ENER Understanding the SEER Ratings

NC Susan

Deceased
http://www.acdirect.com/truth-about-seer-ratings

The Truth About SEER Ratings


As with anything having to do with energy conservation SEER is probably the least understood concept, both by homeowners and contractors. Simply put, SEER stands for Seasonal Energy Efficiency Ratio. The resulting number that is applied to an air conditioner is called it's SEER rating. The higher the SEER rating the more energy efficient a given air conditioner is. (we're assuming for comparison purposes that all other variables are the same between the systems compared).
Here's where the confusion begins: How high is high enough? Given a choice of 5 different SEER rating which one should you select? The answers provided to homeowners here are almost always incomplete, if not just plain wrong.
Let's start by remembering that the most efficient air conditioner known to man is one that is in the "off" position. Period. The least efficient air conditioner is one that runs continually, never shuts off and never cools the home. Between these two extremes are many shades of gray that we will attempt to clarify here. Think of SEER ratings the same way you do MPG ratings for automobiles, but instead think of Btu's per watt.
Assuming that you are offered 4 choices of SEER ratings that span the gulf between the federal minimum (13 SEER) and the current extreme high (23 SEER) and are left to fend for yourself in the selection process, let's examine how you can make the one right choice every time. (And there will always be just one right choice for you).
Your odds are much greater than 1 in 4

Chances are, you would be offered 2, or 3, or 4 SEER rating choices along with some limited and/or biased information about the best choice and finally settle after discovering that you haven't been equipped with the right information to choose the one (and only one) right SEER rating for your needs. Now for a little light math.
SEER is simply a formula that is described by the outcome of the following:

  • Divide the system's rated Btu's by it's stated SEER rating to determine how many watts it consumes per hour, (Kwh stands for kilo-watt hour).
Here's the formula (we'll use a 3 ton, 15 SEER system for this comparison):


  • 36,000 Btu's (3 tons) divided by 15 SEER = 2400 (**remember this number**)
Not too bad so far (your past the hardest part) but what does the outcome (2400) mean? This is simply the number of watts consumed each operating hour by the system.
The last step is too determine your annual operating cost to use as a basis of comparison to determine which of the multiple SEER rating choices you've been offered is best.
To do that we need to know how many hours, on average, your system will operate. While many factors are involved here let's assume that you operate your system the same way most people in your geographical area do. This assumes that you:
Set your thermostat at or near 78 most of the time
Turn up/ off your system when you're gone for 4 hours or more
Change your filter about 40% less than you should
Have the system tuned up periodically
Live in a home of average insulation and have average quality windows.
Let's agree to agree

If we can all agree that these relatively simple assumptions will form the basis for our comparison, let's move to annual operating costs as an outcome of SEER rating.
Fortunately, a lot of study has been done to tell us how many hours our air conditioner will operate based on our geographical area and using the assumptions listed above. To keep it simple, we'll use an average in Florida, or 2500 hours of operation hours annually.
Remember the number 2400 from above? That was the amount of watts our example 15 seer air conditioner consumed each hour it operated. Now that we know our number of operating hours annually (2500) we simply multiply these two numbers to get the total numbers of watts consumed on an annual basis.
Here's how it works:

  • 2400 hours of operation X 2500 watts consumed per hour = 6,000,0000????
Now hold on just a minute



I know what you're thinking - "you promised 'light' math and 6,000,000 is hardly light!" You are correct so let's simplify. If you have a copy of your power bill handy (I'll wait) you'll notice you are billed in increments they refer to as Kwh. This is simply a unit of 1000 watts, which is how they calculate your bill. We just need to convert our formula to theirs, which we will do by dividing the total watts consumed per hour (2500) by 1000, which equals 2.5
2500 divided by 1000 = 2.5
This new number (2.5) represents the number of watts your system consumes hourly, expressed in one thousand watt units, or in this case 2.5 of these thousand watt units (Kwh)
Now let's go back to our previous calculation:

  • 2400 hours of operation X 2.5 Kwh consumed per hour = (ta da) 6000 Kwh consumed by our example air conditioner annually.
(Don't worry - at the end I'll give you a simple review calculation that will have you getting annual operating costs faster than a cat's ear on a fly farm).
Quick review

Here's how we determine energy consumed (watts)
Divide Btu's produced by the stated SEER rating

  • Ex. 36,000 (3 tons) divided by 15 SEER = 2400 (watts)
Convert this to a figure used by your power company to calculate your bill

  • Ex.2400 watts divided by 1000 = 2.4 Kwh (2.4 one thousand watt units)
Determine the number of annual hours used by the operation of your air conditioner based on your geographical region.

  • Ex. Florida air conditioners operate an average of 2500 hours annually.
Multiply the number of Kwh your air conditioner consumes (2.4) each hour times the number of hours it operates annually (2500) to determine annual Kwh usage
2.4 Kwh X 2500 hours annually = 6000 Kwh annual consumption

Home at Last

Now all that is left is to convert these numbers to an annual cost in terms of something we all know a thing or two about - dollars. To do that lets look again at your power bill and determine the total cost per Kwh. (Hint - It will be between 10 - 12 cents around most areas of Florida). This is your cost for each Kwh your air conditioner (or any electronic appliance for that matter) consumes. Our studies show that FPL customers pay 11.5 cents per Kwh, including taxes, franchise fees, peak usage, feudalistic surcharges, (just kidding, Mr. Power meter reader) etc.
6000 Kwh consumed annually X 11.5 cents per Kwh = 690 or $690.00. (enter it in your calculator exactly as 6000 x .115 to avoid confusing decimals and zeros).
Light Speed review

36,000 Btu's divided by 15 Seer = 2400 2400 divided by 1000 = 2.4 Kwh consumed each hour
2500 hours of operation annually
2500 x 2.4 = 6000 Kwh consumed annually
6000 x 11.5 cents cost per Kwh = 690 or $690.00 annual cost of operation for a 3 ton, 15 SEER air conditioner.
Use this quick formula for each Seer option you are offered.

Let's fast forward to the annual operating cost for each of the following using the same 3 ton system:
13 SEER = $805.00
14 SEER $747.50
16 SEER = $632.50
23 SEER = $448.50
3000 SEER (Just kidding - but can you do it??) Get it right and we'll knock an additional $75.00 off your price of any complete system.
You'll notice when you divide 36,000 by 13 SEER you get 2769.2307. Don't be confused, just drop everything to the right of the decimal and round 2769 to 2800. You'll be very, very close.
Now What?

You now want to determine the one and only one SEER rating that is right for you. The answer is simple and here is what everyone leaves out: (signed non-disclosure required at this point - aw, what the heck)
Before we get to that let's establish what we are really trying to accomplish; which is the one (and only one) right SEER choice for you, or, which one will cost you the least to own in terms of purchase price and operating costs. (We assume that you are receiving a 10 years parts and labor warranty like offered by AC 4 Life on all systems at no additional charge so repairs will not be a factor)
Here is the most important variable you need to answer (not your salesman)
How long do you plan on owning and operating the system, or, how long will you live in the home the system is purchased for? This is the absolute key to your decision because the shorter your ownership period the greater your total cost will be due to a shorter amitorization time of the purchase price. (the fewer years you can spread the purchase price over before you no longer receive any operational benefits - genius, huh?). Unfortunately, from my years in the field this is almost never brought into the equation.
The time value of money is defined (by me) as the opportunity value of other investments missed because of your increased investment in a SEER rating higher than 13. Huh? Let's assume your system is broken and you need a new one. We know that 13 SEER is the "floor" pricing because, assuming you shopped around, 13 SEER will be the lowest price you are offered as it the federal minumum in terms of efficiency, hence it is the base, or floor pricing.
Incremental What?

Let's assume your "floor" pricing is the pricing of a 13 SEER system sold by AC 4 Life. (funny how their name keeps coming up isn't it?), that price being $4148. Let's assume AC 4 Life (or any contractor) offers 3 other SEER options with installed pricing as follows:
14 SEER - $4870
16 SEER - $5925
23SEER - $8177
We don't need to calculate the return on the 13 SEER because you have no incremental increase in investment because it is your "floor" pricing - everything else is compared to the 13 SEER to determine if the increased price will pay itself back to you. Remember, your system is broken and you need it replaced so 13 SEER is the choice everything else is compared to, hence the "incremental" increases are the price differences associated with any given (higher SEER) system as compared to the 13 SEER system... Just the difference, not the total price.



*Hint - Don't let your contractor "assume" your existing system is a 6 or 7 or 3 SEER and compare the new one to it. This is a trick of the trade that you want to avoid at all costs if you have to replace your air conditioner anyway.) Make all comparisons to a 13 SEER and don't let them play what I like to call the "Make up a SEER rating and play the Investment Shenanigans" game. No fun for you at all.
Let's see what we have using the pricing above.
Begin by comparing the 14 SEER to the base pricing of the 13 SEER
13 SEER - $4148
14 SEER - $4870



Difference between the two is $722.00. I asked you earlier about your expected ownership period and that is the next variable in our search for true value. Let's use 5 years because that is the number most quoted when homeowners are asked how many more years they plan to live in their current residence. (the fact that they usually stay longer is irrelevant to us).
That means that the additional (incremental) increase to purchase the 14 seer over the 13 seer is going to cost you $722.00. This is the base number you are trying to determine whether or not will be returned to you from the annual operating cost reduction achieved by the 1 point increase in SEER rating.
Let's look at the annual cost again to determine the savings achieved by the one point advantage the 14 SEER has over the 13 SEER
13 SEER = $805.00
14 SEER $747.50
16 SEER = $632.50
23 SEER = $448.50



The 14 SEER saves $805.00 - $747.50 = $57.50 over the 13 SEER each year. Multiply this annual savings times your expected years of occupancy and you have a grand total over our 5 year assumption that equals $287.50 (5 X $57.50=$287.50). This falls way short of the total incremental increase in floor pricing of $722.00, therefore based on SEER rating alone this would not be a good investment for only 5 years of ownership.
Be sure to factor in utility rebates and federal tax credits when calculating your return as these reduce your purchase price accordingly. There are federal and local utility enticements in place to make the higher SEER rating options more attractive to homeowners. Using AC 4 Life pricing, these credits will generally smooth out the pricing difference to some degree, but that assumption can't be made with all pricing you'll receive elsewhere. (There is another argument that can and will be made for the 14 seer, but for our purpose here, we are strictly confining SEER rating as your selection criteria. I have also ignored the opportunity cost of incremental price increases purposely*)



*Hint - Don't fall for another common trick whereby the 13 SEER option is prohibitively priced to make the higher SEER ratings seem like an outstanding value. The idea here is to make higher SEER ratings appear to provide lower incremental price increases, thereby unfairly enticing you to consider them. Avoid this shell game entirely by using the average of your 13 SEER estimates to establish your floor pricing, throwing out any pricing from shell game antics.



When you purchase a new air conditioning system for your home, you may be offered a bewildering maze of options, including higher SEER ratings. It is your contractor's job to provide you with clear, concise information that will allow you make a confident, informed choice about these options without resorting to the "trust me" principle.

Call us toll-free at 1-866-862-8922 if you are having trouble getting the answers you need and we will be happy to spend a few minutes with you, even if you are purchasing elsewhere.



* For you financial types out there, actuarial data and time value is ignored here primarily because most of us don't actually invest our savings, but instead spend it in a discretionary basis on items of depreciating value.

As a secondary issue, other ROI comparisons for various consumer products don't calculate these values either, serving to skew any comparison of products (of dissimilar nature) using unlike values of comparison.
 

NC Susan

Deceased
SEER = Seasonal Energy Efficiency Ratio.
It is used to measure the efficiency of the unit.
It is an average of the efficiency over the entire year for heat pumps.
Air conditioners are rated by EER Energy efficiency ratio.
Both are basically derived by dividing the capacity of the unit by the number of watts it averages at standard temperatures

For ease of math ...say you have a 2.5 ton a/c that gives a standard capacity of 30,000 BTUs and it uses 3000 watts to do the job.

30000/3000 = 10 so the EER of the unit is 10
30000/2307= 13 so the eer is 13
30000/2142= 14 so the EER is 14

13 vs 14 = 165 watts
At 10 cents per Kilowatt hour we have a whopping 1.65 cents per hour savings so if the system runs 18 hours per day we save 29 cents.

There is actually not a lot of actual difference between a 13 vs 14 ect when you do the actual math but the price differences can "curle your hair" . I live in Ga and most of the power companies that do the energy audits say that 13 is plenty efficient for the average homeowner when cost of equipment and maintainance are taken into consideration. You have to consider that 2 years ago anything 13 seer was considered "high end" and priced as premium over the standard 10 seer which the power companies said was plenty efficient for the average homeowner.

The major difference is that the 13 seer stuff is now considered standard and has few "bells and whistles" While the higher end stuff have lots of goodies added on to make you feel like you are getting something special ( and you may be) but its sort of the difference between the old Chevy and the sportier version. For reliability go low and slow .....for impressing the neighbors go high end and save about 10$ a month on your utility bills while you spend thousands more.
 

NC Susan

Deceased
http://www.empirecares.com/cost-for-5-ton-air-conditioner.html

How Much Does it Cost to Install a 5 Ton Air Conditioner in a Home?

You would think that this would be a straight forward question. How much does a 5 Ton air conditioner cost? This is not a straight forward question and I will explain to why a 5 Ton air conditioner is not always a 5 Ton air conditioner. There are a variety of options and code provisions that can either complicate or simplify a 5 Ton air conditioning system installation and the cost of a 5 Ton air conditioning system.
The Average 5 Ton Air Conditioner is Oversized

Performing a load calculation on your home will reveal the proper size of air conditioner hat is required to heat it. We typically see that the average air conditioner is ½ to 1 Ton too big for the home and it isn't cooling the home properly.
Do You Want to Pay for a 5 Ton Air Conditioner, or would you rather save and get something more comfortable?
Most of the air conditioning industry is stuck on selling boxes that heat and boxes that cool and the way to upgrade that 5 Ton air conditioner is install a new one that has a higher SEER and EER rating. The average air conditioning system here in Southern California is performing at about 67% capacity. That means that the biggest residential air conditioner, a 5 Ton system, is actually only delivering 3.5 Tons of air conditioning to the home.
In Order to Give You a Price on a 5 Ton Air Conditioning Change-Out We Need to Look at a Few Things
Here is a list of the things that will affect the price of a 5 Ton air conditioning system:

Is the thermostat a setback thermostat?
Is the line set the right size and length?
Is the air ducting in good shape?
Is the system R22 or R410a?
Are you replacing the evaporator coil?
Are you replacing the furnace?
Is it horizontal, up flow or counter flow?
Do you have the required clearances?
Is the electrical correct?
What kind of filtration is air required? Needed?
Are you the one pulling the permits?

Every new 5 Ton air conditioner is required to have a setback thermostat

The Uniform Mechanical Code requires that all replacement air conditioning system be outfitted with an energy saving setback thermostat. The average savings from the use of a setback thermostat on a 5 Ton air conditioner is about 10% of the total air conditioning portion of the electrical bill. That is pretty significant for just a thermostat change out. Types of thermostats vary radically and so do the prices. You can now even get a thermostat that you can phone from an app on your smart phone. I think you can see that a new thermostat is going to moderately affect the price of a new 5 Ton air conditioner.
Is the line set the right size and length for a 5 Ton air conditioner?

A line set that is too long or too small or has too many elbows in it will reduce the capacity of your 5 Ton air conditioner and can even starve the compressor for Freon. The line set must be sized correctly for the load in which it operates. A 5 Ton system requires a certain 5 Ton line set. Changing out the line set is going to affect the purchase price of a 5 Ton air conditioning system.
Is the air ducting in good shape?

No matter what efficiency your new 5 Ton air conditioner is or what price you paid, it will not perform well if the ducting is gaining a lot of heat from the attic or dumping the cooled air into the attic from leaks at the joints and punctures in the outer wall. Most systems require at least a little bit of ductwork remediation to make that 5 Ton air conditioner perform like a 5 Ton air conditioner. The price for a 5 Ton air conditioner can increase as more and more items like ductwork are added, but fixing these items will result in higher quality air, a more comfortable indoor air environment and your 5 Ton A/C will last longer because it will not run as often and it will stay cleaner.
Is the system R22 or R410a (Puron)?

A 5 Ton R22 system no longer exists, but replacing just the evaporator coil or just the condensing unit can still occur. If you are changing the existing 5 Ton R410a or Puron system out with a new R410a or Puron system it is less costly than switching a R22 system over to R410a or Puron. The majority of the time when changing from a 5 Ton R22 air conditioner to an R410a or Puron air conditioner the line set should be changed out. If the line set cannot be changed out due to location or price the line set must be cleaned out with a special chemical compound to remove the mineral oil clinging to the inside of the piping. This oil is not compatible with the new oils in R410a and Puron and will cause durability problems and loss of life in the new system. The type of Freon used affects the price of a new 5 Ton air conditioner.
Are you replacing the evaporator coil?

All new 5 Ton residential split systems require a thermostatic expansion valve on the indoor evaporator coil to regulate the flow of Freon through the system. The thermostatic expansion valve is by far a better and more efficient method to regulate the flow of Freon than the old fixed orifice design that was present on 10 SEER air conditioning systems. Failure to install a thermostatic expansion valve on the new 5 Ton air conditioning system will void the manufacturer's warranty. If a new 13 SEER air conditioner is installed on a 10 SEER evaporator coil there will be approximately a 40% drop in efficiency and BTU output. Installing a new 5 Ton air conditioner correctly the first will cost more money, but it will perform properly, cost less to operate, run fewer hours and last longer than 5 Ton change out only.
Are you replacing the furnace?

It is not usually necessary to replace the furnace to achieve the standard efficiency of 13 SEER. If you are looking for higher SEER ratings than 13 SEER for your new 5 Ton air conditioner the furnace will need to be upgraded to a variable speed.
Is the system horizontal, up flow or counter flow?

There is no steadfast rule on the cost of a 5 Ton horizontal air conditioning system installation versus a new 5 Ton up flow air conditioning installation or a counter flow. Most horizontal 2 ton air conditioning replacements require more work to install and therefore will be slight more costly to install than a 5 Ton up flow air conditioning system.
Do you have the required clearances?

You must have the minimum amount of clearances for safety and servicing as stated by the manufacturer, the National Electric Code, the Uniform Mechanical Code and your local building department. Obtaining the proper clearances can lead to unexpected price increases for your 5 Ton air conditioner installation. Obtaining a written in person estimate before committing to buy an air conditioner can minimize these surprises.
Is the Electrical up to code?

There are about 80,000 fires in the United each year and nearly all of them are from electrical short circuits, over loaded wires, under sized wires and poor electrical maintenance. The wiring to the new 5 Ton air conditioner must be sized correctly for that air conditioning system or it cannot be installed. The fuses must be the correct type and size. The attic, for attic installation, must have a light and be accessible for turning on and on from the crawl access hole. Pull chain light fixtures are no longer approved.
What kind of Air Filtration is needed or wanted?

Now is time to discuss the idea of adding air purification into your home. When the new 5 Ton air conditioning system is installed the system is comes together one piece at a time. Adding air purification at his time is by far the most effective time to add it. This air filtration add on will also affect the type, size an style of blower motor and blower assembly the furnace should be equipped with. Installing the air purification at the time of the air conditioning installation will save a substantial amount of money and lower the overall air conditioning price.
City, County and State Permits are a requirement

Failing to obtain the proper permits now, at the time of the 5 Ton air conditioning installation, can stop the sale of your home later and increase your costs significantly. Your contractor should be the one obtaining the permits and making sure that the system passes those inspections.
Phone Quotes for 5 Ton Air Conditioning Prices

After reading the above I sure hope that you understand that anyone giving you a quote for a new 5 Ton air conditioning system over the phone is merely laying down the starting price for a new system. Once they get to your home they will add in everything that is needed to install a new system properly. It is not uncommon for those low price loss leader ads that you can read for bargain basement air conditioning to be as much as three times or more the price stating in the ad.
Internet Purchases Beware

Buying an air conditioner online is now possible. Unfortunately this means that you have to obtain a qualified licensed individual to install the air conditioning system. If you do not, the entire warranty is voided by every manufacturer without exception. Many manufacturers are now point blank denying any warranty from any online purchase. Every manufacturer now voids the performance warranty on the R22 dry units installed on 10 SEER (pre 2007 units) evaporator coils. A typical 5 Ton 13 SEER dry R22 unit installed on a 10 SEER evaporator coil actually only performs at approximately 3 ½ Tons.

Call Today for a Free Quote for a New 5 Ton Air Conditioner Service 1-877-247-6426
 

NC Susan

Deceased
http://www.pkwadsworth.com/blog/bid/68779/What-Kind-Of-Lifespan-Can-I-Expect-From-A-Heat-Pump

What Kind Of Lifespan Can I Expect From A Heat Pump?
Posted by Paul Wadsworth on Wed, Oct 12, 2011


extending heat pump lifespan

The average life span of an air-source heat pump is about 15 years, but they can give out much sooner if they are neglected. Every unit’s life expectancy is going to be different depending on factors such as how much it is used and what its workload looks like. However, some systems manufactured within the past few years can last 20 years or more, assuming heat pump annual service is kept up with. Heat pump annual service has been proven to keep existing systems running efficiently and to ensure they last as long as possible.

A heat pump’s performance can be affected during installation, if the equipment isn’t sized proportionately to your home’s heating and cooling needs, and if proper installation techniques are not followed. Quality craftsmanship is an important but often overlooked factor in ensuring heat pump efficiency. In fact, the Department of Energy estimates that professional heat pump annual service can increase your system’s efficiency by up to 25 percent, while increasing its life span by up to 30 percent.

One factor that significantly affects a heat pump’s performance is adequate airflow. The typical system should provide about 400-500 cfm (cubic feet per minute) of conditioned airflow. If airflow falls much lower than 350 cfm, the heat pump’s performance and life expectancy will be affected.

Other factors that affect air flow and lifespan include:

The efficiency of your air ducts
How often your change your air filter (Check it monthly, to ensure dirt doesn’t build up in the filter and restrict airflow.)
Incorrect refrigerant levels
How well your evaporator and condenser coils are maintained. (They should be cleaned regularly, as dust can accumulate quickly in the tiny gaps between the fins on the coils.)
The efficient use your thermostat
How well the blower is maintained (The blower is responsible for generating the airflow and forcing it through your ducts.)
 

WFK

Senior Something
Anything that starts like this is not worth reading at all:

"Let's start by remembering that the most efficient air conditioner known to man is one that is in the "off" position. Period. The least efficient air conditioner is one that runs continually, never shuts off and never cools the home. Between these two extremes are many shades of gray that we will attempt to clarify here."

The classic definition of efficiency is: Power out divided by Power in. And zero divided by zero is what the above sentence suggest =1 (100%).

This OP is advertising, not at its best.
 

2x2

Inactive
Here's the part of OP post;;

* For you financial types out there, actuarial data and time value is ignored here primarily because most of us don't actually invest our savings, (( but instead spend it in a discretionary basis on items of depreciating value.))
 

tech020

Senior Member
Three years ago, I bought a new 95% furnace and 16 SEER a/c for about $4000 out of pocket after rebates. This year they wanted over $6000 for the same system for another house. They are capitalizing on the phase out of the R22 refrigerant. So to cover my needs, I bought a 30# cylinder of R22 at $275 for my licensed a/c guy to use when I replace my old outside unit with a new heat pump for about $1200 plus his labor of about $250. I pay for the material and equipment at wholesale cost and he does the magic with the refrigerant gas! The contractors are all charging big money ($100 per pound) for R22 to force you into upgrading to the R410 systems. In another 5-6 years, they will change to something newer and keep the shell game going. A/C equipment that used to last 15-25 years will now only last for 8-10 years.
 

NC Susan

Deceased
there seems to be about a two thousand dollar difference in the systems Seer 13 vs Seer 18
also, if the lifespan is 15 to 18 years, then what difference is the extra 2 grand going to save?
and 25% of existing systems are more than 30 years old......

Did also learn that there are only 3 manufacturers now of blowers/motors and all circuit cards are manufactured in Mexico and imported..........

So......... repair vs replace..... if repair is half the cost of a new system, then its going to have to be a new system as there would be no warranties on repair.......
 

NC Susan

Deceased
Three years ago, I bought a new 95% furnace and 16 SEER a/c for about $4000 out of pocket after rebates. .........


what is a 95% furnace ?
and the tax incentives for any new units expired 30 December 2013. But you maybe still able to claim the deductions
 

West

Senior
In the forth post, it's touched on...
How well your evaporator and condenser coils are maintained. (They should be cleaned regularly, as dust can accumulate quickly in the tiny gaps between the fins on the coils.)
And this should be highlighted and highly recommended.

I'll expand on that and add some other UBIs that are perhaps already mentioned but I just scanned the pieces.

Many Ac guys/contractors will do a tune up special for $69.99 or some alike so called deal. They may clean the easy to get too condenser and change your filter and perhaps add a pound of refrigerant. But I tell you all if a AC guy doesn't inspect your duct work, inspect and clean if needed both coils especially the evaporator coil and blower to be sure of proper air flow before they put their gages on the system then they are not doing you a service. With in just a few years or less if one has rug rats, dogs, etc in side the house and even if you regularly change your filters I can almost guaranty you that your evaporator coils hidden inside a box either under or on top of the furnace or hidden in the big box package units needs to be cleaned. And this takes time, cleaning the squirrel cage (indoor blower) alone can take half a hour or more and sometimes the evap coil needs to be pulled to be cleaned taking another hour or three. A typical good service that usually needs to be done at the vary least every five years depending on use and household dirt makers can cost on the average of $300 and up. I have to service rent houses and they need to be deep cleaned every year typically. Where as the couple with no kids and a clean house may only need the evap and blower cleaned every five to ten years, but the condenser should be cleaned every spring.

Right now R22 is being sold in our AO for around $50 a pound, however if a system is low on refrigerant it is because there is a leak AC do not use up refrigerant (aka freon). Have your AC guy fix the leak R22 is not getting cheaper.

R410 is a blend of refrigerants, so when you have a leak the blends in the refrigerant R410 have different size molecules, so what happens is a leak will offset the design efficiency of said system because the blend will be bastardized by releasing the smallest blends first threw even a micro leak, so with R410 you should not just add a pound of refrigerant every year, the leak has to be found and or fixed. There is leak stop additives one can use now days for small and micro leaks.

Get a good installer/contractor, slightly oversize the duct work, A good rule of thumb is for every ton of air flow have 144 square inches of free air flow threw a filter grill on return air sides. Duct sizes (both supply air and return) should be 10" round steel duct for every ton of air, 12" round for flexible duct per ton, and no duct runs much over 40 feet long, if longer increase the duct size. There are many different sizes of ducts, use the above rules of thumb to get square inch standards and do the math.

IMHO, stick with a R22 13 seer system, install it right and maintenance it right and you should never need to add refrigerant and spend the money on a more efficient home while being conservative with the temperature settings.
 

Orion Commander

Veteran Member
I bought a high efficiency furnace and AC in 1990. Three years ago the compressor failed. I am told to replace the AC I also have to replace the furnace as the old on is one inch too tall. So instead of $4000 they want $7500. We have learned to sweat. I have a 4 ton and I am told I need to down size to a 3 ton. But doing the floor area to ton I still get at least 3.5 if not 4 ton. I think contractors are nuts.

The guy who came to replace my water heater this year also told me to keep my old furnace going as long as possible as the new one have circuitry that demands servicing twice a year and will not run at all until it gets what it wants.
 

Millwright

Knuckle Dragger
_______________
A lot of contractors will try and sell you a new unit whether you need it or not.

Yes, there are times that a total change out is the best way to go.

If you have been told that "R-22 units are not being made anymore", this isn't exactly true. There are "dry" condensing units available that have no Freon in them and they can be used for r-22 systems, you can still get coils that work with r-22 also.

There are also r-22 "drop-in" refrigerants like R-421a that function at about the same pressures as 22 for about $3.00/lb as apposed to $50/lb....and you say "why are we being forced into the new refrigerants if there is an acceptable substitute for r-22?"

I think the whole r-410a deal was a moneymaking scam foisted on the American public by the A/C industry and its lobbyist, there is a LOT more money to be made changing out whole systems rather than just replacing a condenser or a coil when they go south.
 

West

Senior
A lot of contractors will try and sell you a new unit whether you need it or not.

Yes, there are times that a total change out is the best way to go.

If you have been told that "R-22 units are not being made anymore", this isn't exactly true. There are "dry" condensing units available that have no Freon in them and they can be used for r-22 systems, you can still get coils that work with r-22 also.

There are also r-22 "drop-in" refrigerants like R-421a that function at about the same pressures as 22 for about $3.00/lb as apposed to $50/lb....and you say "why are we being forced into the new refrigerants if there is an acceptable substitute for r-22?"

I think the whole r-410a deal was a moneymaking scam foisted on the American public by the A/C industry and its lobbyist, there is a LOT more money to be made changing out whole systems rather than just replacing a condenser or a coil when they go south.

IIRC, The r410a deal is a Carrier product first labelled as PURON a HCFC free, blend of refrigerants, and first tested and sold to environmentally minded customers in the 1990s on the West coast. And they paid for it, I sold many systems.

The money making scam is/was this stuff....

1992 The UN Conference on the Environment and Development is held in Rio de Janeiro. It results in the Framework Convention on Climate Change ("FCCC" or "UNFCCC") among other agreements.

1995 Parties to the UNFCCC meet in Berlin (the 1st Conference of Parties (COP) to the UNFCCC) to outline specific targets on emissions.

1997 In December the parties conclude the Kyoto Protocol in Kyoto, Japan, in which they agree to the broad outlines of emissions targets.

2002 Russia and Canada ratify the Kyoto Protocol to the UNFCCC bringing the treaty into effect on 16 February 2005.
From ...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyoto_Protocol

There is no solid proof that HCFCs released from the earth surface can or does hurt our Ozone layers. There is however some solid proof that high flying air craft and space shots do though so they take it out on the consumer of ACs/lowtemp/heatpumps.

So nothing that you don't most likely already know, but IMHO, the environmental HCFC ban wagon and their NWO lobbyist are to be blamed first for the moneymaking scam they have set the foundation for. Our industry "HVAC" has a lot of lazy and greedy individuals in it but no worse than any other trades.
 
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