The Pump On Our Well Went Out....

[jae]

Of course, it's the weekend and no one will come out...

Discovered, in the middle of the night, after being out checking on a sick horse...that the water didn't work. I just wanted to wash my hands. Had to go find a gallon and have gone through about 6 gallons since last night. It isn't even noon yet.

I made breakfast and had to wash dishes....hands, sponge baths, teeth brushed, and flushing. It goes really fast... (The Great Dane drinks a lot, too.)

The only good thing I can think of...is that this "might" open my DH's eyes. He is so determined that nothing will ever change his way of life here in the USA. His idea is that if you don't think about it...it will never happen, I guess.

I do the best I can, to put food aside, and other necessary items...but it would be so much easier with some help from the other person in the house. (He who controls all the $...) I would love some kind of hand pump, along with the regular one....or to have some barrels of water. He just thinks that is all crazy....

Guess I'm just posting this, to remind everyone how much water you can use, when you are going through one gallon containers.....(More than you expect to!)

And to vent about a spouse that doesn't, and doesnt' "want to" get it. (He also thinks the bird flu is nothing to worry about.) What can you do?

Made me wonder how I'm going to water 9 horses if the shtf, too...

 

[horse and hammer]

When talking to Horse about our horses, I brought up these same topics.

How are we going to water the horses without electricity? Go to the nearest creek and haul back water every 12 hours or a Generator?

How are we going to care for the horses in the winter if the electricity went out? Get a motel room possibly 50 miles away or get a Wood Stove and wood?

In other words I tried to show him it would be easier to plan ahead for possible problems now so he would not have more work later.

This worked for him. I just recently talked to him about washing clothes by hand which he would have to help with because it is alot of work. His solution was to buy me a 15kw generator for my birthday. Easier for him than washing clothes.

 

[CarolynA]

The easiest sollution, if you have the room, is to get one of those large water storage tanks. I have a 2,000 gallon one that isn't even hooked up to the well or the house yet. I fill it with a hose. It's been wonderful for all the power outages & well problems I've had. You can always get buckets of water for the animals, washing, & flushing. I think they come in sizes as small as 250 gallons. An alternative would be to get a few 55 gallon drums and keep them full. Mine is on a hill above the house and also serves as fire fighting backup in case the power goes out during a fire. It has a hookup for the fire dept.

 

[diamonds]

Jae maybe this will show him that everyone has to think ahead.

 

[twincougars]

First, check to make sure the fuse or circuit breaker isn't blown for the pump.

It may not be the pump that is the problem. It could be the pressure relay on your pressure tank that controls the pump. It's usually a little grey plastic box that may have a reset button or lever on it. What happens is when the water pressure gets low (typically 40psi), the relay/switch turns the pump on until the pressure gets to the right level (typically 60psi), and then the pump shuts off. However, if there is a power failure (our your well runs dry) and you use water to the point where the pressure drops BELOW the 40psi, and then your power comes back on, the pump won't start and you need to reset the relay by either pushing in the lever/button that is on the case of some relays, or, very carefully whearing insulating gloves to be safe (220 volts!!), oben the relay cover and use a insulated object (wooden stick OK) to push in the relay armature (the movable plate connected to the relay electrical contacts) toward the coil. The contacts should spark. Hold the relay closed with the stick (i.e., keep the contacts closed) while watching the pressure guage until the pressure gets above the minimum trip point (-probably around 40psi), at which point the relay should stay closed on its own until the max pressure (60psi?) is reached. Then close up the relay case and you are done.

 

[jae]

Thanks guys....

I really appreciate the input...and also just having somewhere to vent. LOL

Talking to him would be great....if he would listen...but I don't think that is an option.

I did get him to read twincougar's post and he said it was worth a try. So thank you for that information, twincougars. Sure would be nice to find an inexpensive solution....

 

[Wargus]

I think this brings up a good question. What can you do if the SHTF and there is no electricity to run your pump ? Can a person retrofit a pump / well to work without electricity ? Info would be appreciated.

 

[Airborne Falcon]

I've had to change out a couple of pumps in my time. We have this sandy soil that does a number on a pump - so we always use solid stainless ones with the best seals and gears these days. We keep an extra pump for each well. Not too worried about the power loss possibility - 'cause we've got a couple of redudent systems. But the loss of a pump in this area without a replacement would be truly bad. Our wells are deep and this ground is sanding and arid if you don't go deep.

Jae, what you really made a case for is an extra pump IMHO.

Russ

 

[PCViking]

Back-up, or in case TSHTF & ITEOTWAWKI

This is very timely for DW and I... We recently relocated to the country from the city, where it was all city water and city sewer, etc.

Our home has an submersible (110V) well pump, DW wants me to get an handpump and put that into the same hole... I bought an antique style garden hand pump and plan on digging a hole at a lower part of our property. I just figure, it'll be there to use for gardening purposes, where it's a hassle to bring the hose... and aesthetic value.

 

[marsh]

I have a side by side PVC pump in my well. It is over 120 feet deep and the other kind won't work that deep. It pumps, but I would hate to try and irrigate a garden with it. I also have a bucket type thing I can lower down the casing, but would have to pull the pump for that.

 

[jae]

DH went out and checked the pressure switch (thanks again)....and the water came back on. However, there is barely any pressure, so something is still wrong with the system. We will have someone come out and take a look tomorrow.

I think having a secondary pump is definately a good idea. I don't know if I could talk him into something like that...but I'll show him the suggestion.

Out of the blue.....he came up with, "Maybe having a second well put in, with both a hand pump and electricity, would be a good idea." I don't know if that's possible....but I'm still in shock, that he would even consider it.

Did H*ll freeze over and I didn't hear about it?

BTW, I remember someone... not very long ago, posting photos of a system they had built on their well. It was a something that could switch over to a hand pump. Looked like a great idea...and I wish that I had copied it, so I could show DH now. Anyone remember who posted that?

This has been a good thing...even though it's annoying. Definately shows a hole in the preps. We have a genny...but only limited amounts of fuel to run it. Wouldn't be a good long term solution.

We now have ten new cases of water....3 gallons each, to put out in the barn. We have lots of bottled water...but these will be for "other-than-drinking-water."

I'm wondering how difficult it would be to put in a stock pond? Not sure how much that would cost, but we hit water at about 10 feet or so...sometimes less.

 

[PCViking]

DH went out and checked the pressure switch (thanks again)....and the water came back on. However, there is barely any pressure, so something is still wrong with the system. We will have someone come out and take a look tomorrow.

I think having a secondary pump is definately a good idea. I don't know if I could talk him into something like that...but I'll show him the suggestion.

Out of the blue.....he came up with, "Maybe having a second well put in, with both a hand pump and electricity, would be a good idea." I don't know if that's possible....but I'm still in shock, that he would even consider it.

Did H*ll freeze over and I didn't hear about it?

BTW, I remember someone... not very long ago, posting photos of a system they had built on their well. It was a something that could switch over to a hand pump. Looked like a great idea...and I wish that I had copied it, so I could show DH now. Anyone remember who posted that?

This has been a good thing...even though it's annoying. Definately shows a hole in the preps. We have a genny...but only limited amounts of fuel to run it. Wouldn't be a good long term solution.

We now have ten new cases of water....3 gallons each, to put out in the barn. We have lots of bottled water...but these will be for "other-than-drinking-water."

I'm wondering how difficult it would be to put in a stock pond? Not sure how much that would cost, but we hit water at about 10 feet or so...sometimes less.

When is the last time you checked the filter? A clogged filter can make it appear that your pump is barely working or not working at all.

The second well is where I'm going too... There are some good options... hand or solar or combo... I just went the cheapest route (under a $100), but I know there's water w/in 20 feet of the surface. And there is no agriculture or industry uphill... just some random cows and a lot of woods.

 

[nharrold]

Sometimes, the problem can be traced to the start capacitor in the control box for your pump. You might take a look at that and see if it shows any signs of overheating, cracking, expanding, etc. Your local plumbing dealer should be able to test the capacitor for you. Had that problem myself five days ago, but I ultimately had to replace the pump and the control box due to sand and gravel freezing the pump bearings.

 

[idelphic]

This is a concern of mine as well. But of a different magnitude.

I have city supplied water and septic. Where do I get water in the event of a supply failure?

I have a 6x6 crawlspace that does not have a concrete. I have been considering a hand dug 4 or 6" well. I wonder just how long it will take me. I suppose a bigger question will be if the DW will allow it..

 

[AnniePutin]

Good luck with getting the problem taken care of jae!! God bless...

 

[biere]

Run a google on Lehman's and you will find a catalog of amish type stuff.

You can indeed piggy back a hand pump on an electric well pump system, but it is not cheap or simple.

Since a well can go bad I think pursuing the idea of another well would be the best bet and one can be designed from the get-go as having a handpump and an electric pump.

I used to live in the country and I have replaced my well pump several times, clay and sandy soil does indeed kill the pump quickly. Pulling it up by hand sucks, however once it is out of the well pipe you can use some skinny pvc pipe to make a long and skinny well bucket, lehman's has one they sell but you can make one for a few dollars all by yourself.

Overall I think having a big bladder tank in line with the electric well pump is a good idea, you can use small ones but the big ones are what I prefer. I would also go ahead and add in a storage tank that someone else mentioned, but the tank and how you fill and empty it should be set up for your specific well. For instance some electric well pumps can pump a well dry depending on its recovery rate so you might not want to let a 200 gallon tank go dry before the well pump kicks on to fill it back up.

Some searches on wells will turn up even more ideas, this site covers well stuff very well.

 

[twincougars]

DH went out and checked the pressure switch (thanks again)....and the water came back on. However, there is barely any pressure, so something is still wrong with the system. We will have someone come out and take a look tomorrow.

Another possibility is your pressure tank. Old ones (without an internal bladder) especially get saturated (filled to the top with water; no air cusion). Measure the air pressure (using a tire pressure guage) on the little valve on the top of the tank. It should match the switchon pressure (probably 40psi) or higher. To bleed the tank, and restore the precharge air cusion, you will need to shut off the pump, then turn on your faucets until the pressure tank is empty of all water (tap on side for hollow sound), then turn off faucets, check pressure on valve on the top of the tank. You may need to use an air pump to pump it up to 40psi. Then start up your well pump (closing the relay, as mentioned before, until the water pressure is above the 40psi mark).

When the pressure tank is operating properly, it should be about half full of water and half full of air. Sometimes you can tell this by condensation on the lower half of the tank, or you can feel where the cold part stops. If it is cold all the way to the top, then the tank has lost its air cusion. This happens frequently with older tanks when a well pump is run continuously for a long period of time.

Another possibility is the pump controller (a bigger grey plastic or metal box about 6" wide, 9" high and maybe 3 in. deep-- sometimes mounted outside right over the well); specifically the capacitor, as was already mentioned. Mine took a lightening hit once and I had to replace the relay in it or the capacitor; I forgot which.

You might also have a leak in the pipe coming from the well, or a valve in your plumbing system might have accidently gotten partly closed (children??). IF you have a clamp-on AC ampmeter (and know how to use it), and you know the current specification (in amps) for your well pump, you can check to see if the pump is drawing the proper current.

 

[mudwrench]

the pump

http://www.timebomb2000.com/vb/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=1787022 i hope this works this is slow but cheaper than a new well

 

[pkid]

DH went out and checked the pressure switch (thanks again)....and the water came back on. However, there is barely any pressure, so something is still wrong with the system. We will have someone come out and take a look tomorrow.

Our well water is a little bit flaky sometimes for exactly the reason that twincougars described. After turning it back on by flipping the little lever (I used my hand, didn't think that something non-insulating would be better), it usually comes back, but sometimes the pressure gauge just gets stuck to where the gauge reads 40PSI at the same time the water storage cylinder is completely empty. This will lead to slow slow water with hardly any pressure.

I slam the gauge a few times with something hard and metal and it goes back to zero, after which manually working the lever will eventually fix things.

I believe I have traced at least part of the cause to one of the toilets upstairs, after replacing the flapper I left the chain a little bit too long so that on flushing, the chain will sometimes get stuck under the flapper so that the reserve is constantly sucking water that is going directly to the drain. Once this happens, the pressure goes down and starts kicking the pump on and off, until eventually the pressure gauge fails and the whole thing fails to where no water is coming out.

I obviously need to replace the gauge, it is sticky. But when we are in the situation of using a LOT of water (as in the stuck toilet), it causes the pressure gauge to go off so many times in rapid succession that it will inevitably stick eventually and we'll have no water until I re-prime it several times, fix the toilet chain, and kill all other water for a while to let the hot water heater refill along with any other water using appliances.

twincougars' suggestion has saved us many many times in the past, though I know someday it will stop working. If that suggestion helped in your case, *keep trying*! It may eventually get your water back.

 

[jae]

Thank you all for all the good suggestions! There are so many knowledgeable people on this forum. It's one of the reasons I love reading here.

The pump repairmen just left. They had to replace the switch and the tank. I think twincougars pretty much nailed the problems....

While they were here, I asked what it would cost to add a pitcher pump to the existing system. He said he thought we should just get a generator to have around. I told him we had one...but would like a longer lasting solution, in the event we didn't have electricity for awhile.

He just shook his head and said I sounded like those "y2k people" that had hand pumps put on before 2000.

But, eventually he did say that it wouldn't be too much problem to add a pitcher pump to the T valve. (?) I'm sure you guys probably know what he meant.

(They said they would send an estimate for that, with the bill.)

Now that I have lots of water.....I have to get back to work.

Thanks again for all the good ideas. I'm printing them off and going to save them for future reference.

 

[Texas Writer]

jae. Did they say why they felt it necessary to replace the tank? That doesn't make much sense to me.

 

[JW]

We do not have a well but we have on a number of occasions lost water pressure. So I solved that problem. I took the water softner loop placed a ball valve in the middle, put a tee on both sides of the of the ball valve , then put another ball valve on each tee w/ a male hose threaded end. I took a harbor freight shallow well pump $79.00 w/ storage tank and bladder. I put a hard hose from the intake side of the loop and a washing maching hose from the pump to the other. When the water pressure goes off all I have to do is turn the three ball valved one off the center one; two on then turn on the pump. Wala I pump the water from the main to my house because no one else can get to the street mains 15 feet below the road surface. Oh yes I also put a check valve at the water meter so their cannot be a back flow to the main. If the water pressure comes on the pump turns off and stay that way until I turn the ball valves again. The reason I used the softner loop is that all water goes through it except for one hose bib out side. This outside bib does have a important purpose but I will not go into that now. No one knows what I have , because it is all inside my home. If I so want to I could put my hand pump on it, but I have two back up generators and a solar electric system to provide electrical power.

 

[jae]

TW,

He did say why....but I'm afraid I can't really remember exactly what he said.

Something about air above the bladder? I don't know. He did say that you can extend the life of the tank, by checking the pressure about once a month and making sure it is at least 38. He said you could add more air with a generator.

Sorry I don't remember it better...

 

[Firebird]

When talking to Horse about our horses, I brought up these same topics.

How are we going to water the horses without electricity? Go to the nearest creek and haul back water every 12 hours or a Generator?

How are we going to care for the horses in the winter if the electricity went out? Get a motel room possibly 50 miles away or get a Wood Stove and wood?

In other words I tried to show him it would be easier to plan ahead for possible problems now so he would not have more work later.

This worked for him. I just recently talked to him about washing clothes by hand which he would have to help with because it is alot of work. His solution was to buy me a 15kw generator for my birthday. Easier for him than washing clothes.

Thank goodness for our lake. This will make the difference for us and our animals.

 

[WFK]

TW,

He did say why....but I'm afraid I can't really remember exactly what he said.

Something about air above the bladder? I don't know. He did say that you can extend the life of the tank, by checking the pressure about once a month and making sure it is at least 38. He said you could add more air with a generator.

Sorry I don't remember it better...

This is how it goes:

In a bladder tank, air is compressed above the bladder (which holds water.)

The pressure of this "pre-charge" is 2 lbs/sqin below the cut-in of the pressure switch. (So your cut-in is probably 40 lbs/sqin.)
There is a bicycle type valve on the tank body. There you can measure the pressure and add air with any AIR PUMP you have handy (Could wear you out with handpump...)

It is important that the PRE-charge is measured and not the pressure during operation!
During normal operation the air pressure above the bladder follows the water pressure (is exactly the same as the water pressure).
To measure the pre-charge correctly,
1. turn off the pump
2. drain all water (leave a faucet open)
3. measure the pressure with a tire pressure gage.

Unless you follow the drain procedure correctly, the results may not be the real pre-charge. (An experienced plumber can conclude during such drain procedure that the bladder inside the tank is busted.)

Now you can reconstruct what the plumber told you

Edited: A healthy bladder tank does not lose air...
I suggest you test it a year from now Then you see.
It it is just a bit low, add air.
It it is very low, call the plumber and have him chase the leak.

It you do that, you will be with a small minority of people maintaining their system this way!
Most do nothing and call a plumber after things fail.

It you really had a defective pressure switch and a defective tank then it is still not clear
which part failed first. But it is unlikely that a failing pressure switch can take the tank with it
if it is correctly pre-charged.
One early sign of lost pre-charge is that the pump cycles too frequently.

 

[LoupGarou]

Also make sure your pressure tank is big enough for your workloads. If you have one well/pump/pressure tank setup for both the house and barn, make sure that it is big enough so that the long periods that you have the water on (filling up troughs and washing horses) keep the pump running and not cycling on and off. Here in CVA, a lot of well digging companies and well as plumbers like to replace/install either 5 or 10 gallon tanks, way too small for the use that it gets. After we had our well dug, they installed a 10 gallon tank and the pump would cycle on and off, on and off, any time you had a faucet more than half open. We replaced it with a 20 gallon and even with a faucet fully open, the pump comes on and stays on like it should. The constant cycling is what kills pumps and especially pressure switches.

As far as backup, Shur-flo makes a 12VDC and 24VDC (and 48V) pump that can be lowered down in the well right next to your AC one, and does not cost much. They are not rated as heavy duty as your big AC pump, but for backups they work great. The other option is to pick up a solar pump (like a dankoff or lorentz), these are designed for heavy use. New they are a couple grand, but I have been able to find them used for a few hundred, and rebuilding them is easy. They also come in 12V, 24V, (and 48V). Either way you go, if you get one that runs on 12V, you can run it straight off of your car. If you get one that is 24V, you need two batteries in series for the 24V, but that is not too hard to setup. Try to avoid the 48V units unless you want to go solar (trying to keep 4 batteries in series charged is an issue that you don't want to have to worry about when things get bad). Once you have the pump and batteries setup, you can then use solar panels to keep the batteries charged. Either way, you are not running a noisy generator that might attact unwanted attention to you after TSHTF.

Loup Garou

 

[pkchicken]

I remember a similar problem to yours Jae, a few years ago. DH was at work, it was a holiday weekend and the plumber was tipsy, no water, one kid in diapers and alzheimers grandma was incontinent........................no water............can you smell it?

I thought I was prepared for everything. Good thing the swimming pool still had water in it. But as I remember it the pool water was cold, not very good for cleaning diapers.

It was the thermostat on the pump. Only a 70 buck item .

We have a generator for the well pump but it wont help when the pump is busticated.

Opened my eyes. Puke on the kitchen floor. Yuck!!!! yeaah ya gotta have water.

My mantra latelly is ....water water water.

We since have a shallow well but it is not safe to drink..........crap!

I am so relieved that your DH is getting aware. Please keep me posted.

pk

 

[JW]

Those with city water try this

We do not have a well but we have on a number of occasions lost water pressure. So I solved that problem. I took the water softner loop placed a ball valve in the middle, put a tee on both sides of the of the ball valve , then put another ball valve on each tee w/ a male hose threaded end. I took a harbor freight shallow well pump $79.00 w/ storage tank and bladder. I put a hard hose from the intake side of the loop and a washing maching hose from the pump to the other. When the water pressure goes off all I have to do is turn the three ball valved one off the center one; two on then turn on the pump. Wala I pump the water from the main to my house because no one else can get to the street mains 15 feet below the road surface. Oh yes I also put a check valve at the water meter so their cannot be a back flow to the main. If the water pressure comes on the pump turns off and stay that way until I turn the ball valves again. The reason I used the softner loop is that all water goes through it except for one hose bib out side. This outside bib does have a important purpose but I will not go into that now. No one knows what I have , because it is all inside my home. If I so want to I could put my hand pump on it, but I have two back up generators and a solar electric system to provide electrical power.

 

[twincougars]

Luckly, in town where we have city water, we also have two creeks: one in the front yard and one in the back yard. In summer we water the lawns by pumping from the back yard creek, using an outdoor electric pump and extention cord and a 1" plastic hose with a check valve lowered into the creek. If we ever lost our city water, AND electricity, we could bail from the creeks (the backyard one is only about 30 ft. from the back door).

BTW, even if the pressure tank bladder is broken, you can still use the tank. In fact, the old tanks didn't have bladders. You just have to be more maintanence conscious, and watch for too frequent pump cycling. When that happens, you have to bleed off the water from the tank.

For my well at my cabin retreat, I have two pressure tanks--one 15 gal. and one 30 or 50 gal (not sure which).

 

[glider]

We do not have a well but we have on a number of occasions lost water pressure. So I solved that problem. I took the water softner loop placed a ball valve in the middle, put a tee on both sides of the of the ball valve , then put another ball valve on each tee w/ a male hose threaded end. I took a harbor freight shallow well pump $79.00 w/ storage tank and bladder. I put a hard hose from the intake side of the loop and a washing maching hose from the pump to the other. When the water pressure goes off all I have to do is turn the three ball valved one off the center one; two on then turn on the pump. Wala I pump the water from the main to my house because no one else can get to the street mains 15 feet below the road surface. Oh yes I also put a check valve at the water meter so their cannot be a back flow to the main. If the water pressure comes on the pump turns off and stay that way until I turn the ball valves again. The reason I used the softner loop is that all water goes through it except for one hose bib out side. This outside bib does have a important purpose but I will not go into that now. No one knows what I have , because it is all inside my home. If I so want to I could put my hand pump on it, but I have two back up generators and a solar electric system to provide electrical power.

There is a potential problem with your system.

If you draw water from the water main, you create a vacuum. If there is a hole in any of the nearby pipes connected to the main, or the main itself, whatever contamination is in the water (outside the pipe) that is surrounding the hole will be drawn into the main, and possibly into your water system. The hole would not have to be large, and could be small leak that wouldn't be noticeable above ground.

If a neighbor has a malfunctioning check valve in their water supply feeder, you could siphon contaminated water back into the main from their house, and possibly into your system.

If the water is off because of a nearby water main break, the same thing could happen. Once the main becomes unpressurized, the water at the point of the break that has run out into the surrounding dirt or roadway could run back into the main, and be pumped into your house.

This is why the pipes near any large break that has been repaired are purged of contaminated water prior to allowing consumers to again use the water.

The bottom line is that the water that you pump from the mains should not be used for cooking or drinking, and your entire home water system should be purged after the city water system pressure is restored.

 

[jae]

WFK...Thanks for explaining how to measure the pre-charge correctly. I will print that out, too. I knew I'd never remember what the pump repairman told me. Now I've got it.

Lou Garou...I wasn't even aware there were battery run pumps. That sounds like another good alternative to keep in mind.

pkchicken...Not a pretty picture! Sometimes it does take something like that to get us motivated. Hope you got it all squared away...

BTW...twincougars, I just noticed that you are in WA. too. How come you didn't come to our meet in Maryshill ?

 

[JW]

Of course the water would only be used for washing and cleaning. I have several other ways of making that water pure to include a 1237 gallon storage tank with a cloranator on it, also a carbon ion filters. I also have a distiller which make 42 gals a day. We also have Big Berks, but we would have water!

 

[twincougars]

BTW...twincougars, I just noticed that you are in WA. too. How come you didn't come to our meet in Maryshill ?

What's/where's Maryshill? Don't know anything about it.

 

[jae]

twincougars,

Maryshill museum is where we had a TB/MAG (Mutual Assistance Group) meet, Summer before last. We are hoping to have another one this Spring or Summer.

It was really nice meeting people from this forum....that live relatively near by. Everyone was great and we had a nice picnic and then talked for hours.

I made several really good friends from that get together...and I'm looking forward to another one. It's a wonderful way to put a face to the name and meet people that live close enough, that in times of trouble, you hopefully have some trust in.

Maryshill is not too far from Goldendale, WA. (East side of the Cascade Mts.)

Let me know if you're interested in/(or helping to organize) another meeting.

Edited to add that I looked it up and it's "Maryhill museum". Sorry....
here's a link: http://www.maryhillmuseum.org/

 

[gillmanNSF]

I live 525 feet on the side of a hill, so if the power was to go off city-wide for an indefinite amount of time, woud I eventually lose water pressure and have no running water? That would totally s**k. Would that also be true for the sewer system, or can I rely on gravity to take care of that? I'm just applying the broken pump scenario to a larger urban scenario.