OT/MISC Reading Levels

[fporretto]

I didn't see a more specific prefix for what follows, so I beg your indulgence if you find it out of place.

Many years ago, when I'd just finished my first novel, I solcited criticism from an online critique group. The member who agree to critique my book went on at length about my word choices. She said many times that I should aim for an eighth-grade reading level.

I didn't get it. I couldn't get it. I was writing for an adult audience. Why restrict myself to only terms an eighth-grader would recognize and understand? But I'd agreed to take her advice as part of the process, so I ripped through my book eliminating any word that might not be familiar to a thirteen-year-old.

It's been 19 years since then. These days I don't seek editing help; I rely on myself (and a couple of test readers I find to be reliable) to locate misspellings, missing words, and so forth. And my stuff is pretty popular; I have about 100,000 sales to date...despite no longer trying to maintain an eighth-grade reading level.

So I ask you, fellow forum members -- especially you who've enjoyed the stories I've posted here -- was my long-ago critic correct? Am I somehow disserving my readers or myself by writing without concern for whether this or that word is "obscure?" Or does it strike you as natural that an adult writer writing material intended for an adult audience should assume that his readers will be literate adults...possibly even owners of dictionaries?

 

[Dennis Olson]

You have to write to the level of your intended audience. If your material is intended for educated, thoughtful people, you can use a more, um, "enhanced" vocabulary than if your audience is to be "reglur muricans". Unfortunately, most younger folks today are far less educated than older people. The sad thing is, they seem to revel in their ignorance (sigh).

The only thing I'd guard against is gratuitous use of grandiose and obscure words simply for the sake of presenting yourself as "superior." (I am unfamiliar with your work, and this is not meant as a criticism in any way. I'm speaking theoretically only, and this suggestion is applicable to anyone who would write as their profession.)

 

[Dozdoats]

Dennis,

See http://bastionofliberty.blogspot.com/ . Should be a daily read IMHO.

 

[Dosadi]

I had no trouble reading what you wrote, even the bit more esoteric parts were easily understandable.

Lysander Spooner is among my "should read" list of writers, so even the reference to spoonerites in the one story was easily gotten.

Even if one did not catch the reference, the story itself was still understandable.

I think that what you write can be read at a great many levels of "depth".

If you keep writing, I'll keep reading.

D.

 

[Possible Impact]

Dennis,

See http://bastionofliberty.blogspot.com/ . Should be a daily read IMHO.

I Agree! (Advocate greatly reading everything, enthusiastically!)

If you want the YA fiction crowd, then publishers/editors will demand a scaled down vocabulary.

Most INTP and INTJ personality types I've met are reading at a college level before 10 years old.
(and are probably the core Science Fiction buyers and readers.)

Home schooled kids will also generally read at significantly higher levels,
and enjoy experiencing new words/phrases.

 

[summerthyme]

This is why your adviser gave the advice they gave:
http://www.impact-information.com/impactinfo/newsletter/plwork15.htm

The truth is, many newspapers have become too difficult for most adults to read.

To save readers and advertising, publishers have to do more than change the format of their newspapers or go to the Web. They also have to look up old lessons from Rudolph Flesch and Robert Gunning, who worked with newspapers and wire services to improve readability. Flesch worked with the Associated Press and Gunning with United Press.

During the period from the beginning of the New Deal to the end of World War II, newspapers had climbed steadily in reading difficulty. The work of Flesch and Gunning in the 40s and 50s gave them new life. They lowered average reading level of the newspapers from the 12th to the 9th grade. The reading level of the United Press dispatches went from the 16th to the 11th grade.

The results were considered something of a miracle at the time. Newspaper readership increased up to 45 percent. One 1948 study in the Journalism Quarterly showed that lowering the reading difficulty of a newspaper from the 13th to the 6th grade increased the number of paragraphs read by 93.11 percent.

Alan Gould, Executive Editor of Associated Press wrote in 1949:

"It is no exaggeration to say that the impact of Doctor Flesch's ideas on simpler, clearer ways of writing represents one of the most significant developments of our journalistic times. The effect has been to make more readable—and, therefore, more understandable—the combined output of the three great media of free expression in the United States: the newspapers, the magazines, and the radio.

"The rapidity with which Doctor Flesh has achieved results on the American writing scene is due, I suggest, to two main factors:
(a) his own skill in presenting a novel formula for Readability, and
(b) the extent to which it has been applied effectively to news writing. A Flesch axiom—"Write as you talk"— is now widely accepted by newspapermen who scoffed at the doctor's ideas when they began emerging from collegiate classrooms.

"The answers are simple enough, as the doctor has demonstrated and our own Associated Press staff has proved. The basic answer is this: newspaper readers or radio listeners have a better chance of grasping the news, or what it means, if it is told to them simply and clearly."

Granted, they are discussing newspapers (and I'll also grant that your average newspaper seems to be written for 5th graders BY a second grader... or someone for whom English is a second language), but the premise holds.

The average member here is going to be reading on a post high school level, but the latest studies show that the average literate American reads at a 7th grade level. And that's TODAY'S "7th grade level", not what would have been considered "7th grade" in the late 1800's!

It really does depend on your goals for your writing... if you want to mass market something, you're going to have to simplify it. If you want to stimulate intelligent discourse, even though it may be with a lot fewer people, write what pleases you.

Summerthyme

 

[Deena in GA]

Do not dumb down your writing!!! In my humble opinion, that's one of the reasons that many in the younger generations can't or won't read at higher levels. They have dumbed down school and writing to a level that frustrates many of us.

 

[Codeno]

Home schooled kids will also generally read at significantly higher levels,
and enjoy experiencing new words/phrases.

We home school, and at about 10 years old both of our daughters can read just about anything we have in the house. We do a pass around reading from an adult level book on a regular basis, both so they can hear inflection and punctuation cadences as my wife or I read, and so that they can develop these for themselves. We read a good amount of older literature, which in many cases is more complex than today's fare, because society as a whole was better educated "back then".

Our oldest is a voracious reader, and will pick up just about anything if she runs out of her continual supply of library books. If she doesn't recognize a word, she looks it up, and if that word is not clear by definition to her, she comes to us for context.

On a personal level, I have always enjoyed books that stretched me for any number of reasons - basic vocabulary, time period oddities, dialect, etc. This is how learning takes place.

Writers should never dumb down, readers should smarten up, which is part of what reading used to be about.

 

[China Connection]

Have a talk with a paper journalist and you will get told to keep it simple stupid.

I am reading a book at the moment that I personally can follow. Love it and would like to lend it to others but!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The reason is I have the background on the subject due to lots of study. For a first reader on the subject it is way too advanced.


If you are trying to get a big reading audience then aim for a low reading level.

 

[Mark Armstrong]

I don't think you should limit the vocabulary of your work to a particular grade level, or to a basic-English level. However, it is probably good to use words in such a way that the reader will be able to get the gist of what you're writing from the context in which the words are used.

Carl Barks, who wrote and drew phenomenally popular Donald Duck comic book stories would occasionally slip in big words many adults would have trouble defining. But he put those words into a context where you knew exactly what the word meant. He never wrote down to his audience, even though it was presumed that all his readers were young children.

Strive for clarity. If you know that a word is going to be unfamiliar to many of your readers, go ahead and use it--but don't use it in such a way that the reader will have to stop and look it up in the dictionary to be able to figure out what is happening in the story. Go ahead and refer to a character as being "puissant," but show the character ripping a door off its hinges as you say it. Or, have a character threaten another character with "defenestration," but have the one pushing the other towards an open window as he or she does so.

An exception to this is if you are trying to get published in "literary" publications, such as Atlantic Monthly, Harper's Magazine, or any magazine that has "Review" in its title. Obscurity and difficulty in comprehension are desired in those sorts of markets.

 

[KittyKatChic]

Most material produced for the masses is written at an eighth grade level and has been for about 15 years; probably more. This is the level of reading comprehension that a public high school education is supposed to guarantee.

I did some paid writing projects to help pay my way through college and eighth grade vocabulary and sentence structure were the max allowed to even be submitted. Editors, publishers etc. had programs that would "read" your submission and rate it based on word usage and writing level. Anything above eighth grade level was kicked back for rework.

If you are happy with the range of your audience, then continue as is. If you want a broader audience, you will need to dumb down your work. Sad fact in today's world.

 

[Hacker]

With sales upwards of 100K, you've obviously mastered your craft. Which begs the question, why are you asking what people on TB2K think?

 

[Mark Armstrong]

With sales upwards of 100K, you've obviously mastered your craft. Which begs the question, why are you asking what people on TB2K think?

There is no magic dividing line between "amateur" and "pro." Good art is the product of an artist who is continually developing and growing as an artist. Bad art is the result of complacency and stagnation. There is never a point at which one has truly mastered one's craft.

Are you saying that there is nothing to be gained from seeking the opinions of others?

 

[night driver]

WOW folks. You guys are harshing on one of the most solid III writers around!!

Welcome, Fran. Thanks for stopping bye. Forgive some of us as we may not be well-widely read.

Don't let us chase ya away!!

 

[Hacker]

I didn't see a more specific prefix for what follows, so I beg your indulgence if you find it out of place.

Many years ago, when I'd just finished my first novel, I solcited criticism from an online critique group. The member who agree to critique my book went on at length about my word choices. She said many times that I should aim for an eighth-grade reading level.

I didn't get it. I couldn't get it. I was writing for an adult audience. Why restrict myself to only terms an eighth-grader would recognize and understand? But I'd agreed to take her advice as part of the process, so I ripped through my book eliminating any word that might not be familiar to a thirteen-year-old.

It's been 19 years since then. These days I don't seek editing help; I rely on myself (and a couple of test readers I find to be reliable) to locate misspellings, missing words, and so forth. And my stuff is pretty popular; I have about 100,000 sales to date...despite no longer trying to maintain an eighth-grade reading level.

So I ask you, fellow forum members -- especially you who've enjoyed the stories I've posted here -- was my long-ago critic correct? Am I somehow disserving my readers or myself by writing without concern for whether this or that word is "obscure?" Or does it strike you as natural that an adult writer writing material intended for an adult audience should assume that his readers will be literate adults...possibly even owners of dictionaries?

With sales upwards of 100K, you've obviously mastered your craft. Which begs the question, why are you asking what people on TB2K think?

There is no magic dividing line between "amateur" and "pro." Good art is the product of an artist who is continually developing and growing as an artist. Bad art is the result of complacency and stagnation. There is never a point at which one has truly mastered one's craft.

Are you saying that there is nothing to be gained from seeking the opinions of others?

You're reading way more into my post than I either wrote or intended.

You may have noticed that fporretto put forth that s/he no longer seeks editing help. So my question goes to his/her premise - why is s/he now seeking editing help when s/he has declared s/he no longer does so?

Frankly, fporretto's initial post contains sufficient ambiguity to make me believe s/he's seeking something different than what s/he's asking for.

ETA: May I add that I intend no disrespect toward fporretto.

 

[Mark Armstrong]

WOW folks. You guys are harshing on one of the most solid III writers around!!

Welcome, Fran. Thanks for stopping bye. Forgive some of us as we may not be well-widely read.

Don't let us chase ya away!!

Hope you aren't including me as being one of those guys being harsh. I look at all art, all literature, all music, all film, as being potentially better. Life is short, and the artist has to find a cut-off point with each project to avoid becoming a one-hit wonder.

I assume this thread to be an honest discussion about the craft of writing.

 

[Hacker]

You're reading way more into my post than I either wrote or intended.

You may have noticed that fporretto put forth that s/he no longer seeks editing help. So my question goes to his/her premise - why is s/he now seeking editing help when s/he has declared s/he no longer does so?

Frankly, fporretto's initial post contains sufficient ambiguity to make me believe s/he's seeking something different than what s/he's asking for.

ETA: May I add that I intend no disrespect toward fporretto.

My question is motivated by my own circumstance - that I belong to a fiction writer's group and we have in the past set up critique sub-groups to help members with their own writing.

 

[Mark Armstrong]

I don't see asking for opinions about restricting the vocabulary of one's work as a request for editing help. I view it as a mere topic of discussion, such as "Mac or Windows?" or "Who do you think is going to win the World Series?"

 

[fporretto]

I'm a 'he,' Hacker. Francis William Michael Porretto, the last of his line.

I ask because I want to know. I need to know if I'm to be effective at my dual mission: entertaining while promulgating a theme of freedom.

The very worst thing a writer can allow himself is the assumption that he has nothing more to learn. So I take every opportunity to learn -- in particular, to learn what my readers would like to see more of, and what would persuade my non-readers to join the former group.

When I wrote Which Art In Hope, I had little hope of raising interest in the theoretical ideas that underlie rights, justice, and freedom. The book attained a substantial readership anyway, which surprised me. I've been trying ever since to figure out what I did right.

When I wrote Chosen One, I was stunned afresh. I'd created a hero so much larger than life that he struck even me, his creator, as implausible to the point of ridicule. He's the most beloved of all my characters. Why? How? I have no answer...but every reader who's encountered Louis Redmond has praised me to the skies for creating him...and cursed me for what I did to him in On Broken Wings.

I'm 63 years old. My parents both died in their early 70s, so I probably don't have a lot of time left. Anything I can learn in the near term might help me to finish my quest: to complete the intellectual / emotional journey that Lao-tse started, that Aristotle continued, that Jesus of Nazareth consecrated, that Ayn Rand pressed forward, and that remains to be completed even today.

I can't go much further on my own. Help me if you can.

 

[China Connection]

I will soon get into writing again soon. My blogs stay in first page spots year after year on the Net. Write content that people are interested in and keep it readable.

 

[Plain Jane]

I am not much into Dark Enlightenment, but when I saw this post I decided to look around. Perhaps the target audience needs to be defined?


http://www.xenosystems.net/demography-is-destiny/

Demography is Destiny

For a blast of sudden, icy clarity, this is worth recalling:
After decades of American Ed theorists and politicians grumbling about our low ranking on international tests, we now know that, as Steve Sailer summarized in 2010, reviewing the PISA (Program for International Student Assessment) results from the previous year:

* Asian Americans outscored every Asian country, and lost out only to the city of Shanghai, China’s financial capital.
* White Americans students outperformed the national average in every one of the 37 historically white countries tested, except Finland (which is, perhaps notcoincidentally, an immigration restrictionist nation where whites make up about 99 percent of the population).
* Hispanic Americans beat all eight Latin American countries.

* African Americans would likely have outscored any sub-Saharan country, if any had bothered to compete. The closest thing to a black country out of PISA’s 65 participants is the fairly prosperous oil-refining Caribbean country of Trinidad and Tobago, which is roughly evenly divided between blacks and South Asians. African Americans outscored Trinidadians by 25 points.
Racially disaggregate a conundrum that has tortured progressive education reformers for over a century, and it entirely disappears. Non-discrimination is mental and cultural chaos.

 

[Mark Armstrong]

By the way, Francis, welcome to the forum.

Just now noticed that you've only been here six days.

 

[Possible Impact]

I don't see asking for opinions about restricting the vocabulary of one's work as a request for editing help. I view it as a mere topic of discussion, such as "Mac or Windows?" or "Who do you think is going to win the World Series?"

I see the choices like picking a restaurant.

Do you go for fast food, or an all-you-can-eat buffet?
Or, do you prefer a fine dining experience, with talented Chefs?
(Who prepare the meal with flair, and their unique panache.)

There is not necessarily a "right answer" on matters of taste.

What sells, and what wins glowing literary reviews, ain't exactly the same.


Example: unique Sci-fi writer that has "spelling/punctuation issues".

Chris Hechtl
http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/h/chris-hechtl/

(but his stories are worth the slight aggravation, or whatever-you-call-it,
that you feel when reading books with noticeable "flaws".)

Last I checked, he is rated #83 on Amazon Author Rank for Science-Fiction authors.

 

[L.A.B.]

My punctuation might make it obvious, gramma is not my strong point, yet I love to read authors that require my stepping up on my tip-toes so that the idea presented doesn't go over my head.

I vote, be all that you can be. The retrieving audience may be smaller, yet the idea or story that is presented may have more momentum in established venues over time.

 

[L.A.B.]

I'm a 'he,' Hacker. Francis William Michael Porretto, the last of his line.

I ask because I want to know. I need to know if I'm to be effective at my dual mission: entertaining while promulgating a theme of freedom.

The very worst thing a writer can allow himself is the assumption that he has nothing more to learn. So I take every opportunity to learn -- in particular, to learn what my readers would like to see more of, and what would persuade my non-readers to join the former group.

When I wrote Which Art In Hope, I had little hope of raising interest in the theoretical ideas that underlie rights, justice, and freedom. The book attained a substantial readership anyway, which surprised me. I've been trying ever since to figure out what I did right.

When I wrote Chosen One, I was stunned afresh. I'd created a hero so much larger than life that he struck even me, his creator, as implausible to the point of ridicule. He's the most beloved of all my characters. Why? How? I have no answer...but every reader who's encountered Louis Redmond has praised me to the skies for creating him...and cursed me for what I did to him in On Broken Wings.

I'm 63 years old. My parents both died in their early 70s, so I probably don't have a lot of time left. Anything I can learn in the near term might help me to finish my quest: to complete the intellectual / emotional journey that Lao-tse started, that Aristotle continued, that Jesus of Nazareth consecrated, that Ayn Rand pressed forward, and that remains to be completed even today.

I can't go much further on my own. Help me if you can.

So where is the current deficit. Subject matter, drive, imagination or a throttle on out of the box thinking?

Go to UNEXPLAINED for the non-fiction. I just dropped hot coals on your "underwood"... Sir, we all have a time stamp on our DNA, get to typing.

 

[Dennis Olson]

Hacker, I have to say that though I understand where you're coming from, 1) your delivery sometimes comes across as harsh and combative, and 2) why did you ask the question on the open forum? You could have sent him a PM. Do you have a particular motive for your approach? Because frankly, your post bothers me a bit due to tone. And no matter the intent, it APPEARS to be beating on a new member, something the staff, and myself in particular, frown upon.

You might want to adjust your delivery moving forward, and think a little more before clicking SUBMIT.


Just sayin...

 

[Hacker]

I'm a 'he,' Hacker. Francis William Michael Porretto, the last of his line.

I ask because I want to know. I need to know if I'm to be effective at my dual mission: entertaining while promulgating a theme of freedom.

The very worst thing a writer can allow himself is the assumption that he has nothing more to learn. So I take every opportunity to learn -- in particular, to learn what my readers would like to see more of, and what would persuade my non-readers to join the former group.

When I wrote Which Art In Hope, I had little hope of raising interest in the theoretical ideas that underlie rights, justice, and freedom. The book attained a substantial readership anyway, which surprised me. I've been trying ever since to figure out what I did right.

When I wrote Chosen One, I was stunned afresh. I'd created a hero so much larger than life that he struck even me, his creator, as implausible to the point of ridicule. He's the most beloved of all my characters. Why? How? I have no answer...but every reader who's encountered Louis Redmond has praised me to the skies for creating him...and cursed me for what I did to him in On Broken Wings.

I'm 63 years old. My parents both died in their early 70s, so I probably don't have a lot of time left. Anything I can learn in the near term might help me to finish my quest: to complete the intellectual / emotional journey that Lao-tse started, that Aristotle continued, that Jesus of Nazareth consecrated, that Ayn Rand pressed forward, and that remains to be completed even today.

I can't go much further on my own. Help me if you can.

Hi Francis. Thanks for connecting, and welcome to Timebomb! Also, thanks for providing clarity to what you're seeking. I *do* apologize if I seemed abrupt.

I will be delighted to offer suggestions where I can. However, I will need to read more of your novels to do so.

I will say that I read the beginning of your novel, Which Art In Hope. I like the way you narrate it, and I like the urgent tone.

As a thought, . . . to me, the author's job is to convey a story effectively - meaning the reader experiences the story roughly the way the author intends. Part of this 'charter' is that the author write it in such a way that the story is unimpeded by the writing - which is to say the author's voice, style, dialogue, sentence structure, scene development, plot, etc. should all work in the reader's favor and stimulate the reader's imagination.

This is the challenge for all of us who write.

I'll do my best to look at your work; and if you're willing, provide what little insight I might have.

 

[Hacker]

Hacker, I have to say that though I understand where you're coming from, 1) your delivery sometimes comes across as harsh and combative, and 2) why did you ask the question on the open forum? You could have sent him a PM. Do you have a particular motive for your approach? Because frankly, your post bothers me a bit due to tone. And no matter the intent, it APPEARS to be beating on a new member, something the staff, and myself in particular, frown upon.

You might want to adjust your delivery moving forward, and think a little more before clicking SUBMIT.

Just sayin...

I agree, Dennis. Sometimes I can seem like an A-hole (that's with a big 'A'). I sincerely apologize.

 

[RememberGoliad]

"Reading Levels".... with the "OT/MISC" notation.... Boy, did I presume wrong. I thought this was going to be a post on carpentry skills

Precision is probably what means the most when choosing a word for a particular situation. Euphemisms are only worth what they can provide in terms of humor. If it takes a 'big word' to get the precision necessary to convey your point, then use it.

Most of the time, common words will work well, but not always, and that's what separates the thinking reader from the merely entertained reader.

100k sales volume speaks a lot to your style and writing philosophy. I'm only one, and I will say I like it. Thank you for giving us these stories!