DISASTER Winter-Induced Septic Problems

[FaithfulSkeptic]

Last Saturday I went to Menards to pick up a few items, and when I returned home and pulled the car back in the garage, I heard my septic alarm going off. We have a primary 1200 ga digester, and a 2nd 1000 gallon tank with a grinder pump that sends it up to a mound system.

I figured the pump died (again ) so I just shut off the alarm. Typically, it goes off at about 500 to 600 gallons full. Sunday night I called the septic guy and he said to check the pump ... it might still be running. So, I hiked out there and sure enough I could hear it through the access cap, but it sounded like it was cavitating. Septic cap was frozen on so I just opened the electrical box and unplugged the pump.

Took off work Monday and after a laborious hour, managed to unscrew the frozen access cap ( about 2ft. diameter ). Look in, and the level was about 1/2. Huh? How could this be cavitating? Plugged the pump back in and could see water blowing out the effluent line weep hole, back into the tank...which accounted for the cavitation sound. The effluent line runs uphill to the mound, so there's a small 1/4" hole to let it back drain when the pump cuts off. Seeing this, the despair hit me as it was likely either the effluent line and/or the mound was froze up. With these weeks of sub-zero weather and little or no insulating snow cover, the septic guy said he's seen frost down to 5 ft in some areas and a lot of homes are suffering this demise.

So, Tuesday the guy came out and tried steaming out the effluent line, but had to quit due to equipment problems. Today, he came back out and pumped the second tank and said there's most likely nothing to do until spring thaw. The newly emptied tank will let ~1000 gallons leave the house until it needs to be pumped again.

So, for conservation, I've decided to reroute the kitchen drains to the basement laundry tub (easy ), and then plug the tub to catch the kitchen water and the wash machine output. Using a portable sump pump I have, we'll have to periodically empty the laundry tub out into the yard with a hose. Then, all we'll be putting down the septic is toilet flushes and showers, for both of which our habits will need to change for a while. I'm thinking with these measures we'll be able to go well over a month before another tank pumping is required.

As for improvements to the mound system: The asshole who installed this system 25 years ago didn't put enough top soil on the mound. In addition, the effluent line is only about 2 ft under. So this spring after thaw, using that nice little Kubota loader/backhoe I bought a year ago, I'm going to dig up the effluent line and replace it with a 3" PCV pipe. Inside that, I'll run the 2" effluent line along with a 300W heat tape and a thermostat back at the septic electrical box. That should keep the effluent line from freezing ... ever again. As for the top soil, I'm probably going to have to get a few loads of dirt/loam and spread another 6" over the entire mound, again using the tractor rather than moving 50 yds of dirt by hand. Don't have that sort of manual labor in me anymore, hence the tractor.

Not sure the dirt alone will keep the mound from freezing in low-snow winters like this, so I'll probably cover the mound with my fall leaves and plastic it down for the winter. Fairly easy to do as I have to haul them off anyway.

All in all, quite the unexpected pain in the ass, but I will prevail in the end.

 

[summerthyme]

It's enough to make you look fondly at the good old days... outhouses were low maintenance!

Summerthyme

 

[Blacknarwhal]

It's enough to make you look fondly at the good old days... outhouses were low maintenance!

Summerthyme

Because going outdoors in subzero weather to use the facilities was a walk in the park.

 

[Bardou]

We're on septic and we drain the washer down to the pasture. Haven't had septic trouble for 25 years. Don't put toilet paper or kichen waste into your septic, those items don't break down very fast. We put 2 envelopes of yeast down the toilet once a month. Also, check your toilets for any silent leaks, they can fill a septic tank up fast. Good luck.

 

[FaithfulSkeptic]

Because going outdoors in subzero weather to use the facilities was a walk in the park.

I don't know about a walk in the park, but I do know that when using outdoor facilities in the cold of winter, all men are truly created equal.

 

[David Nettleton]

Arctic weather and low snow environments create these problems. Been there. Even jetting a line can run up to $600 with a tank pumping. Sounds like you have done all that can be done. Hope for an early spring. If you have 30" cement access caps on your tank could you lower a bucket down there a haul up and dump some liquid? If yes consider the odor for a while in the spring and neighbors reactions. The DNR might not like this.

 

[Wolfcreek Farm]

I don't know about a walk in the park, but I do know that when using outdoor facilities in the cold of winter, all men are truly created equal.

We put a "bidet" attachment (Luxe Bidet Neo 120 ) for our toilet....$35 from Amazon....cuts paper usage way down...and we still have an outhouse on our place too....eliminated (no pun intended) a lot of septic tank problems.

We have water lines running all over the farm with all the greenhouses and buildings...underground......any place they go under a driveway or parking area..I cover the lines with old wooden boards (blue foam boards can be used also)...then dirt on top...frost will not penetrate the barrier. If you want..put hay or straw mulch over the lines to protect them every fall...acts like snow cover. The electric line heat would work..but.. it might be overkill..where the passive non-electric things would work. Our motto here is KISS (keep it simple stupid)!.....that means us...not referring to you..LOL

 

[BH]

We just had to deal with a septic problem. We have a 5 line drainage field. All same grade so all lines should fill together. We had some kind of problem between lines 2 and 3 and the water was not flowing into the last 3 lines. Had pooling/ponding in the yard. We were pumping about twice a year to no avail.

Had county inspector out to check it out (turns out I had worked with the guy at his previous job). He thought that the turn was a problem.

Had septic guys out with backhoe and they dug down to line 3 and it was dry. They put in a pvc bypass from line 2 to line 3 (10 foot ditch) and it seems to have solved the problem. Got out for $375 and it took them 1 hour to fix.

Hope it holds.

The alternative proposed by the inspector was 3 x 65 feet of new drainage field and a distribution box at the tank. That would have cost $4800 and totally trashed the yard.

 

[Inthewoods]

I don't know about a walk in the park, but I do know that when using outdoor facilities in the cold of winter, all men are truly re-created less equal.

Fixed it for you.....

 

[FaithfulSkeptic]

The alternative proposed by the inspector was 3 x 65 feet of new drainage field and a distribution box at the tank. That would have cost $4800 and totally trashed the yard.

Why am I NOT surprised ?

 

[FaithfulSkeptic]

We put a "bidet" attachment (Luxe Bidet Neo 120 ) for our toilet....$35 from Amazon....

We have one of those too. I love it.

WThe electric line heat would work..but.. it might be overkill..where the passive non-electric things would work.L

The problem is, I don't know exactly where the effluent line runs. Do not want to take any chances with it.

 

[Dennis Olson]

Heat tape dies after a few years.

 

[WalknTrot]

Been there, done that. It's even worse if the line that runs from the house to the septic tank freezes. Then you can't even use the tank for a holding tank. So the traditional Minnesotan's lament "It could have been worse" holds true here, too.

As it sits, just be very careful about volume. No laundry, little showering, and when it fills up, have it pumped. You don't say where you are located, but it's a damned long time 'til spring thaw. The year my line froze up, it didn't thaw 'til the first of May.

Around here, they sell big heating mats that you plug in to cover vulnerable lines or the mound itself to keep it from freezing up. Not cheap to run, but if you ever have to go through a freeze-up, worth it. Otherwise, the old fashioned answer is a covering of loose hay or straw in the fall. Also, don't cut the grass short on the mound past about the middle/end of August. The longer grass itself is a bit of an insulation, and also tends to catch and hold any snow that blows around.

 

[Bubble Head]

I am not sure of your geography or the exact construction of your septic system. However you can get large concrete blankets. They are used for fresh pours in the winter months. They do hold the heat and keep the cold out. I have several used ones for my personnel use. You may be able to cover your system with them and generate enough warmth to let it begin a flow. Like I said not at all familiar with what you actually have.

I can certainly sympathize with you since a few Januaries ago I had a baffle plug up on my septic system. Nothing like digging the cap out of the snow and getting your head into a septic tank while below zero wind is blowing. I always pray that does not happen again.

 

[Freeholder]

If you have to dig up and re-do your lines, consider covering them on all four sides with foam board insulation (blue board is what we used in Alaska, but that was a few years ago and there might be something better available now). This was standard procedure for new septic systems in the Interior where we were, and prevented freezing up even in much colder temperatures than anything the northern tier states have been seeing recently.

Your situation (with the mound and pumps) is one reason why I would never, ever buy a house, or buy land to build a house, where a standard system with no pumps won't work.

Kathleen

 

[FaithfulSkeptic]

Heat tape dies after a few years.

which is why you maintain access to each end of the 3" pipe, so you can drag a new one thru it if necessary.

As for burning out in the middle of winter, I'll have some kind of open circuit detect on it. Can probably tie it into the same overflow alarm.

 

[FaithfulSkeptic]

Incidentally, anyone who thinks life was simpler in the "olden days" ... you're wrong.

 

[Jackpine Savage]

That is a bummer, BTDT too. If it's just a line they can usually steam it out, but when the drain field or mound freezes up you are SOL until the thaw. Mounds seem to be more susceptible to freezing. We ended up with a good snow cover here so I am hoping we'll be OK.
A layer of straw in the fall isn't a bad insurance policy.

One thing to monitor closely is for dripping faucets or leaking toilets. Those slow leaks will freeze up the lines in no time. It isn't a bad idea to take a hot shower or run some other hot water once a day.

Our drain field froze here the first year we moved in. The drain field was new and we had no snow cover. Haven't had a problem since and it's been 13 years. But that year I bought a pump and just pumped it out into the field

 

[summerthyme]

Incidentally, anyone who thinks life was simpler in the "olden days" ... you're wrong.

Nope. It WAS "simpler" in many ways. It *wasnt* easier!

But i have been known to tell people, "the simple life... ain't simple".

But it IS much more basic. Our ancestors woukd laugh themselves silly at the idea of needing electricity to dispose of human waste.

Summerthyme

 

[Freeholder]

Nope. It WAS "simpler" in many ways. It *wasnt* easier!

But i have been known to tell people, "the simple life... ain't simple".

But it IS much more basic. Our ancestors woukd laugh themselves silly at the idea of needing electricity to dispose of human waste.

Summerthyme

I don't know...just thinking about it, the average person (not the rich, who could hire work done) needed to have far more actual skills in order to survive from day to day. If we put most moderns back a couple hundred years, they'd have serious trouble surviving even a few days, I suspect. THINGS may be a lot more complex now than they used to be, but I think people themselves, in general, don't need as many actual skills in order to get through a typical day.

Kathleen

 

[bbbuddy]

R value of soil is about R1 per foot. So once inch of foam board rated at R7 equals 7 feet of soil. This is approximate depending on the moisture content of the soil etc.

But it shows how much some foam board over your lines can protect them. Instead of the heat tape, dig some soil up over your lines (since you have the tractor), lay foam board over the line, and backfill the soil. A couple feet of soil should be enough for ground cover to grow.

Now you aren't dependent on electricity and future heat tape failure to keep it from freezing.

 

[summerthyme]

I don't know...just thinking about it, the average person (not the rich, who could hire work done) needed to have far more actual skills in order to survive from day to day. If we put most moderns back a couple hundred years, they'd have serious trouble surviving even a few days, I suspect. THINGS may be a lot more complex now than they used to be, but I think people themselves, in general, don't need as many actual skills in order to get through a typical day.

Kathleen

I agree, Kathleen. But despite that, *back then* it *was* simpler. You didn't go to the store and choose between 17 different brands of peaches... you picked and canned your own. If your tree didn't produce... you went without peaches! Houses didn't have closets... because everyone owned maybe 2 full sets of clothes... one for "good", and one for work. You didn't go to the store and buy new every 6 months to "stay in fashion".

Mostly, it was simpler because the government was MUCH smaller and less intrusive. You didnt need a permit to own a handgun, build a house, or own a dog. Going to the doctor didnt require photo ID and seversl insurance cards. No license needed for your horse and buggy , no required insurance, no "safety" inspection.

If you were stupid enough to abuse drugs or alcohol, you were free to do so... and free to starve or freeze if you were so dysfunctional you couldn't hold a job. And if you were dumb enough to put your outhouse uphill of your well... well, cholera was no fun at all...but anyone with half a brain knew that, and it would have been considered absurd to think the government needed to mandate and licence your choices for placement of said outhouse or well.

I absolutely agree that the more self sufficient you try to live, the more "stuff" (tools, etc) you need... the current "tiny house" movement is only possible if you live near a town with a robust JIT system.

Believe me, I don't see the 1800s lifestyle through any sort of a romantic lens... everyday life required physical, mental and spiritual strength, and almost no one enjoyed anywhere near the leisure time most do today. But today's life is confusing, complex and contradictory... and for all our "stuff" and "conveniences", i don't think peopke are any happier...

Summerthyme

 

[Freeholder]

I agree, Kathleen. But despite that, *back then* it *was* simpler. You didn't go to the store and choose between 17 different brands of peaches... you picked and canned your own. If your tree didn't produce... you went without peaches! Houses didn't have closets... because everyone owned maybe 2 full sets of clothes... one for "good", and one for work. You didn't go to the store and buy new every 6 months to "stay in fashion".

Mostly, it was simpler because the government was MUCH smaller and less intrusive. You didnt need a permit to own a handgun, build a house, or own a dog. Going to the doctor didnt require photo ID and seversl insurance cards. No license needed for your horse and buggy , no required insurance, no "safety" inspection.

If you were stupid enough to abuse drugs or alcohol, you were free to do so... and free to starve or freeze if you were so dysfunctional you couldn't hold a job. And if you were dumb enough to put your outhouse uphill of your well... well, cholera was no fun at all...but anyone with half a brain knew that, and it would have been considered absurd to think the government needed to mandate and licence your choices for placement of said outhouse or well.

I absolutely agree that the more self sufficient you try to live, the more "stuff" (tools, etc) you need... the current "tiny house" movement is only possible if you live near a town with a robust JIT system.

Believe me, I don't see the 1800s lifestyle through any sort of a romantic lens... everyday life required physical, mental and spiritual strength, and almost no one enjoyed anywhere near the leisure time most do today. But today's life is confusing, complex and contradictory... and for all our "stuff" and "conveniences", i don't think peopke are any happier...

Summerthyme

I agree with everything you said. I don't think people now are any happier, either -- which makes another good point. Whether we are happy or not, for the most part, is a choice, an attitude, rather than something determined by circumstances. Certainly things can happen which make us feel happy, but it's attitude that helps us to feel happy (or, better, to feel joy, which comes from God) no matter what our circumstances. I don't *need* modern conveniences in order to feel happy, for example (though I certainly appreciate them while I have them! And I was very happy to get running water again after several weeks without it!).

Kathleen

 

[FaithfulSkeptic]

R value of soil is about R1 per foot. So once inch of foam board rated at R7 equals 7 feet of soil. This is approximate depending on the moisture content of the soil etc.

But it shows how much some foam board over your lines can protect them. Instead of the heat tape, dig some soil up over your lines (since you have the tractor), lay foam board over the line, and backfill the soil. A couple feet of soil should be enough for ground cover to grow.

Now you aren't dependent on electricity and future heat tape failure to keep it from freezing.

Good point, but my concern is the weight of the tractor driving over the line repeatedly will likely crush the foam board where it's not down that far. It will be an unknown.

Now, I guess I could solve that by spanning something a bit more solid over the insulation. Question: if I go this route, how wide should the insulation span the pipe if the pipe is 2 ft down? or 1 ft. down ?

 

[FaithfulSkeptic]

Nope. It WAS "simpler" in many ways. It *wasnt* easier!

But i have been known to tell people, "the simple life... ain't simple".

But it IS much more basic. Our ancestors woukd laugh themselves silly at the idea of needing electricity to dispose of human waste.

Summerthyme

I think there's very few of our ancestors that wouldn't take a flush toilet and plumbing over wash tubs and and a privy.

 

[Wolfcreek Farm]

Good point, but my concern is the weight of the tractor driving over the line repeatedly will likely crush the foam board where it's not down that far. It will be an unknown.

Now, I guess I could solve that by spanning something a bit more solid over the insulation. Question: if I go this route, how wide should the insulation span the pipe if the pipe is 2 ft down? or 1 ft. down ?

I'd go with 1' width over the line and hopefully 3 to 4' down if under a driveway.....we have 20+ ton loads plus going over the lines with no problems.....been doing this for 40 to 50 years.....first used old wood boards like the old timers used....now like foam board and then covered with dirt.

 

[FaithfulSkeptic]

I'd go with 1' width over the line and hopefully 3 to 4' down if under a driveway.....we have 20+ ton loads plus going over the lines with no problems.....been doing this for 40 to 50 years.....first used old wood boards like the old timers used....now like foam board and then covered with dirt.

Unfortunately, the line is down no more than about 2' ... maybe 1' in some areas.

One clue, however, is the blackwater blew out of the top of the mound near the end where the effluent line enters. Not that the line can be ignored, but said boil thru strongly suggests the mound itself is froze up. The boil thru hole probably froze up, then the pump just held the line full and it then froze up too.

Thus, the mound itself is going to require just as much attention. Thinking about it, adding a few more inches of top soil probably isn't going to do squat. The solution is going to be covering it with hay or leaves in the fall to provide insulation.

 

[Scrapman]

Water softener salt pellets in th distribution box. Not many but enough. Or in a vent hole at least 20 ft downstream of digester. This is commonly done around here.

 

[Ravekid]

We had our issue with our pump a couple of months ago. Thankfully temps were above normal and made it easy for the people to fix. Basically the main line detached from the pipe that leads to the sewage line outside the tank. Guys said all the connections felt loose, almost just hand tightened. I believe they even used some sort of blue thread glue or lube, so hopefully that was just a fluke. Luckily our pump didn't go out. The $1,500 total for the repair sucked ($350 for septic pump and clean-out and $1,150 for the repair). The company gets good reviews, but I know for a fact service companies see our house, make small talk, find out we have no kids, and the bill just goes up from there. If we have issues in the future I'll shop around for sure. I'm now worried about sub-zero temps, but we only had one full day of very cold temps followed by very above normal temps.

Not sure if we'll ever move, but if we do, I'm defiantly going to find a house that is either gravity sewer, or septic if that is the only option. Unfortunately one member here said that a newer housing additions in their area are forcing everyone to purchase and maintain their own lift station.

 

[FaithfulSkeptic]

It's THAWED !!!

2-1/2 month of dragging a hose into the back yard every stinkin' day and pumping the laundry tub out the hose, short military showers, 3 pees or a poop rule, and one tank pump from the septic service two weeks ago for $280.

Checked it today by plugging in the pump in the 2nd tank and it drained it. It's FINALLY over. I think I'm going to take a 20 minute shower.

 

[petedtom]

It's THAWED !!!

2-1/2 month of dragging a hose into the back yard every stinkin' day and pumping the laundry tub out the hose, short military showers, 3 pees or a poop rule, and one tank pump from the septic service two weeks ago for $280.

Checked it today by plugging in the pump in the 2nd tank and it drained it. It's FINALLY over. I think I'm going to take a 20 minute shower.

LOL
Well deserved.
Boy what an pain in the patootie

 

[Blacknarwhal]

It's THAWED !!!

2-1/2 month of dragging a hose into the back yard every stinkin' day and pumping the laundry tub out the hose, short military showers, 3 pees or a poop rule, and one tank pump from the septic service two weeks ago for $280.

Checked it today by plugging in the pump in the 2nd tank and it drained it. It's FINALLY over. I think I'm going to take a 20 minute shower.

Fantastic news! Glad to hear it.

Been having to put in an entirely new well out here--old one was about 70 years old so the sediment finally got to it--and it's a devil and a half. It's already claimed one pump and I'm running on a backup right now. Though this would be one for the value of saving....

 

[FaithfulSkeptic]

Shallow well ?

 

[Bardou]

Shallow well ?

Why not permanently run the washer out into the lawn or an area away from your septic and leech fields? We run ours off into the pasture, no need filling up the septic tank with unnecessary water. We've always practiced the mellow yellow, brown flush it down, no toilet paper goes into the toilet. Will save you a big septic pump and problems in the future. DH puts an enzyme down the toilet the first of every month it's called "Green Gobbler."

Guaranteed or your money back! We get it at Home Depot. Been using it for 3 years now--so far so good! Glad you get to take a looooong shower!

 

[Blacknarwhal]

Shallow well ?

As shallow as required by law. I ran into a LOT of that nonsense with this project.

 

[FaithfulSkeptic]

As shallow as required by law. I ran into a LOT of that nonsense with this project.

I have a shallow well. It's the original from when the house was built in 72, and it still works fine. Original pump too, the quality of which you simply can't find anymore. If the well ever plugs, I'll find a way to blow it out or just punch another shallow well myself. It's all sand and gravel here so should be very easy to do.

ETA: You gotta watch out for "services" in cahoots with other services ... and the county. When we were first looking at buying the house back in '93, some jackass was trying to convince me we needed a new well. When I asked why, he said "because it's too close to where the proposed new septic system is going." I just about lost it. I said I would say where the new septic system is going, for which there was another adequate place on the other side of the house far enough from the existing well ... and also on the same side the sewage line came out. I never dug into it, but that kinda nonsense reeks of a septic service that's buddies with a well digging outfit.

 

[Blacknarwhal]

I have a shallow well. It's the original from when the house was built in 72, and it still works fine. Original pump too, the quality of which you simply can't find anymore. If the well ever plugs, I'll find a way to blow it out or just punch another shallow well myself. It's all sand and gravel here so should be very easy to do.

ETA: You gotta watch out for "services" in cahoots with other services ... and the county. When we were first looking at buying the house back in '93, some jackass was trying to convince me we needed a new well. When I asked why, he said "because it's too close to where the proposed new septic system is going." I just about lost it. I said I would say where the new septic system is going, for which there was another adequate place on the other side of the house far enough from the existing well ... and also on the same side the sewage line came out. I never dug into it, but that kinda nonsense reeks of a septic service that's buddies with a well digging outfit.

Almost all sand underneath the soil out here.

The worst of it is I actually had a second well in place not far from the first. It was an "agricultural well." But because it wasn't properly registered when it was first set up back in the 1960s, I couldn't just use it. I was forbidden by law from using it. So needless to say I was HOT.

 

[FaithfulSkeptic]

Almost all sand underneath the soil out here.

The worst of it is I actually had a second well in place not far from the first. It was an "agricultural well." But because it wasn't properly registered when it was first set up back in the 1960s, I couldn't just use it. I was forbidden by law from using it. So needless to say I was HOT.

Maybe your mistake was telling anyone about it.

Here's the thing. The regulations and laws on this kind of stuff show little difference than the way they were with the guilds and who they had in their pockets.

 

[Blacknarwhal]

Maybe your mistake was telling anyone about it.

Here's the thing. The regulations and laws on this kind of stuff show little difference than the way they were with the guilds and who they had in their pockets.

No, sadly; it's right there in the middle of the yard. And trying to connect it to the house pretty much requires professionals.

 

[FaithfulSkeptic]

No, sadly; it's right there in the middle of the yard. And trying to connect it to the house pretty much requires professionals.

I see. If I ever had to redo mine, it would have to go out in the yard a ways. Having a backhoe, however, simplifies that process. If you lived closer ...

Good luck. Shop around. Hope you can resolve it at a minimum $$$