EDUC When Unpaid Student Loans Mean You Can No Longer Work

MinnesotaSmith

Membership Revoked
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/18/business/student-loans-licenses.html

When Unpaid Student Loan Bills Mean You Can No Longer Work

Twenty states suspend people’s professional or driver’s licenses if they fall behind on loan payments, according to records obtained by The New York Times.

By JESSICA SILVER, STACY COWLEY and NATALIE KITROEFF.
NOV. 18, 2017

Fall behind on your student loan payments, lose your job.

Few people realize that the loans they take out to pay for their education could eventually derail their careers. But in 19 states, government agencies can seize state-issued professional licenses from residents who default on their educational debts. Another state, South Dakota, suspends driver’s licenses, making it nearly impossible for people to get to work.

As debt levels rise, creditors are taking increasingly tough actions to chase people who fall behind on student loans. Going after professional licenses stands out as especially punitive.

Firefighters, nurses, teachers, lawyers, massage therapists, barbers, psychologists and real estate brokers have all had their credentials suspended or revoked.

Determining the number of people who have lost their licenses is impossible because many state agencies and licensing boards don’t track the information. Public records requests by The New York Times identified at least 8,700 cases in which licenses were taken away or put at risk of suspension in recent years, although that tally almost certainly understates the true number.

Shannon Otto, who lives in Nashville, can pinpoint the moment that she realized she wanted to be a nurse. She was 16, shadowing her aunt who worked in an emergency room. She gaped as a doctor used a hand crank to drill a hole into a patient’s skull. She wanted to be part of the action.

It took years of school and thousands of dollars of loans, but she eventually landed her dream job, in Tennessee, a state facing a shortage of nurses.

Then, after working for more than a decade, she started having epileptic seizures. They arrived without warning, in terrifying gusts. She couldn’t care for herself, let alone anyone else. Unable to work, she defaulted on her student loans.

Where Your License Can Be Seized
Twenty states around the country can seize professional, driver’s and other licenses from residents who default on their student debt.

licenses-300.png


Iowa
Any state-issued license, including a driver’s license, can be revoked. The Iowa College Student Aid Commission said it has not used that power in the last five years.

South Dakota
The state can revoke driver’s, hunting and fishing licenses, as well as camping and park permits. As of October, 1,550 people with educational debt had their licenses blocked.

Kentucky
The state’s Higher Education Assistance Authority said it does not track how many default notices it sends to licensing agencies. Records from licensing boards show that 308 nurses and 223 teachers have had their licenses blocked in recent years.

Ms. Otto eventually got her seizures under control, and prepared to go back to work and resume payments on her debt. But Tennessee’s Board of Nursing suspended her license after she defaulted. To get the license back, she said, she would have to pay more than $1,500. She couldn’t.

“I absolutely loved my job, and it seems unbelievable that I can’t do it anymore,” Ms. Otto said.

With student debt levels soaring — the loans are now the largest source of household debt outside of mortgages — so are defaults. Lenders have always pursued delinquent borrowers: by filing lawsuits, garnishing their wages, putting liens on their property and seizing tax refunds. Blocking licenses is a more aggressive weapon, and states are using it on behalf of themselves and the federal government.

Proponents of the little-known state licensing laws say they are in taxpayers’ interest. Many student loans are backed by guarantees by the state or federal government, which foot the bills if borrowers default. Faced with losing their licenses, the reasoning goes, debtors will find the money.

But critics from both parties say the laws shove some borrowers off a financial cliff.

Tennessee is one of the most aggressive states at revoking licenses, the records show. From 2012 to 2017, officials reported more than 5,400 people to professional licensing agencies. Many — nobody knows how many — lost their licenses. Some, like Ms. Otto, lost their careers.

“It’s an attention-getter,” said Peter Abernathy, chief aid and compliance officer for the Tennessee Student Assistance Corporation, a state-run commission that is responsible for enforcing the law. “They made a promise to the federal government that they would repay these funds. This is the last resort to get them back into payment.”

In Louisiana, the nursing board notified 87 nurses last year that their student loans were in default and that their licenses would not be renewed until they became current on their payments.

Eighty-four paid their debts. The three who did not are now unable to work in the field, according to a report published by the nursing board.

“It’s like shooting yourself in the foot, to take away the only way for these people to get back on track,” said Daniel Zolnikov, a Republican state representative in Montana.

People who don’t pay their loans back are punished “with credit scores dropping, being traced by collection agencies, just having liens,” he said. “The free market has a solution to this already. What is the state doing with this hammer?”

In 2015, Mr. Zolnikov co-sponsored a bill with Representative Moffie Funk, a Democrat, that stopped Montana from revoking licenses for people with unpaid student debt — a rare instance of bipartisanship.

The government’s interest in compelling student borrowers to pay back their debts has its roots in a policy adopted more than 50 years ago.

In 1965, President Lyndon B. Johnson signed the Higher Education Act, which created financial aid programs for college-bound students. To entice banks to make student loans, the government offered them insurance: If a borrower defaulted, it would step in and pick up the tab. The federal government relied on a network of state agencies to administer the program and pursue delinquent borrowers. (Since 2010, the federal government has directly funded all student loans, instead of relying on banks.)

By the late 1980s, the government’s losses climbed past $1 billion a year, and state agencies started experimenting with aggressive collection tactics. Some states garnished wages. Others put liens on borrowers’ cars and houses. Texas and Illinois stopped renewing professional licenses of those with unresolved debts.

The federal Department of Education urged other states to act similarly. “Deny professional licenses to defaulters until they take steps to repayment,” the department urged in 1990.

Two years ago, South Dakota ordered officials to withhold various licenses from people who owe the state money. Nearly 1,000 residents are barred from holding driver’s licenses because of debts owed to state universities, and 1,500 people are prohibited from getting hunting, fishing and camping permits.

“It’s been quite successful,” said Nathan Sanderson, the director of policy and operations for Gov. Dennis Daugaard. The state’s debt collection center — which pursues various debts, including overdue taxes and fines — has brought in $3.3 million since it opened last year. Much of that has flowed back to strapped towns and counties.

But Jeff Barth, a commissioner in South Dakota’s Minnehaha County, said that the laws were shortsighted and that it was “better to have people gainfully employed.”

In a state with little public transit, people who lose their driver’s licenses often can’t get to work.

“I don’t like people skipping out on their debts,” Mr. Barth said, “but the state is taking a pound of flesh.”

Mr. Sanderson countered that people did not have to pay off their debt to regain their licenses — entering into a payment plan was enough.

But those payment plans can be beyond some borrowers’ means.

Tabitha McArdle earned $48,000 when she started out as a teacher in Houston. A single mother, she couldn’t keep up with her monthly $800 student loan payments. In March, the Texas Education Agency put her on a list of 390 teachers whose certifications cannot be renewed until they make steady payments. She now has no license.

Randi Weingarten, president of the American Federation of Teachers, who has worked to overturn these laws, called them “tantamount to modern-day debtors’ prison.”

States differ in their rules and enforcement mechanisms. Some, like Tennessee, carefully track how many borrowers are affected, but others do not keep even informal tallies.

In Kentucky, the Higher Education Assistance Authority is responsible for notifying licensing boards when borrowers default. The agency has no master list of how many people it has reported, according to Melissa F. Justice, a lawyer for the agency.

But when the agency sends out default notifications, licensing boards take action. A public records request to the state’s nursing board revealed that the licenses of at least 308 nurses in Kentucky had been revoked or flagged for review.

In some states, the laws are unused. Hawaii has a broad statute, enacted in 2002, that allows it to suspend vocational licenses if the borrower defaults on a student loan. But the state’s licensing board has never done so, said William Nhieu, a spokesman for Hawaii’s Department of Commerce and Consumer Affairs, because no state or federal student loan agencies have given it the names of delinquent borrowers.

Officials from Alaska, Iowa, Massachusetts and Washington also said their laws were not being used. Oklahoma and New Jersey eliminated or defanged their laws last year, with bipartisan support.

But in places where the laws remain active, they haunt people struggling to pay back loans.

Debra Curry, a nurse in Georgia, fell behind on her student loan payments when she took a decade off from work to raise her six children. In 2015, after two years back on the job, she received a letter saying that her nursing license would be suspended unless she contacted the state to set up a payment plan.

Ms. Curry, 58, responded to the notice immediately, but state officials terminated her license anyway — a mistake, she was told. It took a week to get it reinstated.

“It was traumatic,” Ms. Curry said. She now pays about $1,500 each month to her creditors, nearly half her paycheck. She said she worried that her debt would again threaten her ability to work.

“I really do want to pay the loans back,” she said. “How do you think I’m going to be able to pay it back if I don’t have a job?”
 

West

Senior
Same with child and spousal support. Don't or can't pay..loose your licenses. Plus your credit rating will get screwed. And I think that's in every state.
 

Melodi

Disaster Cat
This seems really foolish to me; I mean someone falls behind because they get sick, they get better but then are not allowed to work because they have no license; so the bank/government gets NOTHING.

Not only does the government get nothing, if she is left destitute then she will at least be getting food stamps and possibly other aid as well; which is penny wise/pounds foolish.

This IS a debtor's prison; at least in some of the European Countries with government-backed loans are only paid on WHEN the person is employed (and I have no sympathy for US banks that sold these loans to anyone breathing knowing the government would "take care of it" when there were defaults). Revoking professional licenses may look good on paper but many people who have had a real-life crisis (I'm not talking a vacation in Tahiti) simply can't "make a payment" in the thousands of dollars.

Whatever happened to good old-fashioned wage garnishing? That can be very difficult too, but at least it means the person is working and hopefully getting by and it means the loan gets at least some payment.

Unless this situation is changed (along with the entire way higher education is financed in the US) more and more students (and their families) will vote with their feet and simply refuse to sign on to the system.

It has surprised me that things have managed to keep going so long; but that was largely because the former system encouraged banks to give out ever bigger loans (knowing they would just sell them off and they were government backed) and the Universities demanding more and more money; while convincing more and more "professions" that a degree was needed.

Very soon there is likely to be a severe shortage of nurses, teachers, social workers and a potential decline of police and fighter fighters in States that require a college degree before signing on.

That is because students (or their families) will simply refuse to take out loans to pay outrageous prices for an "education" for a "job" that doesn't pay enough to every pay back the loans (or not for many decades).

The only people in college will be the wealthy and/or those going into professions where the loans can be tolerated like medicine or engineering; even those are getting second thoughts, one of my husband's American friends in medical school here has 240,000 in US student debt and he isn't quite finished yet, that is NOT that unusual.

At some point, States will either have to reconsider alternative routes to learn some professions and/or bring back institutions like teaching and nursing colleges that just teach one or two things; are relatively cheap and contract with certain urban and rural areas to "sponsor" poorer students in exchange for legal contracts that mandate they work in those areas for about five years (think Northern Exposure on a larger scale and for teachers and nurses).
 

BenIan

Veteran Member
Never seen this happen for student loans in Louisiana. Seen it often for child support and state taxes.
 

WalknTrot

Veteran Member
Working as a nurse for a decade and didn't get her student loans paid off?

Sorry. Read the fine print before you sign and know that student loans are some of the most strict repayment penalties you'll ever consider taking on. If something can't be written off in bankruptcy, it's something to stay away from.

Even if folks think it shouldn't (I'm not that much of a bleeding heart myself) Stupid Should Hurt.
 

Nowski

Let's Go Brandon!
The high cost of higher education, needs to be reigned in.

Also, why so many years to get an education?
Cut out the bullshitz courses, and cut the 4 year
technical degrees down to two years.

If you then want the bullshitz courses,
you can take them later.

The entire post high school educational system
in the FUSA, is royally screwed up, and needs
completely torn down.

Please be safe everyone, and please arm up.

Regards to all deplorables.
Nowski
 

MinnesotaSmith

Membership Revoked
To sum it all up...

1) Yes, failure to pay (voluntarily or not) child support/alimony (or, "chilamony") commonly results in revocations in all 50 states. This ranges from driver's licenses to all professional licenses to even fishing/hunting licenses. Eligibility for food stamps, etc., have also been known to be taken away for such people, even if 100% and permanently disabled. (Men are in such defaults 15-20x as often as women, and per case are much more likely to be so sanctioned.)

2) So far, only 20 states do the same for student loan repayment delinquencies.

3) An easy prediction can be made that this will be extended to even more states.

4) So, moving to a state where this is not an issue for student loan defaults may be only a temporary as well as partial solution, even if the debtor arranges to have no licenses from the previous state.

5) I forsee the current trend of students and parents increasingly refusing to incur student loan debt for poorly-renumerative majors/higher-priced relative to status schools becoming public policy. I thus expect gov't-funded loans to eventually only go up to state school tuition levels, even if a student attends a private college. Further, watch for moves towards only STEM majors (and skilled trades) getting loans made available.
 
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BoPeep

Inactive
This, from the OP, is interesting:


"In Louisiana, the nursing board notified 87 nurses last year that their student loans were in default and that their licenses would not be renewed until they became current on their payments.

"Eighty-four paid their debts."

So in 84/87 cases cited....this worked! Amazing.
 

BH

. . . .
The high cost of higher education, needs to be reigned in.

Also, why so many years to get an education?
Cut out the bullshitz courses, and cut the 4 year
technical degrees down to two years.

If you then want the bullshitz courses,
you can take them later.

The entire post high school educational system
in the FUSA, is royally screwed up, and needs
completely torn down.

Please be safe everyone, and please arm up.

Regards to all deplorables.
Nowski

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/11/15/hbs...leges-will-be-bankrupt-in-10-to-15-years.html


cnbc.com
Half of US colleges will be bankrupt in 10 to 15 years
Abigail Hess
4-5 minutes

There are over 4,000 colleges and universities in the United States, but Harvard Business School professor Clayton Christensen says that half are bound for bankruptcy in the next few decades.

Christensen is known for coining the theory of disruptive innovation in his 1997 book, "The Innovator's Dilemma." Since then, he has applied his theory of disruption to a wide range of industries, including education.

In his recent book, "The Innovative University," Christensen and co-author Henry Eyring analyze the future of traditional universities, and conclude that online education will become a more cost-effective way for students to receive an education, effectively undermining the business models of traditional institutions and running them out of business.
 

MinnesotaSmith

Membership Revoked
This, from the OP, is interesting:


"In Louisiana, the nursing board notified 87 nurses last year that their student loans were in default and that their licenses would not be renewed until they became current on their payments.

"Eighty-four paid their debts."

So in 84/87 cases cited....this worked! Amazing.

Or, their parents/husbands paid their student loans; more likely IMO.
 

Faroe

Un-spun
The gov. should not be responsible for backing the banks. It is up to the bank to decide if the loan is a good risk or not, and utilize the usual legal recourse. Driver's licenses and professional licenses have no reason to be tied to a loan issued by a bank. By this logic, you should loose your driver's license if you can't pay your credit card bills, your mortgage, or your hospital bill. Makes no sense.

These banks issued the loans knowing they were crappy risks, but they lobbied the gov. to be the strong guy to bully people on their behalf. Bull shit. These special and inappropriate privileges are becoming an ever widening net, and an ever tightening noose.
 

Bardou

Veteran Member
Working as a nurse for a decade and didn't get her student loans paid off?

Sorry. Read the fine print before you sign and know that student loans are some of the most strict repayment penalties you'll ever consider taking on. If something can't be written off in bankruptcy, it's something to stay away from.

Even if folks think it shouldn't (I'm not that much of a bleeding heart myself) Stupid Should Hurt.

She couldnt work due to seizures, so she shouldn't care about paying the taxpayer back. But I agree, she worked for 10 years and should of had that debt paid. If I don't make a couple of car payments, they'll come get my transportation that gets me to work. It's called personal responsibility which is lacking nowadays. I've been economically responsible my whole life, did without vacations many times and put the money towards financial obligations. I can't garner much sympathy for dead beats.
 

Blacknarwhal

Let's Go Brandon!
The high cost of higher education, needs to be reigned in.

Also, why so many years to get an education?
Cut out the bullshitz courses, and cut the 4 year
technical degrees down to two years.

If you then want the bullshitz courses,
you can take them later.

The entire post high school educational system
in the FUSA, is royally screwed up, and needs
completely torn down.

Please be safe everyone, and please arm up.

Regards to all deplorables.
Nowski

Criminy, yes.

Even back in 1998, when I started, they told us all to EXPECT it to take five years to conclude a degree. I did it in four thanks to a combination of summer courses and a rudimentary dual-enrollment program--now a much larger operation--but even I knew there was a problem. The sheer load of "general education" credits required everyone's degree to be, effectively, almost 50 percent unrelated to the degree path chosen. Granted, it wasn't all bad--I managed to rediscover a fondness for writing thanks to a creative writing course that got me working to this day--but still; half your degree doesn't even relate to what you were studying, and that's a serious problem.
 

Ravekid

Veteran Member
5) I forsee the current trend of students and parents increasingly refusing to incur student loan debt for poorly-renumerative majors/higher-priced relative to status schools becoming public policy. I thus expect gov't-funded loans to eventually only go up to state school tuition levels, even if a student attends a private college. Further, watch for moves towards only STEM majors (and skilled trades) getting loans made available.

I've already heard some of my algebra 18-19 year old classmates talking about leaving the university and going to the "community college" we have in our state if they don't get into to the big name school nursing program. Price per credit hour is around $150 cheaper than the second tier universities in our state and about $200 per hour cheaper than the top tiers. These are also the state entities as well. Private universities charge huge tuition rates.

What sucks is that I fully believe that young people need to be able to leave the nest when they hit 18. For many, that was usually done via leaving for college and/or the military. It sucks we have made it so costly for young people who aren't going into the military to actually leave their parents homes.

This, from the OP, is interesting:

"In Louisiana, the nursing board notified 87 nurses last year that their student loans were in default and that their licenses would not be renewed until they became current on their payments.

"Eighty-four paid their debts."

So in 84/87 cases cited....this worked! Amazing.

The vast majority of people of those who were in college till about the mid-2000s didn't have to deal with sky high tuition rates that we see today. They still had some debt, but given what many jobs can pay most who were in STEM fields should be able to pay their debts. I know people who might have had $50K in loans for grad degrees, and say they had $20K left over from undergrad. Yet they were making $80K-$100K/year in the medical field. Yet somehow it took them fifteen years to pay off their loans? I've seen late 30s to early 40 somethings post on Facebook about finally paying off their loans. These are people I know had some help with some of their college costs. The simple fact is that many people had loans at a very low rate and decided that stuff like fancy homes, fancy cars, fancy phones, fancy vacations, etc. were more important than paying off their student loans.
 

kyrsyan

Has No Life - Lives on TB
The thing is - why default? I make extremely low wages. We qualify as well below poverty level. I applied for an income contingent repayment plan. There are 2 available. My monthly expected payment is $0. My loans are considered in good standing.
You may not be able to declare bankruptcy on student loans but there are options. Actually, if you can prove hardship, you are supposed to be able to declare them in a bankruptcy but the judges have no guidelines. The end result is that success in bankruptcy is exceptionally erratic.
 

Dozdoats

On TB every waking moment
What sucks is that I fully believe that young people need to be able to leave the nest when they hit 18.

Extending educational requirements is a deliberate ploy in reducing the size of the available workforce. There aren't enough jobs to go around ... and this has been one approach to the 'gateway' control issue for some time.
 

Baloo

Veteran Member
There are so many problems with education today that will never be fixed as they are there on purpose. But IMHO the key issues are:

1. Govt needs to get out of college business (and all schools). This includes forcing admission of special classes of people and giving money to colleges and students.
2. Too many kids are going to college; There are many blue collar jobs that need people and real college (not what we have now) is not for everyone.
3. A degree means next to nothing now compared to what it used to mean due to most being for underwater basket weaving type majors that are irrelevant for jobs, or even if for a real subject like STEM it has been so watered down its almost useless as everyone has to get an A now. I got an electrical engineering degree almost 30 years ago and I can't even recognize my alma mater's program today-it is a f---ing joke (I had 3 non-engineering electives and now its more than half; plus they removed all the hard classes and gutted the ones left to make it easy).
 

Baloo

Veteran Member
While I HATE the Congress' tax bill; I do like one provision-taxing graduate students tuition waivers given in exchange for work/teaching.

Liberals are upset. It should have been taxed years ago-it is money for work (teaching). Heck, I got work aid from college and I had to pay tax on it. Its income for work.
 

Racing22

Crew Chief
The gov. should not be responsible for backing the banks. It is up to the bank to decide if the loan is a good risk or not, and utilize the usual legal recourse. Driver's licenses and professional licenses have no reason to be tied to a loan issued by a bank. By this logic, you should loose your driver's license if you can't pay your credit card bills, your mortgage, or your hospital bill. Makes no sense.

Actually it makes a lot of sense. Many of these loans are backed/guaranteed by the federal government, so the government is on the hook. So taking your driver's license or professional license is appropriate.

Plus, all these deadbeats have an effect on everyone else in the country who needs to borrow money. The banks work their default costs into everyone elses loans.
 

Racing22

Crew Chief
The thing is - why default?

Because they can and they were never taught personal responsibility by their parents.

I read an article not too long ago that said 25% of white college grads are in default and 50% of black college kids were in default.

Defaulting is a personal choice. Remember too, defaults are totally deciding NOT to pay as agreed. These defaults don't include all the students who are 30, 60, 90 days or more who are late on payments. There are millions in that pool too!!
 

marsh

On TB every waking moment
The root of the problem is the administrative overhead, including dozens of "diversity" personnel, some making high salaries.

Observe that the millennials have high student loans, are not buying houses (and notoriously living in their childhood home), are not having babies, but are in thrall/indentured to the bank/government for large payments for a long period of time. Observe the disenfranchisement of younger people - preferring socialism to our economic system and the outright hatred expressed for our country.

Does anyone else think there is an intentional tie between this policy and pressures of the fourth turning to tear the system down and replace it with either socialism or the NWO plantation?
 

packyderms_wife

Neither here nor there.
The high cost of higher education, needs to be reigned in.

If they did that there'd be no football or basketball teams which the universities swear that this is what draws students into the schools in the first place! Ummm no, I transferred here because of the chemistry program at the time. Some of the administrators/idiots running the universities are just that, idiots.
 
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packyderms_wife

Neither here nor there.
The root of the problem is the administrative overhead, including dozens of "diversity" personnel, some making high salaries.

Or are paying the football coach some 7M per year, the basketball coaches some 3M and 4M respectively per year, plus all of the perks for the mouth breathing knuckle dragging jocks to get them to come here in the first place.
 
Criminy, yes.

Even back in 1998, when I started, they told us all to EXPECT it to take five years to conclude a degree. I did it in four thanks to a combination of summer courses and a rudimentary dual-enrollment program--now a much larger operation--but even I knew there was a problem. The sheer load of "general education" credits required everyone's degree to be, effectively, almost 50 percent unrelated to the degree path chosen. Granted, it wasn't all bad--I managed to rediscover a fondness for writing thanks to a creative writing course that got me working to this day--but still; half your degree doesn't even relate to what you were studying, and that's a serious problem.

You bring up an interesting point of discussion, Blacknarwhal. Back in the early-mid 1970's, when I was transiting from high-school to college, we all knew that we would have to take some number of what we called "fluff" courses, that had nothing to do with our pending engineering, business, medical core studies - it was "the path," and THAT, was THAT.

As you correctly point out, because of "English-type" grammar/writing courses, many of us tech folks learned how to organize our thoughts, and properly write an article, or, a paper; how to write effective business communications that would be directly involved in our later career pursuits.

Others learned basic business math/finance skills that became an asset to them as their careers advanced, despite being neither math nor finances majors, academically.

Through my "fluff" courses, I discovered an appreciation for history and philosophy - that proved to be valuable when managing large operations of people and logistics - the engineering/tech part of my talents were already set as a child, and needed little encouragement to flourish - it was, perhaps, OTHER undiscovered latent talents/likes, as taught in the "fluff" courses, which afforded us the opportunity to explore beyond what we knew. And, to some degree, these "fluff" courses helped to shape us into BETTER workers, managers, employees, in the long run.

Secondly, the cost of today's university education is simply ridiculous. In our day, and depending upon the major, many were able to work lower-paying summer jobs between semesters, and earn a significant amount of what was going to be necessary to pay for the pending next two semesters. I knew of several hard-working nurse-students that were paying their entire way through college - no loans - and graduated with good grade-point averages within the four-year model graduation cycle. Was not easy, and the partying was "measured" carefully - but they disciplined themselves to the task, and succeeded.

With the exception of the medical majors, student loans were virtually unheard of, in this time era - ~circa 1974-1984, or there about - two acquaintances went the pre-med/med route, becoming doctors - and incurred what we thought of as a BIG student loan in those days, but are actually comparable in amount to many of today's student loan debt amounts for NON MEDICAL DEGREES (read: history majors and such).

Typically, students worked a small job during the school year, worked full-time in the summer between semesters, and had parents paying out for vehicles/transportation, incidentals and books, insurances, and part of the degree costs. For those students that did not work, I knew of two sets of parents that took out second mortgages on their houses - payment on which were completed no more than ten years after the student graduation date.

With the exception of the medical majors, NOBODY was woefully in debt - all debt and payments were carefully planned and payment/payback were understood prior to engaging in college and the costs, thereof.

Still visit yearly with college friends and acquaintances - male and female - and some of their parents who are/were still alive. This topic of college costs has been repeatedly discussed between all of us, since nearly everyone has had college aged children in "the system" in the last 10-20-ish years. All of us are shaking our heads in disbelief at the mess that represents today's college costs versus ROI of chosen major, as well as how student loans are pushed onto unsophisticated college students who really do not understand what they are signing up for - ignorant - and targeted as "a mark" by the predatory college loan business.

NONE of this would be going on, in a society that valued its youth correctly, and employed proper minding of cultural morals and virtues, and intentions.

"We have met the enemy, and he is US!" (h/t to the late Walt Kelly)


intothegoodnight
 
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The root of the problem is the administrative overhead, including dozens of "diversity" personnel, some making high salaries.

Observe that the millennials have high student loans, are not buying houses (and notoriously living in their childhood home), are not having babies, but are in thrall/indentured to the bank/government for large payments for a long period of time. Observe the disenfranchisement of younger people - preferring socialism to our economic system and the outright hatred expressed for our country.

Does anyone else think there is an intentional tie between this policy and pressures of the fourth turning to tear the system down and replace it with either socialism or the NWO plantation?

Good observations, Marsh.


intothegoodnight
 

bassgirl

Veteran Member
Another issue with paying back based on income is if the defaulter is now married they go off the TOTAL house income. That means they include the spouses income in their ability to repay.

You marry someone who is in default and they consider your income to repay the new spouses debt. That in my opinion sucks. You would not be expected to repay someone elses child support, nor their alimony. And there is no way around it unless you do married filing separate and even then I am not sure you could avoid it.

You can file an injured spouse form but they still keep most of the tax return. For example, spouse pays 200$ in federal tax and I pay 8k$ in federal tax. I show I have 1600$ coming back. If you do not file injured spouse they keep it all. You do file injured spouse you may get 600$ of the 1600 back. Now the spouse only paid 200$ in taxes yet I am forced to give up 1k$ in return to pay on their default student loan.

The above scenario is real and applies to someone who went to school ten years before you ever met them. Let that sink in.

People better make sure you know your future spouses credit report.
 

Racing22

Crew Chief
Criminy, yes.

Even back in 1998, when I started, they told us all to EXPECT it to take five years to conclude a degree.

The first thing we told our kids even before they decided which college to apply to, was this:

College is a BUSINESS that exists to extract as much money as possible from you, and to keep you there as long as possible.

If you know that going in, you can make smart financial decisions regarding your education.

It's the clueless ones that signed up for all types of loans for the "College Experience", with no thoughts to the future, that are having the issues in the OP.
 

Melodi

Disaster Cat
In some States (California is one) they CAN go after a spouse for child support payments; for a child, that person had nothing to do with. The result of that law combined with similar threats of garnishment on both student loans and other debts resulted in a lot of the weddings I attended or officiated at in the early 1990's not having legal paperwork.

In some cases, even the in-laws didn't realize that the happy couple was doing everything but the wedding license because the new spouse wasn't about to risk having their wages garnered over a debt that wasn't theirs. Child support laws were already morphing to target men, employed or not and who were "deemed" to owe money they didn't have to pay back the State Welfare office for the time they were unemployed.

I mention that because we are not just talking deadbeats here but people who had debts for real reasons like illness or a layoff; that again they couldn't get rid of by bankruptcy court because that isn't allowed for student loans or for child support.

Fast forward 20 years, the situation is even worse and a lot of younger people (especially men) are just not bothering to get married; I have had women friends who made a decent income who also opted for the "non-legal" marriage route (or just live together).

People or couples in debt for whatever reason, tend to delay or avoid having children...it is a feedback loop...
 

medic38572

TB Fanatic
It is not just student loans in TN, child support, student loans, all gets axed till it's caught up. Drivers license, professional licenses poof bye bye. Except the lawyers on child support, since their professional license is regulated by the feds is my understanding. If they are going to hold common citizens hostage, I think business licenses should also be held on child support and student loans.
 

LightEcho

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Student loans inflate college costs. Eliminate student loans and 2 things happen: school costs come down & schools cut excess crap programs- like diversity training.
 

kyrsyan

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Because they can and they were never taught personal responsibility by their parents.

I read an article not too long ago that said 25% of white college grads are in default and 50% of black college kids were in default.

Defaulting is a personal choice. Remember too, defaults are totally deciding NOT to pay as agreed. These defaults don't include all the students who are 30, 60, 90 days or more who are late on payments. There are millions in that pool too!!

I accidentally ended up in default on one set of loans from my early days. I hadn't realized that they were being handled through a separate company than the more recent set and didn't give them my new address when I moved. I did everything I had to and ended up qualifying to roll them back in with my other student loans.
My Dad defaulted on a set and over 20 years later they found him and tried to take our house. They almost managed to do it. I will do what is necessary to keep my loans in good standing, even if I don't own property.

Another issue with paying back based on income is if the defaulter is now married they go off the TOTAL house income. That means they include the spouses income in their ability to repay.

You marry someone who is in default and they consider your income to repay the new spouses debt. That in my opinion sucks. You would not be expected to repay someone elses child support, nor their alimony. And there is no way around it unless you do married filing separate and even then I am not sure you could avoid it.

You can file an injured spouse form but they still keep most of the tax return. For example, spouse pays 200$ in federal tax and I pay 8k$ in federal tax. I show I have 1600$ coming back. If you do not file injured spouse they keep it all. You do file injured spouse you may get 600$ of the 1600 back. Now the spouse only paid 200$ in taxes yet I am forced to give up 1k$ in return to pay on their default student loan.

The above scenario is real and applies to someone who went to school ten years before you ever met them. Let that sink in.

People better make sure you know your future spouses credit report.

This is why, if a miracle occurs and someone appears, I will only marry them in private. I will not marry them in the eyes of the govt until my student loans are taken care of, and theirs if need be. This way of calculating is not acceptable to me. A new person in my life is not responsible for debt I incurred when I was young and stupid. If anyone would be, it would be the ex who also lived off of that income when we were married.

As for child support, based on my recent experience, no they still don't count the new spouse's income, only the original parent. Now, I could see them ignoring that if the parent defaults and there are arrears. The reason for that would be that the income that should have gone to the child instead went to the current household, so the entire household would be responsible for repayment. I've seen child support lowered for loss of job/income if the party that was paying did what they were supposed to and filed with the court. The only exception I've seen to that is if the paying parent had a decrease in income because they were fired for cause or they quit. (not layoff or position disappearing). The court has little sympathy when you lost your job due to your own screw ups. (in my experience)
 

BoPeep

Inactive
We've heard recently of colleges making it imperative for freshmen to live on campus....even if they have parents who live locally. So they aren't allowing telecommuting...and they are now charging room and board that a student could've avoided. We've heard from friends that the U of AL makes all freshmen pay for their meals on campus, a full set of meals, even if they live off campus with mom and dad. It would be affordable-ish to just pay the $9k/yr tuition, but even if students are living in town, they have the expenses of meals on campus....which adds several thousands of $$. I suppose they require this so that students aren't living only on ramen....but I don't care for that requirement. Students wanting to save some $ here and there cannot because of such rules.
 

homepark

Resist
I started college back in the early 70's. My tuition cost was $1000 per academic year. By the time I finished my Master's program, it was still pretty low compared to today. However, departments were starting to offer watered down degrees to keep growing enrollment. Faculty salaries were relatively modest by standards then. I managed to get through with a low amount in student loans. Although I had no parents to fund my college adventure, I worked summers and had GI Bill, as well as some state veteran's assistance. When I look at the cost of college now, I don't know how folks make it now. (Apparently with a ton of debt). I paid my student loan back over ten years(as I recall at $35 a month). So while the payment was low, even for the late 70's, I consider myself fortunate.

I have never worked in the field I prepared for in academia, even with an M.A. I did technical recruiting and human services for about 10 years. I eventually went back to my military technical training in the mid 80's. I could see the coming merging of electronics, programming and communications, and prepared for that. I got updated training and certified in related fields as necessary. I parlayed my college work as very discliplined scholarly work, which it was (Greek and Latin). I worked 25 years in computing, communications, and networking and got well paid for that as well as getting and maintaining high level security clearances (again, back to my military background).

So, the key I see is flexibility in education, training and location. I would not advise youngsters to go to college unless it leads to employment, and the costs are kept modest. I think technical and trade training still have a good payout if you don't mind getting your hands dirty. Even as a techno-geek, I pulled my share of network cable, hoisted servers in and out of racks, closets, and computer rooms. I re-wired high brass office tangles of cables to get them to look neat. I have poured water out of computers in a hangar where the fire supression was activated, and set their innards in the sun to dry out. I have dealt with the most miserable of customers yelling "You gots to fix my hot button" on their civil service workstation that was last worked on several contracts ago. It has been quite the ride.

The liftetime of appreciated employment by a single employer train has left the station long ago. You need to get and maintain the skills needed to stay competitive at all steps of the employment cycle. I also think you need to be prepared to go where the work is, or do the trade-offs to stay put.

I don't know if career counselors in high school or at colleges talk to students about where they are going with their degree/education. I certainly wasn't. Of course at that age you know it all, as I am sure I thought I did. I was hindered by merely adapting to what I did not want, especially after I got back from my war. However, as that was a hinderence to me, we all have our issues to deal with.
 

rlm1966

Veteran Member
This is stupid in my opinion, just like locking up people for back child support or taxes. Seems to me a better route would be wage garnishment and/or requiring that they use their skills at some government agency for x number of hours per week and work of the debt while lowering expenses to the taxpayer. It just seems stupid to remove their means of earning funds to repay the debt and expect that said debt will be paid, just as it is stupid to have the taxpayers pay the cost of housing deadbeats in jail until they pay. At least make an attempt to have them repay the debt with labor and taxpayer savings rather than adding more to taxpayer bills.
 

Racing22

Crew Chief
This is stupid in my opinion, just like locking up people for back child support or taxes. At least make an attempt to have them repay the debt with labor and taxpayer savings rather than adding more to taxpayer bills.

You need to go re-read the OP. Taking away their licenses is a LAST DITCH effort after all another means were tried. I'm sure these people had received multiple notices about missed and late payments that they ignored. Then, as the article stated, many were offered to make a different payment schedule, which they ignored. There's no doubt these defaulters had MANY opportunities to correct or rework their debt, but decided to ignore them all. Pulling their licenses is the LAST step to try and collect.

Here's another point, many of these "defaulters" are professionals, doctors, nurses, lawyers, etc. Do you really want someone providing healthcare or professional services to you who doesn't take personal responsibility for a written promise that they made to others?
 
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