ALERT RUSSIA INVADES UKRAINE - Consolidated Thread

mzkitty

I give up.

I didn't see this posted, and I'm on my phone so I can't bring this over.

US may help Ukraine strike Crimea - NYT report​


US officials believe that assisting Ukrainian operations in Crimea may be worth it as the US seeks to strengthen Kyiv’s position in future negotiations.​


By JERUSALEM POST STAFF
Published: JANUARY 19, 2023 01:31

Several anonymous US officials told the New York Times that they are growing more comfortable with the idea of helping Ukraine advance an attack on the Russian-occupied Crimean Peninsula on Wednesday.


The Crimean Peninsula, which has been under Russian control since its annexation in 2014, has become further integrated into Russia’s state infrastructure since Russia invaded Ukraine in early 2022. While the US has maintained that Crimea is still part of Ukraine, they have hesitated to become too involved in the Crimean battlefield.


According to the officials, fears that Russia would retaliate using tactical nuclear weapons have been assuaged, meaning the risk of assisting Ukrainian operations in Crimea may be worth it as the US seeks to strengthen Kyiv’s position in any future negotiations.

What is so important about Crimea?​

Situated between the Black Sea and the Sea of Azov, Crimea is home to roughly 2.4 million inhabitants – including around 70,000 Russian troops.


Illegally annexed in 2014, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky vowed in August to restore Ukrainian rule over Russia-annexed Crimea, a move that he said would help re-establish "world law and order."


"It all began with Crimea, and it will end with Crimea," Zelensky said in an address at the time.


Russia has shown no sign of abandoning Crimea, home to its Black Sea fleet, and has used the peninsula as a platform to launch missile strikes on Ukrainian targets. Major Russian bank Sberbank, which has faced tremendous international sanctions since the war began, announced Wednesday that they began operations in occupied Crimea.



American officials said they are discussing sending HIMARS rocket systems and Bradley fighting vehicles to Ukrainian forces so they can fight for control of the Crimean bridge – a critical supply route for Russia’s war effort.


“Ukraine could use Bradleys to move forces down major roads, such as the M14, which connects Kherson, Melitopol and Mariupol,” Seth G. Jones, a senior vice president at the Center for Strategic and International Studies, told The Times.


“Any Ukrainian infantry advancing through these areas would face significant fire from Russian positions, and Bradleys offer helpful firepower and protection for troops,” Jones added.


 

John Deere Girl

Veteran Member

US may help Ukraine strike Crimea - NYT report​


US officials believe that assisting Ukrainian operations in Crimea may be worth it as the US seeks to strengthen Kyiv’s position in future negotiations.​


By JERUSALEM POST STAFF
Published: JANUARY 19, 2023 01:31

Several anonymous US officials told the New York Times that they are growing more comfortable with the idea of helping Ukraine advance an attack on the Russian-occupied Crimean Peninsula on Wednesday.


The Crimean Peninsula, which has been under Russian control since its annexation in 2014, has become further integrated into Russia’s state infrastructure since Russia invaded Ukraine in early 2022. While the US has maintained that Crimea is still part of Ukraine, they have hesitated to become too involved in the Crimean battlefield.


According to the officials, fears that Russia would retaliate using tactical nuclear weapons have been assuaged, meaning the risk of assisting Ukrainian operations in Crimea may be worth it as the US seeks to strengthen Kyiv’s position in any future negotiations.

What is so important about Crimea?​

Situated between the Black Sea and the Sea of Azov, Crimea is home to roughly 2.4 million inhabitants – including around 70,000 Russian troops.


Illegally annexed in 2014, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky vowed in August to restore Ukrainian rule over Russia-annexed Crimea, a move that he said would help re-establish "world law and order."


"It all began with Crimea, and it will end with Crimea," Zelensky said in an address at the time.


Russia has shown no sign of abandoning Crimea, home to its Black Sea fleet, and has used the peninsula as a platform to launch missile strikes on Ukrainian targets. Major Russian bank Sberbank, which has faced tremendous international sanctions since the war began, announced Wednesday that they began operations in occupied Crimea.



American officials said they are discussing sending HIMARS rocket systems and Bradley fighting vehicles to Ukrainian forces so they can fight for control of the Crimean bridge – a critical supply route for Russia’s war effort.


“Ukraine could use Bradleys to move forces down major roads, such as the M14, which connects Kherson, Melitopol and Mariupol,” Seth G. Jones, a senior vice president at the Center for Strategic and International Studies, told The Times.


“Any Ukrainian infantry advancing through these areas would face significant fire from Russian positions, and Bradleys offer helpful firepower and protection for troops,” Jones added.


Thank you!
 

Abert

Veteran Member
Sorry, article is behind a paywall, so this is all I can see. At this rate, won't be any Ukraine left by the time someone in the west actually sends a couple of the "wonder weapon main battle tanks" to them.

@@@

Berlin Won’t Allow Exports of German Tanks to Ukraine Unless U.S. Sends Its Own

North Atlantic Treaty Organization allies have over 2,000 German-made Leopard tanks​

By Bojan Pancevski
Follow

and Elena Cherney
Follow

Updated Jan. 18, 2023 7:45 pm ET

BERLIN—Germany won’t allow allies to ship German-made tanks to Ukraine to help its defense against Russia nor send its own systems unless the U.S. agrees to send American-made battle tanks, senior German officials said on Wednesday.

North Atlantic Treaty Organization allies have over 2,000 German-made Leopard tanks, considered to be among the most sophisticated in the world, according to the London-based International Institute for Strategic Studies.


@@@@

However, I did track this down..... wait-n-see

@@@@


Germany: No Leopard tanks to Kiev unless US agrees to send its Abrams

By Al Mayadeen English
Source: Wall Street Journal
18 Jan 23:41

WSJ reports that Berlin will not allow sending German-made tanks from allied countries to Ukraine until Washington approves sending US-made Abrams main battle tanks.

Berlin will not allow allies to send German-made tanks to Kiev unless Washington agrees to ship to Ukraine US-made tanks, a German senior official stated on Wednesday according to The Wall Street Journal.

The International Institute for Strategic Studies reported that NATO countries have more than 2,000 German-made Leopard tanks, which are considered to be one of the most advanced battle tanks currently in the world.

Earlier, several European countries announced readiness to provide Ukraine with German-made battle tanks if Berlin approves it.

Among these countries are Finland, Denmark, and Poland, while the UK said it would ship some 14 Challenger 2 battle tanks and an older version of the advanced Leopard.

The UK became the first country to announce plans for the delivery of heavy battle tanks to Kiev. The supply of the Challenger 2 tanks and additional artillery systems are intended to assist Ukrainian forces "push back the Russian troops," said British Prime Minister Rishi Sunak.

“One can’t differentiate between direct exports (of German-made tanks) and exports by third countries,” a German official said on Wednesday, the media outlet reported.

Sending advanced, complex military equipment to Ukraine would be considered as a major escalation by the West in its arming of Kiev, which Germany has repeatedly warned against due to the increased risk of causing a direct clash between NATO and Russia, noted the news site.

German Chancellor Olaf Scholz announced earlier today that Berlin is “strategically interlocked” with its allies and partners regarding the decisions on how to provide support to Ukraine, which also includes tanks.

According to the WSJ, a meeting between representatives of 50 countries supporting Ukraine, known as the Ukraine Defense Contact Group, is planned to take place on Friday at the American Ramstein Air Base in Germany, where they will discuss a new batch of military aid to Ukraine.

According to informed diplomats from several NATO states, the approval to send German-made Leopard tanks from third countries will be one of the main topics of the meeting.

Despite all public discussions regarding sending German tanks to Ukraine, officials from Berlin said no official requests have been submitted so far, noting that when such requests come through, the government would respond quickly, adding that the approval period might span between a few days and a few weeks.

A senior European official, however, stated that it is unlikely that Germany will make a decision in the upcoming meeting on Friday to allow sending the Leopard tanks to Kiev.

US refusal to send its own main battle tanks making Scholz reluctant

Berlin's government is currently divided on the matter, the news site added.

Parties in the Chancellor's coalition, including the Free Democrats and the Green Party, are in favor of sending the tanks to Kiev, while his left-leaning party, the Social Democrats, have been hesitant on the decision, especially since Washington is rejecting to send its Abrams main battle tanks.

In April last year, Scholz suggested that sending any Western tanks to Ukraine would increase the risk of a nuclear war between NATO and Russia.

However, according to two of his aides, as per the WSJ, his concerns have calmed as a group of global powers, including close allies to Moscow, such as China's President Xi Jinping, have denounced threats of using nuclear arms in Ukraine.

Yet, the German Chancellor remains wary, the news site added.

Scholz responded to a question addressed to him during the World Economic Forum in Davos earlier today regarding his reluctance to send Leopard battle tanks to Ukraine, stressing that he was worried that the war in Ukraine could become a global conflict.

“The Ukrainians can rely on our support in their courageous fight but it is also clear that we want to avoid this becoming a war between Russia and NATO,” he said.

Earlier today, citing industry sources, the German newspaper Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung (FAZ) reported that there is a possibility that Germany may ship 10-15 Leopard 2 tanks to Ukraine this year.

This comes after the chief executive of German defense group Rheinmetall, Armin Papperger, told Germany's Bild am Sonntag that even though his firm houses 22 Leopard 2 tanks, and 88 Leopard 1 tanks, it would still take about a year to ship them to Ukraine.

The German army has already given up most of its Leopard tanks of older designs and exported them to Turkey, Greece, and Denmark, among other clients. The army still possesses around 300 modern versions, but they have no plans of selling them. The army reportedly refused to provide additional details on the strengths, and equipment of associations, or units.
Well the underlying report that the WSJ is basing this on (linked below) listing 2000 Leopard 2 Tanks in NATO is correct (not all operational - and many in storage) but this report also shows the TOTAL - of EVERY Leopard 2 Tank in NATO totals 2,343! - so for NATO to send 2000 - NATO would only have 342 remaining!
Plus you have nations that would likely NOT be willing - Turkey with 316 and Greece with 353 of them. Several other nations would also likely not want to give away ALL their tanks.
Once again MORE SPIN - likely they can get 200 or so of the older 2A4 which most NATO nations have such as Finland which has 100 of this model In Storage.

Link to the report the WSJ used for their numbers:

As for the WSJ article this (no pay wall) article quotes from the WSJ and has other information.
 

Cedar Lake

Connecticut Yankee
Olena Zelensky in Davos says: 'how can the world achieve climate neutrality if it can't stop Russi@n aggression.'
RT 30secs
View: https://twitter.com/sophiadahl1/status/1615317937723695104?s=20&t=SAFy383vBfNkMwfHv_mkcw
Their tweets (messenges) are unhinged, there is something deeply wrong with this couple/family.
Didn't she tell him to stay away from the windows before she went to her ''meeting'' in Brussells.
 

CaryC

Has No Life - Lives on TB
With Arestovich (a key adviser to Zelensky and part of the inner circle) quitting / being removed brings to mind the old saying about: like rats abandoning a sinking ship!
If nothing else Arestovich is a politicians politician - especially in Ukraine where it can be (and is) a real Life or Death occupation. Normally an action like his - especially attacking Zelensky for his policies would be a fast death sentence! That he is still above ground implies that he must have the support of a number of other key officials. Hard to read the tea leaves (even with google translate) but this points to likely a split within the ruling circles in Ukraine.
So the question is WHY - this war and related $$$$ has been VERY VERY good for this ruling circle (of the most corrupt nation in Europe). Could it be that the information they have (not the PR SPIN) shows that this war is about over for Ukraine?
After Millions displaced, hundreds of thousands dead, massive destruction and likely the loss of half the country the remaining population may not be too happy with their Actor President and his team - kind of like the Italian treatment of Mussolini ( and his mistress Clara Petacci) at the end of WW2 - especially when the facts come out that this could have ended in April. Or more - never need to start.

Politicians - like RATS know when to abandon a sinking ship
BTW - opted to not post a photo of how this ended for Mussolini - you can look it up - GRAPHIC
Over the last week or so, I've been noticing a slight shift in reporting by MSM and am thinking everyone is beginning to think the same thing. While at the same time, supporting Ukraine. That is political double speak. But when it starts, something is up.

Kind of in the same frame of when a politician says they won't resign, after being caught with another man's wife, and then resigns the next day.

And I know what happened to Mussolini. Almost old enough to remember - almost. LOL.

One headline today at MSM is Zippy thinks Putin is dead.

The following is a long article, but gives the history of this conflict going back to 1991, through cables sent between ranking officials in US, Europe, Russia. Through wikileaks, which throughout the article it is mentioned about the division of people in Ukraine: Here is the first couple of paragraphs

Dozens Of WikiLeaks Cables Show US Knew NATO Expansion Was Russia's Bright Red Line​

Via American Committee for US-Russia Accord,
Nearly a year in, the war in Ukraine has cost hundreds of thousands of lives and brought the world to the brink of, in President Joe Biden’s own words, “Armageddon.” Alongside the literal battlefield has been a similarly bitter intellectual battle over the war’s causes.

Commentators have rushed to declare the long-criticized policy of NATO expansion as irrelevant to the war’s outbreak, or as a mere fig leaf used by Russian President Vladimir Putin to mask what Condoleezza Rice and Robert Gates recently called “his messianic mission” to “reestablish the Russian Empire.” Fiona Hill, a presidential advisor to two Republican administrations, has deemed these views merely the product of a “Russian information war and psychological operation,” resulting in “masses of the US public … blaming NATO, or blaming the US for this outcome.”

Yet a review of the public record and many dozens of diplomatic cables made publicly available via WikiLeaks shows that US officials were aware, or were directly told over the span of years, that expanding NATO was viewed by Russian officials well beyond Putin as a major threat and provocation, that expanding it to Ukraine was a particularly bright red line for Moscow, that it would inflame and empower hawkish, nationalist parts of the Russian political spectrum, and that it could ultimately lead to war.

In a particularly prophetic set of warnings, US officials were told that pushing for Ukrainian membership in NATO would not only increase the chance of Russian meddling in the country, but risked destabilizing the divided nation — and that US and other NATO officials pressured Ukrainian leaders to reshape this unfriendly public opinion in response. All of this was told to US officials in both public and private by not just senior Russian officials going all the way up to the presidency, but by NATO allies, various analysts and experts, liberal Russian voices critical of Putin, even, sometimes, US diplomats themselves.

Much, much more at link.

 

Cedar Lake

Connecticut Yankee

Kremlin: Delivery of Weapons Capable of Striking Russia Elevates Ukraine Conflict to New Level​

5 hours ago 2023-01-19
Ukrainian soldiers move a US-supplied M777 howitzer. - Sputnik International, 1920, 19.01.2023

© AP Photo / Efrem Lukatsky

The United States is said to be considering providing Ukraine with weapons to strike the Crimean Peninsula, which became part of Russia in 2014 after nearly 97% of the population voted in favor of reunification.
The potential delivery of weapons capable of targeting Russia from Ukraine is extremely dangerous and would take the conflict to a new level, Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov has warned.
He likewise stressed that such a development would not bode well for global and pan-European security.
Peskov added that the statements by the Russian Ambassador to the US Anatoly Antonov that Russian forces would not leave strikes on Russian territory, including Crimea, unanswered, reflected the Kremlin's official position.
Ukrainian helicopters fly over a Russian warship  during Sea Breeze 2021 maneuvers, in the Black Sea, Friday, July 9, 2021 - Sputnik International, 1920, 19.01.2023
Military
Report: US Considering Providing Ukraine With Weapons to Strike Crimea
10 hours ago
Earlier in the day, Antonov said that the Russian army would destroy any weapons provided by the United States and other western countries to Ukraine, and retaliate attacks on the Russian territory, including the Crimean Peninsula.
The US and several other western countries recently announced new military supplies to Kiev, including battle tanks, armored infantry vehicles and artillery systems. The US Department of State said that Ukrainians may acquire the possibility to carry out strikes against Russian troops in Crimea thanks to weapons supplied by Washington.

"It is said that American MLRS HIMARS as well as Bradley Infantry Fighting Vehicles could be used in the future to launch the offensive in the Crimean direction. Commentators naively believe that Russia will not respond to attacks on its territory. It should be clear for everyone – we will destroy any weapons supplied to the Zelensky's regime by either the United States or NATO."
Anatoly Antonov
Russian Ambassador to the US
He added that the latest statements by US officials were becoming more and more "belligerent," and the US State Department, through its "out-of-touch assertions," was pushing Ukraine "to carry out terrorist attacks in Russia."
The ambassador also said that further pumping Kiev with arms would only lead to an increase in civilian casualties.
Concluding his response, Antonov urged "thinking into" statements made by Russian President Vladimir Putin and Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov and added that it was "impossible to defeat the Russian Federation."
On Wednesday, US media reported, citing sources, that the Biden administration was now taking a softer stance on supplying Kiev with weapons capable of conducting strikes against Crimea, even though this could intensify hostilities. Earlier in the day, State Department spokesman Ned Price said that Washington did not encourage Ukraine to attack the Russian territory, however, it did not recognize Crimea as part of Russia.
Meanwhile, the White House hinted that a new military assistance package for Ukraine could be announced as soon as the end of the week. Other western countries are expected to make similar announcements at a gathering at the US Ramstein air base in Germany on January 20.
Russia has previously sent a note to NATO countries to protest the supplies of weapons to Ukraine, with Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov emphasizing that any cargo that contains weapons for Ukraine will become a legitimate target for the Russian forces.
  • After reading the article several times, I realized that there's a very important distinction in that ''any cargo that contains weapons will become a legitimate target''.
  • Locate, identify, & destroy.
  • Where or when? Which comes first?
Today's article has Russia's spokesmen emphasizing @ 3 separate times;
1) that any cargo that contains weapons for Ukraine will become a legitimate target to be destroyed for the Russian forces,
2) that the Russian army would destroy any weapons provided by the United States, other western countries & NATO.
 

LightEcho

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Instead of de-escalating, the controlling devils are showing their cards as pushing for world war. Russia is now sanctioned to do whatever they have to for survival. There are no more red lines that need to be crossed. The time for Russia (and China and Venezuela and Mexico) to strike the US is now prime. The US cannot mobilize quickly but there are still a few problems they can cause.

Asymmetric warfare is the start. Sabotage of infrastructure. Cripple any remnants of a producing economy with terror strikes. Pit the people against their government to cause distrust, then rebellion. All this has been going on for 60 years subtly but now the action will become more overt.

The action in Ukraine will be forced into hyperdrive to preclude new weapons systems arrival and worse loss of fighting forces. This would not be a good time to take a job as a truck driver or train engineer in Poland/ Hungary /Romania/ Ukraine. Targeting of every shipment coming in is expected.
 
Instead of de-escalating, the controlling devils are showing their cards as pushing for world war. Russia is now sanctioned to do whatever they have to for survival. There are no more red lines that need to be crossed. The time for Russia (and China and Venezuela and Mexico) to strike the US is now prime. The US cannot mobilize quickly but there are still a few problems they can cause.

Asymmetric warfare is the start. Sabotage of infrastructure. Cripple any remnants of a producing economy with terror strikes. Pit the people against their government to cause distrust, then rebellion. All this has been going on for 60 years subtly but now the action will become more overt.

The action in Ukraine will be forced into hyperdrive to preclude new weapons systems arrival and worse loss of fighting forces. This would not be a good time to take a job as a truck driver or train engineer in Poland/ Hungary /Romania/ Ukraine. Targeting of every shipment coming in is expected.
Not a good time to reside in Lviv.

As an aside - Falling window syndrome could be by Western origin. Same with falling helicopters.

===
.
 

Oreally

Right from the start
not a good
Not a good time to reside in Lviv.

As an aside - Falling window syndrome could be by Western origin. Same with falling helicopters.

===
.
not a good time to live anywhere today, actually.

at least here, it is the breadbasket of the world. and i have a deep basement.

10 eggs today, $1.90.
 

Abert

Veteran Member
Well - he sure was alive back in March / April when Zelensky killed a proposal that only needed final a approval that would have ended this prior to 100,000+ deaths - Bottom line the US will NOT allow this to end - just the latest - and not even up to Ukraine's normally much more polished PR / Talking points - you would think they lost their top PR guy?
 

Abert

Veteran Member
Kind of a follow up to my earlier post (#44,661) on Arestovich (top SPIN Doctor) leaving - but one correction on that post.
I commented on how he managed to toss "Z" under the bus and is still alive - well the article below notes:
Not only was he fired (he reportedly tried to resign), but his name popped up today on the Ukrainian hit list reserved for enemies of Ukraine. That’s right. After a year of faithfully telling lies for Zelensky, he says something truthful and next thing you know he has a target for execution on his back.

Also on this helicopter "crash" taking out 3 top officials - with reports of a "fireball" taking out the tail rotor? Well while I know little about this helicopter - being a former Army helicopter pilot - tail rotors do not generally blow up in a fireball - they can fail which will often result in the aircraft crashing - but as inferred in the article - good chance it was taken out.

Another good article by Larry Johnson (2 min read - but some good comments)
 

Abert

Veteran Member

Damage Control
@WarInUkraineYet
·
1h

Pantsir systems being placed, one in a high-rise in central Moscow and one in the country's Ministry of Defence. View: https://twitter.com/WarInUkraineYet/status/1616103162041241600
A bit of information:
The Pantsir was designed to provide point air defense of military, industrial and administrative installations against aircraft, helicopters, precision munitions, cruise missiles and UAVs; and to provide additional protection to air defense units against enemy air attacks employing precision munitions, especially at low to extremely low altitudes.

NATO may or may not get into this directly - but without question Russia is preparing for that event.
 

WTSR

Veteran Member

The proposed package of military assistance to be provided to Ukraine:

14 Challenger 2 tanks
100 modern rockets (?)
30 SPG AS90
200 BMP/BTR
200 Senator armored vehicles
1 NASAMS air defense battery
14 tanks Leopard 2
100 BMP Bradley
55 armored vehicles
100 BTR M113
18 self-propelled guns M109А6
250 BTR M1117
138 HMMWV armored vehicles
100 Stryker APC
GLSDB
36 105mm howitzers
1 Patriot Air Defense/O Battery
6 Nasams air defense batteries
18 HIMARS
40(?) AMX-10RC wheeled tanks
(?) Bastion armored cars
40 Marder BMP
1 Patriot AA/O Battery
3 Iris-T air defense batteries + 3 TRML-4D radars
2 TRML-4D radar
16 Zuzana-2 SPG
120 T-72 tank
1 Patriot AA/O Battery
50 CV-90 BMP
12 Archer SPG
1 AA/O SAMP/T Battery
26-30 SAU Dana-M2
10+ howitzers 155mm FH70
10+ howitzers 122mm D30
? SAU Caesar (?)
 

Oreally

Right from the start

The proposed package of military assistance to be provided to Ukraine:

14 Challenger 2 tanks
100 modern rockets (?)
30 SPG AS90
200 BMP/BTR
200 Senator armored vehicles
1 NASAMS air defense battery
14 tanks Leopard 2
100 BMP Bradley
55 armored vehicles
100 BTR M113
18 self-propelled guns M109А6
250 BTR M1117
138 HMMWV armored vehicles
100 Stryker APC
GLSDB
36 105mm howitzers
1 Patriot Air Defense/O Battery
6 Nasams air defense batteries
18 HIMARS
40(?) AMX-10RC wheeled tanks
(?) Bastion armored cars
40 Marder BMP
1 Patriot AA/O Battery
3 Iris-T air defense batteries + 3 TRML-4D radars
2 TRML-4D radar
16 Zuzana-2 SPG
120 T-72 tank
1 Patriot AA/O Battery
50 CV-90 BMP
12 Archer SPG
1 AA/O SAMP/T Battery
26-30 SAU Dana-M2
10+ howitzers 155mm FH70
10+ howitzers 122mm D30
? SAU Caesar (?)
damn

that is definitely gonna help, or ... cause something else...
 

Abert

Veteran Member
Come on man, stop harshing muh narrative.

Besides, it looks like it is 148 tanks.
Correct - likely the best they will get with the German Leopard 2 (older 2A4) Tanks is around 200 - mainly from NATO nations that no longer need / use them - like Finland which has 100 of this model In Storage.
Talk of NATO sending 2000 is delusional - as NATO only has a total of 2300 - all versions (many non-operational or in storage)

Yes - Ukraine had around 2000 tanks at the start of the war - all Russian - not sure on the count but likely T-72's - ALL taken out by the initial Russian SMO when they only had only around 100k troops.

So what if NATO did send their entire inventory of Leopard tanks (most are the older 2A4's) - would Ukraine now have the WONDER WEAPON to march to Moscow?

Maybe not - back in the 70's Germany had several of the T72M1(export version) for testing against their current Leopard 2A4. Based on actual testing Germany identified a number of issues with the 2A4 vs T-72 which resulted in major modification and the 2A5 being produced as a replacement. So bottom line the Leopard 2A4 is effectively equivalent (maybe a bit less so) to the Russian T-72

So if Russia with only 100k troops had no problem taking out 2000 T-72's - I would not want to be a tank crewman in a German Leopard 2A4 - they would do no better(survive) than the T-72's did on the battle field. Especially now with Russia having over 500k+ troops in place and much more effective drone and missile operations than when they started.

The ONLY GAME CHANGER would be the US entering this war directly with the M1 Abrams - and several hundred thousand troops - the way things are going - VERY LIKELY
 

Cedar Lake

Connecticut Yankee
Last edited:
Top