INSANITY Wind farms - Ponder this

[LoupGarou]

A few tidbits to consider.

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2021/01/27/bright-green-impossibilities/

To summarize: to get the world to zero emissions by 2050, our options are to build, commission, and bring on-line either:

• One 2.1 gigawatt (GW, 109 watts) nuclear power plant each and every day until 2050, OR

• 4000 two-megawatt (MW, 106 watts) wind turbines each and every day until 2050 plus a 2.1 GW nuclear power plant each and every day until 2050, assuming there’s not one turbine failure for any reason, OR

• 100 square miles (250 square kilometres) of solar panels each and every day until 2050 plus a 2.1 GW nuclear power plant each and every day until 2050, assuming not one of the panels fails or is destroyed by hail or wind.

I sincerely hope that everyone can see that any of those alternatives are not just impossible. They are pie-in-the-sky, flying unicorns, bull-goose looney impossible. Not possible physically. Not possible financially. Not possible politically.

Read those numbers carefully, then read them again.

You missed "their" version of the solution: Reduce the population by 15/16ths after taking all of the land for themselves...

 

[LoupGarou]

I recall during researching citizen opposition to local wind farms, windmills idled by still air consume power to keep blades turning ever so slowly, to protect bearings. They need incoming grid power for that purpose, reducing any net output levels

I kind of figured. Ok, so now just have a power outage in the area when the doldrums occur... When the power comes back on, or better yet, the wind starts going like mad.....

Dancin' Daisies across the prairies....

 

[Tristan]

The solar farms recycle the panels every 4 years, at least some in New Mexico. There a guy here sells used ones 4 years old for Cheap. We have purchased from him. $60 for 270watt panels....

So they aren't much greener than the wind farms....

I think the reason they're doing that is the efficiency is going up, and govt. subsidies continue - so they can expand their 'production' without having to buy more land... Perhaps there's a special short depreciation schedule on those installations, as well.

I think. Haven't heard definitively.

 

[Elza]

When Germany scrapped their nuclear plants, they wanted to supplement their needs from France (which relies on nuclear.)

Just more "not in my back yard" BS.

 

[Macgyver]

I recall during researching citizen opposition to local wind farms, windmills idled by still air consume power to keep blades turning ever so slowly, to protect bearings. They need incoming grid power for that purpose, reducing any net output levels

Seen plenty of them dead stopped with the blades furled to not catch the wind.

 

[custom2006]

Probably due to a poorly designed product and I would guess well within the warranty from the manufacture.

I'm far from a greene, but wind turbines can work in places where its always windy. Not so much for the idiots that think building them everywhere for the hell of it.

Actually, no wind is needed for one to spin. They can spin themselves and generate 50% - 60% of the energy that they are designed to generate if spinning via the wind.

 

[custom2006]

Sweden, England, and Italy have voted to go back to Nuclear.
Germany commissioned 27 new coal plants and tore down a wind farm to make a new coal mine.
Denmark just killed 24 offshore wind projects.

If that is fact, a lot of .gov are coming to their senses. I have followed the green nonsense for years.
When Germany scrapped their nuclear plants, they wanted to supplement their needs from France (which relies on nuclear.)

.... and the largest wind mill project on earth kicks off in January in Scottsdale Arizona (area) for a 4.5 year 1,008 windmill project.

 

[DryCreek]

I have been wondering about the times when there is no wind for a while and whether the armatures are heavy enough to bend over that time. I know the monster sized ones in the nuclear power plants around here need to be kept moving with a small pony motor (even if they have to power that motor with an onsite diesel generator) to keep the shaft from bending if it sits still.

I could just picture the out of balance, bent to heck armature up 400+ feet in the air causing the spinning genny to turn into a whirling dervish and showing off an "exploded parts view" in the middle of the field. Or, just vibrate the rest of the nacelle and tower to death...

The use of turning gear is not for the generator end. It's for the turbine end. Steam sealing on the glands (to keep air out of the condenser, maintain vacuum) will cause uneven heating of the turbine shaft. When that happens the turbine rotor will bow, and then the blading strikes the nozzles (diaphragm plate) and if the bow is severe enough, it will progress past "rubbing" and cause extensive damage. After the vacuum has been broken and the shaft cools, it is fine for it to sit that way for months. Of course, the cost of purchased replacement power pushes you into shorter outages, so the turbine typically won't be idle for more than three weeks.

The very same effect will be seen on the turbine driven feed pumps. We have small turning gear motors to rotate them until the shaft cools down and there is no chance of rotor bow to occur.

 

[WFK]

Actually, no wind is needed for one to spin. They can spin themselves and generate 50% - 60% of the energy that they are designed to generate if spinning via the wind.

Now we are in wonderland: energy from propaganda! Say it again, maybe it will be true one day.

 

[Dobbin]

Not so much for the idiots that think building them everywhere for the hell of it.

But but - what about the "grant?" There is Government Cheese to be cut loose from the taxpayer by building beyond need (or return of equity.)

The dam failure over in Hinsdale, NH in the late 1990s resulted in a hue and cry for the State of Cow Hampshire to inspect and "remediate" abandoned dam sites statewide.

So far locally, Exeter NH has had its town dam removed, Greenland, NH similarly, Durham had a dam removed just south of UNH - all because there was no need for the power, nor in many cases even the equipment to utilize it. And any dam remains a question mark safety wise - until it is removed.

Newmarket NH has now had all the original linen mills converted to condominium housing. Owner says they're "very nice" apartment style living on some buildings 5 floors high. Associated with the former mill is a sizable water power installation that used to power the mills. The mill was quite modern until its failure in the 1980s (Foreign Competition, of course) and could generate power to back feed to the grid - and did so for a short time in the late 1980s.

But alas - if one can't get a "decent price" for generated power - one goes somewhere else. Which is where the mill management company went. Currently the dam and power generation equipment exists "in situ" - but not used. Meanwhile the mill management company HAS had remediation done to the dam - but as of yet not removal.

There is a whole industry in the state devoted to removal of dams, documenting the "advantage" of a "free river", and justifying to the State Senate the wisdom of this course of action "for the children's safety."

A free river is a nice concept - until in the spring freshet comes and floods your basement.

Meanwhile, that fossil fuel and even nuclear option dwindle down... And even the "remediated" (removed) dams still need annual attention to repair "historical" damage which USED to be associated with the spring run-off - until the dams were built with their side benefit of "controlling" the river. Every year in Greenland, Owner says they "mess with the rocks" to put the flow channel back to functionality.

Government cheese - how to take command of free enterprise and turn it to the financial benefit of your friends.

Dobbin

 

[WFK]

Actually, no wind is needed for one to spin. They can spin themselves and generate 50% - 60% of the energy that they are designed to generate if spinning via the wind.

OK, one more time:
Fascinating statement!
To prove that you are a person with at least minimal understanding of technical concepts, explain the following:

Why are wind generators equipped with blades if the generators work without being driven by wind?
They could just put them on the ground at less cost and easier service? (which would make up for the reduced efficiency.)
You certainly lost me (and maybe a few others) with your claim.
Worse, you are AI and grabbed the wrong technology.

 

[Dennis Olson]

Now we are in wonderland: energy from propaganda! Say it again, maybe it will be true one day.

What was the saying the people of the USSR used to say?

”We pretend to work and they pretend to pay us.”

 

[Bubble Head]

Wind farms have been a known waste for many years. A wind turbine design similar to a jet engine produces better results and easier maintenance. I saw a few at the Rawhide Power plant but they said efficiency was still an issue.

 

[Profit of Doom]

Actually, no wind is needed for one to spin. They can spin themselves and generate 50% - 60% of the energy that they are designed to generate if spinning via the wind.

I’d like to get a load of this for the garden.
That only works on a flat earth, and around here, that straight jacket is already occupied.

 

[colonel holman]

Actually, no wind is needed for one to spin. They can spin themselves and generate 50% - 60% of the energy that they are designed to generate if spinning via the wind.

So, what is being input to make the blades spin “all by themselves”? Or are you being sarcastic?
You cannot “create” energy, only gather it to convert it to a useful form.

Wind to electricity; burning fuel to electricity; light energy to electricity; nuke fission to electricity; gravity-assisted water flow to electricity.

Petro, wood, coal, wind, sunlight, nuke reaction, water flow all to turn a turbine to generate electricity.

 

[colonel holman]

And yet, no mention of nuke power, as if equated to a nuke bomb.
The amount of waste is tiny, tiny, tiny compared to the others, with much being recycled to breed other fuel rods. Meanwhile we have all those nuke accidents? Most navy ships have their own reactor. The recently decommissioned Enterprise had SIX of them, for example. Chernobyl was a monument to soviet dysfunction. Fukushima was mis-designed to not tolerate a tsunami. TMI was olde school design. EU had great grid reliability from its many nukes, now shut down to be ‘green’ and rely on hostile Russians for NG.

The issue is SO fix-able. But .gov pussies wet their pants when you mention advances in nuke power that would solve the problem. Making it more mainstream would accelerated improvements and safety further

 

[colonel holman]

I kind of figured. Ok, so now just have a power outage in the area when the doldrums occur... When the power comes back on, or better yet, the wind starts going like mad.....

Dancin' Daisies across the prairies....

I assume each farm has its own on-demand diesel or LNG generators parted next to the towers to keep blades turning to avoid damage. The ONLY reason wind farms exist to for select corps to suck on govt grants. Many go idle because govt grants pay for construction but not for subsequent repairs. They have disassemble decommissioning contracts with local communities in exchange for zoning permission. But all they do is declare bankruptcy (each tower has its own LLC) and walk away

 

[Profit of Doom]

I assume each farm has its own on-demand diesel or LNG generators parted next to the towers to keep blades turning to avoid damage. The ONLY reason wind farms exist to for select corps to suck on govt grants. Many go idle because govt grants pay for construction but not for subsequent repairs. They have disassemble decommissioning contracts with local communities in exchange for zoning permission. But all they do is declare bankruptcy (each tower has its own LLC) and walk away

I drive thru the back hills of the Altamont wind farms. There are no backup gennies to turn the blades. They are either turning at design speed for power output, slowly if little wind, or stopped with no useful wind. I don’t know if those are locked down, or just not enough wind at the moment.

 

[Czechsix]

Has nothing to do with efficiency of the energy system. Has everything to do with government waste and scam activity.

But the "right people" are making billions off of it, so onwards!

 

[tiredude]

I have seen videos of the windmill blades being buried in landfills because there no practical way to recycle them.

I don’t think landfills will take them

 

[von Koehler]

I don’t think landfills will take them

I think they are specifically dug to handle these large blades, not ordinary landfills.

 

[Bumpkin]

About that.
I reside in central PA. What's happening here, is those solar farms have been buying up farmers land. Say the farmer has about 500 acres, and is deciding to downsize, so he sells 200 acres to the solar energy folks, for the average fair market price per acre in that area.
No problem YET.
Then comes construction, roads, erosion control ect. Well turns out, on the average, the Construction company have been going over their allotted land purchases, on the average, 100, to 150 acres, on top of what they originally purchased.
Now here's the kicker, the solar outfit apparently has the lawyers, and Gubmint backing to pull an eminent domain on the land WITHOUT paying the farmer, so by the time the Farm has paid taxes, bills ect, what was a good deal, has been screwing the farmer AGAIN.
Yes they have the option to fight them in court, but any funds they had, well are already gone. And BTW, it seems that those power companies TARGET, Amish and Mennonite farmers, who by nature are not famous for fighting back, especially against corrupt corporations, lawyers, and politicians.

The same thing is happening in southeast Virginia. Who knows what kind of crap is being leached off those panels, into the groundwater, on formerly arable farmland? I think this is just another way to keep people from getting food. The whole thing is absolute bullshit. Renewable energy, my ass!!!! This is just another way to poison the country.

 

[mistaken1]

A lot of farmers out here want to convert at least some land into solar farms. It's a pretty profitable use of smaller chunks of land, but the local governments barely understand electricity, let alone solar.

Not sure where you live but where I live we average five hours a day of usable (from a power generating standpoint) sunlight.
So an entire solar farm that is is productive, on average five hours out of every twenty-four does not sound very efficient or very green to me.

I am all for people putting them on their homes to subsidize their electrical usage ... although it has been my experience that without subsidies to offset the initial cost the payback period is rather long. To be fair I have not calculated the ROI on a solar system in a number of years, if prices have come down the payback will be much better.

 

[mistaken1]

It was a good plan - on paper...

As savurselvs pointed out it is a very good plan for using the power of government to transfer wealth from one group of people to another.

I watched a lawyer, or was it a project manger, either way they testified that without the subsidies from the government they would never have built any wind farms.

It is the subsidies that makes green energy go 'round.

 

[Dobbin]

I have been wondering about the times when there is no wind for a while and whether the armatures are heavy enough to bend over that time. I know the monster sized ones in the nuclear power plants around here need to be kept moving with a small pony motor (even if they have to power that motor with an onsite diesel generator) to keep the shaft from bending if it sits still.

Owner has said that when the steam turbine-generators are stationary for maintenance (they are opened up and inspected at least annually) that once re-assembled, the "heart in one's mouth moment" is not the first time steam is put to the turbine, but rather the first rotation going on "turning gear" (pony motor)

While stationary, the turbine spindle "sags" between supports.

If the shaft can go through one complete revolution, it will probably keep going.

Once going, the shaft is run on turning gear for about a week before they put steam to the machine. There are "eccentricity" instruments which tell if the rotor is out of straightness before steam is put on. The usual experience is that "straightness" gets "better and better" as the shaft is turned. Owner says "gravity is a force."

And putting steam to the turbine "changes" the eccentricity - Owner says the top of the turbine casing heats first and that changes everything.

Owner says he has seen one turbine that didn't rotate on the first turn - somebody left a tool inside the machine. The tools are normally numbered, and controlled with a sign-out system - but something unaccounted for dropped out of someone's pocket. I think Owner said it was a flexible pocket ruler - the clearances are that tight.

It added about a week to that outage - think $. About a million dollars a day lost revenue.

Dobbin

 

[mistaken1]

I kind of figured. Ok, so now just have a power outage in the area when the doldrums occur... When the power comes back on, or better yet, the wind starts going like mad.....

Dancin' Daisies across the prairies....

I would hate to have a home in throwing range ....

 

[West]

As savurselvs pointed out it is a very good plan for using the power of government to transfer wealth from one group of people to another.

I watched a lawyer, or was it a project manger, either way they testified that without the subsidies from the government they would never have built any wind farms.

It is the subsidies that makes green energy go 'round.

Right just add...

Subsidies of all kinds, hurt private enterprise and new for profit business start ups. And makes for less employment in the private sectors.

 

[dstraito]

A few tidbits to consider.

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2021/01/27/bright-green-impossibilities/

To summarize: to get the world to zero emissions by 2050, our options are to build, commission, and bring on-line either:

• One 2.1 gigawatt (GW, 109 watts) nuclear power plant each and every day until 2050, OR

• 4000 two-megawatt (MW, 106 watts) wind turbines each and every day until 2050 plus a 2.1 GW nuclear power plant each and every day until 2050, assuming there’s not one turbine failure for any reason, OR

• 100 square miles (250 square kilometres) of solar panels each and every day until 2050 plus a 2.1 GW nuclear power plant each and every day until 2050, assuming not one of the panels fails or is destroyed by hail or wind.

I sincerely hope that everyone can see that any of those alternatives are not just impossible. They are pie-in-the-sky, flying unicorns, bull-goose looney impossible. Not possible physically. Not possible financially. Not possible politically.

Read those numbers carefully, then read them again.

I think the numbers will be a lot smaller when they only have to support 500,000,000 people and many of those left probably will not have access.

 

[Dobbin]

Right just add...

Subsidies of all kinds, hurt private enterprise and new for profit business start ups. And makes for less employment in the private sectors.

Subsidies exchange the decision of marketplace success, for the decision of your "betters."

Trouble is - they're not always right (consider EVs, 1-1/2 gallon toilets, MTBE in the gas) AND it's not their risk-reward that is considered.

They can literally NOT GIVE A SH*T how it comes out - and probably don't. If it "sound good" and gets them re-elected by popular acclaim (or even as a convenient excuse to explain an election fraud outcome) then its good enough for subsidy.

Meanwhile, the innovator, the entrepreneur, the risk-taker gets left behind - probably "cancelled." Certainly there is no capital available to fund innovation since taxes to cover the subsidies swallow it all up.

Methinks of Trump's 2020 election advertisement "The Best is Yet To Come."

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_nYPm9-Y_M
RT 3:41

"The Best is Yet to Come." Well, it don't come if there is not innovation, risk/reward, and the human spirit to guide it.

As Biden Admin aptly proves.

Dobbin

 

[SSTemplar]

I have been wondering about the times when there is no wind for a while and whether the armatures are heavy enough to bend over that time. I know the monster sized ones in the nuclear power plants around here need to be kept moving with a small pony motor (even if they have to power that motor with an onsite diesel generator) to keep the shaft from bending if it sits still.

I could just picture the out of balance, bent to heck armature up 400+ feet in the air causing the spinning genny to turn into a whirling dervish and showing off an "exploded parts view" in the middle of the field. Or, just vibrate the rest of the nacelle and tower to death...

Yes. I have actually had to spend 8 hours spinning the generators by man power at CPSES. That means sticking an 4 foot pole in a hole and pulling on it. Take pole out of hole repeat.

 

[Luddite]

Hydrogen is the next moneypit.

I hope it works. Down deep I know it won't. Jmo

They'll just throw "good money after bad".

 

[mikeabn]

You could finish POing the libs and suggest that these units will run much longer if they're lubricated with whale oil.......

Whale oil from unborn gay whales in transition.

 

[West]

Whale oil from unborn gay whales in transition.

That identify as a endangered delta guppies!

?

 

[sinjap]

For many years I worked at a couple different big power companies in the midwest dispatching these wind farms. We had hundreds of them that we monitored constantly and were at the mercy of mother nature. When the wind was blowing, we'd have to back down super cheap coal plants because green is supposedly better. Not cheaper, just subsidized by the govt. But if the wind was too strong we'd have to turn them off (curtail in industry speak). And they were always having problems. Probably 20-30% of the windmills were down needing maintenance at any given time. They were indeed a pain in the you know what for us dispatchers. And don't get me started on the flocks of birds that were sliced up during migration or how they iced up in winter and big chunks of ice would fall on cows and piss off farmers. :-D

 

[West]

Love the hands on reports gentlemen.

Thank you!

 

[Profit of Doom]

I have been wondering about the times when there is no wind for a while and whether the armatures are heavy enough to bend over that time. I know the monster sized ones in the nuclear power plants around here need to be kept moving with a small pony motor (even if they have to power that motor with an onsite diesel generator) to keep the shaft from bending if it sits still.

I could just picture the out of balance, bent to heck armature up 400+ feet in the air causing the spinning genny to turn into a whirling dervish and showing off an "exploded parts view" in the middle of the field. Or, just vibrate the rest of the nacelle and tower to death...

Talk dirty to me….

 

[Profit of Doom]

Interesting notion. The folks own a chunk of land that's been tenant-farmed by an old family friend for decades. We've wondered about solar ourselves, since it's just 20 acres.

Consider the effects of the noise on your health and sanity. Needs serious investigation.
Oops. Solar is kinda quiet.

 

[Profit of Doom]

Actually, no wind is needed for one to spin. They can spin themselves and generate 50% - 60% of the energy that they are designed to generate if spinning via the wind.

Right!

 

[Select]

They work perfectly well in every location...

as long as you are the one getting kickbacks and subsidies.


They are a money laundering scheme, nothing else.

100%

 

[one4freedom]

Owner has said that when the steam turbine-generators are stationary for maintenance (they are opened up and inspected at least annually) that once re-assembled, the "heart in one's mouth moment" is not the first time steam is put to the turbine, but rather the first rotation going on "turning gear" (pony motor)

While stationary, the turbine spindle "sags" between supports.

If the shaft can go through one complete revolution, it will probably keep going.

Once going, the shaft is run on turning gear for about a week before they put steam to the machine. There are "eccentricity" instruments which tell if the rotor is out of straightness before steam is put on. The usual experience is that "straightness" gets "better and better" as the shaft is turned. Owner says "gravity is a force."

And putting steam to the turbine "changes" the eccentricity - Owner says the top of the turbine casing heats first and that changes everything.

Owner says he has seen one turbine that didn't rotate on the first turn - somebody left a tool inside the machine. The tools are normally numbered, and controlled with a sign-out system - but something unaccounted for dropped out of someone's pocket. I think Owner said it was a flexible pocket ruler - the clearances are that tight.

It added about a week to that outage - think $. About a million dollars a day lost revenue.

Dobbin

Did they have to work in the nude after that or in skin tight spandex?