ENER 5 breakthroughs that will make solar power cheaper than coal

JustCause

Inactive
I'm in the process of designing and building a solar system to power my travel trailer (could double as a bug-out-trailer). Hours and hours of research into the project, and I have become fascinated with the resource. I think there could be a very promising future for solar power as the advancements continue.


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http://tinyurl.com/3ju4foe


5 breakthroughs that will make solar power cheaper than coal
Solar technology charges forward despite Washington's backward march.
Mon, Aug 08 2011 at 4:12 AM EST 17

Photo: Echo Energies
There was some good news last week. While Washington was busy holding the global markets hostage and placing billions in badly needed R&D funding on the chopping block, a new report from REN21 (the Renewable Energy Network for the 21st Century) showed that global investments in renewable energy jumped 32 percent to a record $211 billion, this despite a downturn in the economy and massive R&D cuts in clean energy.

It's a little reassuring that progress marches forward, despite our nation's best efforts to stop it. Solar in particular appears to be growing in leaps and bounds due in large part to a 60 percent drop in price per kW (kilowatt) production in just the past three years. In many regions solar power is getting competitive with coal power, and its price will continue to drop with the onset of a many new advancements in solar technology.

I've been keeping abreast of the latest solar developments happening at MIT, and over the past few months scientists appear to be having one breakthrough after another. Below I've listed five of the most impressive — taken together, these could mean nearly infinite solar energy, stored easily and safely at a fraction of the cost of burning coal:

1. Nano-templated molecules that store energy
MIT associate professor Jeffrey Grossman and others successfully created a new molecule called azobenzene using carbon nanotubes to structure the molecules so that they "lock in" stored solar thermal energy indefinitely. These molecules have the remarkable ability to convert solar energy and store it at an energy density comparable to lithium ion batteries. As Grossman says, "You’ve got a material that both converts and stores energy. It’s robust, it doesn’t degrade, and it’s cheap.”

2. Print solar cells on anything
An MIT team led by professor Karen Gleason has discovered a way to print a solar cell on just about anything, using low temperatures and vapor as opposed to liquid solutions that are expensive, require high temperatures and degrade the substrate materials. The resulting printed paper cell is also extremely durable and can be folded and unfolded more than 1,000 times with no loss in performance.

A-paper-solar-cell.jpg

Photo by Patrick Gillooly, Courtesy of MIT

3. Solar thermal power in a flat panel
Professor Gang Chen has been working on a revolutionary new way to make solar power — micro solar thermal — which could theoretically produce electricity at 8 times the efficiency of the word's best solar panel. Solar thermal usually requires huge arrays of mirrors that heat up an element to run a steam turbine. Chen's system, which is about the size and shape of a typical solar PV panel, uses nanostructured thermoelectric generators that capture the heat differential created by the sun's light striking the top of the panel. Because it is a thermal process, the panels can heat up from ambient light even on an overcast day, and these panels can be made from very inexpensive materials.

4. A virus to improve nano-solar cell efficiency
MIT graduate students recently engineered a virus called M13 (which normally attacks bacteria) that works to precisely space apart carbon nanotubes so they can be used to effectively convert solar energy. The virus acts, in a sense, as a tiny machining tool to pattern the nanotubes properly creating a jump from about 8 percent efficiency to 10.6 percent efficiency — a jump of nearly one-third.

5. Transparent solar cell could turn windows into power plants
The world's cities are packed with miles and miles of glass. What if all that glass could be used to harness the sun's rays while maintaining their transparency? This idea has been out there for a while, but current attempts have resulted in terrible efficiencies (less than 1 percent) and tend to block too much light, rendering the window useless. Electrical engineering professor Vladimir Bulovic has made a breakthrough that could eliminate two-thirds of the costs of installing thin-film technology by incorporating a layer of new transparent organic PV cells into the window glazing. The MIT team believes it can reach a whopping 12 percent efficiency at hugely reduced costs over thin film solar cells.

This is the stuff that Star Trek is made of, and it's a shame that our elected leaders see little value in spurring the next generation of energy tecnology rather than preserving tax cuts for oil and coal companies who are currently making record profits while spending millions on Capitol Hill to fight the very incentives that would unlock a 21st century energy revolution.
 
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Delta

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Sounds good.

Every time I think about putting solar panels on my roof I wonder what hassles I'm going to get into when I have to replace the shingles. I'd love to have a roofing material that is a solar panel.
 

JustCause

Inactive
Sounds good.

Every time I think about putting solar panels on my roof I wonder what hassles I'm going to get into when I have to replace the shingles. I'd love to have a roofing material that is a solar panel.

I believe that product does exist. But it's not cheap or very efficient. Part of the reason that a lot of people have the panels elsewhere on the property.

ETA: New product that might serve your purpose: http://www.dowsolar.com/
 

HuntingWolf

Membership Revoked
They been saying for over 20yrs that soon, very soon, the price of solar, and batteries will drop dramatically.

I'm still waiting.;)
 

Double_A

TB Fanatic
Sounds good.

Every time I think about putting solar panels on my roof I wonder what hassles I'm going to get into when I have to replace the shingles. I'd love to have a roofing material that is a solar panel.

A properly installed system will extend the life of a roof. That being said if your within a few years of replacing you need to do so before solar modules go ontop. All of that is explained if you have a pro contact you.
 

Satanta

Stone Cold Crazy
_______________
Anyone find specs as far as output on those solar shingles? Maybe a image of the other side of them and the wiring harness used?
 

JustCause

Inactive
They been saying for over 20yrs that soon, very soon, the price of solar, and batteries will drop dramatically.

I'm still waiting.;)

I'm with you on the batteries. But on panels, I'm getting them delivered for about $2 a watt. I remember just a few years ago when they were $5-$10 a watt.

The advancement that has me most interested is #1 in the article above: a panel that stores the energy. No more batteries.
 

Spooky

Inactive
My RV Solar System

I'm in the process of designing and building a solar system to power my travel trailer (could double as a bug-out-trailer). Hours and hours of research into the project, and I have become fascinated with the resource. I think there could be a very promising future for solar power as the advancements continue.

I designed my own about a year ago... I full time in my RV and wanted to be off the grid as much as possible....

Below: 3-Evergreen 120w panels... Also have extensions to tilt panels for winter however I have to park pointing Due East or the A/C shadow comes into play.... flat is OK for summer use.
DSC00714.jpg



Below: 45AMP MPPT Controller
This thing is awesome! I can USB the controller to my laptop and get ANY info you want.... (sorry for blurry picture)
DSC00717.jpg



Below: 3000W Modified Sine Wave Inverter (yes it is upside down, an inverted inverter :D) I Bought it at the inverter store works great! Will even run the A/C for 45min. before draining the batteries... I've run it on occasion for 1/2 hr. with no problems.
DSC00719.jpg



Below: 4-Gel cell 6v GC batteries in plastic marine cases... The trailer tongue was not big enough for the batteries... Also my breaker box and inverter are located to the back of the RV so it made sense (efficiency wise) to locate the batteries to the rear.
Also a used Honda 3000w Genny (not the quiet one)... For emergencies and rainy cloudy days. Hardly ever use it... Approx. 98 of 100 days are blue sky solar days in Quartzsite, AZ.
DSC00628.jpg



Below: 2 of the 4 Electric fuel tanks... 300lbs worth!
DSC00608.jpg



Winter in the desert... I LUV IT! Solar Panels in "WINTER MODE" (Note: Not a cloud in the sky... That's the color of FREE JUICE!)
Solarwagon.jpg



Screen shot of Controller information... this was not at "peak time".... Peak time is when the sun is perpendicular to the panels... about a 3-hour window give or take...
4-11-20111116AMSolarSpecs.jpg


I hope this inspires others to build their own system... its not to hard for someone with mechanical/electrical aptitude.

Night time in the desert... the smell of broiling steak is in the air!
RVatdusk.jpg
 

jed turtle

a brother in the Lord
a friend and i go around and round discussing these types of "breakthroughs" that almost never seem to show up in the market.

i have to constantly point out that by the time they finally show up available for sale, none of us will have :

1) jobs

2) money that still works.

so.....

go with what's available and do it now, while stuff is still available. i bought my panels years ago at $4 a watt.

they can be got for $1.50 a watt now, thanks to massive ramping up of manufacturing world wide with the simultaneous collapse of the world economy. or even cheaper if you go the route Loup suggests.
 

Kent

Inactive
5 breakthroughs that will make solar power cheaper than coal

Six, Obama doubling the price of coal with expensive, unneeded EPA regulations.
 

NC Susan

Deceased
Shopping results for solar shingles

http://www.google.com/search?q=sola...s=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

Unisolar 136 Watt Laminate PVL-136 'Solar Shingle'
$419.97 - Solar Sphere
Unisolar 144 Watt Laminate PVL-144 'Solar Shingle'
$488.97 - Solar Sphere
Sharp 62 Watt Solar Panel 6 Volt > ND-62RU1F
$467.95 - EcoDirect.com


eta: http://www.technologyreview.com/business/24383/page1/
dow_x600.jpg
Plug and play: Dow's Powerhouse Solar Shingles nail in like conventional shingles and interconnect electrically through rigid plugs at the end of each shingle.
Credit: Dow Chemical



snipped from



http://www.technologyreview.com/business/24383/page1/


Dow Chemical is moving full speed ahead to develop roof shingles embedded with photovoltaic cells. To facilitate the move, the U.S. Department of Energy has backed Dow's efforts with a $17.8 million tax credit that will help the company launch an initial market test of the product later this year.
In October 2009, the chemical giant unveiled its product, which can be nailed to a roof like ordinary shingles by roofers without the help of specially trained solar installers or electricians. The solar shingles will cost 30 to 40 percent less than other solar-embedded building materials and 10 percent less than the combined costs of conventional roofing materials and rack-mounted solar panels, according to company officials.


Dow isn't the first company to incorporate solar cells into building materials. In recent years, a number of leading solar manufacturers have launched small lines of solar shingles, tiles, and window glazes. But as Dow looks to bring its shingles mainstream, other solar manufacturers are backing away from the products. Suntech Power, the Chinese solar maker, and the largest crystalline silicon photovoltaic manufacturer in the world, has several integrated solar systems on the market, but with the recent downturn in new housing construction, the company has focused instead on ramping up conventional photovoltaic panel output, says Jeffrey Shubert, Suntech Power marketing director for North and South America.


According to analyst Johanna Schmidtke of Boston-based Lux Research, building integrated solar installations are, despite manufacturers' claims, still significantly more expensive than conventional rack-mounted solar arrays due to increased costs associated with manufacturing and installation. The devices currently occupy niche markets for those willing to pay a premium for the aesthetic value of the less-obtrusive integrated systems.



(more at link)
 
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NC Susan

Deceased

NC Susan

Deceased
from This Old House

http://www.thisoldhouse.com/toh/article/0,,1205726,00.html

Solar Shingles

By: Keith Pandolfi, This Old House magazine (Page 1 of 2)



After a long eclipse, solar energy is shining again. Its comeback is being fueled by an enticing combination of federal and state tax incentives, the desire of fed-up homeowners to lower their utility bills, and increasing concern over dwindling natural resources (not to mention presidential warnings to start 12-stepping our national addiction to oil).

But one of the biggest reasons for solar's renewed popularity has to do with aesthetics. In the 1970s, going solar meant mounting panels the size of ping-pong tables in cumbersome racks on your roof. But in the past five years, the industry has become more architecturally savvy, offering up solar-powered shingles that blend almost seamlessly with traditional roofing materials.

These systems—called "building-integrated photovoltaics," or BIPVs—combine solar cells with slate, metal, fiber-cement, even *asphalt roofing. Electricity is generated when the sun strikes a semiconductor layer, typically crystalline silicon, laminated to the shingle's surface. One shingle by itself doesn't produce a whole lot of power—between 50 and 200 watts, enough to run a window fan—but harness hundreds of square feet of them together, and you can generate enough electricity to power a whole house. The shingles get installed over new or existing roof sheathing, then an electrician (or trained roofer) has to wire the units together and tie them in to your home's electrical system.

Going solar doesn't mean cutting ties to your local supply grid. Most BIPV systems work in concert with existing power lines, which kick back into service after sundown and on rainy days, when the shingles don't produce much juice. And if you generate more power when the sun is shining than you actually need (not uncommon in places like California and Arizona), at least 39 states let you sell unused watts back to the local utility for a credit, thus making your electric meter do something really remarkable: spin backward. That's what Sheri Gage discovered when she and her husband bought their Live Oak, California, home earlier this year. They opted for an energy-efficiency package, offered by the builder, that included a 2-kilowatt BIPV system integrated into the cement-tile roof (general guidelines call for 1 kilowatt, or 1,000 watts, per 1,000 square feet of house area). The system cost $15,000, which they rolled into their mortgage, adding about $100 to the monthly bill. Come tax time, they'll receive a generous federal tax break thanks to the Energy *Policy Act of 2005, which gives homeowners a credit of 30 *percent, or up to $2,000, toward the cost of a system. Gage has no worries about the new roof paying for itself: Her last electrical bill was a paltry $3.85. "I am now a firm believer in the power of the sun," she says.

Even before new federal and state tax incentives, "the cost of generating solar electricity has fallen 95 percent since the 1970s," says Noah Kaye, of the Washington, D.C.— based Solar Energy Industries Association. But that doesn't mean it's cheap: Factoring in equipment and installation costs, the price of a kilowatt-hour of solar energy (the amount required to power ten 100-watt lightbulbs for an hour) is about 25 cents, versus around 10 cents for a kilowatt-hour of natural gas- or coal-generated electricity from the grid.

The economics of whether or not to install a system depend heavily on where you live. While houses in sunnier states can collect more solar power than those in northern climes, solar payback is strongly affected by local electric rates. "If you have a 2-kilowatt PV system in Albuquerque, New Mexico, it produces 25 percent more electricity than the same system in Boston," says Kaye. "But the savings are greater in Boston, since electricity there costs so much more."
Still, if the high cost is what's keeping you from going solar, you won't have long to wait before increased demand and advances in PV efficiency make these systems more affordable. "As electric rates continue to rise, solar prices will come down," Kaye predicts. "We think it's possible to make solar cost-competitive with retail prices, without subsidies, within the next decade." Manufacturers are already working on products that are even better-looking and simpler to install. For example, Atlantis Energy Systems has figured out how to sandwich PV cells inside semitransparent glass panels, a technology that could someday show up on the residential market as super-powered skylights. Just a glimpse of what's to come as the solar industry heats up again.
 

mistaken1

Has No Life - Lives on TB
We are talking about a technology that only produces power on average 25% of the time. 6 hours of serious production out of every 24 ..... assuming fair weather.

Solar power has its place but replacing coal fired power plants is not one of those places. Just like wind solar needs a real power plant to 'fill in' when these part time electricity producers stop producing electricity.

Just imagine running a manufacturing process on a large scale only to have the wind die or cloud cover roll in and the power company drops your service mid-production.

If it were not for socialism (taking your money at the point of a gun and handing it to people who buy solar systems) there would be one heck of a lot less solar systems in use today.

Yah I'm cynical.
 

mistaken1

Has No Life - Lives on TB
After a long eclipse, solar energy is shining again. Its comeback is being fueled by an enticing combination of federal and state tax incentives, the desire of fed-up homeowners to lower their utility bills, and increasing concern over dwindling natural resources (not to mention presidential warnings to start 12-stepping our national addiction to oil).

What is the payback on a solar system?

I looked online at a 2.88kw grid tie system for $10K (not counting installation or shipping).

Assuming net metering:
2.88kw times one hour is 2.88 kWh.

2.88kWh times 5 hours of usable sunlight on average in my area is 14.4kWh per day

14.4kWh per day times 365 days is 5256 kWh per year

5256kWh times my average electricity cost of $0.086 cents per kWh is $452.02 per year in electricity savings

$10,000.00 divided by $452.02 per year is 22 years payback time. (not counting installation, loan interest or socialism i.e. rebates and tax breaks).

Assuming I borrow the $10K to buy the system I will have a monthly payment between what $200 and $250 a month depending on interest rate and length of the loan (think car loan). So my solar system will pay for two months payment out of every 12 months. So for the first four years or so I will pay full electricity cost plus 10 months of loan payments. Then in the last 18 years I will save $452.02 per year in electricity (assuming no major engineered (socialism) price increases in electricity. Typical panels have a guaranteed output of 20 years. And if you are only allowed to install them on your roof there are costs to tear it down, re-roof and replace.

In my best liberal impersonation: "We must help the poor and those who are on the edge of poverty. We must save the planet by raising the cost of energy to make our green energy more attractive and to force people to conserve. We must ignore the fact that by raising the price of energy we are hurting the poor and driving people who are on the edge into poverty."

Instead of making traditional energy more expensive through 'policies' why not make 'green' energy cheaper? Oh wait, they have been trying to make green energy cheaper since the 1970s but we are still at 20 plus year payback on solar systems. Those evil oil companies, and gas companies, and coal companies are holding the green energy back, yeah that's it, they are holding it back.
 

Moto

Inactive
I designed my own about a year ago... I full time in my RV and wanted to be off the grid as much as possible....

Spooky...that setup is awesome. I'm so impressed, not only with the execution, but that you would do it at all. Kudos!!
 

Spooky

Inactive
Spooky...that setup is awesome. I'm so impressed, not only with the execution, but that you would do it at all. Kudos!!

Thanks!

Like I said... with a little forethought it really isn't hard at all.... The hard part is running the wiring and proper wire sizes... I went over kill on the wire because an RV is small and distance is short the cost wasn't all that much higher to do so.
Total cost for my system was $3400... I did get some top notch stuff though.... You CAN do it MUCH cheaper by building your own panels, installing lead acid batteries, and a simple (cheap) controller.... I see no reason one would spend more than $1200-1400 for a similar wattage/storage system on the cheap. Time wasn't on my side so I just bought the components and did a quick install.

It still seems like "Magic" to me.... I run everything like I'm plugged in (Except A/C) and I never run out of juice. The TV and satellite receiver runs all day and evening (110vac) (I admit it, I'm a news Junkie), and while I'm watching the TV I'm surfing the net on a 12v laptop that is ALWAYS plugged-in, water pump (12v), and about $200 of LED lights (at night), coffee pot (110vac) is on from AM to mid afternoon, I only warm things up in the microwave(110vac) NO cooking, fridge(12vdc), furnace(12vdc), stove and hot water tank(12vdc) run on propane (I get 8 days out of a small 4.7gal tank), I heat at night (12vdc fan motor) as the desert still gets cold in the winter (low 30's at night and 70-80 during the day, no need for A/C!) Almost forgot... I also run a 12vdc transfer pump to fill my water tanks daily (about 15min run time), and once a week I run a macerator pump (12vdc high amp, about 4-minutes) to pump the black water into a "blue boy" in my pick-up, I'm also constantly charging(110vac) my 18v DeWalt batteries....

I'm lacking nothing in my lifestyle... I do live frugally....

For those of you that think solar has to cost $30 to $40,000 to work... need to do more research (build your own panels)... and yes it does work at night... the batteries store your reserve to get you through the night....

Solar is not economically viable in places that don't receive 98% sunshine days.... it WILL WORK anywhere but the cost (of the system) per the kilowatts produced isn't worth it.

MHO (based on EXPERIENCE)... your mileage my vary... I'm defiantly a solar convert.

My next project is a passive solar water heating system.... I will document its construction....
 
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American Rage

Inactive
They want us to go solar so that we can use our natural resources to pay off china for all the goods we've purchased from them on machinery that was once part of our great manufacturing base.

Remember, America is the Saudi Arabia of coal, and China is building a new coal plant every week. So, where's their coal coming from?

Rage
 

vulcan

Inactive
Below: 3000W Modified Sine Wave Inverter (yes it is upside down, an inverted inverter :D) I Bought it at the inverter store works great! Will even run the A/C for 45min. before draining the batteries... I've run it on occasion for 1/2 hr. with no problems.
DSC00719.jpg
An inverted inverter? You made the electrical engineer in me giggle. :D
 
What is the quality of those units Loup? They seem inexpensive but I've read that quite a few 'inexpensive' solar panels are very cheap and don't last long. A twenty year warranty only applies if the place is still in business in 20 years and I'd guess, not Chinese.

Interested in experimenting but I wouldn't want junk either.
 

Tygerkittn

Veteran Member
I'd really like some input from y'all. I can't afford to go completely solar all at once, so I was thinking in steps.
This is a solar air conditioner I've had my eye on for a couple of years:
http://www.securusair.com/


Securus Direct Current System

Max Cooling 18,000 BTU/hr
Max Heating 20,500 Heating
Input Voltage 48 VDC (43.2v to 56 v)
Batteries 12 VDC (min 4) or 6V DC (min
Battery AH (each) 225-395
Weight 210 lbs
Charge Weight 45 oz (2.81 lbs)
Oil Charge 11.83 fl. oz.
Refrigerant R-410a
Compressor Brushless DC (BLDC) Rotary
Low Voltage Disconnect Yes
Sound (outdoor unit) 60 dB max

Dimensions:

IDU - Indoor Unit:
Height 12.1"
Width 34.25"
Depth 12.1"
ODU - Outdoor Unit (v1) :
Height 37.8"
Width 38.6"
Depth 13.6"

Line Set:
Length 23'
Max Vertical 15'


Features:

• High-SEER BLDC (Brushless DC) permanent magnet motor.
• No Inverter - 100% DC operation
• CE & TUV Certified
• Capacity dynamically sized 5,000 BTU-18,000 BTU per hour as needed.
• Solar powered air conditioning requires no AC power.
• Rotary Compressor provides high efficiency operation and slow start.
• Overnight operation available.
• Innovative control logic saves energy by matching cooling capacity to demand.
• Uses min. 4 standard 12v (or 8 6v) deep cycle solar batteries.
• Batteries are configured in series/parallel for 48 volt operation.
• Uses 4 or more standard 200w solar panels.
• Works with external standard solar charge controller.
• Solar panel and battery requirements will vary based on application and local sunlight conditions.
• Quiet operation.
• Can be AC-coupled if desired.




I emailed them for a price a year or two ago, I think this unit was $5000 and it needs 4 200 watt solar panels, I think I figured it at about $10,000 total.
I just read "Solar Power for Dummies" and it had some good ideas, plus I've been doing research of my own.
According to the book, a 60 watt bulb costs $130 a year. When we were flush that didn't sound like much, but now it does.
The book suggested solar tube skylights. The ones I found on google were expensive, but in third world countries they make their own with 2 liter soft drink bottles.
Here's a link to solar tube lights. Notice they look exactly like overhead electric lights, but they use the sun.
http://shop.solatube.com/default/daylighting-systems
Here's another site:
http://www.sun-dome.com/gallery.html
Evidently they qualify for the 30% tax credit, too. They have zero heat gain, unlike light bulbs, so they don't make your house hotter. However, it soon occurred to me they would only light the house during the day (they also have switches to "turn them off" if you want it dark!) so I thought, what about putting one of these in each room that has a tube light:
http://www.homesecuritystore.com/p-...security-flood-light-w-motion-activation.aspx
It would charge during the day from the sunlight coming through the tube lights (and the window!), it has motion detection so it wouldn't be on all the time, it would only come on at night when you're in the room that needs to be lit, that shouldn't take much solar power, right?
So you've now lit your house night and day without electricity or added heat.
Would that be worth trying, or should we just keep trying to save for a big whole-house solar system? I really want the air conditioner! I'm conflicted on the solar tubes, it seems scary to put holes in your roof. Maybe skip them and just put the solar motion detector light in rooms where it can be mounted near a window, and put the solar panel on it outside, just over the closest window.
Even not running our air conditioner this summer, our bill was $300. If we'd run the air, we figured it would have been $600!
 

LoupGarou

Ancient Fuzzball
What is the quality of those units Loup? They seem inexpensive but I've read that quite a few 'inexpensive' solar panels are very cheap and don't last long. A twenty year warranty only applies if the place is still in business in 20 years and I'd guess, not Chinese.

Interested in experimenting but I wouldn't want junk either.

The SUN brand that they sell are cosmetically challenged panels made by the other major panel manufacturers, either here in the states, or in Germany, or as they put it "made by one of the top 5 Mfr.s in the world". They may have a scratch or two on the frames, or they might be frameless, but they are fully guaranteed just like the non-blemished panels, as well as guaranteed to function the same as their "perfect" cousins. For half the price (or less), I don't mind a few scratches.

For a better description of their "cosmetic grades": http://www.sunelec.com/index.php?main_page=grades
What are Non-Cosmetic and Cosmetic Modules?

All modules are normally perfect and without cosmetic imperfections; however, some modules have slight cosmetic imperfections. These modules have the exact same power output, expected life time and 30 year warranty. Cosmetic modules have a significantly lower cost.


The SUN brand laminated (unframed) panels are the same as their framed panels, just designed for off the grid (non-grid tied applications). The laminate (frameless) panels are designed for mounting in your own frames or in a frameless situation (like if you are going to use an active cooling backing system). These modules also do not have the junction box (j-boxes) on the back, just the leads coming out. Here is a better description of the difference, and some pictures: http://www.sunelec.com/blog/renewab...tt-for-laminates-and-1-25watt-for-ul-modules/

Keep in mind that because the laminates (unframed) panels do not have junction boxes on them, they are NOT UL certified, so they need to be used in non-grid tied systems only, or they will keep the grid-tied system from passing code.

None of my systems are grid tied, mainly because I don't care on making any money on them, I want to run solar so that I can guarantee that I have power. The electric company can't guarantee that, especially if they get nailed by GICs from CMEs, or any other "major events" happen (like Fukushima, or when the russian hydro plant's impeller broke free and destroyed the facility). The most "maintenance" I have had to do on my systems is to trim the weeds back and brush/wash off the snow and "bird residue". Is it as cheap as the power company's power? It's getting closer every day, but it is even more so a prep item for when that cute set of aluminum wires outside everybody's house turns into just another bird perch. Then my 22,000+ AH of power (at various voltages) becomes priceless.

I have never had a problem with them, and I have not heard any of the people I deal with complain about the either. I wish more manufacturers would make unframed panels so that not only can you make use of the heat from the panels via active cooling, but you can increase both the panel's output, and lifespan.

Loup
 

Spooky

Inactive
The SUN brand laminated (unframed) panels are the same as their framed panels, just designed for off the grid (non-grid tied applications). The laminate (frameless) panels are designed for mounting in your own frames or in a frameless situation (like if you are going to use an active cooling backing system). These modules also do not have the junction box (j-boxes) on the back, just the leads coming out. Here is a better description of the difference, and some pictures: http://www.sunelec.com/blog/renewabl...or-ul-modules/

Don't forget to solder a diode on the positive lead... A diode will only allow voltage to travel one direction... to the controller... unless with the newer controllers you dont need them.(?)
 

LoupGarou

Ancient Fuzzball
Don't forget to solder a diode on the positive lead... A diode will only allow voltage to travel one direction... to the controller... unless with the newer controllers you dont need them.(?)

I make my own MPPT controllers, and am starting to make them to be actually put on the backs of each module so I can squeeze the last part of a percent out of the efficiency. But you are correct, a diode is needed if you are going to group them, or if you are using one of the older relay based change controllers (the PWM ones have internal diodes already). You might also want to put in a series fuse if paralleling them, but that is personal taste more than mandatory. I keep my fusing in the combiner boxes.

As others have said, Spooky, that looks like a fine job that you did.

Loup
 

Dare7

Senior Member
The book suggested solar tube skylights. The ones I found on google were expensive, but in third world countries they make their own with 2 liter soft drink bottles.
Here's a link to solar tube lights. Notice they look exactly like overhead electric lights, but they use the sun.
http://shop.solatube.com/default/daylighting-systems
Here's another site:
http://www.sun-dome.com/gallery.html
Evidently they qualify for the 30% tax credit, too. They have zero heat gain, unlike light bulbs, so they don't make your house hotter. However, it soon occurred to me they would only light the house during the day (they also have switches to "turn them off" if you want it dark!) so I thought, what about putting one of these in each room that has a tube light:
http://www.homesecuritystore.com/p-...security-flood-light-w-motion-activation.aspx
It would charge during the day from the sunlight coming through the tube lights (and the window!), it has motion detection so it wouldn't be on all the time, it would only come on at night when you're in the room that needs to be lit, that shouldn't take much solar power, right?
So you've now lit your house night and day without electricity or added heat.
Would that be worth trying, or should we just keep trying to save for a big whole-house solar system? I really want the air conditioner! I'm conflicted on the solar tubes, it seems scary to put holes in your roof. Maybe skip them and just put the solar motion detector light in rooms where it can be mounted near a window, and put the solar panel on it outside, just over the closest window.
Even not running our air conditioner this summer, our bill was $300. If we'd run the air, we figured it would have been $600!
The ones you linked to seem overpriced - try Home Depot or other big box home improvement store. They are very easy to install. I have one son who can't swing a hammer without smashing his thumb and has never not stripped a screw - he did my install. :shkr: He was the only one available at the time so I made him read the instructions, three times. :p I now have had two solar tubes in my north face kitchen ceiling since 2002, without issue, despite being installed by a construction/building incompetent. DS is quite proud but still calls to check on them every time it rains.

I love the light output, so much brighter than any incandescent or fluorescent bulb! They will pick up the faintest of outdoor light and enhance it. The first time you get up in the night during a full moon, you'll swear someone left a light on ~ as to the no heat ~ not exactly. My kitchen (remember it's NORTH FACED so no solar gain from the small over sink window or one exterior wall) stays approx 5-10 degrees hotter than the rest of the house on sunny summer days and yet it is the only room with more than one register for HVAC, meaning that, technically speaking, it should be the coolest room in the house - not the hottest. On the plus side there is no noticeable heat loss or cold infiltration in the winter.

While my furnace chimney was seriously damaged to the point that it was literally raining inside my furnace while leaking around the edges, too, AND many shingles vanished off my roof during the storms of 2008 (a tornado whipped through our area followed by a still massively destructive Hurricane Ike a month later) - even storms with golf ball sized hailstones haven't hurt the suntubes. I keep solar powered flashlights on a shelf near one of them and they stay fully charged so your idea of the security light would probably work as well.
 

Tygerkittn

Veteran Member
The ones you linked to seem overpriced - try Home Depot or other big box home improvement store. They are very easy to install. I have one son who can't swing a hammer without smashing his thumb and has never not stripped a screw - he did my install. :shkr: He was the only one available at the time so I made him read the instructions, three times. :p I now have had two solar tubes in my north face kitchen ceiling since 2002, without issue, despite being installed by a construction/building incompetent. DS is quite proud but still calls to check on them every time it rains.

I love the light output, so much brighter than any incandescent or fluorescent bulb! They will pick up the faintest of outdoor light and enhance it. The first time you get up in the night during a full moon, you'll swear someone left a light on ~ as to the no heat ~ not exactly. My kitchen (remember it's NORTH FACED so no solar gain from the small over sink window or one exterior wall) stays approx 5-10 degrees hotter than the rest of the house on sunny summer days and yet it is the only room with more than one register for HVAC, meaning that, technically speaking, it should be the coolest room in the house - not the hottest. On the plus side there is no noticeable heat loss or cold infiltration in the winter.

While my furnace chimney was seriously damaged to the point that it was literally raining inside my furnace while leaking around the edges, too, AND many shingles vanished off my roof during the storms of 2008 (a tornado whipped through our area followed by a still massively destructive Hurricane Ike a month later) - even storms with golf ball sized hailstones haven't hurt the suntubes. I keep solar powered flashlights on a shelf near one of them and they stay fully charged so your idea of the security light would probably work as well.

Thank you so much for replying!
I'll definitely shop around, I thought those prices were a little high. There's a Lowes very close by, I'll check them out first.
I never thought I'd hear from someone who actually has them, I really appreciate your input. I was wondering if they let in any light at night, and the part of the ad about "no heat gain" was a little hard to believe, I'm not surprised to hear that there is some heat gain.
Now I'm really excited about getting them! This will help with getting enough vitamin D, too, I bet! I have to MAKE the kids leave their video games and go outside, so this will get them more sunlight at least.
I'll bet it would help people with seasonal affective disorder, too.
 

packyderms_wife

Neither here nor there.
They want us to go solar so that we can use our natural resources to pay off china for all the goods we've purchased from them on machinery that was once part of our great manufacturing base.

Remember, America is the Saudi Arabia of coal, and China is building a new coal plant every week. So, where's their coal coming from?


Rage

Africa and Brazil.
 

moon73

Senior Member
The standard rhetoric of the day seems to be 'STOP GLOBAL WARMING' and 'CREATING JOBS'. Maybe if they didn't steal all of our tax money and left just a little for a cheap solar panel factory, things might be better.

EXAMPLE:
160-Watt Solar Panel $815.00.

Just a thought.:rolleyes:
 

LoupGarou

Ancient Fuzzball
The standard rhetoric of the day seems to be 'STOP GLOBAL WARMING' and 'CREATING JOBS'. Maybe if they didn't steal all of our tax money and left just a little for a cheap solar panel factory, things might be better.

EXAMPLE:
160-Watt Solar Panel $815.00.

Just a thought.:rolleyes:

No, they are keeping it high to do two things: Milk the last $ out of our wallets. And to make sure that nobody preps for what is coming.

Of course, you can always get one of the laminates, and knock it down to $133.20 for a 180 watt panel (you have to either buy 10 if you want them shipped, or have to pick them up at one of the warehouses if you only want one).
http://www.sunelec.com/sun-laminate-180-watts-2430-vmp-p-786.html

You could also get together with a local friend, order 10 of these:
http://www.sunelec.com/sun-laminate-148-watts-2430-vmp-p-785.html
Split the order so each has 5 panels, and end up with 740 watts each (5 panels) for $547.60 +S&H.

Loup
 

LoupGarou

Ancient Fuzzball
OBAMA'S GREEN PET GOES BANKRUPT...Evergreen Solar files for bankruptcy, plans asset sale.
http://www.bostonherald.com/business/technology/general/view.bg?articleid=1358998&pos=breaking

They got $58 million in stimulus cash to create 'green jobs'. Then they headed to China as fast as they could. I just love Hope & Change!!!

Just like every other job that gets created through stimulus. How else do you think that we are going to be able to pay all that debt back.

One job at a time, one natural resource at a time, and one acre at a time...

Loup
 

jed turtle

a brother in the Lord
Loup, regarding those laminate panels with no frames, i just had some feedback from a friend who said he knew someone who bought some and put one down very gently and it broke. just a heads up that they may need to be handled with kid gloves.
 

LoupGarou

Ancient Fuzzball
Loup, regarding those laminate panels with no frames, i just had some feedback from a friend who said he knew someone who bought some and put one down very gently and it broke. just a heads up that they may need to be handled with kid gloves.

As with any laminate, or even any tempered/safety glass, the edges are the weak point. Lay the panel down on foam until you get it mounted. And the best protection is gained by caulking the edges when you frame it (or otherwise protect the edges).

But the same is true for framed panels. Even though you can walk on the faces of them (once properly mounted (and they do during most installs)), if they get hit on the edge, they will spider all the way through. And it does not take much of a hit on the edge to do it.

ETA: And Corning is working on "Gorilla Glass" that will put a stop to the glass shattering.

Loup
 

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