WAR Abrams Tanks going to Uke have some config issues with the classified armor

night driver

ESFP adrift in INTJ sea
Link: The War Zone

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ACTUAL LINK TO ARTICLE: M1 Abrams Tanks In U.S. Inventory Have Armor Too Secret To Send To Ukraine
(embed pics for the article are illustrative of the issue)

M1 Abrams Tanks In U.S. Inventory Have Armor Too Secret To Send To Ukraine​

M1 tanks will be heading to Ukraine, but they can’t just be pulled from U.S. stocks due to their sensitive armor.
BYJOSEPH TREVITHICK|PUBLISHED JAN 25, 2023 1:10 PM
THE WAR ZONE
M1 Abrams Tanks In U.S. Inventory Have Armor Too Secret To Send To Ukraine

A group of M1 Abrams tanks sit in a holding area after being offloaded from the freighter ship “Resolve” at the port of Antwerp April 24. The third-generation battle tanks will move onward to Coleman Barracks in Mannheim, Germany, and will become part of the European Activity Set, a combined-arms group of vehicles and equipment that are pre-positioned in Europe to outfit U.S Army regionally aligned forces when they rotate into Europe for training or contingency operations. (Photo by Staff Sgt. Warren W. Wright Jr., 21st TSC Public Affairs). US Army / Staff Sgt. Warren W. Wright Jr. / 21st TSC Public Affairs
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JOSEPH TREVITHICKView Joseph Trevithick's Articles
FranticGoat
As the U.S. government is now preparing to send dozens of M1 Abrams tanks to the Ukrainian military, much attention has been given to concerns about how their complex electronic components and especially their gas turbine propulsion systems could make them particularly difficult to operate and maintain. Though it's not yet clear what specific variant of the Abrams Ukraine's military is set to receive, the tanks will have to be in a unique export configuration. This is largely due to the highly classified armor packages found specifically on U.S. military versions, which contain depleted uranium, and that are not readily exportable even to major allies. In other words, the U.S. can't just send its M1s to Ukraine.
President Joe Biden formally announced plans to send 31 M1 tanks to the Ukrainian armed forces today. The U.S. government will acquire the Abrams through the Ukraine Security Assistance Initiative (USAI). USAI provides funds to purchase weapon systems and other equipment, as well as training and other support services, on behalf of the Ukrainian military to support its longer-term needs. While the exact delivery schedule is not yet known, American officials have made clear the process will take months, not weeks. The first tanks may not arrive until late this year or even early next year.
In addition, it's not immediately clear whether the M1s for Ukraine will be entirely new production tanks or if they will come through some other source. The U.S. Army has thousands of older Abrams in storage that a contractor could be hired to refurbish to a like-new condition or that could be used as donors to help with the construction of tanks that use a mixture of new and remanufactured components.
sierra-army-depot-tanks.jpg

A satellite image showing rows of M1 Abrams tanks and other armored vehicles at Sierra Army Depot in California. Google Earth
No matter what, they will need to be an exportable configuration before heading to Ukraine. So a big part of whatever that process ultimately entails will center on their armor package.
Starting in the late 1980s, many new-production M1A1s for the U.S. military began to feature composite armor packages that include depleted uranium (DU), a metal known for its high density, and other materials. Armor packages that incorporated DU were included on subsequent A2-series variants, as well. Many older American M1A1s were later upgraded with the newer armor and other improvements, including hundreds that were eventually brought up to the A2 standard.
m1a1-tank.jpg

An M1A1 Abrams tank. USMC
To say that the DU composite armor packages are highly classified is almost an understatement. The development of the original version of this armor, often referred to simply as "heavy armor" or "special armor," was conducted under a top-secret Special Access Program (SAP) nicknamed Green Grape. SAPs have extra layers of heavily compartmented security protocols to protect the disclosure of especially sensitive national security information, as you can read more about here.
In 1988, the classification level was downgraded to simply Secret. Even then, a now-declassified operational security guide regarding the "special armor" for the Abrams included the following passage:
"If [the] Special Armor, including skirts and gunshields, is breached and the interior is exposed, a properly cleared (Secret) responsible individual will immediately cover the exposed area from view and initiate action to repair the breach by welding or will evacuate the exposed armor to a maintenance facility were repairs can be made."
m1-armor-security-guide.jpg

A portion of a now-declassified 1988 security classification guide for the M1 Brams's "special armor" package. A mention of the Green Grape Special Access Program, or SAP, is seen here. US Army
Fast-forward 35 years, and many newer armor packages for the Abrams, including ones that also incorporate advanced ceramics, and the operational security measures surrounding its protective features are still very tight. M1 variants are now in service in Australia, Egypt, Iraq, Kuwait, Morocco, and Saudia Arabia, but none of which are understood to feature armor with DU.
Instead, exportable armor packages that don't include DU have been developed for the M1 series. Complete Abrams subvariants with other reduced capabilities compared to the latest versions in U.S. service have been created specifically for export, such as the M1A1Ms that the Iraqi Army operates.
iraq-m1a1.jpg

An Iraqi Army M1A1M Abrams tank. US Army
The armor issue will put limits on how fast the U.S. government can supply any Abrams to Ukraine, whatever the source for those tanks might be. Even if the M1s for Ukraine are pulled from storage and rebuilt, it's far more likely than not that they will have armor packages that will need changing. This is a complex process, as evidenced by recent publicly available contract documents related to the sale of Abrams tanks to Poland.
Poland's future fleet of M1A2 SEPv3 Abrams tanks will include examples that feature refurbished M1A1 turrets. As part of the sale, the U.S. Army is facilitating the installation of a Foreign Military Sales-approved armor package onto those turrets.
m1-tank-armor.jpg

Workers maneuver the turret from an M1 Abrams tank during maintenance. US Army
The Army is currently looking to sole-source that work to General Dynamics Land Systems (GDLS). As part of its justification, the service has released information on why it rejected three alternative bids, underscoring the sensitives at play.
For instance, one of the companies, Safariland LLC, has "experience with vehicle armor is limited to steel and lightweight composite armor and does not include any work with DU armor," a so-called Justification and Approval document, or J&A, dated September 15, 2022, explains. "They did not provide any experience with regards to the production or maintenance of Heavy Combat Vehicles, namely the M1A1 tank, nor any experience with the removal and installation of Abrams turret armor."
Another company, MCM Learning, Inc., provided "no specific prior examples of manufacturing or armor installation capabilities were provided, but... stated they do have staff with M1A1 FSR [Field Service Representative] and program management experience, to include removal and installation of M1A1 armor, as well as certified Depleted Uranium," according to the Army. However, "MCM also noted that it does not have access to the proper secure facilities to perform the work on DU armor."
The third offer came from PLUS Ops. "PLUS Ops is a Polish company offering project management services in support of US-Poland defense efforts; they did not return a market survey or provide any evidence of manufacturing or armor installation capabilities," per the J&A from last year.
The Army said it estimated it would take 64 months, or just over 5 years, to get any of these other contractors up to speed. The bulk of this time would be spent establishing secure and accredited facilities to do the work. Beyond the security issues, there are additional health and safety requirements that come with working with and otherwise handling DU.
poland-tank-turret-ja-new-vendor-timeline.jpg

US Army
It's unclear how long the Army expects it to take to change out the armor on a single turret. However, the service did say in the J&A that its need to hire GLDS was driven in part because work on the first batch of 28 turrets "must commence by January 2023 and conclude in December 2023."
gdls-work-schedule-m1-turrets.jpg

US Army
The J&A added that the Army estimated the total cost of converting those turrets would be nearly $6 million.
polish-m1-turret-cost.jpg

US Army
With all this in mind, it remains to be seen how American officials might seek to mitigate these issues as part of the transfer of Abrams tanks to Ukraine. It also raises the question of whether it might be possible to acquire export variants that already have downgraded armor and other systems from other countries. The U.S. government's use of USAI funds to help pay for the refurbishment of Soviet-designed T-72B tanks acquired from third parties for Ukraine last year provides an eye into how this might be done.
The two largest foreign operators of the Abrams are Egypt and Saudi Arabia. The Egyptian Army has around 1,360 M1A1s, at least on paper. The Saudi armed forces have some 370 more, 170 of which are reportedly in storage, according to the 2016 edition of The Military Balance from the International Institute for Strategic Studies (IISS).
Egypt and Saudi Arabia are both major partners of the United States. At the same time, however, both countries have, at best, complicated relations with Russia. So, it could be very hard to convince either of them to help in this endeavor due to the very real risk of upending their ties with Moscow.
egypt-m1a1.jpg

An Egyptian M1A1 Abrams tank. DOD
Some sort of covert transfer arrangement might be possible, but would only add the complexity of actually getting any Abrams tanks to Ukraine. The U.S. government could approach one of the smaller operators, but might similarly run into diplomatic or other hurdles.
Regardless of when the deliveries of any Abrams tanks might occur, training and logistics issues will further impact how quickly Ukraine's military can then get them into the fight and its ability to utilize them effectively. Altogether, it may well turn out that the biggest immediate impact of a planned transfer of M1s from the United States to Ukraine may be indirect.
German authorities confirmed today that they will be giving Leopard 2 tanks to the Ukrainian armed forces and authorizing other countries to do the same. Officials in Germany had previously indicated that they would not do this until their American counterparts agreed to send Abrams. The Leopard 2 tanks, which are in service with many European nations, could be transferred sooner than their U.S. counterparts, which may, in the end, have to be built from scratch or deeply manufactured. Regardless, Germany's supposed requirement that the U.S. donates Abrams if it is to donate Leopard 2 would be satisfied, although the M1s may not be delivered even for years.
This all comes as much attention is currently being given, and rightly so, to how fast any new major aid for Ukraine can from being pledged to appearing on the battlefield. There is a growing consensus that the Russian military is planning to launch one or more major offensives this coming Spring. There are additional fears that even if the forces that it mobilizes are of low quality, the sheer volume of fresh units could still overwhelm Ukrainian defenses.
All told, while it seems increasingly likely that the U.S. government announcement about a transfer of M1 Abrams tanks to Ukraine is imminent, it very much remains to be seen when those tanks may actually arrive in the country. If they are indeed from U.S. stocks, due to their classified armor, that could be a very long time.
Contact the author: joe@thedrive.com
stripe
 

LightEcho

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Link: The War Zone

There are embeded links in this article found at the above link, as well as a BUNCH of cool articles.

ACTUAL LINK TO ARTICLE: M1 Abrams Tanks In U.S. Inventory Have Armor Too Secret To Send To Ukraine
(embed pics for the article are illustrative of the issue)

M1 Abrams Tanks In U.S. Inventory Have Armor Too Secret To Send To Ukraine​

M1 tanks will be heading to Ukraine, but they can’t just be pulled from U.S. stocks due to their sensitive armor.
BYJOSEPH TREVITHICK|PUBLISHED JAN 25, 2023 1:10 PM
THE WAR ZONE
M1 Abrams Tanks In U.S. Inventory Have Armor Too Secret To Send To Ukraine

A group of M1 Abrams tanks sit in a holding area after being offloaded from the freighter ship “Resolve” at the port of Antwerp April 24. The third-generation battle tanks will move onward to Coleman Barracks in Mannheim, Germany, and will become part of the European Activity Set, a combined-arms group of vehicles and equipment that are pre-positioned in Europe to outfit U.S Army regionally aligned forces when they rotate into Europe for training or contingency operations. (Photo by Staff Sgt. Warren W. Wright Jr., 21st TSC Public Affairs). US Army / Staff Sgt. Warren W. Wright Jr. / 21st TSC Public Affairs
SHARE
JOSEPH TREVITHICKView Joseph Trevithick's Articles
FranticGoat
As the U.S. government is now preparing to send dozens of M1 Abrams tanks to the Ukrainian military, much attention has been given to concerns about how their complex electronic components and especially their gas turbine propulsion systems could make them particularly difficult to operate and maintain. Though it's not yet clear what specific variant of the Abrams Ukraine's military is set to receive, the tanks will have to be in a unique export configuration. This is largely due to the highly classified armor packages found specifically on U.S. military versions, which contain depleted uranium, and that are not readily exportable even to major allies. In other words, the U.S. can't just send its M1s to Ukraine.
President Joe Biden formally announced plans to send 31 M1 tanks to the Ukrainian armed forces today. The U.S. government will acquire the Abrams through the Ukraine Security Assistance Initiative (USAI). USAI provides funds to purchase weapon systems and other equipment, as well as training and other support services, on behalf of the Ukrainian military to support its longer-term needs. While the exact delivery schedule is not yet known, American officials have made clear the process will take months, not weeks. The first tanks may not arrive until late this year or even early next year.
In addition, it's not immediately clear whether the M1s for Ukraine will be entirely new production tanks or if they will come through some other source. The U.S. Army has thousands of older Abrams in storage that a contractor could be hired to refurbish to a like-new condition or that could be used as donors to help with the construction of tanks that use a mixture of new and remanufactured components.
sierra-army-depot-tanks.jpg

A satellite image showing rows of M1 Abrams tanks and other armored vehicles at Sierra Army Depot in California. Google Earth
No matter what, they will need to be an exportable configuration before heading to Ukraine. So a big part of whatever that process ultimately entails will center on their armor package.
Starting in the late 1980s, many new-production M1A1s for the U.S. military began to feature composite armor packages that include depleted uranium (DU), a metal known for its high density, and other materials. Armor packages that incorporated DU were included on subsequent A2-series variants, as well. Many older American M1A1s were later upgraded with the newer armor and other improvements, including hundreds that were eventually brought up to the A2 standard.
m1a1-tank.jpg

An M1A1 Abrams tank. USMC
To say that the DU composite armor packages are highly classified is almost an understatement. The development of the original version of this armor, often referred to simply as "heavy armor" or "special armor," was conducted under a top-secret Special Access Program (SAP) nicknamed Green Grape. SAPs have extra layers of heavily compartmented security protocols to protect the disclosure of especially sensitive national security information, as you can read more about here.
In 1988, the classification level was downgraded to simply Secret. Even then, a now-declassified operational security guide regarding the "special armor" for the Abrams included the following passage:
"If [the] Special Armor, including skirts and gunshields, is breached and the interior is exposed, a properly cleared (Secret) responsible individual will immediately cover the exposed area from view and initiate action to repair the breach by welding or will evacuate the exposed armor to a maintenance facility were repairs can be made."
m1-armor-security-guide.jpg

A portion of a now-declassified 1988 security classification guide for the M1 Brams's "special armor" package. A mention of the Green Grape Special Access Program, or SAP, is seen here. US Army
Fast-forward 35 years, and many newer armor packages for the Abrams, including ones that also incorporate advanced ceramics, and the operational security measures surrounding its protective features are still very tight. M1 variants are now in service in Australia, Egypt, Iraq, Kuwait, Morocco, and Saudia Arabia, but none of which are understood to feature armor with DU.
Instead, exportable armor packages that don't include DU have been developed for the M1 series. Complete Abrams subvariants with other reduced capabilities compared to the latest versions in U.S. service have been created specifically for export, such as the M1A1Ms that the Iraqi Army operates.
iraq-m1a1.jpg

An Iraqi Army M1A1M Abrams tank. US Army
The armor issue will put limits on how fast the U.S. government can supply any Abrams to Ukraine, whatever the source for those tanks might be. Even if the M1s for Ukraine are pulled from storage and rebuilt, it's far more likely than not that they will have armor packages that will need changing. This is a complex process, as evidenced by recent publicly available contract documents related to the sale of Abrams tanks to Poland.
Poland's future fleet of M1A2 SEPv3 Abrams tanks will include examples that feature refurbished M1A1 turrets. As part of the sale, the U.S. Army is facilitating the installation of a Foreign Military Sales-approved armor package onto those turrets.
m1-tank-armor.jpg

Workers maneuver the turret from an M1 Abrams tank during maintenance. US Army
The Army is currently looking to sole-source that work to General Dynamics Land Systems (GDLS). As part of its justification, the service has released information on why it rejected three alternative bids, underscoring the sensitives at play.
For instance, one of the companies, Safariland LLC, has "experience with vehicle armor is limited to steel and lightweight composite armor and does not include any work with DU armor," a so-called Justification and Approval document, or J&A, dated September 15, 2022, explains. "They did not provide any experience with regards to the production or maintenance of Heavy Combat Vehicles, namely the M1A1 tank, nor any experience with the removal and installation of Abrams turret armor."
Another company, MCM Learning, Inc., provided "no specific prior examples of manufacturing or armor installation capabilities were provided, but... stated they do have staff with M1A1 FSR [Field Service Representative] and program management experience, to include removal and installation of M1A1 armor, as well as certified Depleted Uranium," according to the Army. However, "MCM also noted that it does not have access to the proper secure facilities to perform the work on DU armor."
The third offer came from PLUS Ops. "PLUS Ops is a Polish company offering project management services in support of US-Poland defense efforts; they did not return a market survey or provide any evidence of manufacturing or armor installation capabilities," per the J&A from last year.
The Army said it estimated it would take 64 months, or just over 5 years, to get any of these other contractors up to speed. The bulk of this time would be spent establishing secure and accredited facilities to do the work. Beyond the security issues, there are additional health and safety requirements that come with working with and otherwise handling DU.
poland-tank-turret-ja-new-vendor-timeline.jpg

US Army
It's unclear how long the Army expects it to take to change out the armor on a single turret. However, the service did say in the J&A that its need to hire GLDS was driven in part because work on the first batch of 28 turrets "must commence by January 2023 and conclude in December 2023."
gdls-work-schedule-m1-turrets.jpg

US Army
The J&A added that the Army estimated the total cost of converting those turrets would be nearly $6 million.
polish-m1-turret-cost.jpg

US Army
With all this in mind, it remains to be seen how American officials might seek to mitigate these issues as part of the transfer of Abrams tanks to Ukraine. It also raises the question of whether it might be possible to acquire export variants that already have downgraded armor and other systems from other countries. The U.S. government's use of USAI funds to help pay for the refurbishment of Soviet-designed T-72B tanks acquired from third parties for Ukraine last year provides an eye into how this might be done.
The two largest foreign operators of the Abrams are Egypt and Saudi Arabia. The Egyptian Army has around 1,360 M1A1s, at least on paper. The Saudi armed forces have some 370 more, 170 of which are reportedly in storage, according to the 2016 edition of The Military Balance from the International Institute for Strategic Studies (IISS).
Egypt and Saudi Arabia are both major partners of the United States. At the same time, however, both countries have, at best, complicated relations with Russia. So, it could be very hard to convince either of them to help in this endeavor due to the very real risk of upending their ties with Moscow.
egypt-m1a1.jpg

An Egyptian M1A1 Abrams tank. DOD
Some sort of covert transfer arrangement might be possible, but would only add the complexity of actually getting any Abrams tanks to Ukraine. The U.S. government could approach one of the smaller operators, but might similarly run into diplomatic or other hurdles.
Regardless of when the deliveries of any Abrams tanks might occur, training and logistics issues will further impact how quickly Ukraine's military can then get them into the fight and its ability to utilize them effectively. Altogether, it may well turn out that the biggest immediate impact of a planned transfer of M1s from the United States to Ukraine may be indirect.
German authorities confirmed today that they will be giving Leopard 2 tanks to the Ukrainian armed forces and authorizing other countries to do the same. Officials in Germany had previously indicated that they would not do this until their American counterparts agreed to send Abrams. The Leopard 2 tanks, which are in service with many European nations, could be transferred sooner than their U.S. counterparts, which may, in the end, have to be built from scratch or deeply manufactured. Regardless, Germany's supposed requirement that the U.S. donates Abrams if it is to donate Leopard 2 would be satisfied, although the M1s may not be delivered even for years.
This all comes as much attention is currently being given, and rightly so, to how fast any new major aid for Ukraine can from being pledged to appearing on the battlefield. There is a growing consensus that the Russian military is planning to launch one or more major offensives this coming Spring. There are additional fears that even if the forces that it mobilizes are of low quality, the sheer volume of fresh units could still overwhelm Ukrainian defenses.
All told, while it seems increasingly likely that the U.S. government announcement about a transfer of M1 Abrams tanks to Ukraine is imminent, it very much remains to be seen when those tanks may actually arrive in the country. If they are indeed from U.S. stocks, due to their classified armor, that could be a very long time.
Contact the author: joe@thedrive.com
stripe
Coleman Barracks. Didn't know they were still operational. Got flashbacks when I saw that name. I know where those M1s are going.
 

Publius

TB Fanatic
The jack ass in the White House was instructed to send 30 of our tanks to the Ukraine and these tanks cost $9 million dollar$ each I think that works out to $270 million dollar$ + ammo and other equipment to keep them running.
 

Wildweasel

F-4 Phantoms Phorever
The above story indicates the absolute BLAST they will have in order to run roughshod over ITAR-Export regulations...

So no even MAYBE Good Deeds go unpunished.
I wonder if the final course of action won't be like the Abrams given to Iraq. Buy factory-fresh "Monkey Model" (export version) M1-A1s without the good stuff from Egypt's production line and send them to Ukraine.
 

NoDandy

Has No Life - Lives on TB
So, how long is it going to take to train a Uke crew to operate those tanks ? And how long will it take to train Uke crews to perform maint on those tanks ?

:ld:
 

Dozdoats

On TB every waking moment
Language warning as always ...


What Hell Tanks and Shytte
January 25, 2023

Greetings Me Droogs N Droogettes!
Whoooole lotta 'badness' going on 'round teh intarhwhebz. First was Glen Filthie having to put down his doggo Mort...pure suckage there... Then it was news about Gerard van Der Leun getting hit with the big C and being in hospice. That's two strikes...

So far....

This followed right after with Borepatch and his news about HIS doggo Wolfgang, and his possibly imminent Rainbow Bridge Moment. That one in particular totally sucks 'cos I know both Borepatch, The Queen of the World and said aforementioned Good Boi. Wifey and I were lucky enough to get to bread bread at Casa Borepatch, and met El Perro Grande. Wifey is crushed by the news... He is, and will be always a Good Boi. Big ole loaf of a doogie. One of those rare ones who don't know his age... a terminal 'puppy love attitude' and man, a ****ing crying shame he's at the end of a good run.

THEN as if things didn't suck enough in the bleggosphere, word is that Linda, the mate of the bossman, and webmaster over at From The Trenches World Report has taken her last ride to the great beyond... brain hemorrhage.

Times like these make me think of bunkers and getting meself and the doggo to said-bunker. Co-inky-dink is one thing, but man, that's a LOT to take in in a 48 hour news cycle. YMMV and MOIWYW. Lots of DOA doggos and Peepo...

Life continues however, sooooo

Now, far as internationalism and whatnot
Krainfeld apparently banned cops and DotGov from fleeing the Kraine from here on oot. Seems that one mook, the Deputy of Krainefeld, Timoshenko, bolted for Israel of all places.

Gee, whocouldaseen THAT (((coming)))?

I dunno... mebbe dis' ****in' guy?

Yah.
Then, the deputy defense minister Vyacheslav Shapovalov, he bolted/resigned as well. Now his case in particular is interesting. He's the guy in charge of the Logisitcs for the Krainian DotMil... which means alllllllllll that filthy lucre... er "international aid" flowed through his orifice. To me? Sounds like his 'nest' was appropriately 'feathered' so he bailed

Now having been supply for a period of time professionally, the terms like "Skim the best, bogart the rest, and leave the tailings for the grunts" comes leaping to mind. Not that we in our esteemed position in the US DotMil did that, but I will admit that there were some 'preferred units' that got 'first crack' at new high speed gear... in my case ALWAYS the front-line trigger pullers as opposed to the ****ing Rear Echelon Mother ****ers playing at 'being at war' got the 'cool shit first and foremost...' them ****ers in the rear got nothing from me.

In fact, proud to say, me and my bro are the reason that the Infantry in mid-04 got Plasma Cutters as part of their 'kit'... a company that makes them donated three sets to us directly, shorting put the 'normal' procurement process, aka the ****ing graft and bribery way... this was the very first time the Infantry had been given them... backpack models... VERY compact and VERY good at cutting shit... As it was, the Army had -no idea- what use they could be. When I read the field manual, I saw a potential use and talked to MY guys (2/8 CAV... my boys) and asked them if'n they could use something that could cut through armor and steel like a mother****er?

Of course they said yes, and I did the paperwork to get the donated COTS (Commercial Off The Shelf) equipment out to them. They used it to such effect that the Chief (CW5) of our section (the TIPO Theater Installation Property Book Occifer) went and ordered a ****ton moar of them to be issued to -everyone-

**** 'normal procurement processes' Aye?

Hence why the plasma cutter is now a big SOP item.
You're welcome.
My small contribution that I can absolutely say was due to me and mine.
Yeah yeah, lots of 'other' shit went on paperwork wise and whatnot, but the proof was in the test-fielding, which my 2/8 guys did magnificently. Used it to great effect cutting open safes, hard-to-reach shit, and whatnot.

Heard it was good as an improvised interrogation tool, but that's purely rumor...

(Albeit, melting a piece of 3/4inch thick metal, and telling a bad guy, as said metal liquifies, that you need 'operational immediate' info from, that the next stop with the melty-toy is his nutsack? Yeah.. I'd talk for damned sure if'n I were him... Jes' Sayin')

So, evvabody be (((rats))) bailing off the sinking ship, De Chermans came out and openly admitted that the EU and NATO are at war with Russia? OMFG... grab the popcorn...

This's Adriana's favorite vidya...
Purely laughs her ass off.
Still.
I miss her... OMFG
Can't beat the Swedish Chef.

But yeah... so many moving parts. Aesop seems to think that the German broad shooting her mouth off is a shot to the foot. Link HERE Now, he posits: "But for those who think one person saying it, or that sending tanks to Ukraine proves it, tell the class how Russian SA-2 missiles around Hanoi triggered the US to nuke Moscow in 1965." For that, a bit of a digression...

A 'for instance' for you 'bout them SA-2s...

I got an "Uncle" who was one of my early mentors in the dot 'don't exist' "stuff"(he's now dead from cancer, go figure... Agent Orange we know was the reason) who was an 'operator'... OSS back in the day... rolled over on and joined a few and ran a few extremely Black Christians In Action team(s)... shit was BEYOND MACV-SOG Black... like midnight Black ...this:

"...kind of shit never happened, shit will never happen and what ****ing drugs are you on? happened."

He that told me that the US -did- use SADMs (Strategic Atomic Demolition Munitions... mininukes essentially) on railway routes in and out of the extreme North parts of the 'Nam, trying to hit the railways that were carrying those SA-2s... he ran the missions, but wasn't on them... gave the orders and knew 'things'...

There's a reason there's exceptionally high cancer indicators and permanent defoliation and dead zones are ALLLLL up 'round those areas.

We don't talk about it, 'cos well, we don't. Never ****ing happened Aye?

And there's enough 'conventional explosives' even back then that could make a pee-wee nook look like just a really really BIG 'normal' bomb.

Jes' Sayin'.

Closest approximation I could say, what with US supplying the M1A (not sure if'n it'll be the A1, or A2 or AH (heavy), as the A2? No ****ing way.) to the Krainians is like the Rooskies handing over them R-12 nookular rokkits to the Cubans. The R-12/14 was a medium-range ballistic missile, capable of carrying a thermonuclear warhead. Better known by NATO as the SS-4 and SS-5. Both could carry from a one MEGATON to a 2.3 MEGATON warhead.

That was lot of 'boom-boom' back then.
Better'n what we had.
Hence our collective pants-shitting "brink of nookular war" shytte back then.

Now, here we are, supplying another country OUR 'bestest tanks' which, in the past have shown theyselfs to be the daddy of ALL Rooskie Armor.

As in "Who's you're Daddy bitch?" level asswhuppin'. Granted, the guys operating the export model(s) T-72 and T-90s were conscript level sub-Gump IQ'd Ay-rabs, but even then, every. single. time. we've seen a M1 variant up against any and all "T" variant Russian armor, the Russian armor gets smoked like a Havatampa Ceeee-gar in every case.

Any wonder Russia is like getting ready to go all "Cuban Missile Crisis" level?

We're going to give the Krainians the equivalent of Nookular Weapons 'armor wise' to them, and train them and then let them ride out against the inferior Russian Armor? Yeeeeeeeeeah... the Russians ain't going to be cool with that. "73 Eastings" comes leaping to mind when I watch "Russian versus M1's" when the 2nd Armored Cav Regiment took out 159 Iraq tanks, with a loss of six dudes KIA and 19 wounded ZERO loss of armor.

It's because, hardware speaking, the introduction of even export level M1A's are game changers. Trust me. I was an Anti-Tank Gunner for two years in the OPFOR fighting M1s and then I was a ****ing crewman on a ****ing M1.

I know intensely well of what I speak.

Now, this of course grants that the guys they put on the aforementioned M1's are not ****ing standard eight-ball Eastern Euro ****tards. An M1 is rather, shall we say unforgiving in it's ability to be AS DANGEROUS to the user as the enemy. It's why I'm medically retired from the DotMil... some asshole ****ed me up unintentionally during services... I'm lucky to be alive.

IF they get the proper training and IF they get the proper maintenance support as well as a GOOD logistical fuel and ammo resupply? Then yeah, the Krainians can go 'House' on the Russians. I personally would love to see some vidya of it, because as of now, all I've seen is shitty Krainian versus Russian T-64 vs T-72 shootouts that, by my standards are weak, lame and boooooooring. Dammit, Get me the good vidya Alexi... this weak assed shytte ain't good enuff.

So. As it is, comments always welcome.
YMMV, Don't Run With Scissors
I Remain The Intrepid Reporter
Big Country
 

Illini Warrior

Illini Warrior
you couldn't pull a single tank out of some country's inventory and send it into Ukraine without it being traced back ---

the stink is going to bad enough with just 30 tanks - wait until the US fighter jet deal gets further down the line - NO way in hell do they stay exclusively in UK airspace - first time they overfly Belarus or some Russian ship out in the Black Sea >>> all kinds of hell fires up - without a single bomb or rocket hit involved ....
 

Housecarl

On TB every waking moment
With the amount of comments being made about not exporting to Ukraine the "good" armor package but instead the "export" package, I wouldn't be surprised if they just pull a couple hundred out of US stocks in Europe and or the California high desert and straight up suddenly have them on Ukrainian strength with the "good" armor package.

Crew training wise, yeah that's a definite limiter but first thing to remember is that fourth guy, the loader, is usually the "new guy" on any crew. Assuming that this has been in the works for a while, how much of a lift would it have been to send a dozen veteran crews through Ft. Knox's course then have them back to Ukraine or "NATO territory" to "train the trainer" using vehicles already in NATO territory?
 

dstraito

TB Fanatic
IMHO: Have you ever seen a street beggar holding up a sign "Will work for food?"

They do not want work OR food.


Much the same with Zelinski asking for tanks. He and the upper levels in Ukraine just want the money so they can go on spending sprees buying luxury houses and cars in foreign countries.

Not to mention the kickback to the politicians that voted for it.
 

Doat

Veteran Member
Just how stupid can we be? Is it time to petition the congress to redesign a government that works for US?
 

Satanta

Stone Cold Crazy
_______________
They can just cut a deal with Afganistan to buy a few of those left behind and use our money to do it.

Or the dillhole-in-chief will buy himself a home in uke and start shipping them over for his 'Secirty' where they can promptly be taken for a test drive.
 

Macgyver

Has No Life - Lives on TB
So, not a tank expert.

The current version uses a ceramic armor, the prior version uses a DU armor that is classified?
Why would the old version be the one they are trying to keep secret and not the current one?

When we sell "mill" equipment to other countries we usually don't sell the latest and greatest or am I missing something?
 

Donghe Surfer

Veteran Member
Will U.S. military be sending depleted uranium shells with tanks? Just curious. Putin can then say it's a dirty bomb.
Nonetheless, if some supersonic missiles suddenly destroy all those tanks (Leopards, too), it won't look good (not that it looks good right now) for NATO/US/West fuqnuts.
 

1911user

Veteran Member
All of the armor used by the US military on tanks since the 80s is classified and not exported to any other country. That applies to DU, ceramic, and any other special ingredients or construction details of the armor.

There are versions of tank armor that are designed to be exported, but none of the current US tanks have it installed. Existing US tanks would need to be retrofitted before export and that takes lots of time and planning.
 

Macgyver

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Would tanks we had say in use for the training schools have the high tech armor on them?
One would think no since they are not being shot at.
Could those be a source?
 

Zahra

Veteran Member
We (stupidly) send tanks to escalate and prolong the conflict, our defense contractors are happy, our corrupt politicians get richer, and the Russians get to practice their missile aim a bit more. Futility and waste that all leads to more war.
 

1911user

Veteran Member
Would tanks we had say in use for the training schools have the high tech armor on them?
One would think no since they are not being shot at.
Could those be a source?
Not likely since that would prevent them from being quickly pulled into fighting without the armor upgrades. The US doesn't build export version tanks for US use.

Just like the us navy and air force flight demonstration teams. All they need to go to war is basically a new paint job.
 

Macgyver

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Not likely since that would prevent them from being quickly pulled into fighting without the armor upgrades. The US doesn't build export version tanks for US use.

Just like the us navy and air force flight demonstration teams. All they need to go to war is basically a new paint job.
I figured units that were being used for training were probably beat up hard. Like the old phrase "drive it like a rental"
 

CaryC

Has No Life - Lives on TB
The jack ass in the White House was instructed to send 30 of our tanks to the Ukraine and these tanks cost $9 million dollar$ each I think that works out to $270 million dollar$ + ammo and other equipment to keep them running.
WE all need to understand at least one thing: These tanks are not bought by Ukraine they are donated by the US tax payer. This is not a lend/lease kind of thing out of WWII.

And while our ...................resident in the WH made a big theater announcement about GIVING these tanks to Ukraine, there is an article in the War thread where the Pentagon came out and said they don't have 31 tanks to give to Ukraine.

Go big Joe!!!!!

And what they can get together won't get there before 2024. And the big problem with these tanks for Ukraine, is the jet fuel they run on.

The 2nd biggest problem is without the secret armor the US uses those tanks will probably be like the old Sherman's fire buckets on wheels, just waiting for a bullet to penetrate the hull. Any Ukrainian in that, is a suicide run.

The difference between those old Sherman's and these new Abram's is we had thousands of those old Shermans.
 

Chance

Veteran Member
Pentagon announced they don't have the tanks in inventory.

What they have is being used for defense of the US.

Opps.

Did THEY just set Germany up??
 

Housecarl

On TB every waking moment
Pentagon announced they don't have the tanks in inventory.

What they have is being used for defense of the US.

Opps.

Did THEY just set Germany up??
That announcement out of the Pentagon is IMHO laced with hedging. What they don't have are export armor package ones available "on the shelf". There are plenty of the "non-export" equipped ones in storage.

If they "really" want to send "export" versions before 2024 DoD and State are going to have to "wheel and deal" with Australia, Egypt or Saudi to get them.
 

Wildweasel

F-4 Phantoms Phorever
That announcement out of the Pentagon is IMHO laced with hedging. What they don't have are export armor package ones available "on the shelf". There are plenty of the "non-export" equipped ones in storage.

If they "really" want to send "export" versions before 2024 DoD and State are going to have to "wheel and deal" with Australia, Egypt or Saudi to get them.
Or they could go get the ones given to Iraq, take them to Germany to be refurbished (because after Iraqi maintenance for three years it's likely none are serviceable) and then shipped to the Uke border.
 

Publius

TB Fanatic
WE all need to understand at least one thing: These tanks are not bought by Ukraine they are donated by the US tax payer. This is not a lend/lease kind of thing out of WWII.

And while our ...................resident in the WH made a big theater announcement about GIVING these tanks to Ukraine, there is an article in the War thread where the Pentagon came out and said they don't have 31 tanks to give to Ukraine.

Go big Joe!!!!!

And what they can get together won't get there before 2024. And the big problem with these tanks for Ukraine, is the jet fuel they run on.

The 2nd biggest problem is without the secret armor the US uses those tanks will probably be like the old Sherman's fire buckets on wheels, just waiting for a bullet to penetrate the hull. Any Ukrainian in that, is a suicide run.

The difference between those old Sherman's and these new Abram's is we had thousands of those old Shermans.

This morning I told my congress rep that they should use the old lend lease program for the weapons going to the Ukraine.
 

Jez

Veteran Member
They can just cut a deal with Afganistan to buy a few of those left behind and use our money to do it.

Or the dillhole-in-chief will buy himself a home in uke and start shipping them over for his 'Secirty' where they can promptly be taken for a test drive.
How many got abandoned in Iraq and Afghanistan? Why not just grab some of those to send over? Do those not also have the super secret armor upgrades? If so why isn't there a worry about those?
 

Housecarl

On TB every waking moment
How many got abandoned in Iraq and Afghanistan? Why not just grab some of those to send over? Do those not also have the super secret armor upgrades? If so why isn't there a worry about those?
The Afghans never got M1s, those that were there were USMC or US Army.

The following countries besides the US operate the Abrams:

Saudi Arabia - 370
Morocco - 200
Egypt - 1360
Iraq - 321
Kuwait - 218
Australia - 59 to be replaced with 120 vehicles (recovery and engineering vehicles and 75 tanks based on the M1A2)

Sales/transfers impending:

Taiwan - 108
Poland - 416
 

Housecarl

On TB every waking moment
I figured I'd post these here to keep the main Russo-Ukraine War thread as uncluttered as possible...HC

Inside German Leopard Tank Sent to Ukraine​

RT 14:19
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p69gZ9HWVnI&ab_channel=Task%26Purpose


226,778 views Jan 27, 2023
This ammo storage on the Leopard is the main point that is seen as a possible problem for the tank. The claim is that if the front of the hull is penetrated in reality the whole tank will go up in smoke. Reports and video evidence show that 10 leopard tanks were destroyed by ISIS soldiers in Syria during one combat engagement. So what happened here? It could be that the Turkish army lacked the correct training and experience in combined arms warfare to deploy infantry around the tanks proximity in order to protect their armored vehicles vulnerable sides. Some versions of the Leopard do not have explosive reactive armor which means the Russian ATGM Kornet with a 600mm penetration rating would easily break through the armor. The Leopard 2 features spaced multilayer armor that combines steel plates, elastic and non-metallic materials throughout. The front of the Leopard 2A4 has vertically faced turret armor that is approximately 31 inches thick or 780mm. It was estimated that these tanks can resist 125mm APFSDS rounds fired from about a mile away. The Leopard 2A5 and newer versions feature angled arrow-shaped turret applique armor that is 59 inches or 1500 mm thick. So over time the tank has evolved to be fitted with more and more heavy armor.

But one of NATOs main advantages with their equipment remains their battlefield management computer systems which are unmatched by Russia. Russian forces have to rely on static filled radio transmissions and paper maps to plan operations.

Written by : Chris Cappy and Josh Simpson
Edited by : Michael Michaelides


Meanwhile the Leopard tank gives commanders a full picture and better real time understanding of the battlefield. The tank is equipped with the German EMES 15 fire control system that has a laser rangefinder as well as thermographic and infrared cameras. The laser rangefinder has a maximum range of 10,000 meters (6.2 miles) with a measuring accuracy within 10 meters at this range. The combined system provides the ability to hit moving targets up to 5,000 meters (3.1 miles) away while the Leopard 2 is itself on the move.

#UKRAINE #GERMANY #TANK

Task & Purpose is a military news and culture oriented channel. We want to foster discussion about the defense industry.

Email chris.capelluto@recurrent.io for inquires.

1,906 Comments

 

Housecarl

On TB every waking moment

Tank Chats #66 Leopard 2 | The Tank Museum​

RT 21:02
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4cl45gLB2U&ab_channel=TheTankMuseum


Tank Chats #92 | Challenger 2: Full Length |The Tank Museum​

RT 52:55
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=re-zMIOtSk0&ab_channel=TheTankMuseum


2,382,695 views Jun 19, 2020
Now with Chapters, in the description below! David Willey looks at the current in-service British Main Battle Tank, Challenger 2. David talks to soldiers currently serving on the Challenger 2, looks at the design and development of Challenger 2, where it has seen service and some of the tank's features. With thanks to the British Army for their assistance.
0:00 Introduction
0:29 Design and Development of Challenger 2.
25:34 Features on Challenger 2.
38:47 Challenger 2 operational service.
40:33 Talking to a Challenger 2 crew.
49:59 Challenger 2 upgrade.
 

Dozdoats

On TB every waking moment
I can recall the shock when an M1 was destroyed by an IED in Iraq. I later learned it was from an EFP, or explosively formed projectile.
 

Housecarl

On TB every waking moment

Composite Armor: increasing protection, with less weight​

RT 12:40
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwJK99uL1qY&ab_channel=JackalMountain


206,319 views Jan 3, 2020
Composite Armor: Background, Practical Demonstration, and Why it Works Composite armor using ceramics is a well known concept in tanks (ex. Chobham Armor), and armored vehicles. I'm going to give the background, description of how it works, and test out the concept in a practical exercise that is way more than a flimsy excuse to go shoot stuff in the woods...
 

CaryC

Has No Life - Lives on TB
This morning I told my congress rep that they should use the old lend lease program for the weapons going to the Ukraine.
Nothing wrong with doing that for sure, but I have to say you'll be disappointed in their response. I don't care what strip they are.

They are giving this stuff away as fast as they can. Saw a headline this AM where the Pentagon is ready to GIVE F16's to Ukraine.

Kind of makes one wonder why?
 

homecanner1

Veteran Member
My Euro friend tells me in email that the German Krauss Leopards are both too wide and too heavy for bridges in Ukraine.

Thus the Abrams.

Sounds like cross country off roads will be necessary.

Screenshot (12212).png

Dave at Southern Prepper on his Jan 27th video, reads letter aloud from mil viewer to his channel.
weighs in on the tank debate

namely "problematic gas propulsion systems" and also mentions DU rounds is a consideration as well

starting at the 15:00 minute mark to the 16:00 minute mark is the pertinent letter from yesterday's BOTG report

1 minute only in the middle of his 20 min vid
 
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