

:eek:
 

TammyinWI

Talk is cheap
What bugs me, Tammy, is all the ignorant people posting who haven't one clue about why there are these fires these days. It's appalling the uneducated in this country. I don't post their crap. I've been saying crap a lot lately.

:eek:

Yes, I feel yer pain...sigh. It is a blatant, cold, hard fact that there are way to many things that IRK me these days. :mad: I try not to get bent out of shape...and I have been saying crap and other choice words a lot lately.
 

West

Senior
Quote..

"Edited to add: there was no logging that I am aware of before the Europeans came, and the forests were "managed" by natural and man-created fires. That is no longer possible as people live there now, or at least they are at the moment, as you point out that could change if policies drive people away."

Also this quote...

. "This is probably a 20 to 250-year drought (or even longer, these droughts show up in tree rings and other historical data which goes back about 8,000 years now."

You're right. Before the modern professional logging industry that practiced proven and successful forest management that including slight terracing and leaving some trees especially in steep areas (of note loggers in the 70s to 90s where doing it right.) It took several hundred years before the healthy new growth forest came back to end the droughts after the forest burned.

You might want to read up on transpiration and view the the West coast weather patterns.

1997 and years before and after there was no to little droughts. It was also the highth of the professional logging industry, we never had so many healthy trees. It was also the year they started in earnest to kill the industry.

The clear cuts in northern California often produced new loggable healthy forest in 20 to 30 years.

It's been almost 30 years now, the trees planted 30 years ago are now dead or dieing mostly because of no real forest management.

It's all gotta burn again, and like the Indians we will wait 100 to several hundred years for the forest to come back naturally and break this drought.
 

Melodi

Disaster Cat
I've been studying paleoclimatology to one degree or another since graduate school, it isn't my main focus but it is an interest.

If you look at the tree ring data, during solar minimum periods and often when there was a lot of "climate chaos" (the real kind) in other parts of the world (14th century, 6th century, 1177 Bronze Age/End of the Old Kingdom) there were extreme droughts in the entire Western area of what is now the United States and in some cases going way down into Central America.

During one such period, the Anasazi are believed to have left their cliff dwellings to become the Hopi (based on tree rings preserved in the Hogans), it may have contributed to the severe decline of the Mayan Urban civilization (they returned to being small farmers before the Europeans came) and there is some evidence of huge natural fires and a severe lack of water (up to a couple of hundred years) during these periods.

At almost the same time periods, the civilizations of the Bronze Ages collapsed (almost overnight) and the Famine Stella was erected in Egypt.

During the Migration Age, parts of Northern Europe became extremely wet and cold with entire land areas washing away (sea levels on the other hand rose, go figure, I can't). Major volcanic eruptions seem to have made that episode worse, the results were the "fall" of the Western Roman Empire and what non-historians call The Dark Ages in Europe (historians call it the migration age because so many people were displaced).

There was also a round of the Black Death (Plague of Justinian) that killed 1/3 of Europe.

There was a near repeat of all this both in Northern Europe and in the Americas around the 14th century - with weather so bad by the early 1320s that The Great Famine in Europe caused people to wonder if God had left the Earth and turned it over to satan. This was 20 years before the Black Death once again took away a third of Europe in just a few years.

We don't know what the Maya thought as they fled their cities around this time, as the Europeans burned most of their books - their elders say they "got tired of living so close together and decided to become simple farmers again."

Nightwolf says: "that sounds like a great excuse to tell the grandkids," he may or may not be correct - the point is, it happened.

So we can't just go by "since the 19th century" when it comes to climate in California or the Western United States.

One observation I made back in the 1970s studying anthropology was that the Native Americans in this area (West Coast) never engaged in agriculture or if they did it was on such a small scale there is no record of it. My educated guess is that any group that tried it, was forced to go back to hunting and gathering when the droughts and fires came back (or severe floods).

The same thing happened to the farmers in Northern Ireland during the 6th century solar minimum/volcanic/crazy weather period. They could no longer farm and would have starved to death if they hadn't returned to hunting and fishing for at least a few decades.

The Native Americans of California traded and probably traveled to places occasionally where people had agriculture, they probably knew what it was, they just also knew it wasn't sustainable where they lived over the generations.

Further up the coast, there was enough game, natural resources, and fishing to allow people to live in villages without actually planting crops, but that's a totally different story. They could also be mobile and probably just picked up and moved during the extreme droughts or fires.

But I totally agree with you that the fires are likely to just keep burning until there is little left to burn and the area could become mostly empty of people unless the rains come back and this drought period is a shorter one (and it could be).

The lack of sunspots though concerns me.
 

MajorMarv

Contributing Member
I lived in the area (Pollock Pines) for 22 years, left for North Idaho in 2016. Mrs. sierra-don still lives in Pollock but she is on the other side of Hwy 50 (north side). I'll be talking to her this evening on our nightly phone call and get her and the status on the north side of 50.

The last big fire in that area was in 2014 but it was on the north side of Hwy 50, it was 100,000 acres, took lots of vids and pics of that one. The current fire is on the south side of 50. There is nothing but forest and a very tiny community of Kybers and Sierra At Tahoe ski resort between it and Lake Tahoe.

Lots of smoke here in my area of Idaho, been that way for weeks, closest fire here was about 15 miles down the highway towards town.
The family is on the North side down forebay road. They left yesterday to go to friends in Placerville. We moved to Pollock Pines in the early 70's.
 
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West

Senior
I've been studying paleoclimatology to one degree or another since graduate school, it isn't my main focus but it is an interest.

If you look at the tree ring data, during solar minimum periods and often when there was a lot of "climate chaos" (the real kind) in other parts of the world (14th century, 6th century, 1177 Bronze Age/End of the Old Kingdom) there were extreme droughts in the entire Western area of what is now the United States and in some cases going way down into Central America.

During one such period, the Anasazi are believed to have left their cliff dwellings to become the Hopi (based on tree rings preserved in the Hogans), it may have contributed to the severe decline of the Mayan Urban civilization (they returned to being small farmers before the Europeans came) and there is some evidence of huge natural fires and a severe lack of water (up to a couple of hundred years) during these periods.

At almost the same time periods, the civilizations of the Bronze Ages collapsed (almost overnight) and the Famine Stella was erected in Egypt.

During the Migration Age, parts of Northern Europe became extremely wet and cold with entire land areas washing away (sea levels on the other hand rose, go figure, I can't). Major volcanic eruptions seem to have made that episode worse, the results were the "fall" of the Western Roman Empire and what non-historians call The Dark Ages in Europe (historians call it the migration age because so many people were displaced).

There was also a round of the Black Death (Plague of Justinian) that killed 1/3 of Europe.

There was a near repeat of all this both in Northern Europe and in the Americas around the 14th century - with weather so bad by the early 1320s that The Great Famine in Europe caused people to wonder if God had left the Earth and turned it over to satan. This was 20 years before the Black Death once again took away a third of Europe in just a few years.

We don't know what the Maya thought as they fled their cities around this time, as the Europeans burned most of their books - their elders say they "got tired of living so close together and decided to become simple farmers again."

Nightwolf says: "that sounds like a great excuse to tell the grandkids," he may or may not be correct - the point is, it happened.

So we can't just go by "since the 19th century" when it comes to climate in California or the Western United States.

One observation I made back in the 1970s studying anthropology was that the Native Americans in this area (West Coast) never engaged in agriculture or if they did it was on such a small scale there is no record of it. My educated guess is that any group that tried it, was forced to go back to hunting and gathering when the droughts and fires came back (or severe floods).

The same thing happened to the farmers in Northern Ireland during the 6th century solar minimum/volcanic/crazy weather period. They could no longer farm and would have starved to death if they hadn't returned to hunting and fishing for at least a few decades.

The Native Americans of California traded and probably traveled to places occasionally where people had agriculture, they probably knew what it was, they just also knew it wasn't sustainable where they lived over the generations.

Further up the coast, there was enough game, natural resources, and fishing to allow people to live in villages without actually planting crops, but that's a totally different story. They could also be mobile and probably just picked up and moved during the extreme droughts or fires.

But I totally agree with you that the fires are likely to just keep burning until there is little left to burn and the area could become mostly empty of people unless the rains come back and this drought period is a shorter one (and it could be).

The lack of sunspots though concerns me.

There was huge industry in just growing saplings/seedlings for the logging industry. I know because I installed the heating systems so they could grow them all year long. Miles of green houses.

Put that into your research. Never before did the natives grow and plant millions of trees after they clear cutted by fire. Trees are the answer. I believe it changed the pattern, sun spots or not, at least locally.

JMO, granted.
 
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elleyshay

Contributing Member
There were no alerts issued for the fire that ripped through Talent and Phoenix (Oregon) last year. The powers that be also changed the NAME of the fire part way through the day. I followed the hashtag GlendowerFire for a few hours. No reason given and the name changed to AlmedaFire. The Almeda hashtag led to all types of confusion because people kept spelling it Alameda, like the city in California.

I believe many of the fires in the West are arson fires. Yes, some are lightening caused. But too many weird coinkydinks and hinkiness for all of it to be natural.
 

sierra don

Veteran Member
sierra don: tell your wife hell-o, and to stay safe! Shouldn't she should be retired about now and headed to Idaho??


She was able to stay at a friends place and did not have to end up paying for a hotel. Yep, still waiting for her to retire and get up here.......I think she is addicted to work.....LOL

She was up here for a week last September but ended up staying for 2 weeks because on her second day here I rolled my ATV 3 times and got wounded pretty bad........600 lb. ATV laying on top of me, 8 broke ribs, collapsed lung, bad concussion and a little bit of brain damage along with a number of other wounds.........the good part was I never knew I had an accident or felt the pain. I still have no memory of ever having the wreck only what my buddies have told me.

I'll tell Mrs. sierra that you said Hi when I talk to her this evening..........
 

cleobc

Veteran Member
Just love it when people who live in the eastern half of the US offer simplistic solutions to problems that they know nothing about (not). Most wildfires get going with strong winds which can blow embers far in advance of the fire line and blow past 100' of cleared land in an instant.

We have friends staying on the farm who were burned out in the Tamarack Fire a month ago. Now we're under the plume of the Caldor fire. I tell people we have four seasons here: fall, winter, spring, and smoke.
 

Hi-D

Membership Revoked
Just love it when people who live in the eastern half of the US offer simplistic solutions to problems that they know nothing about (not). Most wildfires get going with strong winds which can blow embers far in advance of the fire line and blow past 100' of cleared land in an instant.

We have friends staying on the farm who were burned out in the Tamarack Fire a month ago. Now we're under the plume of the Caldor fire. I tell people we have four seasons here: fall, winter, spring, and smoke.
They need to look up "beetle kill" in the wests forests. It's not that hard to figure out. Dry forests help the beetle survive and the trees die and the fires burn hot. Some fires in some forest just need to be controlled as they burn. There is no value there until the bugs are gone.
 

West

Senior
They need to look up "beetle kill" in the wests forests. It's not that hard to figure out. Dry forests help the beetle survive and the trees die and the fires burn hot. Some fires in some forest just need to be controlled as they burn. There is no value there until the bugs are gone.

That's another reason why clear cutting and replanting worked so good. Younger trees that are harvested before the beetles, drought and other elements kill them.

A 30 year old red fir tree in a decent area with decent rainfall and managed area (thinned and slightly terraced) can grow over 50 feet tall and is perfect for logging. Way before the pine beetle, etc can kill them. And the more transpiration they give up, often creating more rainfall.

But the floods we had in 1997 in the OP area of operation and was super wet years, I guess just by chanch happened when both the logging industry and forest was the most healthiest.

KBR Closeup: "1997 California Floods"

It was epic, and hit the all of the west, from Washington to southern California.
 
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Hi-D

Membership Revoked
That's another reason why clear cutting and replanting worked so good. Younger trees that are harvested before the beetles, drought and other elements kill them.

A 30 year old red fir tree in a decent area with decent rainfall and managed area (thinned and slightly terraced) can grow over 50 feet tall and is perfect for logging. Way before the pine beetle, etc can kill them. And the more transpiration they give up, often creating more rainfall.

But the floods we had in 1997 in the OP area of operation and was super wet years, I guess just by chanch happened when both the logging industry and forest was the most healthiest.

KBR Closeup: "1997 California Floods"

It was epic, and hit the all of the west, from Washington to southern California.
We always selective cut here and had no Spotted owl. We always had loggers and equipment in the woods and although we started some fires we were also there to put them out. If the lighting started fires they would close the mill and everyone able would join the FS and put them out. That was how it was done and it supported many families for decades. Then came the Radiata Pine out of Chili on boats cheaper than we could produce lumber here. The people started using vinyl wrapped compressed sawdust for moldings when finishing house instead of solid wood. Compressed wood chips and glue instead of plywood. As we spiraled down the price went up. Now stumpage(logs) are worth very little even though lumber prices hit 1700.00. What a wonderful world. You should have seen the floods in the 80's.

YEARS OF RAIN MERGE 3 LAKES TO FLOOD OREGONIANS - The New York Times (nytimes.com)
 

West

Senior
We always selective cut here and had no Spotted owl. We always had loggers and equipment in the woods and although we started some fires we were also there to put them out. If the lighting started fires they would close the mill and everyone able would join the FS and put them out. That was how it was done and it supported many families for decades. Then came the Radiata Pine out of Chili on boats cheaper than we could produce lumber here. The people started using vinyl wrapped compressed sawdust for moldings when finishing house instead of solid wood. Compressed wood chips and glue instead of plywood. As we spiraled down the price went up. Now stumpage(logs) are worth very little even though lumber prices hit 1700.00. What a wonderful world. You should have seen the floods in the 80's.

YEARS OF RAIN MERGE 3 LAKES TO FLOOD OREGONIANS - The New York Times (nytimes.com)

Obviously and reading between the lines, they killed your industry by not putting tariffs on the wood coming from out of country?

Doesn't surprise me. Also mandated payroll and general liabilities plus extra mandated controls, I'm sure helped seal the end of profits for you guys as well.

Just sad.
 

buttie

Veteran Member
Another thing people need to understand about clearance around buildings. My FIL was burned out in the Paradise fire. The day before the apartment staff had removed all the leaves from the complex. He said as he left he was up to his waist in leaves that the wind blew in during the night. Yes the building burned to the ground.
 

EYW

Veteran Member
Just love it when people who live in the eastern half of the US offer simplistic solutions to problems that they know nothing about (not). Most wildfires get going with strong winds which can blow embers far in advance of the fire line and blow past 100' of cleared land in an instant.
Same with hurricanes. I love it when Miss Never-Been-Out-of-Nebraska, who has no idea how any of this works, is screaming that we need to evacuate five to seven days before a storm is forecast to hit us. A lot can happen in five to seven days, and everyone should know by now the media loves to hype up hurricane coverage. I, for one, would like to see large area of Kansas, Oklahoma, etc evacuated when a tornado outbreak is forecast. Just think on that.

My niece marked herself "safe" from the Caldor Fire on the fire's FB page.

She lives in Kyburz right on 50. Hope she does not have to evacuate as she cares full-time for her severely mentally disabled adult son, and he can be a handful in stress situations.
Unfortunately, my niece did have to evacuate. Her son did well, so far, as well as her two grandkids were with her. They are all safe at a friend's house. At this point, she thinks they have probably lost the house. Her husband went back to pick up some stuff and the firemen were using their driveway (which was perfectly fine with him). They said the fire was two miles away. A lot was dependent on the winds. Last they heard, the winds were not blowing toward them, but that can change in an instant.

Praying she has something to go home to, but if not, like so many others, you cry, clean up, and decide if you want to rebuild or not. It is totally out of your hands what happens.
 

cleobc

Veteran Member
My best friend's house after the Tamarack Fire a month ago. They are staying in our upstairs apartment, trying to get through the maze of insurance claims, valuations, a lawsuit, etc. They have spent hours on the phone and so far not one thing has actually done on the site. Still waiting for funds.

Their fireplace is at the left of the photo. The little pile of rubble is what's left of a two-story house. The fire was very hot and just vaporized a lot of stuff.

Also, a good wakeup call for the rest of us to be sure the value of our house matches our insurance. They hadn't updated their insurance since they bought the house.
 

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EYW

Veteran Member
Update on my niece: Her husband bought a used camp-type trailer already set up in an RV park so they could stay there. Their friend was happy to have them, but my niece's son was wearing their hostess down. He just wanted to go home. So they have taken him "camping"

Their house was still standing as of yesterday (Friday) evening. They have a friend who is a deputy and he sends them a pic whenever he is on the highway in front of their house. However, last night the fires were seem glowing from the other side of the ridge from them, so today may be the make it or break it day. Their house has the highway on one side and a small river on the backside, praying that is enough of a fire break. Their house is the black dot on the map. The fires have been closer every day.
aly house.jpg
 

dioptase

Veteran Member
I have a buddy on another forum who was evacuated due to the Caldor fire. On the east side of her home, the fire seems to have been stopped about 0.5 mile away. (I've been praying and I consider this miraculous, given what (little) I understand about how these wildfires behave, and what I can determine of the terrain from Google maps.) So far, so good, and thanks be to God.

But the fire both to the north and the south of her has extended west, and on the CalFire map it looks like those two arms are now beginning to close (like jaws), in which case her home will be in a circle surrounded by fire. (Hopefully I am wrong; the CalFire map only shows red, it doesn't show which portions are now "burnt out" and no longer burning.) So I am asking for prayers for all the civilians whose property is in harm's way (not just for this fire, but all the fires in the West), and for strength and protection for the firefighters.
 

duchess47

Has No Life - Lives on TB

Siskiyoumom

Veteran Member

West

Senior
Prayers to all in the path of the fires.

I spent many years in Eldorado county and one of my best memories was swimming with the golden trout in the desolation wilderness area. Bring it's the states fish and there protected, I'll just say I swam with them.

I only bring this up because if there is anyone in the area and they are trapped, but can make it to that area, I'm sure that it's not going to burn there. Maybe a few ancient juniper trees might burn, but it's mostly granite bedrock and should provide excellent fire protection, as well as the many streams and small natural lakes. I could live there for a summer easily, with at least a good sleeping bag and cover if it rains.



Desolation_Wilderness_Arealarge.gif


More info on the area...

 
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SpokaneMan

Veteran Member
I would just simply drive the eastern part of the lake, which of course is the Nevada side. If you can make it to Incline Village you can just take the Mt. Rose Highway which will lead you to HWY 395 between Carson City and Reno.
 
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