GOV/MIL So it begins, first female/male sex case on a submarine

[lgsracer]

Well this is the first of many.



Top enlisted fired from submarine Nebraska

http://www.navytimes.com/news/2012/...t-fired-submarine-nebraska-gold-crew-021012w/

By Sam Fellman - Staff writer
Posted : Friday Feb 10, 2012 13:59:10 EST

The top enlisted man on a Bangor, Wash.-based ballistic-missile submarine was fired Jan. 3 for “administrative reasons,” a Submarine Group 9 spokesman confirmed Thursday.

Master Chief Electronics Technician (SS) David Turley was chief of the boat of Nebraska’s gold crew before he was fired by Capt. Paul Skarpness, then-commander of Submarine Squadron 17, SUBGRU 9 spokesman Lt. Ed Early said. Turley is the first top enlisted member at a command to be fired in 2012; 13 were fired last year.

After his relief, the Navy began an investigation into allegations that Turley had had an inappropriate relationship with a female Naval Academy midshipman onboard Nebraska, officials familiar with the investigation said.

The firing came only a month after the first female submariners arrived in the fleet. They began reporting to ballistic-missile subs Wyoming and Maine and guided-missile subs Georgia and Ohio.

Turley’s relief was “unconnected” to allegations of an inappropriate relationship aboard the sub, Early said. Due to privacy concerns, he declined to comment on the nature of the alleged relationship or whether Turley was a subject of the investigation.

“Appropriate actions were taken for those who did not meet the high standards we expect,” Early said.

Early also declined to specify what “administrative reasons” led to Turley’s relief.

Asked why SUBGRU 9 did not disclose the firing until pressed by Navy Times, Early said that because Turley wasn’t “relieved for cause,” there was no requirement to make his relief public.

The academy investigated the allegations as soon as they learned of them, academy spokesman Cmdr. William Marks said in an email. “The midshipman is being processed through our misconduct system; however, I cannot speculate on any potential disciplinary action until the adjudication is complete.”

Turley, 41, of Gardenville, Nev., joined the Navy in 1991, according to Navy Personnel Command records. Over his 21-year career, he served aboard eight subs and joined the gold crew as COB in April 2010. Turley was selected for E-9 last May and frocked after that, Early said.

Turley has been reassigned to Naval Submarine Support Center Bangor.

Turley did not immediately respond to messages seeking comment.

 

[Desert Fox]

It was bound to happen..... Roll Tide !

 

[Dobbin]

Instead of the "mile high club" do we have the start of a "mile deep club?"

You know, I just said that but it might not have been like that AT ALL.

Most employers today DISCOURAGE romantic relationships among the workers. Even a soft handed gentle caress to the ears and mane while being paid can be enough to get one fired.

Sad

Joe

 

[D_el]

Maybe he was just showing her the tattoo on his.... uh.....nevermind.

 

[old pirate]

if you tell a woman that her outfit looks nice can get you fired at max, at minimum you can get a write up.

It's a shame how far the pendulum has swung.

 

[Jeep]

Does the femnazi's want all female crews on subs too? Sounds like something is going on upstairs to screw with the moral of sub crew's.

 

[Desert Fox]

On second thought.......anybody with half a brain knows that putting women with men in a small confined space under the ocean for months at a time will result in this type of activity....it's not the activity itself that is the problem... it's the effect on team morale. What happens if the jealousy gets out of hand during time of crisis...heck, they have laws against nepotism...this goes way beyond that.

It's like throwing raw meat in front of a pack of starving wolves and expecting them to behave with proper English aristocracy manners.

Get real people..........

 

[blueridge]

Questions, questions - does the 'new' Navy allow homosexual activity now that BEING a 'gay' person is OK?

I.e. male - male and female - female 'relationships'???

Just how dumbed down do we get?

 

[Bullwinkle]

I did not think enlisted could be fired.
Court Martialed, but not fired.

 

[lgsracer]

I did not think enlisted could be fired.
Court Martialed, but not fired.

They can be relieved from their current duty, which is what happened. He has been sent to squadron where they will have him counting paper clips or some other really important job. When the investigation is completed he will be either sent to NJP or court martial. The big question is will he be allowed to retire or will they just toss him out.

 

[Richard]

thought that a couple had sex on the space station

I expect humans will have sex anywhere

 

[Desert Fox]

Does the woman have no culpability in this situation ?

 

[lgsracer]

Does the woman have no culpability in this situation ?

Yes an no, this case is about an E-9 violating Naval rules and regulations. Since the female is a midshipman she will have to go before a board at the Naval Academy for any wrong doing in her case, if they find any wrong doing they can toss her out and/or court martial or NJP her. They are not processed together because they are in separate chains of command and court martial and/or administrative action only resides in your chain of command.

 

[Metolius]

"and so it begins"??

Yeah, because it sure never happened, ie sex in the military - esp. never sex between a higher up and a subordinate - never ever ever before. Not even back when the wimmen was just file clerks and secretaries to their higher up military bosses, and not in tight quarters at all. No how, no way - because things were different then, yep, yep.

News flash. Been going on as long as humans have inhabited the planet. Seriously. And if there are rules forbidding it in certain circumstances, there will be those who will break the rules, and get in trouble for it. As it should be, with this or any other military rule that is broken by people acting like miscreants. Read a newspaper - military discipline meted out for various infractions is not uncommon - not only does it happen, but there is a system to deal with it. If one can't follow the rules, one doesn't belong in a rules based military.

Nothing earthshaking there. Maybe the situation is new, but the event isn't. Good way to rule out people who can't control themselves - they don't need to be in the military in the first place. I am proud of my military family members, and if one of mine was such a dolt, I'd say buh bye to your career buddy, just as surely as if he/she had chosen to flaunt any other rule.

 

[Woolly]

Yes an no, this case is about an E-9 violating Naval rules and regulations. Since the female is a midshipman she will have to go before a board at the Naval Academy for any wrong doing in her case, if they find any wrong doing they can toss her out and/or court martial or NJP her. They are not processed together because they are in separate chains of command and court martial and/or administrative action only resides in your chain of command.

Perhaps I'm old fashioned, but a midshipman is considered an officer, and for an officer to have a sexual relationship with an enlisted person is a NO!! NO!! Fraternization is what I think its called. At least that's the way it was in the brown shoe Army.

It is clear that the folks in Washington who pushed, and or adopted, the current policy of sexual integration aboard submarines are just too stupid by half.

Woolly

 

[TimeTraveler]

Even a cave man could have seen that one coming. TT

 

[Kent]

"and so it begins"??

Yeah, because it sure never happened, ie sex in the military - esp. never sex between a higher up and a subordinate - never ever ever before. Not even back when the wimmen was just file clerks and secretaries to their higher up military bosses, and not in tight quarters at all.

Having sex with file clerks and secretaries is MUCH different than sex in combat conditions. Would you want your shipmate thinking about his sex pardner, or the good of the ship during combat? How about men fighting over a woman, never would happen in combat situations, right? What will this do to moral aboard ship (boat)? How about a woman claiming a man did something he didn't? How about the specter, real or even perceived, that sex had something to do with promotion? All of this is different in an office a 1000 miles from combat. The job of the military is to kill people and break things, not social engineering.

 

[Metolius]

Having sex with file clerks and secretaries is MUCH different than sex in combat conditions. Would you want your shipmate thinking about his sex pardner, or the good of the ship during combat? How about men fighting over a woman, never would happen in combat situations, right? What will this do to moral aboard ship (boat)? How about a woman claiming a man did something he didn't? How about the specter, real or even perceived, that sex had something to do with promotion? All of this is different in an office a 1000 miles from combat. The job of the military is to kill people and break things, not social engineering.

Good way to weed out those who have no self control. If we are sending people like that to fight for us, maybe it is time to get rid of bad baggage. Either the military is training their people well in regards to discipline, or they better tighten that up. Anyone in a combat situation that can't handle this aspect is frankly a weak link in the chain.

As for the spector, real or perceived, that sex had something to do with promotion, or that a women might claim a man did something he didn't - since that happens in the civilian world, are we saying men won't be able to handle it in the civilian world when they return? It won't do to cosset servicemembers in the military, as though they can't handle things that would come up in the real world while in service. That just doesn't make sense. The bar should be raised, not lowered to make things easier.

Quite a few other countries allow women to participate in full combat. Women are partnered with men in law enforcement. Again, the weak need to be eliminated from the ranks, either males or females. People of either gender who are warriors don't act like asses, and are the best suited to defend me and mine. The whole of society today is just too soft for words - and if there are service people who would act as you say, then they are soft as well and should be returned home to make room for military members who understand that it is country first, above everything. Yeah, including sex. They can still have sex, as it has always been handled when fighting in foreign locales, and that doesn't involve fellow military members.

If some members are so distracted that they can't kill people and break things, I can only imagine should they be captured how easily they will be broken themselves, putting everyone at risk. Combat isn't for sissies, and a lack of self control and discipline only aids one's enemies. I believe the strongest survive, and I can't imagine why I wouldn't want the military to strive for that goal. A military that accommodates the lowest common denominator rather than pushing for strength is one that has given up, and I don't think Americans roll that way.

 

[Tiamat214]

oh come on. no one yet? guess i will have to do it.

i guess we now know the what the phrase:load the torpedo means.

 

[tanstaafl]

Maybe he was just showing her the tattoo on his.... uh.....nevermind.

D_el alluded to it, but maybe the guy had a tattoo saying "Welcome aboard!" and the woman was "almost out of her uniform" ("Down Periscope," 1996, with Kelsey Grammer and Lauren Holly).

 

[medic38572]

D_el alluded to it, but maybe the guy had a tattoo saying "Welcome aboard!" and the woman was "almost out of her uniform" ("Down Periscope," 1996, with Kelsey Grammer and Lauren Holly).

Definitely someone went down for this to happen!!!

 

[Kent]

Good way to weed out those who have no self control.

Self Control? These are men and women around 20 years old with the urge to merge. The military has had them separated until the last few years for a reason. Just because other nations jump off a cliff does not mean we should follow. You said combat isn't for sissies, and you believe the strongest survive. That means keeping women out of combat off ships and boats.

 

[night driver]

{snipish}
You said combat isn't for sissies, and you believe the strongest survive. That means keeping women out of combat off ships and boats.

Kent, the knuckle dragger in me AGREES WITH YOU.

The researcher in me notes that IN GENERAL (yeah well, broad brush coming) women have tested out better at specific technical control tasks than IN GENERAL men. Sonar, radar, piloting, etc.

And the knuckle dragger says "Don't care. Don't want to have to think with both heads at the same time. NOR do I want my Chivalrous instincts to kick in in a pinch."

Clearly I'm of multiple minds on the issue.

And I freely admit my potential lack of standing in the discussion due to a lack of experience -- beyond my own experiences working hot tracks (co-ed teams) and working as a paramedic (on coed squads) in "interesting" situations when they came up.

 

[Kable]

Gives a whole new meaning to the term "hot-racking"... (like they REALLY didn't expect this to happen?)

 

[BadMedicine]

She thought "Submarine" was the submissive partner of a jar-head.

 

[Kent]

Kent, the knuckle dragger in me AGREES WITH YOU.

The researcher in me notes that IN GENERAL (yeah well, broad brush coming) women have tested out better at specific technical control tasks than IN GENERAL men. Sonar, radar, piloting, etc.

And I freely admit my potential lack of standing in the discussion due to a lack of experience -- beyond my own experiences working hot tracks (co-ed teams) and working as a paramedic (on coed squads) in "interesting" situations when they came up.

I have been supervising men and women working together for 25 years. Women, in general, do better detail work in the tech field we work in every day. The spouse of one of them served on a sub. The IT guy I work with served on a sub. I have toured a decommissioned sub. I am familiar with all the ingredients, though not an expert (what man can be an expert on women anyway? ) on any of them. The Navy estimates between 1989-1990, 5% of women on ships were pregnant at any given time. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/navy/plus/cron.html I think you will find this number a lot higher in the cramped environment on subs.

No doubt that women CAN do the job in subs, the question is SHOULD they. SHOULD you mix young men and women in a cramped environment 24/7 for months at a time? I would think an all woman sub would work better.

 

[ssbn642blue]

Maybe an all women submarine....????

Missile Tech (SS), 10 years active. A long time ago

Been there, done that, the Submarine force is a tight knit group, we have to be. Our lives depended on each other 24/7. We don't trust non-qual dinks and we sure in the hell didn't want women on the boat. We didn't have enough room to store S%@t paper much less that what women need.

And it's also a manpower issue and always has been. Let me explain. Say a woman crew member gets pregnant, and she is due to deliver during a patrol cycle, where do we get her replacement? It's not like a union hall you can call to get another Qualified replacement.

Social engineering is wrong everywhere. But on the boats, it could be deadly.

 

[Metolius]

Self Control? These are men and women around 20 years old with the urge to merge. The military has had them separated until the last few years for a reason. Just because other nations jump off a cliff does not mean we should follow. You said combat isn't for sissies, and you believe the strongest survive. That means keeping women out of combat off ships and boats.

Next, we'd better issue rubber bullets, because real bullets hurt. Seriously, didn't anyone from the previous generations explain what is available in every port for randy young men and women? And that unless they could refrain from acting like a rutting animal until then, they are out of a career? They cannot grasp the concept that they enjoy will merely be delayed, not denied? Teach 'em, because they are merely being lazy about because apparently no one is cracking the whip on this.

Yeah, self control. The people most suited for the hardest military jobs have it, present in both sexes. That really shouldn't be a foreign concept, nor merely something foreigners are capable of utilizing. If the urge to merge is instinctual, then it applies to all humans - thus, if other humans can control the urge long enough to function as a cohesive unit, then it is an achievable goal. I do not believe other nations are capable of doing things that we Americans cannot do.

If it wasn't possible to control the natural instinct of the urge to merge, we would have to legalize incest, as we surely couldn't control the urge to merge between young people who are brothers, sisters or other relatives in any way, right? Fact is, we do. There are issues doing it, and we deal. Some do it anyway, we crack their heads whenever possible, even imprison them if they are weak linked mouth breathers about it. Not perfect, nor will it be in the military, but I do expect them to come a damn sight closer to perfection on this than the rest of society due to the amount of control the higherups have over their "20 year olds with the urge to merge."

We pay good money to have a strong minded, disciplined military defending us and the free world - the sooner they crack heads on this, the better for us all.

 

[ssbn642blue]

Kent, the knuckle dragger in me AGREES WITH YOU.

The researcher in me notes that IN GENERAL (yeah well, broad brush coming) women have tested out better at specific technical control tasks than IN GENERAL men. Sonar, radar, piloting, etc.

And the knuckle dragger says "Don't care. Don't want to have to think with both heads at the same time. NOR do I want my Chivalrous instincts to kick in in a pinch."

Clearly I'm of multiple minds on the issue.

And I freely admit my potential lack of standing in the discussion due to a lack of experience -- beyond my own experiences working hot tracks (co-ed teams) and working as a paramedic (on coed squads) in "interesting" situations when they came up.

Then the researcher in you may find these studies interesting concerning this very topic.


The Navy commissioned a private contractor, Science Applications International Corporation (SAIC) to conduct a study into the feasibility of placing women on submarines. A link to that study (.pdf file) is below.
http://cmrlink.org/CMRNotes/SAPA 020195.pdf

Then we have this, from a retired Rear Admiral Undersea Medical Officer:

http://cmrlink.org/CMRNotes/HPScott 061200.pdf

And finally, the Navy's answer to an inquiry made by DACOWITS concerning the assignment of women to submarine crews.

http://cmrlink.org/CMRNotes/NAVY-DACOWITS_0295.pdf

Some of these are a quite a bit of reading but well worth it to better explain the problem when writing to a legislator or arguing this issue with the less enlightened and misinformed.

 

[Dobbin]

That's what I like about this forum - such a VARIETY of beings inhabit.

Want to know X? Someone here eats X for breakfast and can tell you all about it.

Gosh! Such a resource!

Joe

 

[topcat46]

Just what you would expect when you feminize the military and try to feminize the men in the military.

This is part of the war on men where men are expected to unnaturally repress their natural sexual instincts and masculinity to achieve the leftist fantasy of "equality".

 

[LittleJohn]

I would think an all woman sub would work better.

Holy cow, man! Don't you know when a group of women work in close proximity to each other they all start to cycle AT THE SAME TIME!!!!

I don't think we need put that kind of weaponry in the hands of a couple hundred PMSing soldiers.


LittleJohn

 

[nharrold]

Then the researcher in you may find these studies interesting concerning this very topic.


The Navy commissioned a private contractor, Science Applications International Corporation (SAIC) to conduct a study into the feasibility of placing women on submarines. A link to that study (.pdf file) is below.
http://cmrlink.org/CMRNotes/SAPA%20020195.pdf

Then we have this, from a retired Rear Admiral Undersea Medical Officer:

http://cmrlink.org/CMRNotes/HPScott 061200.pdf

And finally, the Navy's answer to an inquiry made by DACOWITS concerning the assignment of women to submarine crews.

http://cmrlink.org/CMRNotes/NAVY-DACOWITS_0295.pdf

Some of these are a quite a bit of reading but well worth it to better explain the problem when writing to a legislator or arguing this issue with the less enlightened and misinformed.

Read all of your references, thanks for posting them; a lot of effort seems to have gone into them. Unfortunately, it appears that today's PC navy hasn't read them, or that it needs to read them again.

Without getting into a pissing contest with the feminazis, I'll only add that following my years of sea duty, I became totally convinced that women do not belong on ships in general nor on warships particularly. That statement usually results in a chorus of whining that men think women are not capable of the various technical tasks required on shipboard, which is neither the case nor the issue. And having said that, I'll think I'll just depart from this discussion before I have a migraine...

 

[ssbn642blue]

Today's PC Military is nothing like it was when I was in. ( Yes, I know WE ALL say that).

But being a submariner, women have no place on the boats. It's not that they can't do the job, it's that the job does not suit them biologically,(as in getting pregnant, and due during our patrol cycle).

That is one of the problems to women being on the boats. Other than that, the men aboard the boats don't want them there to begin with. THE BIGGEST ISSUE.

Too much disruption.

 

[ssbn642blue]

WOW, Whitney Houston has more replies then this thread.

 

[Kent]

But being a submariner, women have no place on the boats.

Welcome to the knuckle dragger club fellow knuckle dragger. Don't you know the Feminazis are not to be denied?

 

[ssbn642blue]

And Thank You for your service. I doubt anyone has told you that lately.

And if they have, just say thank you.......

 

[Metolius]

Femi nazis - such a nice way of saying "thank you for your service".

I wonder if there is still anyone left who might respond to that label by wilting. I seriously doubt it. I too will leave this thread to others, because the issue has already been settled, and looks like all that's left is the crying about it.

 

[seeking one]

Just what you would expect when you feminize the military and try to feminize the men in the military.

This is part of the war on men where men are expected to unnaturally repress their natural sexual instincts and masculinity to achieve the leftist fantasy of "equality".

Are you serious? You sound like a Muslim. Keep women in burkas so YOU are not tempted. Really Sad. If you can't keep it in your pants, you don't need to serve in the military. The punishment should be very harsh for those who violate the rules of fraternization. It has NO PLACE in the military. Save it until you are on leave or discharged!

 

[Richard]

Is there anything else to do in a submarine?