ENVR "We Own the Water" Letter

Around these parts the ranchers and maybe ourselves have received a letter in the mail claiming that the government owns all the water. A rancher we know went to an attorney. My husband began educating him that it was not that simple but you have to begin slowly because the blasted conservation agency has done a fabulous job drawing in all the farmers. So much so that for you Jericho fans...the Dept of Interior came and it looked just like the scene at Stanley's house on President Tomarchio's whistle-stop tour, down to the last detail. What he said was worse that have flashbacks of the TV show. He basically said if you want to continue to ranch you have to do it out way, we own everything but we will let you ranch during your life. Then all the white hats (about 200) bob up and down in agreement. Well now they are just learning what that means. I feel so sorry for them. When they come for our water they are going to have a whale of a time getting it.

Also for every federal dollar your state, county, etc... takes for any reason there is a basic contract known as SF 424 A & B which any entity taking federal money has to sign. In the fine print of this contract it states that they have to implement the Clean Water Act, Clean Air Act, Scenic Wild Rivers Act, and a bunch of Executive Orders. States or counties have to show proof quarterly that they are implementing these items of they must return the money they took, fat chance, even though it was a pitiful small amount. They also have to sign it for each thing like National Animal ID, highways, medical, etc...

In the trenches of liberty,
Celeste
 

jed turtle

a brother in the Lord
Around these parts the ranchers and maybe ourselves have received a letter in the mail claiming that the government owns all the water. A rancher we know went to an attorney. My husband began educating him that it was not that simple but you have to begin slowly because the blasted conservation agency has done a fabulous job drawing in all the farmers. So much so that for you Jericho fans...the Dept of Interior came and it looked just like the scene at Stanley's house on President Tomarchio's whistle-stop tour, down to the last detail. What he said was worse that have flashbacks of the TV show. He basically said if you want to continue to ranch you have to do it out way, we own everything but we will let you ranch during your life. Then all the white hats (about 200) bob up and down in agreement. Well now they are just learning what that means. I feel so sorry for them. When they come for our water they are going to have a whale of a time getting it.

Also for every federal dollar your state, county, etc... takes for any reason there is a basic contract known as SF 424 A & B which any entity taking federal money has to sign. In the fine print of this contract it states that they have to implement the Clean Water Act, Clean Air Act, Scenic Wild Rivers Act, and a bunch of Executive Orders. States or counties have to show proof quarterly that they are implementing these items of they must return the money they took, fat chance, even though it was a pitiful small amount. They also have to sign it for each thing like National Animal ID, highways, medical, etc...

In the trenches of liberty,
Celeste

valuable info. thanks.
the Communist-in-Charge is pushing all of us to swallow the last plank of the Communist Manifesto that hasn't yet been completely assimilated into the American mentality: Abolition of Private Property.
 

Shep

Contributing Member
Hey Celeste, what do you know about this Ag survey/census? Some of us folks out here are getting their 2nd one that states we need to respond in 10 days....personally, I'd rather pay the $100 fine. Thanks,

Shep
 
The requirement is that you have to RESPOND. It does not say how you have to respond. I created a cover letter that says that due to my religion I cannot participate and I cite the Scriptures forbidding participation in any census other than as dictated by God. That gets you out of the fine and you have done your duty. It works for the federal census too although I have a whole packet of hoops for those people, they leave shaking in their boots, while I come away with censusing all their private information. I love it!!!!

Take the cover letter, cut off any bar codes that are on it because they are tracking devices, I did this even with the federal census, cut it to shreds right in front of them, and return the unanswered census to them. Well, officially in your cover letter you can say how many people live there, but that is it.

If you want I can post my cover letter. I have never received one afterwards ;-)

Celeste
 

Troke

On TB every waking moment
I got news. In some places, all the water is owned, and even if you own the land, you don't own the water coming across it.

I did this even with the federal census, cut it to shreds right in front of them, and return the unanswered census to them. Well, officially in your cover letter you can say how many people live there, but that is it.

Wonderful. I work on family tree stuff all the time. And to think how much better off I would be if all the Census gave was the head of the house and number of people. I would not have to waste time digging through all that stuff like when and where they were born, how long they lived in the local area, when they became a citizen, what their profession was, the names of all the kids, the hired girls name (located some Great Aunts that way) and so on. Sure would save me a lot of time. .
 
Troke,

Most people are paying taxes on the water falling on the property, no kidding. I took a class with a water management guy. I had heard about it but thought it was only in the east. But lo and behold I looked on my taxes and $50 smackers for rain falling on my property (also can be labeled as water runoff). They need someone to manage urban water ya know.

Sorry about the census shredding for genealogical purposes. I use the old Census's also, even wrote a history book (2500 pages), they were wonderful. But we live in a day and age where they are collecting way to much and what they do with it is worse. Fortunately, with all the other ways they collect peoples information there is a plethora of venues to secure the information you want. Hey, starting next month they are going to post non-compliant persons on the internet so if your family has any 'conspiratorial' ways you can look em up, some might even surprise you.

Celeste
 

Shep

Contributing Member
Oh Celeste...Please let me see your cover letter! I will so send one in!!! Your's is the best answer I've gotten on this issue!

THANK YOU!

Shep
 
Biblical Response: http://www.nonaiswa.org/?p=7809


Dirt on the Census and Survey: http://www.nonaiswa.org/?p=7861
Citizen Response: http://www.nonaiswa.org/?p=7815
Biblical Response to Census and Surveys: The Pestilence of Census and Surveys


Here is a call for the endurance and the faith of the saints.

At the foundations of this world G-d established His Word. He brought life onto this earth and it is by His hand it shall be taken. For G-d’s good pleasure alone did he take a census of His people.

The Shepherd alone cares for his family and herds.

John 10:12

He that is a hireling, and not a shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, beholdeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth, and the wolf snatcheth them, and scattereth them.

[USDA] Insert the Agency of your choice doing the surveying or Census

You are not the G-d or shepherd of G-d’s people and their property. Our lives are not ours but His. For G-d’s people to partake in census is to incur pestilence from the Almighty G-d.

We are shepherds and we refuse to allow asset predators to snatch, scatter and destroy our families and herds.

1 Chronicles

21 Then Satan stood against Israel and incited David to number Israel. 2 So David said to Joab and the commanders of the army, “Go, number Israel, from Beersheba to Dan, and bring me a report, that I may know their number.” 3 But Joab said, “May the LORD add to his people a hundred times as many as they are! Are they not, my lord the king, all of them my lord’s servants? Why then should my lord require this? Why should it be a cause of guilt for Israel?” 4 But the king’s word prevailed against Joab. So Joab departed and went throughout all Israel and came back to Jerusalem. 5 And Joab gave the sum of the numbering of the people to David. In all Israel there were 1,100,000 men who drew the sword, and in Judah 470,000 who drew the sword. 6 But he did not include Levi and Benjamin in the numbering, for the king’s command was abhorrent to Joab.

7 But God was displeased with this thing, and he struck Israel. 8 And David said to God, “I have sinned greatly in that I have done this thing. But now, please take away the iniquity of your servant, for I have acted very foolishly.” 9 And the LORD spoke to Gad, David’s seer, saying, 10 “Go and say to David, ‘Thus says the LORD, Three things I offer you; choose one of them, that I may do it to you.’ ” 11 So Gad came to David and said to him, “Thus says the LORD, ‘Choose what you will:

Three years of famine,
Three months of devastation by your foes while the sword of your enemies overtakes you,
Three days of the sword of the LORD,
Pestilence on the land, with the angel of the LORD destroying throughout all the territory of Israel.’

Now decide what answer I shall return to him who sent me.” 13 Then David said to Gad, “I am in great distress. Let me fall into the hand of the LORD, for his mercy is very great, but do not let me fall into the hand of man.”

I hereby decline to be numbered

In sound mind and body and as a responsible individual I respectfully decline your invitation for voluntary or mandatory participation in this survey or census. I am exercising my Constitutional God given right of religious freedom and as per mandate in Scripture refusing to be numbered in any census or survey that has not been ordained by God, Maker of Heaven and Earth. As you can see the consequences above are a serious matter and I do not desire the judgment mentioned above to fall upon myself, family, friends, or yourselves.

Sign your name

Date


Or you can choose the Citizen Response:

Citizen Response to Census or Survey [of Agriculture]


[Date] Insert

[Agency] Insert Agency who contacted you

[Agency Address] Insert Agency Address

[Insert your name]


[Insert your address]

[Address the Agency] Dear United States Department of Agriculture,

In this day of privacy theft I am sure that you can understand that a citizen needs to be pro-active in ensuring their data is safe and secure. For this reason insert your name family policy clearly states that the enclosed Public Servant Questionnaire must be fully filled out by each person who will see the [insert what name of census or survey you are responding to] and by each person who will have access either to the hard copy, database, data aggregate information, or any and all persons manning GPS units.

* Please ensure that all sections of the Public Servant Questionnaire are filled out by all persons seeing the hardcopy, data, or database so that I may promptly fill out my Census.
* Provide 2 pieces of photo identification for each person who has access to any part of the [insert Census or Survey you are addressing] Census of Agriculture hard copy, database, or data aggregate.
* Include for each person having access to this hard-copy, database, or data a sworn and notarized oath that the information filled out by insert your name will be used exclusively for purposes within the United States of America and will not be used for any statistical purposes outside of the Republic of the United States of America. The statement must INCLUDE that in no way will information provided by insert your name to the [insert Agency] USDA be for used for determining assets of insert your name or assets of the United States of America.

FINES & Penalties for failure to secure the private and personal data of insert your name is subject to prosecution within this country and international tribunal if any data (in any form including aggregate) goes outside the original 50 United States of America.

Your response must be postmarked no later than [insert the date you will 'respond'] for insert your name to respond. Please return the portion of the Census that you would like me to fill out. The Census of Agriculture was cut apart so that it could be scanned and tracking devices destroyed.

Your prompt attention to this matter is requested.

Sign your name


From the trenches,
Celeste
 

Shep

Contributing Member
Thank you, thank you, thank you!!!!! I'm sending these links to all of us who are really disturbed about this. I am going to send out the biblical refusal first and if I still get harrassed, then I'll send out the Citizen's Response.

THANK YOU CELESTE!!!!
Shep
 

Publius

TB Fanatic
Its has to do with some clever trickery done by some attorneys and if you go threw the process of getting the Patent to the land (true full title to the land) it will over ride that, but you will have to take them to appellate court (they have total jurisdiction over land Patents) once before that back down and leave you alone.
 

AZ Bluejacket

Deceased
In SE AZ, I know that water ownership is a problem. Two ranchers have water rights that were given by presidential order back in the Teddy Roosevelt era. Those rights are now under attack.

Not just by the Gov, but by local enviros---that water should be in the creek, not diverted into you stock tanks. The USFS has also attacked the rights saying that the water cannot be diverted off the forest. Upon presentation of the presidential papers, USFS said "Sooo?" "He is dead now."

AND, you never, never want to go under a water district in your are if you do not already have one. You will be FORCED to buy water even though you have had your own well for generations.

My two cents...
 
Stopping the CDC and NORC

One place these won't work is with the CDC, NORC, folks..... These are the ones trying to get your info on vaccinations. Their real goal is to get you to voluntarily consent to access your medical records and those of your family.

For the telephone harassment to stop all you have to say is, "Take me off your list". Do not say anything else, and they go away. I did an experiment with them trying all my 'tricks' to see which would be the most effective.

I have an article on the website about my experience with them as it proceeded real-time.

Stop Government Harassing and Trespassing: http://www.nonaiswa.org/?p=5358

Who says we can't turn the tables on surveillance onto them?

Celeste
 
In SE AZ, I know that water ownership is a problem. Two ranchers have water rights that were given by presidential order back in the Teddy Roosevelt era. Those rights are now under attack.

Not just by the Gov, but by local enviros---that water should be in the creek, not diverted into you stock tanks. The USFS has also attacked the rights saying that the water cannot be diverted off the forest. Upon presentation of the presidential papers, USFS said "Sooo?" "He is dead now."

AND, you never, never want to go under a water district in your are if you do not already have one. You will be FORCED to buy water even though you have had your own well for generations.

My two cents...

Unfortunately the enviros have been busy beavers. They are claiming even mud puddles belong to them. For people looking for bug-out land or just moving into the country-rural life make sure you have three things when you buy property:

Water Rights
Mineral Rights
Homestead Act

It throws a monkey-wrench into their plans.

Celeste
 

marsh

On TB every waking moment
Not an attorney, but have dealt with water law for the past 25 years. It is different in various parts of the country. Roughly, the east coast uses the old English riparian law. The arid west uses Roman Law - discovery, first in time, first in right and put to continuous beneficial use - subject to reasonableness. (Same as mining law.) California has its own special hell, which is a complex blend of the two. http://users.sisqtel.net/armstrng/watabloc.html

Then, in the west, in the early 1900s, the states generally took ownership of the use of all water not yet appropriated as a public trust. This they allocate out by permit. Of course, groundwater has its own rules.

In California, I could have a stream running through my property and be lower in usage rights than a fifth generation farmer upstream who's family first appropriated an amount from the stream for irrigation use in the 1860s. My priority date would depend on when my property was patented out of public domain or whether I had a predecessor who appropriated water earlier for mining or something.

An important case to western ranchers is Wayne Hage's case. It was based on split estate rights to public land forage and rights of way based on state water use rights acquired by usage on public lands long before they were reserved in Forest Reserves by the federal government. He died along with his two wives before it was completed, but he was successful in establishing the private rights and having them qualify for fifth Amendment property takings compensation. https://americanstewards.us/news-pu...2010/lmaug4/hage-v-us-moves-to-the-next-round
 

Easy G

Senior Member
I have heard of (but not enough about) getting the Patent to the land (True full title). It sounds like you know something about it. Could you share some more info on it?

Its has to do with some clever trickery done by some attorneys and if you go threw the process of getting the Patent to the land (true full title to the land) it will over ride that, but you will have to take them to appellate court (they have total jurisdiction over land Patents) once before that back down and leave you alone.
 

American Rage

Inactive
So, Agenda 21 sounds like it is in full swing. By applying all the federal laws to land owners, they can fine the land owners right off their own property. The depopulation will allow for "rewilding" of the lands those property owners stole from the natives. And those natives had 'owned' the land in common before the white man's theft. But don't worry, they'll find a nice little inner city apartment for you. Gun free, of course.
 

Publius

TB Fanatic
I have heard of (but not enough about) getting the Patent to the land (True full title). It sounds like you know something about it. Could you share some more info on it?


There is Team Law http://teamlaw.org And at one time 6th grader's knew how to do this on their own. The team Law site you have to really explore it and you will find info on it and there things he does not bring up, but dwell on it and you will figure it out sooner or later.
 

goinpostal

Contributing Member
Thank you for your input. I am very familiar with the Wayne Hague case, he was always in my prayers during that tragic time.

Celeste

Has there been any more info on the lady In Colorado that was being harassed for catching,and storing rainwater from her gutters?
I havnt heard anything else since the story made it's way around the boards awhile back.
Matt
 

nomifyle

TB Fanatic
Unfortunately the enviros have been busy beavers. They are claiming even mud puddles belong to them. For people looking for bug-out land or just moving into the country-rural life make sure you have three things when you buy property:

Water Rights
Mineral Rights
Homestead Act

It throws a monkey-wrench into their plans.

Celeste

Here in Louisiana I know I have mineral rights and the Homestead Act but I've never heard anyone complain about water rights. I do know that the water line along here has had problems with one of the wells going dry this last summer. Lots of folks around here do have wells. The land where I live was homesteaded by my relatives a few generations back. I only have a small portion but its like living in heaven.

Judy
 

Dobbin

Faithful Steed
I have heard of (but not enough about) getting the Patent to the land (True full title). It sounds like you know something about it. Could you share some more info on it?

Everything you need to know is at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_patent

In this area, the original patent was usually from the BRitish Crown to some individual. The Wentworths figure prominently among these, especially in the Exeter and Dover, NH areas. All Quitclaim deeds progress from these land patents and are recorded and become part of the public record. Also any insults to this quitclaim including non-payment of property taxes (which introduces a claim on one's land by the state.)

Out west, Quitclaim deed exists but the title law is less definite because of a separation of the various "right" (like Water Rights, Mineral Rights) each of which has to be negotiated and paid for separately from their owners, if that can be done.

There is some move here in the densely populated East to separate "Development Rights" from total ownership by Quitclaim deed. An owner of land wanting to reduce his property taxes can sell off the development right for his land to the town or a conservancy and this action reduces the value of the land (since it can't be subdivided further) and reduces the tax loading. HOwever, without owning the development right, that land and all the buildings upon it, must be kept the way it is.

A nearby farm (other than this one) has done this. To reduce their property taxes fully by half. It was voted upon by the town and approved, but there was some question. Some townspeople felt (correctly) that if the farm taxes went down, their taxes would go up. But the overall benefit to preserving open space was considered positive for the town and the vote to allow this transfer of right occurred. The dairy farm is now a dairy farm - and that is how it will stay. Possibly forever.

Incidentally, this is a case where ownership (of development right) does not necessarily confer ability to transfer right by payment. Just because you own the right doesn't mean you can sell it.

Sort of like life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

Come to think of it, development right is a liberty.

Joe
 

Troke

On TB every waking moment
Water Rights
Mineral Rights
Homestead Act


Better explain what you mean by Homestead Act.

As for the ephemeral Patent, that is surrounded by a Rage of Dreaming Sheep (Regular sheep come in flocks, DS's in Rages.), there ain't no such thing other than the original that transferred the property from public ownership to private and that is all it did.

I can tell you the date of the Patent on part of our farm. That was the year that the Patentee started paying property taxes. Works every time, you don't have to go into the Patent Register to get the date, the tax rolls will tell you.
 

marsh

On TB every waking moment
With the 1848 signing of the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo between the United States and the Republic of Mexico, the U.S. claimed the lands within much of the West as "Territory" of the United States. In implementing the provisions established under the U.S.- Mexico Treaty, U.S. land patents would first be awarded in validation of claims of those who could prove ownership under prior Spanish/Mexican land grants.

The California Land/Boundary Commission established under the Federal Land Act adjudicated these claims. (No claims were made for lands located within Siskiyou County.)

"A patent of the United States issued to a confirmance of a Spanish or an grant under the act of Congress of March 3, 1851, 9 Stat. 633, treated simply as the deed of the United States, is in its operation, like the deed of any other grantor, and passes only such interest as the United States possessed; the deed taking effect by relation at the date of the presentation of the petition of the patentee to the board of land commissioners. But such patent is not merely a deed of the United States. It is a record of the government - of its action and judgment with respect to the title of the patentee existing at the date of the cession of California - and as such record is conclusive evidence of the title of the patentee at the time the jurisdiction of the subject passed from the Mexican government to the United States." ( Leese v. Clark, 20 Cal. 387, 412.)

In addition to obligations under international treaties, land disposal was effected by national obligations to native American tribes. In the first Trade and Intercourse Act, ch. 33 1 Stat. 137 (1790) Congress provided that non-Indians could not acquire lands directly from Indians. In the 1823 Supreme Court case of Johnson v. McIntosh it was established that continued Indian "right of occupancy" and use of land could only be extinguished by the federal government through conquest, purchase or appropriation.

Until the United States extinguished "original Indian title," a cloud of Indian occupancy right remained on the individual's title. The national authority of the "federal land patent" became the vehicle by which the individual's legal title in the lands became perfected. The authority of the federal patent, by necessity, could not be challenged by competing State authority to determine what qualified as property without leaving original Indian title unextinguished. In this manner, the federal government has strategically retained control over the recognition of any legal title ripening through possessory interest.

In the west, land patents were issued when the land came out of public domain and into private ownership through the demonstration of possession (such as the acts set forth in the various homestead acts.) The federal policy of the time of early settlement was not to offer for private sale lands chiefly valuable for mineral development. Lands remained within the "public domain" until surveyed and offered for disposal as "public land"* under land patent through the agency of the General Land Office (later Bureau of Land Management).

[ "The words 'public lands' are habitually used in our legislation to describe such as are subject to sale or other disposal under general laws." Newhall v. Sanger, 92 U.S. 761; See also Leavenworth, etc., R. Co. v. U. S., Id. 733; Doolan v. Carr, 125 U.S. 618, 8 Sup. Ct. 1228. ]

The patenting process is essentially a judgement of the Land Office tribunal, serving as documentary evidence that:

Legitimate national obligations (compliance with international treaties and extinguishment of Indian occupancy) have been discharged so that national "interest" in the property can be quitclaimed;

The courts held that the operation of a patent as a deed was of the nature of a quitclaim to any interest as the United States possessed in the land; Beard v. Federy, 70 U.S. 478, 3 Wall, 478, 18 L.Ed.88. A patent to land of the United States constituted a full conveyance of title out of the United States; McArthur v. Brue, 67 So. 249, 250, 190 Ala. 563. The issuance of a patent divested the government of all authority and control over the land; Moore v. Robbins, Ill. 96 U.S. 530, 24 L.Ed. 848.

A patent passes to the patentee all interest of the United States, whatever it may have been, in everything connected with the soil and in fact everything embraced within the meaning of the term "land"; Damon v. Hawaii, 194 US 154, 48 L.Ed 916, 24 S.Ct. 617; Energy Transp. Systems, Inc. v. Union P. R. Co., (DC Wyo) 435 F.Supp 313, 60 OGR 427, affd (CA10 Wyo) 606 F2d 934, 65 OGR 576; Moore v. Smaw, 17 Cal 199; Hamilton v. Badgett, 293 Mo 324, 240 SW 214; Crawford Co, V. Hathaway, 67 Nob 325, 93 NW 781 (ovrid on other grounds Wassburger v. Coffee, 180 Neb 149, 141 NW2d 738, adhered to 180 Neb 569, 144 NW2d 209.

That all disputes concerning possessory rights have been adjudicated in (State) court;

For example, Section 34 of the Mining Act of May 10, 1872 (concerning challenges to an application for patent) states:

"It shall be the duty of the adverse claimant, within thirty days after filing his claim, to commence proceedings in a court of competent jurisdiction, to determine the question of the right of possession, and prosecute the same with reasonable diligence to a final judgement; and a failure so to do shall be a waiver of his adverse claim. After such judgement shall have been rendered, the party entitled to the possession of the claim, or any portion thereof, may, without giving further notice, file a certified copy of the judgement roll with the register of the land office, together with the certificate of the Director of the Bureau of Land Management [that federal statutory requirements for labor, description and fees have been met] whereupon the whole proceedings and the judgement roll shall be certified by the register to the Director of the Bureau of Land Management, and a patent shall issue thereon for the claim, or such portion thereof as the applicant shall appear, from the decision of the court, to rightly possess..."

That any statutory requirements of "proving up" and paying any claim fees have been met.

Once requirements are met by the claimant, issuance of a patent is not discretionary.

Once the federal patent requirements are satisfied, and there is no question of legitimate national interest in respect to treaties or trusts, the BLM is compelled to issue a patent to a claimant in rightful possession. For instance, Pittsburgh-Pacific Corporation applied for patents to a dozen claims in the Black Hills National Forest, upon which it asserted a discovery of iron ore. At the request of the Forest Service, the Bureau of Land Management challenged the existence of a discovery. When the contest came before the Interior's Board of Land Appeals, the State of South Dakota participated and argued that the Bureau must prepare and environmental impact statement on the patent application. The board held the EIS was not required because patent issuance is not discretionary once Mining Law requirements have been met. [United States v. Pittsburgh-Pacific, 84 I.D. 282, (1977); Confirmed South Dakota v. Andrus, 462 F. Supp. 905, D.S.D.(1978); aff'd. 614 F.2d 1190, 8th Cir, cert. denied 449 U.S. 222 (1980.)]

Once a land patent is issued, it stands as the highest evidence of legal title.

A patent to land is the judgment of the Land Department and the conveyance of the title in execution of it to the party adjudged entitled, and, when the land described was in the jurisdiction and subject to the disposition of the Land Department, it is impervious to collateral attack; Neff v. United States, 165 F. 273, 277, 91 C.C.A. 241.
A patent is recognized as the highest evidence of title, conclusive against the government and all claiming under junior patents or treaties until it set aside or annulled by some judicial tribunal; United States v. Mullan, 10 F. 785, 792; Bayner v. Stanly, 13 F. 217, 223.

If other parties possess equities superior to those of the patentee, a court of equity will, on proper proceedings, enforce such equities; but in an action in the federal court in which the legal title is involved, the patent when regular on its surface is conclusive; Redfield v. Parks, 10 S.Ct. 83, 88, 132 U.S. 239, 33 L.Ed.327.

After issuance of a patent, any subsequent claim of the United States to titles therein or other disputes between private claimants must be determined by the courts; U.S. v. McKenzie County, North Dakota, D.C.N.D., 187 F.Supp., 470 affirmed Murray v. U.S., 291 F.2d 161.

Suits to cancel a patent could only be brought within the statute of limitations, except for actions brought by the U.S. government (1) to recover the value of lands fraudulently obtained; (2) to construe and enforce a patent as construed; and (3) to impress a trust of the lands for the rightful owner - U.S. v. Whited, 38 S.Ct. 367, 246 U.S. 552, 62 L.Ed. 879; Issac Walton League of America v. St. Claire, D.C. Minn, 55 F.R.D. 139, affirmed 497 F 2d. 849, certiorari denied 95 S.Ct. 329, 419 U.S. 1009, 42 L.Ed.2d 284.

The expression "patent," used in Act of March 3, 1891, Section 8, 43 U.S.C.A. Section 1166, requiring suits to annul patents to be brought within six years after issuance, means a grant of land from the government. (United States v. La Roque, 198 F. 615, 648, 117 C.C.A. 349.)

A suit to cancel a patent must be brought by the United States, and, unless by virtue of an act of Congress, no one but the attorney general or someone authorized to use his name, can initiate the proceeding, (U.S. - U.S. v. Throckmorton, Cal. 98 U.S. 61, 25 L. Ed. 93.)

A patent conveying land which was a part of the public domain cannot be attacked or impeached by a person having no interest in the land, (U.S. - Roberts v. Southern Pacific Co., 185 P. 934, affirmed 219 1022, 134 C.C.A. 685; see also Issac Walton League v. St. Claire.) Such a patent is subject to impeachment only by the United States, or its grantee, (Idaho - Johnson v. Hurst, 77 P. 784, 10 Idaho 308,) or a person who has succeeded to its rights, (Utah - Ferry V. Street, 7 P. 712, 11 P. 571, 4 Utah 521,) or by a person who was defrauded or deprived of his rights by the issuance of a patent to another, (Cal. - Mery V. Brodt, 53 P. 818, 121 Cal. 332.).

The Official Federal Land Patent Records Site is http://www.glorecords.blm.gov/

It is a fallacy that someone can go down to the county recording office and get a copy of the original land patent issued on their property recorded with their deed and somehow have that property magically become alloiial in the sense of not having to pay property taxes or have the land subject to regulation. Generally, the County Recorder will not record the document and the County Treasurer will file a lien for unpaid taxes.
 
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marsh

On TB every waking moment
What you describe Joe is likely a "conservation easement." Not a good thing from my perspective. I believe they rob future generations from access to the highest and best use of natural resources and the ability to do their own land use planning. (CEs freeze the land use in perpetuity.)

Conservation easements - The Good, the Bad and the Ugly. http://www.nationalcenter.org/NPA569.html

Land Trusts Threaten Private Property
http://prfamerica.org/positions/LandTrustsThreatenPP.html

http://www.keepourrights.org/conservation_easement_brochure.pdf
 

marsh

On TB every waking moment
Final passage of the Homestead Act in 1862 permitted any adult citizen or permanent immigrant intending citizenship to claim 160 acres of public land for a $10 filing fee. Patenting of the land was conditional upon 5-10 years living on the land, building a house and cultivating the land; or purchasing outright at the going price ($1.25-$2.50 an acre.) The Act did not provide for patenting of tracts larger than 160 acres and was not reauthorized in 1890. Only about one tenth of new farms in the west were actually obtained by homestead.

In 1866, only 147,000 acres sold for cash or were homesteaded. In 1869, land homesteaded or purchased with either scrip, military warrants or cash totalled 2.4 million acres. In 1873, 658,000 acres were claimed.
 

Dobbin

Faithful Steed
What you describe Joe is likely a "conservation easement." Not a good thing from my perspective. I believe they rob future generations from access to the highest and best use of natural resources and the ability to do their own land use planning. (CEs freeze the land use in perpetuity.)

Conservation easements - The Good, the Bad and the Ugly. http://www.nationalcenter.org/NPA569.html

Land Trusts Threaten Private Property
http://prfamerica.org/positions/LandTrustsThreatenPP.html

http://www.keepourrights.org/conservation_easement_brochure.pdf

Having seen what happened at the nearby Dairy, Owner seems not want to push for the same here. There has been some ill will resulting from the town vote. Plus the door was opened to public claims against the Dairy. Dairy cannot post NO TRESPASS nor can they keep outsiders from entry. As you say it is a conservation easement, much as a property easement for passage of utility poles or gas lines. Give something up for something else in return.

I think Owner to be disinclined.

Joe
 

Publius

TB Fanatic
To acquire the Patent to the land one must go to their local county records and get a notarized copy of each and every title to each land owner going all the way back to where your state became a state or in the case of the ordinal 13 states back to the Lord it was granted to under the Crown of England and all this is called a "chain of title" you must also so get the map numbers and location of said property/land [need copy of map] on the government maps and submit that to the regional United States land office [call a head and ask about the fee] and the eastern side of the country there is only one Land Office and thats in Virginia and it may take a month or two maybe three months and you will receive a big fact envelope in the mail with all the paper work and in there will be your Land patent that is made out to you and your land and it's only transferable to an heir! a surviving spouse or Son or daughter and it can keep being pass on in this manner for ever. But if the land is sold the Patent is no longer valid as the Patent ends with the sale of the land.
 
Homestead Act is something you can request when you buy your place. It may be difficult to do these ,but in a private contract you could probably do it. I am not sure how to explain how it works but you are always first on the title and if something happened such as foreclosure they have to at least pay you 2/3. I had it on my last property and it was comforting knowing it was there though never using it, but not this one.

Those conservation easements are awful. We just moved from one, and a bear attacked our goats. Broke the door to the barn right down at dusk. It was a hefty door too. One goat was sliced and diced but lived, and one goat we never saw again. The bear climbed the tree when the ding-ding-ding began popping. But because it was an easement we couldn't do anything but scare tactics. Now on this place, it is a different story.

Celeste
 

Publius

TB Fanatic
And having done all that Publius, what useful purpose has been gained.?


You own the land outright as in full title and not the color of title and it puts you the land owner back on the land under the United States Constitution [Organic] with all the Rights Privileges and Immunities of a Citizen of The United States [It will state that last part in print on the Patent too] rather than under the Corporation united states constitution [perverted]. Governments' cannot take and or sell your land for back taxes, Government/congress cannot take your land unless they need it to build a fort or dock yard and they must give you full value for it, State government cannot take your land and same rules apply to the states, you own the mineral rights below it you own the wildlife that walks on to it, you own the fish that swim on to it, YOU OWN THE WATER THATS ON YOUR LAND And Or Rain That Falls On To It From The Sky.
 

Troke

On TB every waking moment
Homestead Act is something you can request when you buy your place.

And having done all that Publius, what useful purpose has been gained.?

You own the land outright as in full title and not the color of title and it puts you the land owner back on the land under the United States Constitution [Organic] with all the Rights Privileges and Immunities of a Citizen of The United States [It will state that last part in print on the Patent too] rather than under the Corporation united states constitution [perverted]. Governments' cannot take and or sell your land for back taxes,

If any of you folks laid out cash money for any of this, you got took.

1. The Abstract of Deed on our farm goes back to the Patent. That covers the Chain of Title and we had full title, not color of title or any of that other title stuff. And that is true of most Deeds although some States now only require a title search for XX year back.

2. Half our farm was patented under the Homestead Act. The Patentee was married to a relative of ours and my Grandfather was the next owner. The other half was Railroad Land, patented to the RR by the Gov. to get them to build a RR. My Grandfather was the 2nd owner there. Needless to say, our abstracts are quite short but my family has full ownership. We got all the rights that the Patentee got from the government.

As for a Patent preventing the gov from taking your land for back taxes, I got a bad shock for you. Don't try it, you will lose. The county forests in the Lake States were formed by tax delinquent land in the 1930's quite often from the original patentee. My FIL had such a property 40 yrs later and the Deed Abstract showed it.

BTW, land patents often show up at antique manuscript dealers. But don't buy one, go back to the land description and tell the occupant you now own the property. It won't work.
 

marsh

On TB every waking moment
There is a "homestead" exemption you can file for your property but it has to be done before you take out a loan. When I did it way back when, I believe the exemption was $20,000 for a single person and $ 40,000 for head of household. (Likely to have gone up since then.) It shielded that amount of value from a foreclosure. Of course, your mortgage lender would take that into consideration on the amount they would be willing to loan. You can get the forms in a stationery store, fill them out and file them. If you already have an existing mortgage, the homestead would be subordinate to that and any liens already filed.
 

momof23goats

Deceased
The requirement is that you have to RESPOND. It does not say how you have to respond. I created a cover letter that says that due to my religion I cannot participate and I cite the Scriptures forbidding participation in any census other than as dictated by God. That gets you out of the fine and you have done your duty. It works for the federal census too although I have a whole packet of hoops for those people, they leave shaking in their boots, while I come away with censusing all their private information. I love it!!!!

Take the cover letter, cut off any bar codes that are on it because they are tracking devices, I did this even with the federal census, cut it to shreds right in front of them, and return the unanswered census to them. Well, officially in your cover letter you can say how many people live there, but that is it.

If you want I can post my cover letter. I have never received one afterwards ;-)

Celeste

needless to say, you can also open up the door on your wood stove, and drop it in. zip zap , gone. I have never got one either, but if I did, i would just drop it in, the stove ,by accident of course.
 

Limner

Deceased
Biblical Response: http://www.nonaiswa.org/?p=7809


Dirt on the Census and Survey: http://www.nonaiswa.org/?p=7861
Citizen Response: http://www.nonaiswa.org/?p=7815
Biblical Response to Census and Surveys: The Pestilence of Census and Surveys


Here is a call for the endurance and the faith of the saints.

At the foundations of this world G-d established His Word. He brought life onto this earth and it is by His hand it shall be taken. For G-d’s good pleasure alone did he take a census of His people.

The Shepherd alone cares for his family and herds.

John 10:12

He that is a hireling, and not a shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, beholdeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth, and the wolf snatcheth them, and scattereth them.

[USDA] Insert the Agency of your choice doing the surveying or Census

You are not the G-d or shepherd of G-d’s people and their property. Our lives are not ours but His. For G-d’s people to partake in census is to incur pestilence from the Almighty G-d.

We are shepherds and we refuse to allow asset predators to snatch, scatter and destroy our families and herds.

1 Chronicles

21 Then Satan stood against Israel and incited David to number Israel. 2 So David said to Joab and the commanders of the army, “Go, number Israel, from Beersheba to Dan, and bring me a report, that I may know their number.” 3 But Joab said, “May the LORD add to his people a hundred times as many as they are! Are they not, my lord the king, all of them my lord’s servants? Why then should my lord require this? Why should it be a cause of guilt for Israel?” 4 But the king’s word prevailed against Joab. So Joab departed and went throughout all Israel and came back to Jerusalem. 5 And Joab gave the sum of the numbering of the people to David. In all Israel there were 1,100,000 men who drew the sword, and in Judah 470,000 who drew the sword. 6 But he did not include Levi and Benjamin in the numbering, for the king’s command was abhorrent to Joab.

7 But God was displeased with this thing, and he struck Israel. 8 And David said to God, “I have sinned greatly in that I have done this thing. But now, please take away the iniquity of your servant, for I have acted very foolishly.” 9 And the LORD spoke to Gad, David’s seer, saying, 10 “Go and say to David, ‘Thus says the LORD, Three things I offer you; choose one of them, that I may do it to you.’ ” 11 So Gad came to David and said to him, “Thus says the LORD, ‘Choose what you will:

Three years of famine,
Three months of devastation by your foes while the sword of your enemies overtakes you,
Three days of the sword of the LORD,
Pestilence on the land, with the angel of the LORD destroying throughout all the territory of Israel.’

Now decide what answer I shall return to him who sent me.” 13 Then David said to Gad, “I am in great distress. Let me fall into the hand of the LORD, for his mercy is very great, but do not let me fall into the hand of man.”

I hereby decline to be numbered

In sound mind and body and as a responsible individual I respectfully decline your invitation for voluntary or mandatory participation in this survey or census. I am exercising my Constitutional God given right of religious freedom and as per mandate in Scripture refusing to be numbered in any census or survey that has not been ordained by God, Maker of Heaven and Earth. As you can see the consequences above are a serious matter and I do not desire the judgment mentioned above to fall upon myself, family, friends, or yourselves.

Sign your name

Date


Or you can choose the Citizen Response:

Citizen Response to Census or Survey [of Agriculture]


[Date] Insert

[Agency] Insert Agency who contacted you

[Agency Address] Insert Agency Address

[Insert your name]


[Insert your address]

[Address the Agency] Dear United States Department of Agriculture,

In this day of privacy theft I am sure that you can understand that a citizen needs to be pro-active in ensuring their data is safe and secure. For this reason insert your name family policy clearly states that the enclosed Public Servant Questionnaire must be fully filled out by each person who will see the [insert what name of census or survey you are responding to] and by each person who will have access either to the hard copy, database, data aggregate information, or any and all persons manning GPS units.

* Please ensure that all sections of the Public Servant Questionnaire are filled out by all persons seeing the hardcopy, data, or database so that I may promptly fill out my Census.
* Provide 2 pieces of photo identification for each person who has access to any part of the [insert Census or Survey you are addressing] Census of Agriculture hard copy, database, or data aggregate.
* Include for each person having access to this hard-copy, database, or data a sworn and notarized oath that the information filled out by insert your name will be used exclusively for purposes within the United States of America and will not be used for any statistical purposes outside of the Republic of the United States of America. The statement must INCLUDE that in no way will information provided by insert your name to the [insert Agency] USDA be for used for determining assets of insert your name or assets of the United States of America.

FINES & Penalties for failure to secure the private and personal data of insert your name is subject to prosecution within this country and international tribunal if any data (in any form including aggregate) goes outside the original 50 United States of America.

Your response must be postmarked no later than [insert the date you will 'respond'] for insert your name to respond. Please return the portion of the Census that you would like me to fill out. The Census of Agriculture was cut apart so that it could be scanned and tracking devices destroyed.

Your prompt attention to this matter is requested.

Sign your name


From the trenches,
Celeste

THANK YOU for this, Celeste!!!!!
 

Troke

On TB every waking moment
There is a "homestead" exemption you can file for your property but it has to be done before you take out a loan.

Every state is different but this is worth looking into. In some, your actual residence is protected from foreclosure from some other bankruptcy, not from failure to pay taxes or mortgage. In other words you can't be thrown into the street because your business failed or you lost a law suit. And it only covers your residence, not the 1000 acres attached thereto.

But as I say, every State is different and you ought to be familiar with it.

In other States it is automatic, but only after the age 65. Before that, you are on your own. I guess they figured you were still young enough to recover.
 

etdeb

Veteran Member
We recently ran into the water issue here in Texas. My brother drilling wells last year to water livestock, all wells now require a permit to drill. He drilled, used the wells last summer, then about 6 weeks ago received a letter from the County Water Conversation District that his pump exceeded the 7 gal per min rule. He paid high dollar for these pumps that pump 70 gals min, paid for the electricity to be run to the wells and paid the power company all summer to keep water to the herds. He had 14 days to pull and replace the pumps, apply for a special permit to allow the water use at that rate or face civil penalty.
 
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