REL GENRL The Crime of Circumcision in Germany

eens

Nuns with Guns
The crime of circumcision

By Michael Gerson, Published: July 5
“This is my covenant which you shall keep, between me and you and your descendants after you: Every male child among you shall be circumcised.”
— Genesis 17:10

Michael Gerson

A district judge in Cologne, Germany, recently ruled that ritual circumcision is a crime, violating “the fundamental right of the child to bodily integrity,” which outweighs other parental and religious rights. “This change runs counter to the interests of the child,” the court concluded, “who can decide his religious affiliation himself later in life.”
Jews and Muslims have traditionally viewed male circumcision in a different light — not as an expression of individual choice but as a form of initiation into a community. German religious figures from all the Abrahamic faiths criticized the Cologne ruling, with particular outrage expressed by Jewish leaders. *Dieter Graumann, head of the Central Council of Jews in Germany, called it “outrageous and insensitive” and warned that a general application of the decision would “coldbloodedly force Judaism into illegality.”
Though the ban directly applies in only one region of Germany, secular supporters count it a triumph and a precedent. One academic, Holm Putzke, celebrated the rejection of “religiously motivated violence against children.” “The court has,” he said, “unlike many politicians, not been deterred by the fear of being criticized as anti-Semitic or antireligious.”

Normally such deterrence would be viewed as a healthy thing, particularly in a country that relatively recently — within living memory — sought to be judenrein, “clean of Jews.” But the fearlessness of modern secularism is a thing to behold. Before World War II, about 600,000 Jews were living in Germany. Today there are a little more than 100,000. This remnant is now informed that its 4,000-year-old ritual of identity — perhaps the oldest Jewish tradition — is a violation of enlightened notions of individual rights.

Jewish sensitivity on this subject is understandable. Anti-Semitism has always focused not only on Jewish beliefs but also on Jewish bodies. And circumcision has attracted particular attention. The Roman historian Tacitus called it a “base and abominable” practice, by which Jews deliberately chose to “distinguish themselves from other peoples.” The banning of circumcision by the Emperor Hadrian may have helped foment a Jewish revolt in 132 A.D. During the Middle Ages, the practice was linked to the blood libel — accusations that Jews used the blood of murdered Christians in circumcision rituals. Joseph Stalin banned ritual circumcision along with other Jewish religious practices.

Most of the current opposition to circumcision — found not only in Germany but in Sweden, Norway, Holland, Finland and the United States — would dispute the charge of anti-Semitism. The arguments opponents claim are resolutely modern: It is medically harmful (a difficult case, in light of the fact that the World Health Organization and UNAIDS recommend the practice as part of effective HIV/AIDS prevention efforts). Along with the Cologne judge, most critics of circumcision also regard it as a violation of individual self-determination, which raises religious-liberty issues larger than a single snip.

A strain of modern liberalism contends that only individuals and their rights are real in the legal sense — and there is no other acceptable sense. It is the role of the state to defend individual self-determination against oppressive institutions, including religious institutions. Since circumcision is coerced, it is unjust. The same claim might be made — and has been made — of early religious indoctrination of any kind. Liberalism thus leads to an aggressive form of assimilation to the values of the liberal order.
Many Jews naturally view compulsive, state-sponsored assimilation with suspicion, even if it is described as social liberation. Along with many other religious people, they regard children as members of a community that precedes individual decisions and outlasts them — a community created by a covenant, not a choice. Circumcision is the outward sign of this spiritual reality.

In the traditional view, religious communities are not only real but irreplaceable sources of meaning and belonging. They are the ties that free individuals from isolation and ennui — even at the price of a little unremembered pain.
There is a story from Holocaust history about a woman at the Janowska concentration camp who demanded a knife from a guard. Taken by surprise, he complied. The other inmates thought the woman intended suicide. Instead, she reached down into a bundle of rags and circumcised her infant boy — then prayed aloud for God to receive him back to heaven as a Jew.

If this is the definition of a crime anywhere in the modern world, it is a sad regression from freedom.
michaelgerson@washpost.com

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...circumcision/2012/07/05/gJQAvNvPQW_story.html
 

TerryK

TB Fanatic
Why do socialists believe the only way to promote freedom is to force their idea of what is right on everyone else. Hell come to think of it most far right believe the same thing.
The far left and ironically the far right are pretty similar in this respect.
Letting people alone as long as they aren't hurting anyone else is the one thing I like most about libertarians.
 

Chair Warmer

Membership Revoked
Why do socialists believe the only way to promote freedom is to force their idea of what is right on everyone else. Hell come to think of it most far right believe the same thing.
The far left and ironically the far right are pretty similar in this respect.
Letting people alone as long as they aren't hurting anyone else is the one thing I like most about libertarians.

I agree.

Everyone's life situations are different and when groups want to micromanage everyone else's life... they don't take into account all the exceptional circumstances. Often they cause more harm than the good they intended.
 

ainitfunny

Saved, to glorify God.
WELL, They have effectively AGAIN made otherwise law abiding Jews into CRIMINALS to justify persecution to come I surmise?

If I was Jewish I would be applying for American citizenship on the basis that I was forbidden to practice my religion in Germany.(again)

Smart move for Jews to LEAVE Germany NOW while the "gittin' is good".
There can be no more SPECIFIC a pogrom against Jews than that law. It literally outlaws their religion and those who practice it.

PERHAPS THE GERMANS ARE SO INTENT ON GETTING RID OF THE MUSLIMS (Who ALSO circumcise boys before they can enter a mosque to pray) THAT THEY ARE WILLING TO SACRIFICE THE JEWS AS "COLLATERAL DAMAGE" WITH THIS NEW LAW?
 

Flippper

Time Traveler
It's because "liberals" (communists in happy faces) think they are smarter than everyone else in the room, city, nation. Therefore they are doing what they, in their incredible wisdom and desire to make the environment perfect to their standards, deem necessary to achieve this utopia, forcing everyone else to march lockstep.

Also, I notice a trend, at first here, but really globally, to make everyday activities illegal so we are all criminals in the eyes of the nanny state and can be hauled off at the drop of a hat. And guess what? They have new laws in place that make it so on one will ever see you again. Schweeeeet.
 

Dobbin

Faithful Steed
Dunno about circumcision. I'm not circumcised - it would be MOST unusual, and I expect most Vets would balk at a request to do so. Rather I'm cleaned irregularly by Owner, whom I allow the, er, pleasure. Although for me it is not. And I expect it does him no favors either, except in a potential vet bill should problems arise.

Now I would expect in humans a similar infection/disease potential for those who overlook to clean themselves. Although at least one website addressing the subject generally seemed to indicate no rash of problems among Civil War participants who were by in large not circumcised - it not being the custom of that age.

Physically I think it makes not difference.

Instead I think I would put this to the folly of those who MUST be in control. My "three motivations of humanity" with the third being power. Some humans just HAVE to be in control of others as this massages and engorges their ego most pleasurably.

One wishes they instead attend to their nether parts with as much lavish attention. All beings might be better off if they did?

Dobbin
 

Dennis Olson

Chief Curmudgeon
_______________
This thread has been edited to remove anti-abortion thread hijacking. Any additional attempts to inject abortion discussion into this thread will result in an infraction for the member, and them being banned from the thread.
 

Conrad Nimikos

Who is Henry Bowman
...Personally I would let the male children decide when they are adults if they want the surgery. When my son was born I waited for someone to ask me about doing the surgery. No one did. They asked his mother and she said go ahead. I had intended to tell them "no".
 

Doc1

Has No Life - Lives on TB
I have personal experience with this issue. When I was born in the late '50s , circumcision was routinely practiced on American infants. I was "clipped" and never seemed any the worse for it. As the birth of my own son approached nearly 25 years ago, I carefully considered the issue. While it is true that there may be certain hygiene and disease prevention benefits to the procedure, I ultimately decided that it represented the mutilation of a helpless infant who had no say so in the matter. At the time of his birth, circumcision was still routinely done however, I - much to the surprise of the birthing staff - very specifically forbade them to do it! Female circumcision, which rightly evokes horror in the western mind, usually involves excising the clitoris, though there are other and more extensive forms of female genital mutilation which are considered to be circumcision as well. I have not changed my mind one iota on the subject: Newborn circumcision is the needless (and painful) mutilation of a helpless infant. After children reach adulthood, they may decide on whatever elective surgery or procedures they wish.

Best regards
Doc
 

Dobbin

Faithful Steed
As the birth of my own son approached nearly 25 years ago, I carefully considered the issue.
An interesting adjunct to discussion: I wonder what your now 25 year old has to say on the matter? He now could give us an "adult" view. Did it affect him being "different" from his Dad? Did he wish that it had been done? How carefully was it explained to him and his thoughts on the rationale? How did he compare himself with his locker room buddies - the majority of whom were likely circumcised?

Or perhaps there are others among us on this "other" side?

I myself have no comparison, other than Owner whom I've seen only a very few times au natural. (Gosh you humans are small aren't you?) But the specie difference perhaps removes me emotionally?

Dobbin
 
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