The 'Bush Lied' folks can't be taken seriously

Donner9x

Thread Killer :-)
The 'Bush Lied' folks can't be taken seriously

July 19, 2004

Official reports issued the last two weeks have conclusively refuted those who have been arguing that "BUSH LIED" about the dangers from Iraq and its weapons of mass destruction programs. The first report was that of the Senate Intelligence Committee. That committee has been rent by partisan divisions over the last year, but the report was unanimous.

One prime conclusion of the report is that American intelligence organizations, like those of every other major country, did indeed believe that Saddam Hussein's regime possessed weapons of mass destruction and had ongoing WMD programs. That intelligence seems to have been mistaken.

But given Saddam Hussein's documented development, possession and use of WMDs, and his refusal to account for their disposal, what intelligence evidence could have convinced a reasonable analyst that he no longer had them?

As the Brookings Institution's Michael O'Hanlon -- a frequent Bush critic -- puts it, "It would have taken an overwhelming body of evidence for any reasonable person in 2002 to think that Saddam did not possess stockpiles of chemical and biological agents."

So Bush was justified in relying on the intelligence. And "the committee did not find any evidence that administration officials attempted to coerce, influence or pressure analysts to change their judgments related to Iraq's weapons of mass destruction capabilities."

So much for the wild charges that Bush manipulated intelligence and lied about weapons of mass destruction. He simply said what was believed by every informed person -- including leading members of the Clinton administration before 2001 and Sens. John Kerry and John Edwards in their speeches in October 2002 supporting military action in Iraq.

The Senate Intelligence Committee report also refuted completely the charges by former diplomat Joseph Wilson that the Bush administration ignored his conclusion, based on several days in Niger, that Iraq had not sought to buy uranium in that country. Democrats and many in the press claimed that Wilson refuted the 16-word sentence Bush's 2003 State of the Union speech, noting that British intelligence reported that Iraq sought to buy uranium in Africa.

But British intelligence stands by that finding, and the committee noted that Wilson confirmed that Iraq had approached Niger, whose main exports are uranium and goats, and intelligence analysts concluded that his report added nothing else to their previous knowledge. And the report flatly denied Wilson's statements that his wife, CIA agent Valerie Plame, had nothing to do with his mission to Niger -- it quotes Plame's memo taking credit for the appointment.

The report issued last week in Britain by former civil servant Lord Butler reaches similar conclusions. It finds that Prime Minister Tony Blair did not pressure intelligence organizations to change their findings and that there was no "deliberate distortion" of intelligence or "culpable negligence." It supported the conclusion of British intelligence that Iraq was seeking to buy uranium in Africa.

All this is significant because for the past year most leading Democrats and many in the determinedly anti-Bush media have been harping on the "BUSH LIED" theme. Their aim clearly has been to discredit and defeat Bush. The media continue to fight this battle: contrast the way The New York Times, The Washington Post and the Los Angeles Times front-paged the Wilson charges last year with the way they're downplaying the proof that Wilson lied deep inside the paper this year.

Yale historian John Lewis Gaddis has argued that George W. Bush has transformed American foreign policy, in response to the threat of Islamist terrorism, more than any president since Harry Truman transformed our foreign policy in response to the threat of aggressive communism.

But there is one big difference. In the late 1940s, Truman got bipartisan support from Republicans like Arthur Vandenberg and Thomas Dewey, even at a time when there were bitter differences between the parties on domestic policy, and received generally sympathetic treatment in the press. This time, George W. Bush has encountered determined opposition from most Democrats and the old-line media. They have charged that "BUSH LIED" even when he relied on the same intelligence as they did; they have headlined wild and spurious charges by the likes of Joseph Wilson; they have embraced the wild-eyed propaganda of the likes of Michael Moore.

They have done these things with, at best, reckless disregard of the effect their arguments have had on American strength in the world.

Are they entitled to be taken seriously?
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:rdr: Donner9x: Official member of His Majesty Bush's imperialistic, super-duper secret, right-wing extremist, neo-con, Proud, crusading-Xtian, oil-grabbing, prisoner-"torturing" cabal... ( For the dense: /sarcasm off ) :rolleyes:

:usfl:
 

rhino8

Membership Revoked
It should be the "only bush lied" people that should not be taken seriously

It wasn't only G.W Bush Jr that lied !

But Donald Rumsfeild, Condalezza Rice, Colon Powel, and about 100 other top officials in our governement and news networks (FOX, CNN etc).

THese Neocons know nothing but Lying as a way of life.

So if you only believe G.W Bush lied...or covered up other's lies....then you are very naive.

But don't think I'm a lefty democrat marxist.......they have plenty of skeletons in their closets.

I say vote all the dem and rep out and stop listening to CNN,FOX and other chickenshit news networks :sht:
 

Dennis Olson

Chief Curmudgeon
_______________
Why do people call them Neo-cons? There is NOTHING conservative about these people. Anyway, this thread goes to POL.
 

Contrasaur

Inactive
Dennis Olson said:
Why do people call them Neo-cons? There is NOTHING conservative about these people. Anyway, this thread goes to POL.
I could understand people's confusion during the 2000 campaign but after 3 1/2 years of behavior to examine . . . it is really frightening to know so many people are unable to think.

Good church going people fooled by con men with Bibles.
 

pixmo

Bucktoothed feline member
The Republicans don't have a monopoly as far as lying and deceit are concerned. I doubt there ever is such a thing as an honest politician.

If you want to get to the upper levels of government, you usually have to make compromises, wheel and deal, and tell people stuff they want to hear versus giving them cold, unpleasant facts right from the get. You're not going to get too many votes if you are totally honest, IMO.
 

bigwavedave

Deceased
Donner9x, you have been totally hoodwinked. this has been done so you can "feel" better.

neocons are trotskyites but nobody cares since bush is fighting the evil muslims. go figure.

Leon Trotsky
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

1915 passport photoLeon Davidovich Trotsky; also transliterated Trostskii, Trotski, or Trotzky) (October 26 (O.S.) = November 7 (N.S.), 1879 - August 21, 1940), né Lev Davidovich Bronstein was a Bolshevik revolutionary and Marxist intellectual. He was an influential politician in the early Soviet Union; first as People's Commissar for Foreign Affairs and then as the founder and commander of the Red Army and People's Commissar of War. He was a founding member of the powerful Politburo. Trotsky was expelled from the Communist Party and deported from the Soviet Union due to his opposition to Josef Stalin's policies and power consolidation, and was later murdered in Mexico by a Soviet agent.

His date of birth in the Gregorian calendar is November 7 – the same day as the Soviet revolution of 1917. Since the Julian calendar was replaced in 1918, his date of death is that of the Gregorian calendar. He was born in Yanovka, Kherson Province, Ukraine, the son of a farmer, David Bronshtein, of Jewish background.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leon_Trotsky

The long reach of Leo Strauss
William Pfaff IHT
Thursday, May 15, 2003

Neoconservatives

PARIS The trouble with American conservatism during most of the 20th century was that it was not particularly intelligent. The Republican Party was and is a business party, anti-intellectual and to a considerable degree xenophobic.

The radical neoconservatives, who appeared in the 1960s, are the first seriously intelligent movement on the American right since the 19th century. They want to remake the international order under effective U.S. hegemony, destroy America's enemies and cripple or eliminate the United Nations and other institutions making a claim to international jurisdiction.

They have a political philosophy, and the arrogance and intolerance of their actions reflect their conviction that they possess a realism and truth others lack.

They include Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz; Abram Shulsky of the Pentagon's Office of Special Plans, Richard Perle of the Pentagon advisory board, Elliott Abrams of the National Security Council, and the writers Robert Kagan and William Kristol.

The main intellectual influence on the neoconservatives has been the philosopher Leo Strauss, who left Germany in 1938 and taught for many years at the University of Chicago. Several of the neoconservatives studied under him. Wolfowitz and Shulsky took doctorates under him.

Something of a cult developed around Strauss during his later years at Chicago, and he and some admirers figure in the Saul Bellow novel, "Ravelstein." The cult is appropriate because Strauss believed that the essential truths about human society and history should be held by an elite, and withheld from others who lack the fortitude to deal with truth. Society, Strauss thought, needs consoling lies.

He held that philosophy is dangerous because it brings into question the conventions on which civil order and the morality of society depend. This risks promoting a destructive nihilism.

According to Strauss, the relativism of modern American society is a moral disorder that could block it from identifying its real enemies. "Moral clarity" is essential. The Weimar Republic's toleration of extremism allowed the rise of the Nazi party.

Strauss made an intellectually powerful and sophisticated critique of post-Enlightenment liberalism. He saw the United States as the most advanced case of liberalism and thus the most exposed to nihilism.

He believed that Greek classical philosophy, notably that of Plato, is more true to nature than anything that has replaced it. Some critics say that his interpretation of Plato is perverse, but he said that he had recovered the "real" Plato, lost by later Neo-Platonic and Christian thinkers.

He also argued that Platonic truth is too hard for people to bear, and that the classical appeal to "virtue" as the object of human endeavor is unattainable. Hence it has been necessary to tell lies to people about the nature of political reality. An elite recognizes the truth, however, and keeps it to itself. This gives it insight, and implicitly power that others do not possess. This obviously is an important element in Strauss's appeal to America's neoconservatives.

The ostensibly hidden truth is that expediency works; there is no certain God to punish wrongdoing; and virtue is unattainable by most people. Machiavelli was right. There is a natural hierarchy of humans, and rulers must restrict free inquiry and exploit the mediocrity and vice of ordinary people so as to keep society in order.

This is obviously a bleak and anti-utopian philosophy that goes against practically everything Americans want to believe. It contradicts the conventional wisdom of modern democratic society. It also contradicts the neoconservatives' own declared policy ambitions to make the Muslim world democratic and establish a new U.S.-led international order, which are blatantly utopian.

Strauss, who died in 1973, was no friend of hegemony, American or otherwise. He said that "no human being and no group of human beings can rule the whole of the human race justly." His concern during the Cold War was that Soviet universalism invited an alternative American claim to world rule.

His real appeal to the neoconservatives, in my view, is that his elitism presents a principled rationalization for policy expediency, and for "necessary lies" told to those whom the truth would demoralize.

Strauss's thought is a matter of public interest because his followers are in charge of U.S. foreign policy. But he is more interesting than they are.

http://www.iht.com/articles/96307.html


Criticism

Strauss has been criticised for his influence on the modern neo-conservative movement, particularly for his justification of Machiavellian concepts such as the inability of the general public to understand the truth and thus the necessity to lie for reasons of expediency. "Straussians" include Wolfowitz, William Kristol, Abram Shulsky, Gary Schmitt (executive director of the Project for the New American Century), and others. The first widely-distributed exposé of Straussianism that was critical of its influence on the Bush White House was Shadia Drury's Leo Strauss and the American Right which was originally published in 1999 and re-released in 2001 in a new edition that highlighted the prominent Straussians in the Bush Administration.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_Strauss
 

Contrasaur

Inactive
pixmo said:
The Republicans don't have a monopoly as far as lying and deceit are concerned. I doubt there ever is such a thing as an honest politician.

If you want to get to the upper levels of government, you usually have to make compromises, wheel and deal, and tell people stuff they want to hear versus giving them cold, unpleasant facts right from the get. You're not going to get too many votes if you are totally honest, IMO.
Exactly. In addition, the world is a dangerous place and I would not want our leader to be a naive sucker.

And Kerry will be no different than all the rest.
 

Contrasaur

Inactive
Hence it has been necessary to tell lies to people about the nature of political reality. An elite recognizes the truth, however, and keeps it to itself. This gives it insight, and implicitly power that others do not possess. This obviously is an important element in Strauss's appeal to America's neoconservatives.
Sounds very European.
 

INVAR

Sword At-The-Ready
But don't think I'm a lefty democrat marxist. - Rhino-8

No. You just parrot the same Liberal/Marxist talking points that the Democrat Underground ceaselessly bleats.

It's obvious none of you "Bush Lied" imbeciles bothered to read the article Black Seal posted, or provided point-by-point refutation of the article's proofs.

You people plug your ears, shut your eyes and scream over and over and over again "Bush Lied! Bush Lied! Bush Lied! LA LA LA LA LA LA LA LA!!!" Hoping against hope if you keep screaming it, Americans will accept your insanity as the truth.



Please, cite for us ONE LIE Bush KNOWINGLY made about this WOT.

Just ONE.

Facts, proofs and irrefutable evidence to back up your claims required.


I've been waiting for over two years for you rabid Bush-Hating, America-Bashing nitwits to provide any proof outside of empty rhetric and orchestrated politcal efforts that have ALL TURNED OUT TO BE BULLSHIT.

So provide the proof Bush lied.

Thusfar you people have ZERO, ZILCH, NADA except your own rabid foam-at-the-mouth Bush and America hatred rantings to show for.
 

someone

Inactive
neocons are trotskyites

you know i never thought of them that way, but you are right. must be why so many idiots support them, cause god knows that Platocrats need idiots around so they can rule over them.:vik:
 

buff

Deceased
thanks for the links to irrefutable proof from bushlies.net and whodies.com

gimme a break...you actually believe this cause its on bushlies.net?

naw they don't have an agenda....the funny thing to me is y'all are being suckered and don't even know it... :usfl:
 

bigwavedave

Deceased
buffdawg said:
thanks for the links to irrefutable proof from bushlies.net and whodies.com

gimme a break...you actually believe this cause its on bushlies.net?

naw they don't have an agenda....the funny thing to me is y'all are being suckered and don't even know it... :usfl:

you're welcome. don't you share this agenda? maybe you have one of your own? :lol:
 

rhino8

Membership Revoked
Probably the biggest lie/coverup of the bush admine

That the planes and their burning fuel caused the collapse of the world trade centers on 9-11

THese people bombed these buildings at the same time and after the planes hit the buildings so they could bring the buildings down and out....killing 3000+ people.

The whole 9-11 commission report ignores physics and the questions of how the collapses happened.....and if you belieived the fire melting jet fuel story....you just don't have any concepts of physics or chemistry.

No the people believe this coverup because to believe otherwise they would have to beleive that our government would purposely do this to the american people.

These people are worse than NAZI's
 

Ought Six

Membership Revoked
r8:

There have been several independant engineering failure analyses of the WTC collapse that explained the physics quite clearly. You simply do not know what the hell you are babbling about.
 

buff

Deceased
The whole 9-11 commission report ignores physics and the questions of how the collapses happened.....and if you belieived the fire melting jet fuel story....you just don't have any concepts of physics or chemistry

i would be real interested to hear your personal concept of physics and chemistry. not a link to bluedemocrat or whatever...not a link to bushlies.com...not a link to bushdidit.com...or whatever nefarious website you choose to link to....i want to hear your own personal knowledge and concept of the physics and chemistry of what happened. you accuse me of having no concept of it....lets hear in your own words what happened.

and it better be good....after all you accuse me of having no concept and basically say i'm stupid because i don't believe your lies or links to more lies...


waiting....
 

RoseTower

Membership Revoked
Ought Six said:
r8:

There have been several independant engineering failure analyses of the WTC collapse that explained the physics quite clearly. You simply do not know what the hell you are babbling about.

Do you have any links to those analyses? I 'd be really interested in seeing them.
 
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