Food The small animal livestock thread for prepping (chickens, rabbits, barn cats, ratting dogs etc)

[Melodi]

Hi - the long thread drift (which I am fine with) on keeping rabbits under the Fodder crises/Maunder Minimum thread on the Main Page got me looking and I didn't see a recent thread on small livestock and farm animals (including barn cats, sheepdogs, and other not food critters) so I thought I'd start one and see how it goes.

If it gets busy we can start individual threads for certain animals like rabbits or barn cats, but I thought to start simple and see if we can get this going.

Anyone who posted information on the main thread is encouraged to either copy and paste or post new versions on topics like fodder for rabbits etc.

Larger critters like goats, sheep, cattle, horses etc can be topics too; but a lot of people that don't have room for them (or zoning laws that prevent them) can have the smaller livestock (pigeons were really popular in Belfast during The Troubles, also quail and kept in urban apartment complexes on the roof).

Also encouraged are links to build your own pages for hutches, pens, sheds etc; watering hacks, etc, etc.

OK let her rip!

I'll be back later to add some things when I get a few moments to do so

Melodi

 

[Martinhouse]

Thanks for this thread, Melodi. I'm afraid I'll have more questions than answers, but Ill do my best to contribute.

After Dennis posted about the sudden large increase in the price of milk, I've decide that the rest of my spare money for this month should probably go for butter and cheese.

I'm also trying to decide what to do about fruit. I suspect the crops of those will be terrible this year and I need to do something about it while I still can. I hate to can things that may not get used in one year, ever since I found out what's been done to canning lids, so now I'm wondering if I should start buying fruit and dehydrating it, or just buying bottled juices. I know that the bottled stuff doesn't last as long as it used to, now that nothing is in glass anymore, but I'm wondering if I wrap each plastic container of juice in good foil, would it last longer?

 

[Melodi]

I LOVE the Excaliber dehydrator I got on sale last year, trust me the ones that don't have temperature controls (like Wallmart's) just don't make very good food but the brands that have temperature controls do.

I still do canning, I've got Tatler lid's for back up as the European Canning jars have the same neck sizes as the US ones (probably from the same factory in China) I have only one of two home-use Pressure canners in Ireland (the other is also owned by an ex-pat) but I think including home canning in the mix is a good idea; but dehydrating takes less space and does different things.

Questions are great, hopefully someone will have an answer!

 

[Martinhouse]

The Walmart dehydrators are horrible. A tray of sliced tomatoes molded on one side and scorched on the other. I returned it and got my money back.

I didn't like my Excalibur, it wasn't right for my needs, but I've used the Nesco American Harvesters for a long time now, and am totally pleased with them. They do have temp controls. I can stack the trays twelve high for lightweight drying like leaves of kale, broccoli, etc. I'm thinking about getting lots of extra Ziploc bags and dehydrating leafy things for winter rabbit feed. They could probably be stored in big plastic totes, out in my porch. With my cat out there, I need never worry that rodents might chew into the totes.

 

[mecoastie]

The Walmart dehydrators are horrible. A tray of sliced tomatoes molded on one side and scorched on the other. I returned it and got my money back.

I didn't like my Excalibur, it wasn't right for my needs, but I've used the Nesco American Harvesters for a long time now, and am totally pleased with them. They do have temp controls. I can stack the trays twelve high for lightweight drying like leaves of kale, broccoli, etc. I'm thinking about getting lots of extra Ziploc bags and dehydrating leafy things for winter rabbit feed. They could probably be stored in big plastic totes, out in my porch. With my cat out there, I need never worry that rodents might chew into the totes.

Can you just make hay? Seems like a lot of work to use a dehydrator for such a small amount of feed.

I picked up some new corn to try for chicken feed. Wapsie valley. It is a sent corn and has better yields than the Calais Flint we have. That, sunflower seeds and acorns will be our experimental ration this year along with mangel beets.

The other challenge for us is that we can no longer free range. We have a pair of hawks that has moved in so the birds stay in the enclosed run.

 

[Handyman]

I'm thinking about getting lots of extra Ziploc bags and dehydrating leafy things for winter rabbit feed.

why not buy a small square bale of alfalfa from a feed store, for your rabbits,
for premium alfalfa the radio on the hay report, said there were a$7 to $10, a bale, and many times alfala can be a 50 to 80 pound bale, and the hay is dry before baling,

and if hay is not available alfalfa pellets should be able to be had, alfalfa hay pressed in ot pellets,

Premium Western Forage Premium Alfalfa/Timothy Pellets, 40 lb. Bag
Product price$12.99 at tractor supply, https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/p...MI0LX7gu-82gIVBrXACh0KMQdAEAAYAyAAEgJV3fD_BwE

 

[Martinhouse]

In July and August, it gets hotter than the hinges of Hades in my greenhouse and I plan to do some screen drying there, possibly under a small shade cloth.

I can also do the same outdoors.....I have LOTS of screens! Some things can be hung in small bundles to dry, too. Any greens done in the dehydrator would like be more like a tidbit of treat to go along with the more boring dried weed hay, if that's the right way to describe it.

I also have several comfrey plants and their leaves are easy to hang in small bunches for drying.

I would not be feeding a lot of rabbits during winter, at mostl a couple of breeding pairs. I think I could can rabbit meat or dehydrate it over the woodstove once winter set in. Either way, it could be used for pet food, barter or chicken protein supplement, and I would not breed rabbits again until spring growth was started again.

 

[Martinhouse]

Handyman, I'm talking about when the weather prevents there being anything like that to buy. I won't buy it when I don't need it, because it tends to go moldy after a while. I'd lose a lot of it to mold if I was feeding only two or four rabbits, plus I'd still want to give them treats of the other things.

Alfalfa isn't grown in my area and I've been told any alfalfa one finds here is usually shipped in from Colorado, is very expensive, and generally already spoken for in advance. If crop problems continue, I won't want to count on being able to buy anything at all for my chickens and rabbits.

 

[Melodi]

We get big bags of rolled (dried out) barley from the feed shop; chickens eat it, rabbits can eat it and horses can eat it - (when we were snowed in I added some old carrots, molasses, and boiling water to make horse mash with a small amount of oatmeal).

You might look into seeing how long is store for, over here at least it is dirt cheap and a lot easier than drying hay in a dehydrator.

 

[Martinhouse]

Barley probably isn't real cheap here as it isn't grown here, but I'll ask at the feed store next time I go there.

I would probably sun dry hay and use the dehydrator for the "treat" greens like kale, violets, and maybe even the plantain and clover. If I can get alfalfa to grow in my containers, I'd probably have to sun dry that, too.

This thread and the one on Main about the GSM have already taught me a lot and also reminded me of things that had faded to the back of my mind.

I wish I could grow pumpkins and squash for winter chicken food, but while I can keep ahead of the squash bugs by trellising the vines and hand picking bugs and eggs, that doesn't work for the vine borer moth, so I've had to give up on growing them. I like to buy pumpkins right after Halloween, but even then, they aren't cheap any more. That's why I'm switching to sweet potatoes at least until it gets too cold to grow them here.

 

[summerthyme]

Martinhouse... unless your containers are bottomless and over deep, well drained soil, I wouldn't try growing alfalfa. Alfalfa is a wonderful forage crop, but it has very deep roots.. 6 feet and deeper. It requires soil of around neutral pH (7.0) and it must be well drained. Clover is a lot less picky. Also, something like birdsfoot trefoil may be better, and if left uncut at least once in the growing season, will reseed itself.

While alfalfa hay can test high in protein when cut at pre-bloom, so can many weeds. Dandelion greens actually out test many hay crops. One advantage to alfalfa is, as a legume, it puts nitrogen into the soil. But birdsfoot treefoil, as well as beans and peas (to be harvested young, before they start to set seed) do as well.

Summerthyme

 

[Martinhouse]

Summer, thanks for that information. I have plenty of clover that I can encourage to grow more abundantly without those restrictions. And I think the clover could better take the heat that I suspect Arkansas will still see in the summers of a GSM.

I'm think I could also buy whole wheat and maybe other grains, which could be more easily stored than hay, and then sprout it for both rabbits and chickens. I doubt I'll ever have more than a dozen hens and three or four mature rabbits.

I've grown wheat before, as volunteer from some very nice straw I got one year. I could do this with wheat on purpose and get a type that I could save seeds for and do it all by hand for my few animals. I've grown the wheat in my half barrel containers and it did fine. The oats did not, but I think it was too hot for it. Wonder if I could grow a few oats in my greenhouse over the winter?

 

[summerthyme]

Hubby also mentioned that wheat grass (and rye and oats), cut BEFORE "boot" state (if you slice open a stalk lengthwise, you can see the immature grain head "hiding" in the stem of the plant... that's "boot") tests amazingly high in protein. We grew winter wheat for the earliest pasture for our dairy cattle, and one test came back at 27% crude protein (on a dry matter basis... so figure 26% if dried down to the required 10% moisture for it to keep as hay), and the net energy (calories) was higher than corn silage. I still remember the astonishment on our nutritionists face when he saw the results... and he was even more shocked when it proved to be true in milk production... it wasn't an inaccurate "paper" result.

Also, small grains cut early will regrow 2-3 times unless it gets very hot. And you could cut them twice and then let them grow and get some grain from them, although it would be significantly smaller of a crop than you'd have gotten if you'd never cut them in the first place.

Oats are an early spring crop... in normal years, they'd be getting ready to plant them around here in southwestern NY. They don't like heat, and generally are ripe and ready to harvest shortly after the 4th of July here. If we get cooler summers along with this weather pattern, they likely will do much better than corn, but they're very susceptible to lodging and destruction from heavy thunderstorms. For that matter, so are wheat and rye.

Winter wheat and rye tolerate quite cold winters, as long as there is plenty of snow cover... in fact, it's better for them to have a consistently cold, snowy winter rather than an open one with lots of "freeze-thaw" cycles. The latter breaks the roots off and kills the plants.

Summerthyme

 

[Martinhouse]

Is lodging when the stalks get blown over by wind or pounded down by heavy rain?

 

[naturallysweet]

Chickens can be fed on cooked potatoes, kale, turnips and turnip greens, etc. Without feeding grain. You may need to know that as grain prices rise as crops fail.

 

[summerthyme]

Is lodging when the stalks get blown over by wind or pounded down by heavy rain?

Yes..

Summerthyme

 

[Melodi]

Chickens can be fed on cooked potatoes, kale, turnips and turnip greens, etc. Without feeding grain. You may need to know that as grain prices rise as crops fail.

One year we fed ours mostly cheap boiled potatoes, along with the barley because ALL the chicken feed at that time was GMO (most people didn't know that); now we can get (or order in) organic layer pellets that we use in Season to add to the hen's diet (we just got a bag this past week, I suspect it was left over from last Fall).

But we only have a few chickens so it is affordable for us to do this, the chickens also get what doesn't get used from the organic vegetable box and shop produce like leftover squash, pumpkins, greens, apples, etc - we don't feed them citrus, onions or garlic - geese will sometimes eat those things but chickens won'.

 

[naturallysweet]

One year we fed ours mostly cheap boiled potatoes, along with the barley because ALL the chicken feed at that time was GMO (most people didn't know that); now we can get (or order in) organic layer pellets that we use in Season to add to the hen's diet (we just got a bag this past week, I suspect it was left over from last Fall).

But we only have a few chickens so it is affordable for us to do this, the chickens also get what doesn't get used from the organic vegetable box and shop produce like leftover squash, pumpkins, greens, apples, etc - we don't feed them citrus, onions or garlic - geese will sometimes eat those things but chickens won'.

I get waste onions for my cattle for free. I assure you, chickens will happily eat onions. They like it when the cattle step on them first. They look like worms then and they gobbled them up.

 

[Melodi]

I get waste onions for my cattle for free. I assure you, chickens will happily eat onions. They like it when the cattle step on them first. They look like worms then and they gobbled them up.

Yes, I should have mentioned the CAN eat onions (and I don't fuss things like the leftover stew with onions in it) but I have heard through the grapevine (and in my chicken keeping books) that the eggs can end up tasting of onion which I really don't fancy much.

Good to know about in a pinch, but so far I haven't needed to do that - now green onions that I have given them in moderation and they love those.

 

[kyrsyan]

Thanks for this thread, Melodi. I'm afraid I'll have more questions than answers, but Ill do my best to contribute.

After Dennis posted about the sudden large increase in the price of milk, I've decide that the rest of my spare money for this month should probably go for butter and cheese.

I'm also trying to decide what to do about fruit. I suspect the crops of those will be terrible this year and I need to do something about it while I still can. I hate to can things that may not get used in one year, ever since I found out what's been done to canning lids, so now I'm wondering if I should start buying fruit and dehydrating it, or just buying bottled juices. I know that the bottled stuff doesn't last as long as it used to, now that nothing is in glass anymore, but I'm wondering if I wrap each plastic container of juice in good foil, would it last longer?

I don't have problems with Golden Harvest lids lasting for years. But there is a store in PA called Dutchman's that sells commercial heavy duty canning flats. They are not online. You have to call to order. I will see if I can get the info today.
I do canning and dehydrating. Both are good. I wish I could afford a freeze drier.

 

[kyrsyan]

I've been playing, mentally, with ideas for an outdoor dehydrator for feed. So far I've gotten as far as hanging, two foot by two foot by about 7 foot to hang from the garage. The lower 3 feet with clear solar glass/plexiglass. A solar fan at the top to keep heated air moving through and prevent humidity from being a problem. And then screen shelves in the section between. That section being would with no solar exposure. Since my yard is a wonderful edible weed mix, I would be able to put up a lot of bonus feed during the summer if I kept if going every day.

 

[Handyman]

for green stuff consider sprouting, some places use barley or other grains and sprout it for chickens,

https://www.attainable-sustainable.net/sprouting-grains-fodder/

 

[Martinhouse]

I've been trying to find Golden Harvest lids lately, but they seem to always run out before the end of summer and don't get more in until closer to summer each year.

I don't care for the vertical shelved drying units because it seems that if it isn't very windy outside, the moisture from the bottom shelves has to go through all the layers of food above them and would slow down the drying. I've made double screen trays that can be used in sun or shade and wind can't blow off drying greens, nor can flies and other things get on whatever I'm drying. They take up more space than vertical dryers, but I think they may be faster. Just be sure they aren't under branches or rafters that birds sit on!

Sprouting would be good for chickens and probably rabbits, too, but it requires purchasing large amounts of seed that isn't treated for planting. And if you can produce your own seed, then you probably wouldn't be having winter feed problems in the first place.

 

[kyrsyan]

I've been trying to find Golden Harvest lids lately, but they seem to always run out before the end of summer and don't get more in until closer to summer each year.

I don't care for the vertical shelved drying units because it seems that if it isn't very windy outside, the moisture from the bottom shelves has to go through all the layers of food above them and would slow down the drying. I've made double screen trays that can be used in sun or shade and wind can't blow off drying greens, nor can flies and other things get on whatever I'm drying. They take up more space than vertical dryers, but I think they may be faster. Just be sure they aren't under branches or rafters that birds sit on!

Sprouting would be good for chickens and probably rabbits, too, but it requires purchasing large amounts of seed that isn't treated for planting. And if you can produce your own seed, then you probably wouldn't be having winter feed problems in the first place.

I buy Golden Harvest by the flat from Dollar General or Freds as soon as they come in for the season. The local Freds used to put them on layaway for me but they closed last year so I'll just have to save upfront for the flat. This year I need a flat of wide mouth. It typically takes me 2 years or so to empty a flat. The info for Dutchman's is: Dutchman's Store 103 Division St, Cantril, Iowa. You will have to call for prices they sell them by the sleeve. The phone number is 319 - 397 - 2322. Last year the price was roughly $50/sleeve. 348 regular, 288 wide mouth to a sleeve. (And yes I was wrong about the state.) Per the reviews of the folks I know that have purchased from them, they are good heavy duty flats. If I ever stop being able to get Golden Harvest, I will start ordering from them.

I don't like vertical drying shelves for that same reason which is why the plan includes a solar powered fan. That will keep the air moving swift enough that air, and moisture, will be drawn up and out. Here humidity is a real problem so I didn't want to depend solely on natural convection to move the air. And I didn't want the fan fighting to push air up and through so the plan is for it to be at the top. But if it's not enough, then I would put one top and one bottom.

I used to save seed. You would be amazed by how much seed even one plant can produce. Heck, even just one fruit or vegetable. I used to trade extra seed with other folks all the time because if you save, you generally end up with way more than you want to grow the next season. And if you want to be sure of good seed variation you save from multiple plants and fruits/veggies. Hence the overload of seed. Since I grow organic, I know my seed is safe for sprouting. And if you are trading, you can specify organic.

 

[BenIan]

my chickens love Hairy Vetch...I plant it as a cover crop, cut the tops when I'm ready to plan and leave the roots in the ground to rot...the hens seem to love the leaves, it's easy to grow here (zone 8) and produces abundant amounts of biomass

 

[mecoastie]

Here is a good article on pollarding trees to use as animal fodder. It used to be fairly common in the UK. Don't know about the US.

https://beeflambnz.com/knowledge-hub/PDF/poplars-and-willows-fodder

 

[Old Gray Mare]

Here is a good article on pollarding trees to use as animal fodder. It used to be fairly common in the UK. Don't know about the US.

https://beeflambnz.com/knowledge-hub/PDF/poplars-and-willows-fodder

Some tree leaves like wilted cherry can be deadly to livestock. They can eat them fresh but not wilted.

 

[Seeker22]

The Walmart dehydrators are horrible. A tray of sliced tomatoes molded on one side and scorched on the other. I returned it and got my money back.

I didn't like my Excalibur, it wasn't right for my needs, but I've used the Nesco American Harvesters for a long time now, and am totally pleased with them. They do have temp controls. I can stack the trays twelve high for lightweight drying like leaves of kale, broccoli, etc. I'm thinking about getting lots of extra Ziploc bags and dehydrating leafy things for winter rabbit feed. They could probably be stored in big plastic totes, out in my porch. With my cat out there, I need never worry that rodents might chew into the totes.

My Rabbits are enjoying the fresh Comfrey this year. Would they accept it dried? How do I feed the dry stuff without most of it falling through the cage- mix it with something else?

 

[Seeker22]

Chickens can be fed on cooked potatoes, kale, turnips and turnip greens, etc. Without feeding grain. You may need to know that as grain prices rise as crops fail.

I use Bunny Berries (Rabbit Manure) and Alfalfa hay from the Rabbit hutches to mulch my garden. I haven't weeded in years. If a weed pops up in my garden space, the little sucker is doomed. Last year, I put in Turnips and at Fall harvest, they were huge. My chooks and rabbits just went nuts over the leaves and I dried the shredded Turnips in the Excalibur.

Grain prices are bound to rise. I'd best get ahead of it before it is a major money drain.

 

[Illini Warrior]

I buy Golden Harvest by the flat from Dollar General or Freds as soon as they come in for the season. The local Freds used to put them on layaway for me but they closed last year so I'll just have to save upfront for the flat. This year I need a flat of wide mouth. It typically takes me 2 years or so to empty a flat. The info for Dutchman's is: Dutchman's Store 103 Division St, Cantril, Iowa. You will have to call for prices they sell them by the sleeve. The phone number is 319 - 397 - 2322. Last year the price was roughly $50/sleeve. 348 regular, 288 wide mouth to a sleeve. (And yes I was wrong about the state.) Per the reviews of the folks I know that have purchased from them, they are good heavy duty flats. If I ever stop being able to get Golden Harvest, I will start ordering from them.

I don't like vertical drying shelves for that same reason which is why the plan includes a solar powered fan. That will keep the air moving swift enough that air, and moisture, will be drawn up and out. Here humidity is a real problem so I didn't want to depend solely on natural convection to move the air. And I didn't want the fan fighting to push air up and through so the plan is for it to be at the top. But if it's not enough, then I would put one top and one bottom.

I used to save seed. You would be amazed by how much seed even one plant can produce. Heck, even just one fruit or vegetable. I used to trade extra seed with other folks all the time because if you save, you generally end up with way more than you want to grow the next season. And if you want to be sure of good seed variation you save from multiple plants and fruits/veggies. Hence the overload of seed. Since I grow organic, I know my seed is safe for sprouting. And if you are trading, you can specify organic.

https://www.fillmorecontainer.com/closures/2-piece-lids.html >>>> chek these guys out for their bulk lid pricing