SCI We may have mated with Neanderthals more than 219,000 years ago

Melodi

Disaster Cat
And in the category of news that may upset more archeological apple carts - today we have Neanderthal and human DNA mixed way sooner in Europe than it "should" be happening - I LOVE stories like this!

https://www.newscientist.com/articl...ocial&utm_source=Twitter#link_time=1499181662

Daily news

4 July 2017
We may have mated with Neanderthals more than 219,000 years ago

f05930.jpg


Ancient human skulls
We have a thing for Neanderthals

ZUMA Press, Inc/Alamy Stock Photo

By Aylin Woodward

It’s a sex-laced mystery. If modern humans didn’t reach Europe until about 60,000 years ago, how has DNA from them turned up in a Neanderthal fossil in Germany from 124,000 years ago?

The answer seems to be that there was a previous migration of early humans – more than 219,000 years ago. One that we’re only just starting to reveal from piecemeal evidence that is DNA extracted from fossilised bones.

The story, as far as we knew it, was that the ancestors of modern humans diverged from Neanderthals and Denisovans between 550,000 and 765,000 years ago. While Neanderthals and Denisovans inhabited Eurasia, modern humans stayed in Africa until about 60,000 years ago. Then they entered Europe, too.

Learn more at New Scientist Live in London Come see our expert talk on ten species that changed our world

There is ample evidence of breeding between Neanderthals and the ancestors of modern humans some 50,000 years ago. “Everyone knows Neanderthals gave us genes,” says Cosimo Posth at the Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History in Leipzig, Germany.

Analysis of mitochondrial DNA from a Neanderthal femur found in south-western Germany now adds to evidence that there was earlier interbreeding. The DNA in the energy-producing mitochondria in our cells is different from that in our cell nuclei, and is passed only down the female line.

Puzzlingly, the mtDNA in Neanderthal bones is more similar to that of modern humans than it is to that of the Denisovans.

Posth and his colleagues looked at differences between the mtDNA in this femur and in other Neanderthals, and used mutational rates to calculate that the bone is 124,000 years old. The approach also indicates that this Neanderthal split from all other known Neanderthals sometime between 316,000 and 219,000 years ago. Yet it still contains key elements of early human mtDNA.

This means that modern human ancestors must have interbred with Neanderthals before 219,000 years ago Ð and hence could have migrated out of Africa and into Europe much earlier than we thought.
Cultural swaps

“We are realising more and more that the evolutionary history of modern and archaic humans was a lot more reticulated than we would have thought 10 years ago,” says team member Fernando Racimo of the New York Genome Center. “This and previous findings are lending support to models with frequent interbreeding events.”

The team says an earlier migration event is also compatible with evidence of archaeological similarities between Africa and western Eurasia. “It would be interesting to analyse multiple lines of evidence of possible connectivity between continents and see if there was potential contact that spread not only genes but also cultural information,” Posth says.

The results also suggest that Neanderthals had a much greater genetic diversity and larger population than we realised.

This study broadens our view, from the genetic perspective, of who the Neanderthals were as a species, says Toomas Kivisild at the University of Cambridge. “Previous work based on more than a dozen Neanderthal samples whose mitochondrial DNA had been sequenced has portrayed Neanderthals as a species of very low effective population size and genetic diversity,” he says.

Journal reference: Nature Communications, DOI: 10.1038/ncomms16046
 

Dozdoats

On TB every waking moment
Unless genes lie, or modern humans don't know how to interpret genetic evidence, there is no doubt.

Some folks even brag about it :D - http://vault-co.blogspot.com/ for example.
--------------------------------------------------------

http://www.rdos.net/eng/asperger.htm

The Neanderthal theory
Leif Ekblad, Independent Researcher
Invented 2001-04-24
Last modified 2013-06-06

snip/
Abstract
In the past there have been numerous theories for the cause(s) of neurodiversity conditions like Autism, Asperger's syndrome, ADD/ADHD, OCD, Social phobia, Dyslexia, Dyscalculia, Bipolar, Schizophrenia, Tourette and Dyspraxia. Most of these theories can at best explain small parts of these diverse syndromes. Many of them extend their findings in spectacular ways to be able to claim to explain larger parts of neurodiversity with little success.

This theory approaches the problem from a new radical viewpoint. Instead of approaching neurodiversity conditions as disorders, brain defects or the result of poor socialization or parenting, it claims that neurodiversity is fully functional human variation.

All the areas that are central to neurodiversity are related to species-typical adaptations that vary widely between species. These include nonverbal signals, social organization, sensory acuteness, perception, motor skills, general preferences, sexuality, courtship, physical traits and biological adaptations. Some of this diversity is poorly understood and virtually unresearched and therefore is not published in peer-reviewed journals. Because of this lack of research, Aspie Quiz, an online questionnary, is heavily referenced for these traits.

Recent genetic research have demonstrated that Neanderthals contributed at least 1-4% to the non-African genome. Aspie Quiz have demonstrated in a large survey in the US population that Afroamericans have only 1/6 of the autism incidence of non-African groups.

Principal Component Analysis (PCA) of Aspie Quiz yields axes that seems to be related to the first Eurasian Homo, the formation of modern humans in Africa or South Asia and the hybridization between modern humans and Neanderthals in Eurasia. In Caucasians, these axises seems to be 1.8 million years, 150,000 years and 33,000 years. In Asians, they seem to be 1.8 million years, 130,000 years and 44,000 years.
/snip
 

dstraito

TB Fanatic
We may have mated with Neanderthals more than 219,000 years ago

"If you can't be with the one you love, love the one you're with" CSN


Proves once again people should drink responsibly
 

BoPeep

Inactive
The Bible talks about the Nephilim (believed to be fallen angels) breeding with human women, and producing giants. I truly believe these offspring were the neanderthal skeletons and bones that are found. And the neanderthal blood was intermingled in Noah's daughters-in-law, and introduced into the humans birthed after the flood.

I suppose if one doesn't believe the Bible, one can come up with other ways this has occurred.
 

Chance

Veteran Member
Curious about where you compare genetically?

There is always 23andMe to do the analysis.

They will compare your 'Neanderthal variants' to the tested population.

Pretty cool info.

Maybe some of us don't want to know. :) :trl:



The Neanderthal in All of Us
September 17, 2015 By 23andMe under 23andMe and you, Ancestry
Yes you are thoroughly evolved, but don’t be too smug about it because Neanderthal Imagealmost all of us are a little Neanderthal, which you can see using 23andMe.

First, it’s worth learning a bit of background.Neanderthals are an extinct species of human who died out around 30,000 years ago, but not before leaving a bit of themselves behind in almost all non-Africans living today.

Scientists believe that modern humans migrating out of Africa crossed paths with Neanderthals perhaps living alongside them for as long as 5,000 years. Not a long time in an evolutionary timescale, but long enough to intermix. The result: all non-Africans living today carry some of our ancient relatives DNA.

The absence of Neanderthal DNA in people of African descent points to the history of human migration, and indicates that the intermixing of Neanderthals and our modern humans must have occurred soon after the movement out of Africa, but likely before the large migrations into Europe and Asia out of the Middle East. People often want to know what the average percentage of Neanderthal ancestry individuals typically have.

This number will vary, but is usually somewhere between 1 and 4 percent. So for example if you have 3.1 percent, that would place you in the 97th percentile, meaning you’d have more Neanderthal in you than 97 of 100 23andMe users!

How do we derive the specific percentage of ancient ancestry your DNA contains? It’s pretty complicated, but basically we compare two modern human genomes with the Neanderthal genome and then plot individual data on a trained axis.

Check out Eric Durand’s white paper, which gives a much more technical explanation of this calculation.



Recent studies have also shown that there may have been intermixing with other ancient species as well. Another ancient relative, the Denisovans (named for Denisova cave in Siberia), share even more DNA ( between 4-6 percent on average ) with present-day Melanesians (people of Vanuatu, the Solomon Islands, Fiji, and Papua New Guinea). However,

More on Neanderthals – Meeting at the Crossroads – Dem Bones – Neanderthal Fade Away
we don’t currently have a feature for Denisovan ancestry.
https://blog.23andme.com/23andme-and-you/the-neanderthal-in-all-of-us/

Based on this discovery, there may be other ancient human species who we share DNA with, who could have contributed to our lasting modern-day genomes.Why should you care? While the Neanderthal DNA may not tell us much about what features and traits we share with this ancient species, the DNA we do not share could hold the key to why Neanderthals went extinct and why we, modern humans, became the evolutionary winners.
 

Melodi

Disaster Cat
We have a lively thread on my facebook page on this - the real NEWS in this article isn't the existence of Neanderthal DNA in modern non-African humans; that's been known for a few years now what was not known was how far back in the geological record this went.

Since very few sub-Saharan modern Africans have ANY Neanderthal DNA it is assumed that the mixing happened mostly in Europe and the Near East (including possibly North Africa) because most of the evidence for Homo Sapiens Sapiens is from about 50,000 years ago in Europe (with a few individual burials in what is now modern Israel from between 100,000 and 200,000 years ago) archeologists made the educated guess that the mixing occurred about 50,000 years ago in Europe.

If this research is correct; then the dating for the earliest interactions is MUCH earlier or on a par with the oldest known finds of modern Humans outside of Africa, which is between 100,000 and 200,000 years ago but only in the Ancient Near East (and Africa).

This means it is likely that first migration, which some paleo-archeologists have called a "failed" migration didn't stop and die out in the ancient Near East; rather these people probably continued up into Europe and beyond and/or Neanderthals were much further South than previously realized (both are likely).

If Neanderthals had migrated back into sub-Saharan African; then modern people there should have at least a tiny trace of their ancestry; since they don't it is unlikely that many of them went that far South. While the climate was different, Neanderthals, as a group were very cold, adapted and probably would not have done well in tropical climates; we know they eventually lived in places like Gibralter but that was towards the end of their time as at least an unmixed group (lots of debates going on as to if they really died out or just some died out while others "married in.")
 

Melodi

Disaster Cat
Another point, many historians, and even archeologists will speak of the "Ice Age" as if it were a monolithic one-off event that buried Northern and parts of Southern Europe totally in ice; in reality it was several different waves of ice that moved back and forth down and back up towards the North Pole; allowing people to move North at different times and then forcing them South again (or sometimes West or East).

Since recent evidence (no link here but I think I posted it before) shows that some Stone Age people moved as much as 2,000 miles during their lifetime (they can tell that by the plant residue left on their teeth and in their bones); it is highly likely that during a slightly warmer period that several groups of modern humans could have walked into the colder climates and settled in with Neanderthal neighbors, and even sharing mates with them.
 

Satanta

Stone Cold Crazy
_______________
There is a lot that is speculation. Recently, abd I think it was here on TB, there was a post saying modern man originated in Europe and not Africa and that DNA from European lines were found all over the M.E. I watched a vid with some black guy claiming white people were impure and only blacks were actually "Human". And, this is no way knocking black people but anyone with a curious mind and a bit of science in their background *can* see the resemblance of modern black [[many, not all]] to depictions of Neanderthals and even modern apes-this is not saying blacks are apes or knocking them but it is what it is even down to the face structure and teeth even tho the cranial structure for a better brain is also obvious.

A lot we do not nor ever will know.

Movie "Quest for Fire" Caveman/Neanderthal [[white]] meets more modern human woman [[black]], they adventure and end up getting it on and making babies. "Caveman", neanderthals learn to cook and walk upright. Some of that might be closer to reality than we know.
 

Melodi

Disaster Cat
Quest for Fire was done before most people outside of stone age archeological circles realized that Neanderthals walked upright, had fire pits 200,000 years ago (and possibly before) ate vegetables and grains as well as meat; and did in fact produce art and probably practice at least some forms of religion (the last is hard to prove, but we now have carvings and musical instruments associated with them).

I'd like to say it was a good movie for its time, except I was in college when it came out and it was already known (and in most library sources) that the reason for thinking Neanderthals were bent hunchbacks was because the very first find was of an old man with joint disease (the fact that he was alive in old age in that condition suggest people who loved him and helped keep him alive too).

The "not out of Africa" story is a bit complicated (I posted it here) it is more an indication that early people (even very early people) migrated all over the place and what we think of as "pre-human" species may have mated outside of Africa as well as inside leading to certain strains in modern people since like lions and tigers they could interbreed; they probably just didn't do it very often (especially with the older groups).

That article (and research) is suggesting that SOME of what goes into what we consider to me modern people may have mixed in matched in Asia or the Near East as well (or perhaps even instead of) in Africa itself.

The real argument (so far) for much of it being in Africa, is the like of combinations with other groups seen so far in most African DNA; but it is still early days yet and science is still learning ways both to examine and read the DNA record.

As someone whose professor told them after measuring it, that they had a "perfect Neanderthal Skull that should have disappeared 50,000 years ago) at age 18; I've been interesting in this topic for a long time; I'm just thankful I didn't get the brow ridges (but I do have the long skull and bun in the back). I do want to get tested at some point but I'm waiting for the costs to go down and the tests to get better (those offered to the general public, which in many cases are not worth much).
 

ted

Veteran Member
It is considered by most genetic scientists working on this that the genes for red hair and probably blue eyes came from the Neanderthal side of the human family tree.

So that is why they call me a knuckle dragger...LOL!
 

von Koehler

Has No Life - Lives on TB
The Bible talks about the Nephilim (believed to be fallen angels) breeding with human women, and producing giants. I truly believe these offspring were the neanderthal skeletons and bones that are found. And the neanderthal blood was intermingled in Noah's daughters-in-law, and introduced into the humans birthed after the flood.

I suppose if one doesn't believe the Bible, one can come up with other ways this has occurred.

Kinds of demolishes the whole planet "was made in 6,000 years" dogma, unless further insane religious claims are made.

FA
 

PghPanther

Has No Life - Lives on TB
I have a very keen sense of smell........larger morals teeth and a prominent brow.......and blue/green hazel eyes......all traits of Neanderthal genes........

The only race that has no Neanderthal genes are those who never strayed out of Africa......seems that Whites have the highest percentage.
 

Night Owl

Veteran Member
I'm so sure Neanderthal's were complete gentlemen. No pillaging back then, just trade goods with your neighbors.
 

Melodi

Disaster Cat
I'm so sure Neanderthal's were complete gentlemen. No pillaging back then, just trade goods with your neighbors.

While they do seem to have engaged in some trade; a standard mark of difference between Neanderthals and "modern" humans is that Neanderthals seem to have found a spot they liked and then lived there for generations until they were forced to move somewhere else. We still don't know if such living sites were seasonal say caves for Winter and perhaps tents or branch dwellings further away and closer to game migrations in the Summer but if they did this; they probably didn't travel very far (unlike later humans who might go several hundred miles between seasonal camps).

While we HAVE mammoth bone houses for Cromagnons; we don't have any evidence of Neanderthals doing this - YET; but then a lot of what are likely Neanderthal finds in terms of artwork, trade goods, musical instruments etc; were until recently not counted as Neanderthal finds (because science "knew" they didn't do that). As I predicted here on Timebomb years ago, the moment they proved Neanderthal DNA was in modern humans; suddenly all those old finds were looked at again and many recategorized as Neanderthal finds (aka they came from Neanderthal excavations and had been found alongside other evidence).

There is at least one certain instant of cannibalism; probably the result of an attack by other Neanderthals, found so far in the archeological record so while we don't have evidence for widespread warfare like you get later with modern humans; Neanderthals certainly seemed capable of raiding their enemies, killing and eating them.

There are other finds that show some other evidence of cannibalism but the majority of burials found so far do NOT show this; so while it did occur (and at least once probably accompanied by a war party of sorts) it doesn't seem to have been the usual practice either.

Probably varied between groups as it does among modern humans; even today there are still a few head hunters left (or former ones) and societies in wild places (like the Amazon) that believe in cremating their dead and eating the ashes). That sounds gross to us and it probably sounded gross to groups and tribes who didn't do this sort of thing back then too; the evidence so far is that ancient man (modern and Neanderthal, probably Denisovian too) had lots of different outlooks, customs, and cultures; probably varying a lot because the population was small and the distances pretty vast between them.
 

marsh

On TB every waking moment
There is also a branch of Neanderthal that is Siberian. They then came down through the Balkans, mixing with human, and into the Mediterranean, then heading west. A branch is likely to have gone over to Alaska and down the west coast as well. (Kennebec man, Clovis boy.)
 

Richard

TB Fanatic
They were so a wonderful influence........as against racist modern humanoids.......

What is the genetic evidence.............one way or t'other
 

Daytonabill0001

Wheat or Tare, which are you?
I've got only one question...

Were these people a previous creation of God who fell into judgement when their king fell (Lucifer did have a kingdom once)

OR

Are these people descended from single celled organisms? If so, then WHO can witness the veracity of those claims, as an eyewitness?

Have we grown so brain dead that we can't even see how ridiculous evolution is? I mean come on, you can't prove evolution in court which requires evidence and WITNESSES...

Me, I lean to God's story of how the human race came about...

I don't doubt that there were other classes or creations before Adam and we won't be the last one either... There weren't any Neanderthals alive when Adam was created because they were all killed from the great flood before Noah's flood. Ref. 2nd verse of the Scriptures...

It should be noted that the geologic column was created by a rushing flood, then the falling sediment, heavier things first and successively lighter things falling in layers...

Yes, gravity sucks...

This is why trees are sometimes found in the geologic column in vertical positions, standing upright THROUGH what is thought to be countless millennia of stratum...

There were no land above the waters for awhile, as a result of the previous judgement, then God showed up and began to restore the earth to get it ready for man.

The Neanderthals were long dead before Man ever showed up...

Ever wondered about fallen man's so called wisdom? He doesn't have any unless he got it from God...

Anything other than God's wisdom is false and pathetic, not even worthy to be called wisdom...

For there to be an evolution, there must first be a devolution from original state...

Man was created, given a kingdom and crowned with Glory, then he fell and the light went out... That was when he saw that he was naked and you know the rest of the story...

It took the first generation of man a long time for biological death to manifest and stayed high until Noah's Flood and then lifespans plummeted down to the short lifespans we have today... Mostly because of decay of our genes due to time, chemicals and radiation from the sun...

Devolve, or a state of atrophy...

Ever heard of a New Man? They exist among us now and will be revealed when Jesus returns to set up His kingdom...

I'll give you a hint, they know Jesus now and hear His voice all of the time...

This will become common knowledge before long, wait and see...

So, if you guys still want to believe in evolution, at least look at it this way...

Man fell from glory and devolution from original purpose and biologic condition started and still runs to this day and the New Birth (resulting in the New Man) is God restoring Man to his original condition and purpose that God had intended.
 

Texican

Live Free & Die Free.... God Freedom Country....
and here's how it all started :) :)

Jimmy Castor Bunch - Troglodyte (Cave Man)....:lkick:...:lkick:...:lkick:

Funny, but definitely explains a lot about the actions of many of today's people.... :shkr:....:shkr:....:shkr:

I have been called at lot worse that Neanderthal and Cave Man....:hmm:....:hmm:....:hmm:

I worked hard to earn the titles....:D....:D....:D

Texican....
Live Free and Die Free....
 

Faroe

Un-spun
It is considered by most genetic scientists working on this that the genes for red hair and probably blue eyes came from the Neanderthal side of the human family tree.

Then, why reconstruct with a wide nose? Is that indicated in the skulls, or were the scientists trying to keep things looking "primitive?" The other distinctive feature of European man is a narrow nose with a higher bridge. Also, narrower lips (along with the less prognathous jaw, which is probably NOT reflected in the Neanderthal skulls-?) Just curious what features we really inherited from these people. Personally, I think they may have been intellectually more advanced.
 

Lorraine in GA

Senior Member
The Bible talks about the Nephilim (believed to be fallen angels) breeding with human women, and producing giants. I truly believe these offspring were the neanderthal skeletons and bones that are found. And the neanderthal blood was intermingled in Noah's daughters-in-law, and introduced into the humans birthed after the flood.

I suppose if one doesn't believe the Bible, one can come up with other ways this has occurred.

^^^^THIS!!! You beat me to it.
 

Daytonabill0001

Wheat or Tare, which are you?
Neanderthals had larger brains than Homo sapiens.
Now that is something I would agree with...

They were not as advanced as Adam, hence the need for a larger brain to control the body...

You know, primitive neurons and axons that didn't even have the need for myelin sheaths...

Reminds me of the rooms of computers needed to do what a laptop does today...
 

Daytonabill0001

Wheat or Tare, which are you?
The Bible talks about the Nephilim (believed to be fallen angels) breeding with human women, and producing giants. I truly believe these offspring were the neanderthal skeletons and bones that are found. And the neanderthal blood was intermingled in Noah's daughters-in-law, and introduced into the humans birthed after the flood.

I suppose if one doesn't believe the Bible, one can come up with other ways this has occurred.
The Neanderthals were not giants though...
 

Daytonabill0001

Wheat or Tare, which are you?
And the neanderthal blood was intermingled in Noah's daughters-in-law, and introduced into the humans birthed after the flood.
Don't know how I missed this one, but the Scriptures says that Noah was perfect in his generation which was necessary for the Kinsman Redeemer's bloodline to continue after God destroyed the rest of mankind.

God destroyed all flesh because it had been corrupted due to the fallen angels and giants breeding with everything to the point where only Noah's generation was the last one still perfect.

For the Royal Bloodline of the Kinsman Redeemer to continue, Noah's wife and daughters in law had to also be perfect in their generations...

So, no intermingled blood or dna...

Besides, the Neanderthals had been long dead before Adam was created, that's why Satan ordered the fallen angels to try to disrupt the Scarlet bloodline by breeding for the race of giants, who were the seed of Satan, as referred to in Gen 3:15

So, no Neanderthals after Adam was created...
 

Melodi

Disaster Cat
Then, why reconstruct with a wide nose? Is that indicated in the skulls, or were the scientists trying to keep things looking "primitive?" The other distinctive feature of European man is a narrow nose with a higher bridge. Also, narrower lips (along with the less prognathous jaw, which is probably NOT reflected in the Neanderthal skulls-?) Just curious what features we really inherited from these people. Personally, I think they may have been intellectually more advanced.

No the nose was also in the skeletal evidence, researchers have believed that the extra wide-large nose was probably to filter the very cold air during the ice age; the sinuses are also larger which may explain part of the reason for the larger skull; they did have more basic brain power, though how they used it exactly is still being learned.

But the big nose, yep that shows up in all over the place; today we think of it as African but it emerged in Neanderthals during the Ice Age; possibly for different reasons (big noses are easy to drop in and out of the population).

Some "Europeans" have really big noses too, but our version tends to go towards large and pointed rather than flat and wide (but flat and wide is less likely to get frost bite).
 

Melodi

Disaster Cat
Don't know how I missed this one, but the Scriptures says that Noah was perfect in his generation which was necessary for the Kinsman Redeemer's bloodline to continue after God destroyed the rest of mankind.

God destroyed all flesh because it had been corrupted due to the fallen angels and giants breeding with everything to the point where only Noah's generation was the last one still perfect.

For the Royal Bloodline of the Kinsman Redeemer to continue, Noah's wife and daughters in law had to also be perfect in their generations...

So, no intermingled blood or dna...

Besides, the Neanderthals had been long dead before Adam was created, that's why Satan ordered the fallen angels to try to disrupt the Scarlet bloodline by breeding for the race of giants, who were the seed of Satan, as referred to in Gen 3:15

So, no Neanderthals after Adam was created...

I'm sorry but the DNA evidence does not agree with you; most Europeans and Asians are 1 to 4 percent Neanderthal genetics and Asians often have a small percentage of Densivoian DNA as well. That is what the SCIENCE says..and Neanderthals were hardly giants; big and powerful muscles yes, giants in height? Not so much unless you think 5'6" to 5'8" is giant...
 

PghPanther

Has No Life - Lives on TB
I'm sorry but the DNA evidence does not agree with you; most Europeans and Asians are 1 to 4 percent Neanderthal genetics and Asians often have a small percentage of Densivoian DNA as well. That is what the SCIENCE says..and Neanderthals were hardly giants; big and powerful muscles yes, giants in height? Not so much unless you think 5'6" to 5'8" is giant...

Well stated....

I'm sorry Biblical literalists.......science deals with evidence scrutinized through the scientific method to develop working models that are consistent and accurate in reality and it is provision claims in science meaning that as soon as better evidence is obtained the results can be revised to fit the model of reality...........

..........you can't start trying to shoe horn ancient absolute truth claims of prescientific superstitious societies like those of the Bible into fitting into reality and think it’s going to make sense for your world view..........this whole process was tried challenged and failed way too many times since the 1600s when the scientific method was invented and first practiced by Galileo along with the evidence that the universe wasn't Earth centric but actually revolved around a helio centric solar system of the sun.............and those ancient claims on reality have been losing out on that ever since......
 
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