ALERT RUSSIA INVADES UKRAINE - Consolidated Thread

Squid

Veteran Member
The election is over. How do we know? Because the msm has all but buried the Ukraine-Russian war.

The death and destruction served its purpose and now MI5/MI6/CIA move to other regions. Zelensky thought he was a knight or Bishop is starting to wake up to the fact that even with hundreds of millions pocketed away Ukraine and Zelensky are and were just pawns, and sacrificial pawns at that.

Russia has pushed back against Nato expansion and taken hits as well.

Europe is trying to win a winless battle. The progressive’s Europeans are attempting to escalate the war before Trump takes office to try to pin Trump down. This maybe another bridge too far and could actually push the US away from Nato.

Europe cannot afford their social welfare programs and to attempt to militarize. Everybody knows this especially Putin. All the threats and provocations are done using American military and American force to back it up. Europe is threatening Russia with the US not Europe. Europe needs to shut-up and sit down, or we may just decide being linked to a psychotic Europe is no longer worth the price. And you can be sure we will let Russia know on are way out that Europe’s actions are all on Europe.
 

Cedar Lake

Connecticut Yankee
The election is over. How do we know? Because the msm has all but buried the Ukraine-Russian war.

The death and destruction served its purpose and now MI5/MI6/CIA move to other regions. Zelensky thought he was a knight or Bishop is starting to wake up to the fact that even with hundreds of millions pocketed away Ukraine and Zelensky are and were just pawns, and sacrificial pawns at that.

Russia has pushed back against Nato expansion and taken hits as well.

Europe is trying to win a winless battle. The progressive’s Europeans are attempting to escalate the war before Trump takes office to try to pin Trump down. This maybe another bridge too far and could actually push the US away from Nato.

Europe cannot afford their social welfare programs and to attempt to militarize. Everybody knows this especially Putin. All the threats and provocations are done using American military and American force to back it up. Europe is threatening Russia with the US not Europe. Europe needs to shut-up and sit down, or we may just decide being linked to a psychotic Europe is no longer worth the price. And you can be sure we will let Russia know on are way out that Europe’s actions are all on Europe.
Europe cannot afford..................................
Yep.
 

northern watch

TB Fanatic

Boris Johnson Calls For NATO Troops On The Ground In Ukraine Yet Again​

ZERO HEDGE
by Tyler Durden
Friday, Nov 29, 2024 - 11:05 AM

After months of rumors surrounding possible peace talks in Turkey that might have ended the war in Ukraine not long after it reignited in 2022, multiple sources confirmed that British Politician and former PM Boris Johnson showed up in Kyiv to dismiss the negotiations and told the Ukrainians "let's just fight". These sources include David Arahamiya, the leader of Ukraine’s ruling party, Tory MP Nadine Dorries and Vladimir Putin himself.

Johnson continues to deny the peace deal claims and "fact checkers" engage in extensive mental gymnastics to argue that there was no "official deal" put to paper, therefore Johnson didn't sabotage anything. In other words, if a politician ruins a peace deal in its infancy before it is drafted then he's not culpable for the war that follows.

The bottom line? Johnson, a prominent British official with ties to NATO, showed up in the middle of early negotiations and told the Ukrainians to fight instead of pursuing peace. This alone would have given the Ukrainians a false sense of security that NATO forces would intervene and fight for them.


Boris Johnson would go on to promote a surge in military recruitment in the UK, and supported calls for conscription from military officials. He has also suggested NATO boots on the ground in the region on multiple occasions - A move that would immediately be seen by Russia as an escalation to world war.

In a recent interview with the Daily Telegraph, the former British PM promoted the idea of British forces entering Ukraine as a part of a "peacekeeping plan." The presence of any NATO country's troops in Ukraine, even those not on the front line, would be seen as a tip-toe towards direct confrontation by the Kremlin.

In early November, Johnson argued that if Donald Trump pulled US support for Ukraine in order to force a peace deal, Britain might send troops into the fray. The argument sounds like a thinly veiled threat: If the US tries to force a peace deal, then Britain will send troops, escalate the war and ensure that no peace is possible.

Johnson also asserted that if Russia gets the upper hand in the conflict then Britain may deploy it's forces regardless in order to "defend Europe." Ukraine's eastern defenses are currently being overrun by ongoing Russian attrition tactics. This reality in combination with Trump's avalanche election win seems to have triggered establishment ghouls into a frenzy of escalation with Joe Biden giving the greenlight on long range missile strikes coordinated directly by NATO forces.

To be clear, Ukraine is not part of the EU nor is it a member of NATO. NATO warhawks like Johnson have consistently claimed that Russia's intent is to invade greater Europe (domino effect propaganda similar to the Vietnam War), yet there is still no evidence to support this. The western media has spent the better part of the conflagration claiming that Russian forces have been chewed up beyond repair in Ukraine; at the same time they suggest Russia somehow has the strength to invade the EU.

The majority of the US and European public have confirmed time and time again that they will not support direct conflict with Russia. They will not volunteer to fight in such a war and will not submit to military conscription. Around 70% of Americans say they prefer negotiations to end the war. Only 10% of Europeans believe Ukraine can win and 52% of Ukrainians say they want negotiations and a quick end to the war. Despite this, establishment politicians continue to ignore the overwhelming calls for peace in Ukraine.

 

Abert

Veteran Member
Interesting writeup by John Helmer in his Dancing with Bears Site. NOTE He is Pro Russian and reporting out of Moscow
HINT: For an easer read - click on the Print this post under the headline - great for older eyes!

Some background on the origin of the current Trump Ceasefire "PLAN" and extensive details on the damage to Ukraine's Electric grid. Note first part is on the "PLAN" - grid damage about half way in.

THE ELECTRIC WAR ESCALATES TO FINAL STAGE – LIGHTS OUT IN THE UKRAINE, IN GENERAL KELLOGG’S BRAIN TOO


The damage assessments of yesterday’s November 28 electric war strikes against targets across the Ukraine spell the countrywide collapse of electricity supply before January 20, when the new Trump Administration will take office.

By then, the Russian General Staff will have deprived Keith Kellogg, the retired US Army general newly appointed to serve as Trump’s negotiator for end-of-war terms, of the options he has publicly declared for himself, and also for Trump, in their war to make America great again in Europe.


On the PLAN
Kellogg said this in February 2023, after he had returned from a sponsored trip to Kiev and to the eastern region of the country. Subsequently, he was paid to write an end-of-war strategy paper for Trump to use during the last months of the election campaign this year. This focused on attacking the Biden Administration for weakening the US and the NATO allies on the battlefield, and also in Europe. Trump’s “geo-strategic” priority remained, Kellogg wrote, to prevent “Ukraine fatigue among the Europeans, threatening to leave the United States, once again, as the primary defence contributor to Europe and further straining America’s ability to maintain its own critical defence stockpiles.”

Grid Damage and Cost
Last month on October 3, Samantha Power, the Biden Administration’s chief of the US Agency for International Development (USAID), advertised US aid to rebuild the Ukrainian electricity grid, standing in front of a destroyed autotransformer at a substation in west Ukraine whose name and location she concealed. “USAID is doubling our investments in replacing autotransformers and in providing protection to the energy infrastructure that remains,” Power said. “Thanks to the support of the American people, USAID is working to keep the lights on and to keep the heat going this winter.” Until February of this year USAID spent $422 million on US-made equipment for the Ukrainian electricity system. Then in September Power announced another $325 million for repair and replacement of Ukrainian losses in the electric war.
 

Abert

Veteran Member
Related to the above - from CNN - a somewhat PRO US outlet.

Trump’s Ukraine envoy has a plan to end the war that Putin may revel in​


High Points:
  • If Russia agrees to negotiations, it will receive a limited easing of sanctions.
  • A complete lifting of sanctions will take place only if a peace agreement is concluded that Kiev likes.
  • Russian energy exports will be subject to a special fee that will pay for the restoration of Ukraine.
  • Ukraine should not abandon the occupied territories, but undertakes to seek their return only through diplomatic means.
  • Kellogg admits that this will only be possible after Putin is removed from power.
  • US continues to arm Ukraine
As opposed to a plan for discussion this reads more like terms of surrender for Russia.
What is amassing is this is being covered in the US and EU as something that likely will happen - a done deal

What does Russia get out of this
  • Some (limited) Sanctions lifted out of the 20,000 or so - naturally NEW ones could be put in place for any reason
  • Total Sanctions remove only with approval from Kiev (never)
  • Never ending "TAX" on Russian energy to fund Ukraine rebuilding (and pay for new arms)
  • Zero recognition of new Russian provinces - all would be considered illegal occupations - to be taken back in the future. New WAR.
The fastest way to get Putin out of office would be for him to even consider any part of this.
 

wait-n-see

Veteran Member
Not looking good for the little dictator when even the MSM propagandist sites print this, eh?

@@@

‘Like dealing with cornered rats’: The men who force Ukrainians to the front lines

From Yahoo News

The Telegraph
Lucy DuVall
Thu, November 28, 2024

Ukrainian recruits go through an obstacle course as part of their training


Every morning, Artem signs on for work as one of Ukraine’s feared recruitment officers in his home town somewhere in the country’s war-torn East.

After a short briefing, his team decides where they will go: some are sent to cafés, restaurants, even nightclubs – anywhere where young men of fighting age might be found. Then, the difficult work begins.

“Sometimes it’s like dealing with a cornered rat,” Artem told The Telegraph, as he explained how he gets his targets into vans and off to desperate military recruitment centres.

“They continue fighting even while in the vehicle. Those who resist always threaten to take revenge on our guys or their families,” he added.

Ukraine’s military is suffering a chronic manpower crisis as the Russian army advances at its fastest pace since the war began.

Washington is now pressing Kyiv to lower the mobilisation age from 25 to 18 to replace its battlefield losses and help withstand Russia’s offensive.

The country’s very survival depends on how many extra bodies Artem’s team can get to the trenches – and how fast.

Artem, who asked not to use his real name, works for the Territorial Centre of Recruitment and Social Support (TCC) – something he would not tell his family or friends.

The work of the TCC has been thrust into the spotlight by viral videos of men in camouflage stopping others on the streets and dragging them off to join the army.

Emergency recruitment has now turned into a game of cat and mouse, with sightings of TCC officers posted in online chat groups to warn refuseniks.

Young men in the chat groups secretly talk of limiting the number of times they leave their homes and avoiding subways or busy city centres where they might be captured.

TCC officers such as Artem are painted as brutal and ruthless kidnappers willing to go to extreme measures to reach their monthly quota of new military recruits.

Artem, a 28-year-old husband and father of one, agreed to speak to The Telegraph anonymously and under the condition his home town would not be revealed, for fear of reprisals.

TCC officers have responsibility for military conscription in Ukraine and must ensure all men in Ukraine of fighting age, currently 18 to 60, are registered for military service.

Many men in Ukraine are already registered in the country’s military database.

But others have been evading the requirement for nearly three years, hoping not to be enlisted, lest they come home from the front lines maimed or in a body bag, like so many of their compatriots.

Artem said that each morning, the TCC officers meet for their daily briefing before dispersing to various areas of his city to begin their work.

Some officers go to military checkpoints at key entry and exit points from the city, while others patrol the streets and stop any men they encounter.

“Some teams move around the city by vehicle in constant search mode,” he said. “We have areas where our groups work almost constantly – mostly transportation hubs, but sometimes we leave these spots so people don’t become accustomed to avoiding them.”

The officers frequently work at market entrances, parks, beaches, cafes, and areas near factories or other businesses where men work, Artem said.

He confirmed he had targets to meet, and said: “Due to understaffing, we barely choose whom to stop – now nearly everyone is subject to inspection.”

When he first began working for TCC, Artem said, he did not stop men who appeared to be “visibly weak individuals” – but now he does.

“Almost always, adrenaline speaks for itself. Even those whose documents are in order still show fear,” he said.

Those with documents ordinarily have severe injuries that bar them from serving, are students or volunteers, or are working with international journalists.

However, at times, documents have been forged, and some men pay thousands of dollars to receive them. Artem’s team is responsible for verifying them.

After the men are rounded up into vans, Artem said, they are then forced to take a military medical examination. Those who pass are forced to a training centre to prepare to be sent to the front lines.

“Previously, we allowed people to go home and pack, but lately, they don’t return voluntarily. They hide and don’t show up. Sometimes, we have to confiscate their phones depending on the situation,” he said.

Some men have no way of telling their family and friends where they are. The Telegraph has received unverified Instagram stories from sources that show people frantically looking for anyone who might have been in contact with their loved ones recently, and adding that they are afraid that the TCC has abducted them.

One woman in Kyiv posted that she was searching for her ex-boyfriend, who had been missing for a few days. A few hours later, she posted a second story that she had found him – he had been forced to the front lines already.

On Telegram, a channel called “Weather Kyiv” where residents post recent sightings of TCC officers, has more than 104,000 subscribers; these include images and videos of men dressed in camouflage, stopping men on the streets and writing them documents.

The subscribers claim the men are TCC officers and, several times a day, the channel posts where in Kyiv men should avoid. Red exclamation marks show where officers might be while sun emojis show alleged safe areas.

One man, who subscribes to Weather Kyiv and asked to be referred to as “Basiley”, told The Telegraph: “Men who have an age that is appropriate for military drafting are scared to walk freely in the street. If you go in the Kyiv subway, you will see youths under 25, people in military uniform, or elderly people, but not guys from 25 to 40, because we are scared.”

Basiley is 35 and said he avoids any unnecessary trips to Kyiv’s city centre. When Basiley leaves his home, he said he feels anxious, afraid of any large car moving

Speaking of TCC using force to send men to the military, Basiley said: “It’s a serious problem because people understand that this is a one-way road. We don’t have any specific limits of time that people have to serve in the military, and when you’re taken, it’s forever. In many cases, this bitter end happens very fast.

“You’re basically afraid to walk from your home,” he added.

Artem has been working as a TCC officer for more than one and a half years, and said he took the job because he enjoys “being part of the system”.

He said when he first started working with the TCC he felt pity and compassion for his targets.

“I’ve learned to control my emotions during work, and now it’s just a job for me. I always have the argument: It’s either them or me,” he said.

He added: “I believe it’s better to work for TCC than to hide from it.”
 

von Koehler

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Related to the above - from CNN - a somewhat PRO US outlet.

Trump’s Ukraine envoy has a plan to end the war that Putin may revel in​


High Points:
  • If Russia agrees to negotiations, it will receive a limited easing of sanctions.
  • A complete lifting of sanctions will take place only if a peace agreement is concluded that Kiev likes.
  • Russian energy exports will be subject to a special fee that will pay for the restoration of Ukraine.
  • Ukraine should not abandon the occupied territories, but undertakes to seek their return only through diplomatic means.
  • Kellogg admits that this will only be possible after Putin is removed from power.
  • US continues to arm Ukraine
As opposed to a plan for discussion this reads more like terms of surrender for Russia.
What is amassing is this is being covered in the US and EU as something that likely will happen - a done deal

What does Russia get out of this
  • Some (limited) Sanctions lifted out of the 20,000 or so - naturally NEW ones could be put in place for any reason
  • Total Sanctions remove only with approval from Kiev (never)
  • Never ending "TAX" on Russian energy to fund Ukraine rebuilding (and pay for new arms)
  • Zero recognition of new Russian provinces - all would be considered illegal occupations - to be taken back in the future. New WAR.
The fastest way to get Putin out of office would be for him to even consider any part of this.

Putin would never agree to these terms.
 

wait-n-see

Veteran Member
Related to the above - from CNN - a somewhat PRO US outlet.

Trump’s Ukraine envoy has a plan to end the war that Putin may revel in​


High Points:
  • If Russia agrees to negotiations, it will receive a limited easing of sanctions.
  • A complete lifting of sanctions will take place only if a peace agreement is concluded that Kiev likes.
  • Russian energy exports will be subject to a special fee that will pay for the restoration of Ukraine.
  • Ukraine should not abandon the occupied territories, but undertakes to seek their return only through diplomatic means.
  • Kellogg admits that this will only be possible after Putin is removed from power.
  • US continues to arm Ukraine
As opposed to a plan for discussion this reads more like terms of surrender for Russia.
What is amassing is this is being covered in the US and EU as something that likely will happen - a done deal

What does Russia get out of this
  • Some (limited) Sanctions lifted out of the 20,000 or so - naturally NEW ones could be put in place for any reason
  • Total Sanctions remove only with approval from Kiev (never)
  • Never ending "TAX" on Russian energy to fund Ukraine rebuilding (and pay for new arms)
  • Zero recognition of new Russian provinces - all would be considered illegal occupations - to be taken back in the future. New WAR.
The fastest way to get Putin out of office would be for him to even consider any part of this.

Spot on.

What a joke. A complete surrender of Russia, and then trying to bribe Russia back to the dollar in an effort to kill BRICS.

Hopefully the west soon stops smoking what ever the heck they are smoking and face reality, as the end is just getting worse for them the longer it takes.
 

Abert

Veteran Member
Putin would never agree to these terms.
100% agree with you on this.

It is very likely Trump got Kellogg to draft this "plan" more to provide talking points against Biden for the election than as something that could actually be put in place. Kellogg is no fool and I am sure he was aware of what he was being expected to write - what the payor waned as a final product.
Two requirements - Biden messed up the Ukraine war - a (at first read) plan that could end the war in a few days.
He earned his pay on drafting this document.

As you point out there is no way for Russia to accept this - however it could be something Ukraine would accept. Something for them to agree to sit at the table - however it is unlikely anyone will be on the other side.

For Ukraine the fighting stops, the money keeps flowing, they do not have to accept any loss of land and could expect to get it all back in the future. Plus they control the Sanction levers over Russia.

No objective observer would view this "Plan" has having any possibility of being put in place - yet we have extensive comments from EU / NATO leader on what and how they will implement and support the ceasefire as if it was a forgone conclusion. As in the latest from UK's Johnson on using UK troops post ceasefire
 

Knoxville's Joker

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Related to the above - from CNN - a somewhat PRO US outlet.

Trump’s Ukraine envoy has a plan to end the war that Putin may revel in​


High Points:
  • If Russia agrees to negotiations, it will receive a limited easing of sanctions.
  • A complete lifting of sanctions will take place only if a peace agreement is concluded that Kiev likes.
  • Russian energy exports will be subject to a special fee that will pay for the restoration of Ukraine.
  • Ukraine should not abandon the occupied territories, but undertakes to seek their return only through diplomatic means.
  • Kellogg admits that this will only be possible after Putin is removed from power.
  • US continues to arm Ukraine
As opposed to a plan for discussion this reads more like terms of surrender for Russia.
What is amassing is this is being covered in the US and EU as something that likely will happen - a done deal

What does Russia get out of this
  • Some (limited) Sanctions lifted out of the 20,000 or so - naturally NEW ones could be put in place for any reason
  • Total Sanctions remove only with approval from Kiev (never)
  • Never ending "TAX" on Russian energy to fund Ukraine rebuilding (and pay for new arms)
  • Zero recognition of new Russian provinces - all would be considered illegal occupations - to be taken back in the future. New WAR.
The fastest way to get Putin out of office would be for him to even consider any part of this.
Russia will never agree to this. Honestly if they do things improperly, it could cause us to see a flooding of Chinese troops to hold established line while big pushes occur. Has it occurred to anyone how badly this could blow up or backfire?
 

Old Greek

Veteran Member
Russia will never agree to this. Honestly if they do things improperly, it could cause us to see a flooding of Chinese troops to hold established line while big pushes occur. Has it occurred to anyone how badly this could blow up or backfire?
Russia would correctly tell us to "shove it". Stupid "offer" IMHO. We basically started the war by lying about NATO expansion year after year.
 

Knoxville's Joker

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Russia would correctly tell us to "shove it". Stupid "offer" IMHO. We basically started the war by lying about NATO expansion year after year.
I also think there would hopefully be deeper discussions outlining the atrocities at the hands of the ukrainians and the fact that no treaty or agreement has been offered, so why accept a limiting one now?
 

Abert

Veteran Member
100% agree with you on this.

It is very likely Trump got Kellogg to draft this "plan" more to provide talking points against Biden for the election than as something that could actually be put in place. Kellogg is no fool and I am sure he was aware of what he was being expected to write - what the payor waned as a final product.
Two requirements - Biden messed up the Ukraine war - a (at first read) plan that could end the war in a few days.
He earned his pay on drafting this document.

As you point out there is no way for Russia to accept this - however it could be something Ukraine would accept. Something for them to agree to sit at the table - however it is unlikely anyone will be on the other side.

For Ukraine the fighting stops, the money keeps flowing, they do not have to accept any loss of land and could expect to get it all back in the future. Plus they control the Sanction levers over Russia.

No objective observer would view this "Plan" has having any possibility of being put in place - yet we have extensive comments from EU / NATO leader on what and how they will implement and support the ceasefire as if it was a forgone conclusion. As in the latest from UK's Johnson on using UK troops post ceasefire
Looks like Ukraine is OK with the plan - surprise - surprise:

Zelensky willing to cede territory to Russia in exchange for NATO protection — in stark departure from previous stance​


Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky is willing to hand over territory to Russia in exchange for NATO protection if it means ending the war.

“If we want to stop the hot stage of the war, we should take under [the] NATO umbrella the territory of Ukraine that we have under our control,” Zelensky said through a translator in an interview with Sky News Friday.


Then the key line:
“That’s what we need to do fast, and then Ukraine can get back the other part of its territory diplomatically.”

100% the Trump plan - end the hot war and retake land - later.
 

wait-n-see

Veteran Member
Looks like Ukraine is OK with the plan - surprise - surprise:

Zelensky willing to cede territory to Russia in exchange for NATO protection — in stark departure from previous stance​


Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky is willing to hand over territory to Russia in exchange for NATO protection if it means ending the war.

“If we want to stop the hot stage of the war, we should take under [the] NATO umbrella the territory of Ukraine that we have under our control,” Zelensky said through a translator in an interview with Sky News Friday.


Then the key line:
“That’s what we need to do fast, and then Ukraine can get back the other part of its territory diplomatically.”

100% the Trump plan - end the hot war and retake land - later.

The little dictator loses nothing by accepting the plan as he knows Russia will never accept complete surrender.

Good propaganda. For the clueless, he will look like the one willing to talk for peace.

The result is still either WWIIII or peace on Putin's stated terms. The only question now is how much more death and destruction of Ukraine before Trump comes to understand that reality.
 

Knoxville's Joker

Has No Life - Lives on TB
The little dictator loses nothing by accepting the plan as he knows Russia will never accept complete surrender.

Good propaganda. For the clueless, he will look like the one willing to talk for peace.

The result is still either WWIIII or peace on Putin's stated terms. The only question now is how much more death and destruction of Ukraine before Trump comes to understand that reality.
It really depends on how much filtered the information Trump gets is.
 

rlm1966

Veteran Member
The fastest way to get Putin out of office would be for him to even consider any part of this.
This is going to be a non-starter. If this is Trump's plan then go ahead and pencil in nuclear sometime in next 2 - 3 months. Why would Russia even consider this as a reasonable, based on facts on the ground proposal.
 

mistaken1

Has No Life - Lives on TB
snip
To be clear, Ukraine is not part of the EU nor is it a member of NATO. NATO warhawks like Johnson have consistently claimed that Russia's intent is to invade greater Europe (domino effect propaganda similar to the Vietnam War), yet there is still no evidence to support this. The western media has spent the better part of the conflagration claiming that Russian forces have been chewed up beyond repair in Ukraine; at the same time they suggest Russia somehow has the strength to invade the EU.

Which is it? Are the ruskies going to collapse or overrun europe by the end of the year?
 

von Koehler

Has No Life - Lives on TB
100% agree with you on this.

It is very likely Trump got Kellogg to draft this "plan" more to provide talking points against Biden for the election than as something that could actually be put in place. Kellogg is no fool and I am sure he was aware of what he was being expected to write - what the payor waned as a final product.
Two requirements - Biden messed up the Ukraine war - a (at first read) plan that could end the war in a few days.
He earned his pay on drafting this document.

As you point out there is no way for Russia to accept this - however it could be something Ukraine would accept. Something for them to agree to sit at the table - however it is unlikely anyone will be on the other side.

For Ukraine the fighting stops, the money keeps flowing, they do not have to accept any loss of land and could expect to get it all back in the future. Plus they control the Sanction levers over Russia.

No objective observer would view this "Plan" has having any possibility of being put in place - yet we have extensive comments from EU / NATO leader on what and how they will implement and support the ceasefire as if it was a forgone conclusion. As in the latest from UK's Johnson on using UK troops post ceasefire

The truth is that only Trump knows what his plan is or isn't. Otherwise, it's just guesses or mere speculation.

We are just going to have to wait and then see what are the Russian and Ukrainian responses to his plan.
 

Abert

Veteran Member
The truth is that only Trump knows what his plan is or isn't. Otherwise, it's just guesses or mere speculation.

We are just going to have to wait and then see what are the Russian and Ukrainian responses to his plan.
General Kellogg has been named by Trump as his representative to Ukraine in relation to ending this conflict.
The Kellogg plan first floated up months ago and is now being presented as Trump's current baseline position.
So - YES - we do know what the plan is.

As for Russia - having already reviewed the basic outlines have clearly stated it is a non starter. So we do know how Russia will respond - they have already reviewed, responded and REJECTED it. So - YES we know Russia's position.

As for Ukraine - actually at this point what they want is effectively irrelevant. They are no longer in any way an independent agent or state. They are 100% dependent on the US and EU for both funding their government and military.

For the last 2+ years their firm / fixed position was the conflict would continue until ALL Russian troops were gone and their original borders were in their control - TODAY a total reversal - they will now trade land for putting what remains of Ukraine under NATO - as quick as can be arranged. Does not sound like a nation that is in a winning position. So YES - Ukraine has somewhat agreed to the plan - a modified NK/SK solution + NATO - We know their position.

So in summary.

  • Yes we know what the general plan and positions are.
  • Russia has formally rejected it
  • Ukraine - today - has generally accepted it.
It has been clear since the Kellogg / Trump plan was first pushed out that Russia would never agree and originally Ukraine also rejected it. - It was dead on arrival.

However Ukraine's current change and "ask" is just as dead on arrival - there are several NATO members that will block their membership. Their plan is just another - weak attempt - to somehow pull NATO into this.

The only thing out of all of this that is clear - Ukraine is on its last legs - if they saw any path to winning this they would never have taken this step. Russia which is winning has no reason to give up its gains or quit with victory in sight.
 
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Knoxville's Joker

Has No Life - Lives on TB
General Kellogg has been named by Trump as his representative to Ukraine in relation to ending this conflict.
The Kellogg plan first floated up months ago and is now being presented as Trump's current baseline position.
So - YES - we do know what the plan is.

As for Russia - having already reviewed the basic outlines have clearly stated it is a non starter. So we do know how Russia will respond - they have already reviewed, responded and REJECTED it. So - YES we know Russia's position.

As for Ukraine - actually at this point what they want is effectively irrelevant. They are no longer in any way an independent agent or state. They are 100% dependent on the US and EU for both funding their government and military.

For the last 2+ years their firm / fixed position was the conflict would continue until ALL Russian troops were gone and their original borders were in their control - TODAY a total reversal - they will now trade land for putting what remains of Ukraine under NATO - as quick as can be arranged. Does not sound like a nation that is in a winning position. So YES - Ukraine has somewhat agreed to the plan - a modified NK/SK solution + NATO - We know their position.

So in summary.

  • Yes we know what the general plan and positions are.
  • Russia has formally rejected it
  • Ukraine - today - has generally accepted it.
It has been clear since the Kellogg / Trump plan was first pushed out that Russia would never agree and originally Ukraine also rejected it. - It was dead on arrival.

However Ukraine's current change and "ask" is just a dead on arrival - there are several NATO members that will block their membership. Their plan is just another - weak attempt - to somehow pull NATO into this.

The only thing out of all of this that is clear - Ukraine is on its last legs - if they saw any path to winning this they would never have taken this step. Russia which is winning has no reason to give up its gains or quit with victory in sight.
And historically Russia has crushed any aggressors that acted against them...
 

mecoastie

Veteran Member
Which is it? Are the ruskies going to collapse or overrun europe by the end of the year?
It all depends on which YouTube feeds you watch. Each expert has their own opinion and can back it up with a myriad of facts.

Ukraine is losing. Anyone can see that. They are losing territory and they are 100% reliant on Western arms and running out of men. If they lose significant US aid how long can they last?

But what is happening to the Russian military? They are certainly taking some heavy losses. Are they sustainable? How is it that there is any bit of the Ukrainian Air Force left to launch British Storm Shadow and French SCALP missiles? Russia has almost complete air control. How are any HIMARS launchers left? Why hasn’t Russia taken out the supply routes from the West? Russias incredible new super weapon. Was it really super? Sitting here in my chair by the wood stove it seems that Russia has her own significant issues.
 

Cedar Lake

Connecticut Yankee
Ukraine has requested electricity imports from five countries due to electricity shortages

⚫The Kiev authorities are asking for help from Poland, Romania, Slovakia, Hungary and Moldova. This was reported by the Ukrainian Ministry of Energy.


Another 5 million refugees will leave Ukraine due to power and heating issues this winter, — The Times

Western officials expect millions of new Ukrainian refugees if heating and power networks fail due to Russian strikes. The risk of this happening is very high.

 
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CaryC

Has No Life - Lives on TB
General Kellogg has been named by Trump as his representative to Ukraine in relation to ending this conflict.
The Kellogg plan first floated up months ago and is now being presented as Trump's current baseline position.
So - YES - we do know what the plan is.

As for Russia - having already reviewed the basic outlines have clearly stated it is a non starter. So we do know how Russia will respond - they have already reviewed, responded and REJECTED it. So - YES we know Russia's position.

As for Ukraine - actually at this point what they want is effectively irrelevant. They are no longer in any way an independent agent or state. They are 100% dependent on the US and EU for both funding their government and military.

For the last 2+ years their firm / fixed position was the conflict would continue until ALL Russian troops were gone and their original borders were in their control - TODAY a total reversal - they will now trade land for putting what remains of Ukraine under NATO - as quick as can be arranged. Does not sound like a nation that is in a winning position. So YES - Ukraine has somewhat agreed to the plan - a modified NK/SK solution + NATO - We know their position.

So in summary.

  • Yes we know what the general plan and positions are.
  • Russia has formally rejected it
  • Ukraine - today - has generally accepted it.
It has been clear since the Kellogg / Trump plan was first pushed out that Russia would never agree and originally Ukraine also rejected it. - It was dead on arrival.

However Ukraine's current change and "ask" is just as dead on arrival - there are several NATO members that will block their membership. Their plan is just another - weak attempt - to somehow pull NATO into this.

The only thing out of all of this that is clear - Ukraine is on its last legs - if they saw any path to winning this they would never have taken this step. Russia which is winning has no reason to give up its gains or quit with victory in sight.
Art of the Deal.

Ask for the Moon, demand the Moon, and hopefully after negotiations it will end close to what you wanted in the first place.

So any "Asks" anyone is hearing NOW is for the Moon.
 

CaryC

Has No Life - Lives on TB

Playing Nuclear Chicken​

by Tyler Durden
Friday, Nov 29, 2024 - 02:05 PM
Authored by James Rickards via DailyReckoning.com,
We continue to climb steadily up the World War III escalation ladder.
Last week, Biden foolishly gave Ukraine the green light to strike deep into Russian territory using U.S. missiles.
Now Russia has responded, as Putin promised they would.

On November 21st Russia launched a new hypersonic missile known as the Oreshnik. It is a unique weapon designed to send a clear message.

The Oreshnik utilizes a system similar to MIRV (multiple independently targetable reentry vehicle) technology common on nuclear ICBMs.

This new missile has 6 warheads which each have 6 submunitions. That’s 36 projectiles per missile in total.
Here is a still shot of one of the sets of 6 submunitions just before reaching its target.

It is important to note that the projectiles are not glowing due to rocket engines firing. The warheads separated from the booster engine at a much higher altitude and are now gliding.

The submunitions are glowing due to the plasma bubble created by friction against the dense atmosphere at speeds of around Mach 10 (7,600 mph). That’s 2.1 miles per second.

At such speeds, even if the Oreshnik’s submunitions lack significant explosive payloads, the kinetic energy alone would make for an effective strike asset. This is similar to the sci-fi weapon concept colloquially known as “rods from God”, in which inert tungsten rods are flung down from orbit.

The U.S. and NATO have no defense against the Oreshnik. Targeting 36 independent projectiles traveling at 7,600 mph is a fool’s errand. Striking the missile before the warheads separate is also unlikely, as it has a variable-speed solid rocket engine which makes its trajectory unpredictable.

This new missile adds to Russia’s impressive hypersonic arsenal:
  • Kinzhal – Mach 10 air-launched ballistic missile
  • Zircon – Mach 9 ship-launched cruise missile
  • Iskander – Mach 7 ground-launched ballistic missile
  • R-37M – Mach 6 air-to-air missile
Each of these weapons is fully operational, in full production, and has been used successfully during the Ukraine war. To date, these weapons have only been used with conventional explosives. But the first three can also be armed with nuclear warheads.

NATO air defenses have not found much if any, success against Russian hypersonics. And with new options such as the Oreshnik, which would likely target air defenses and ballistic missile sites, the balance in conventional weaponry in Ukraine has moved further in Russia’s favor.

Meanwhile, the U.S. is struggling to get our first hypersonic conventional missile, the Long-Range Hypersonic Weapon (LRHW), in service. The U.S. has long worked on hypersonic missiles, but the engineering challenges are extreme. Traveling at speeds of Mach 5+ generates massive amounts of heat and friction.

America’s bloated defense sector has been unable to meet the requirements so far. Hopefully, Trump finds success in revitalizing our military-industrial complex. Otherwise, we will continue to fall behind.

Nuclear Options

As Biden goads Russia, he is implicitly relying on America’s nuclear weapons stockpile as a deterrent. At this point, we cannot match Russia when it comes to conventional missile technology.

So when Biden willingly crosses Russia’s red lines, he is counting on the threat of American nuclear weapons to prevent full-out war. He also appears to be attempting to sabotage President Trump’s promise to end the war in Ukraine.
This is incredibly reckless behavior. One major problem is that Russia has an even larger and more modern nuclear arsenal.

If Moscow or a nuclear power plant is targeted by Ukraine using American missiles, there is a possibility that Russia retaliates with a nuclear strike. We are in essence calling their bluff. And they need to preserve their own defense deterrence posture, or they could look weak.

From there, things could get very ugly very quickly.

In a nuclear war, there are no winners. Biden and his handlers are playing a dangerous game. They are gambling with hundreds of millions of lives.

All of this is simply to drag out another unwinnable conflict. Have we learned nothing from the War on Terror? America’s reign as a lone superpower is over. That’s a reality that needs to sink in so U.S. policy can adapt accordingly.
The sooner the Deep State realizes this, the better off we’ll all be.

The lessons of the Cuban Missile Crisis were clear. Lesson One is to avoid escalation. Lesson Two is that if escalation begins, it’s crucial to de-escalate. Failure to abide by these lessons is a straight path to nuclear war.

Russia has signaled that it is ready to begin immediate negotiations with the Trump administration. Trump’s upcoming presidency may be the only thing preventing WW3.

Inauguration Day can’t come fast enough.

 


Small snip:

====
Well, at least things are progressing now. These are all the first necessary steps toward later acceptance of other, harsher realities.

To clarify: Zelensky says he would accept the current part of Ukraine being let into NATO, while not officially recognizing Russian de jure control of Donbass, etc., but simply de facto.

But now, things have progressed. On the heels of the above, Russia’s foreign intel agency SVR has released a statement indicating that the West is planning to introduce a 100,000 peacekeeper force to essentially occupy Ukraine, at the start of any ‘ceasefire’. As such, naturally, the SVR concludes no such ceasefire is beneficial to Russia; summary:

The West is planning to introduce 100,000 “peacekeepers” from NATO countries into Ukraine, as well as train at least a million Ukrainians in military affairs, the Russian Foreign Intelligence Service stated.
Before that, it is planned to freeze the conflict in order to have time to implement the plan. NATO is already deploying training centers in Ukraine, and is also actively working with the Western military-industrial complex, demanding investments from them and sending specialists and equipment to the Ukrainian Armed Forces.
Does Russia need such a peaceful settlement option? The answer is obvious, the SVR concluded.
Longer version, note the bolded below:

The press office of the Foreign Intelligence Service of the Russian Federation reports that, according to information received by the SVR, in the conditions of the obvious lack of prospects for inflicting a strategic defeat on Russia on the battlefield, NATO is increasingly inclined to the need to "freeze" the Ukrainian conflict. The West is considering the implementation of such a scenario as an opportunity to restore the combat capability of the Ukrainian Armed Forces and thoroughly prepare Kiev for an attempt at revenge. NATO is already deploying training centers in Ukraine, through which it is expected to drag at least a million mobilized Ukrainians. Another important area of the alliance's work during the truce will be the restoration of the Ukrainian military-industrial complex. Active work is underway with Western military-industrial companies, including the German Rheinmetall, from which they are required not only to invest, but also to send leading specialists and high-performance equipment to Ukraine. NATO headquarters understands that without providing the Ukrainian Armed Forces with sufficient weapons and ammunition, the expectation that the Ukrainians will be able to conduct high-intensity combat operations over a long period of time is unrealistic. To solve these problems, the West will need to actually occupy Ukraine. Naturally, this will be done under the guise of deploying a "peacekeeping contingent" in the country. The territories that are supposed to be distributed between the occupiers have been determined:
◾Black Sea coast – Romania;
◾️Western regions of Ukraine - Poland;
◾️the center and east of the country - Germany;
◾️The northern regions, including the capital region, are the United Kingdom.

In total, it is planned to introduce 100 thousand so-called peacekeepers into Ukraine. According to incoming information, the German military has already turned to the experience of the Nazi invaders establishing an occupation regime in Ukraine during the Great Patriotic War. At the same time, the Bundeswehr has come to the conclusion that it will be impossible to carry out police functions without Sonderkommandos of Ukrainian nationalists. They will come up with a new name, but in essence they will be the same Bandera punishers. Does Russia need such a peaceful settlement option? The answer is obvious.
Recall this is not only what France and UK were allegedly recently discussing, which I mentioned in the last report, but what Boris Johnson himself openly stated again just yesterday—listen:

end snip
======

Much more at link.

===
.
 

Cedar Lake

Connecticut Yankee
The price of gas in Europe increased by 21% in November

The price of gas in Europe increased by 21% in November — to $521 per 1,000 cubic meters.

⚫The main factors for the price growth were record withdrawals from European storage facilities amid a cold snap, statements about the cessation of fuel supplies from Russia to Austrian OMV, and risks for payment for supplies.

Capital Lab partner Evgeny Shatov previously expressed the opinion that by the end of 2024, the cost of gas in Europe could increase by 5-10%.

Serbian President Aleksandar Vucic also said that countries that consume liquefied natural gas from the US will be forced to ask for natural gas from Russia.


Hmm....December will be much worse beca:dhr:use Kyiv shuts down all transit of Russian gas to all of its E.U. customers.

The E..U. uses natural gas for heating and more importantly, uses natural gas to produce ELECTRICTY.

And today in other news, The Kiev authorities are asking for help from Poland, Romania, Slovakia, Hungary and Moldova.
To import ELECTRICITY. :dhr::dhr:
This was reported by the Ukrainian Ministry.
 

Abert

Veteran Member


Small snip:

====
Well, at least things are progressing now. These are all the first necessary steps toward later acceptance of other, harsher realities.

To clarify: Zelensky says he would accept the current part of Ukraine being let into NATO, while not officially recognizing Russian de jure control of Donbass, etc., but simply de facto.

But now, things have progressed. On the heels of the above, Russia’s foreign intel agency SVR has released a statement indicating that the West is planning to introduce a 100,000 peacekeeper force to essentially occupy Ukraine, at the start of any ‘ceasefire’. As such, naturally, the SVR concludes no such ceasefire is beneficial to Russia; summary:


Longer version, note the bolded below:


Recall this is not only what France and UK were allegedly recently discussing, which I mentioned in the last report, but what Boris Johnson himself openly stated again just yesterday—listen:

end snip
======

Much more at link.

===
.
Well getting Ukraine and "Z" to change their position is 100% due to Trump. Recall his initial statements on how to end this and force talks.
  • For Ukraine - talk of all aid ends.
  • For Russia - talk or we step up support.
It is clear Ukraine changed and is willing to give up land (temp) for a halt and most important keeping the $$$ flowing.
Naturally - as noted above - you always "ask" for more than you are willing to settle for (NATO) but for Ukraine they are at the point that this is their only practical option. It does not give Trump any reason to kill aid - we agreed to your key demand - we will give up land to start to settle this.

The Russian side is a lot more interesting - their position is not so much as an "ask" but a national objective. Recall in their Istanbul agreement some 2 years ago they obtained everything in their objective - and Ukraine agreed! At this point the only change from that agreement is that the 4 Eastern provinces are now part of Russia proper - not just semi-independent. Russia - if they come to the table - will be in a much stronger position than they were 2 years ago when they got everything they demanded.

As for the US - well there is not much we can do - even the Surge of weapons before Jan 20th looks like it is not possible - not only do we not have free stock - we are limited in how fast we can transport it. Russia is aware of the limitations of additional military aid and the likely political problems Trump would have trying to getting new 10's of Billions through congress.

It would be great if this could end - the loss of life over this dispute can not be morally justified (as in most wars).
Still it is very likely it will be settled on the battlefield. Trump will be dragged into this now that he now has no easy exit.
 

Abert

Veteran Member
The price of gas in Europe increased by 21% in November

The price of gas in Europe increased by 21% in November — to $521 per 1,000 cubic meters.

⚫The main factors for the price growth were record withdrawals from European storage facilities amid a cold snap, statements about the cessation of fuel supplies from Russia to Austrian OMV, and risks for payment for supplies.

Capital Lab partner Evgeny Shatov previously expressed the opinion that by the end of 2024, the cost of gas in Europe could increase by 5-10%.

Serbian President Aleksandar Vucic also said that countries that consume liquefied natural gas from the US will be forced to ask for natural gas from Russia.


Hmm....December will be much worse beca:dhr:use Kyiv shuts down all transit of Russian gas to all of its E.U. customers.

The E..U. uses natural gas for heating and more importantly, uses natural gas to produce ELECTRICTY.

And today in other news, The Kiev authorities are asking for help from Poland, Romania, Slovakia, Hungary and Moldova.
To import ELECTRICITY. :dhr::dhr:
This was reported by the Ukrainian Ministry.
This is key to why German industry is shutting down - the cost of that amount of NG in the US is around $140 per 1,000 cubic meters. Yes Germany could get much lower cost NG but the US prevents them from doing so. So much for being an independent nation.
 

Abert

Veteran Member
While it is still not clear how Trump will deal with Ukraine - he just declared war on the majority of the world.

Trump warns BRICS nations against replacing US dollar​


WASHINGTON, Nov 30 (Reuters) - U.S. President-elect Donald Trump on Saturday demanded that BRICS member countries commit to not creating a new currency or supporting another currency that would replace the United States dollar or face 100% tariffs.

"We require a commitment from these Countries that they will neither create a new BRICS Currency, nor back any other Currency to replace the mighty U.S. Dollar or, they will face 100% Tariffs, and should expect to say goodbye to selling into the wonderful U.S. Economy," Trump wrote on his social media platform, Truth Social.

"They can go find another 'sucker'. There is no chance that the BRICS will replace the U.S. Dollar in International Trade, and any Country that tries should wave goodbye to America."


Trump post:
 
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