GOV/MIL Putting Civilians in US Troop Support Jobs Could Save Billions, Report Says

Housecarl

On TB every waking moment
Hummm..........80,000 equals 17.7 4500 man brigades in terms of manpower. They'd have to get the equipment for them....Then of course there's the issue of following the money to the "contractor" companies or the SEIU if it stays in the DoD but with civilians...... Check out the comments section......

For links see article source.....
Posted for fair use.....
http://www.defenseone.com/managemen...ave-billions-report-says/124244/?oref=d-river

Putting Civilians in US Troop Support Jobs Could Save Billions, Report Says

December 7, 2015 By Kellie Lunney Government Executive

Converting 80,000 active-duty jobs to civilian positions could save as much as $5.7B per year, according to a new Congressional Budget Office analysis.

Defense Budget / Civilians / Personnel

Replacing military personnel in Defense Department support jobs with civilian employees could eventually save the federal government billions annually, according to a new Congressional Budget Office analysis.

Converting 80,000 full-time jobs held by active-duty service members to civilian positions could yield between $3.1 billion and $5.7 billion per year in eventual savings, the nonpartisan CBO estimated. CBO analyzed compensation costs, including pay, health insurance, and other benefits that military personnel and civilian employees receive.

“CBO estimates that if all the services adopted the approach of the service with the smallest percentage of military personnel in each commercial occupation, about 80,000 active-duty positions could be available for conversion,” the analysis said. CBO said the services could consider conversion as a way to help them comply with sequestration.

In 2012, approximately 340,000 active-duty service members were in commercial support jobs. Some of the jobs CBO looked at included positions in communications, finance and accounting, health services, and logistics. The amount of savings to the government from converting those jobs would depend on the department’s replacement ratio; the savings are greater if Defense replaces every three service members with only two civilians, for instance, rather than replacing everyone in equal numbers.

The analysis showed that the federal government overall would see greater savings than would Defense individually from replacing military personnel with civilian employees. A civilian worker in one of DoD’s commercial jobs costs the government 29 percent less than an active-duty service member, roughly $96,000 annually versus $135,200. That’s largely because the costs of military personnel – from pay to retirement to veterans’ benefits – are spread out across multiple agencies. However, a civilian employee costs the Pentagon about 3 percent more than an active-duty member in the occupations that CBO looked at, about $106,100 per year compared to $103,400, in part because civilian salaries tend to be higher in the positions CBO reviewed.

“Active-duty service members cost less to DoD than to the federal government as a whole in large part because a significant portion of their costs is borne by agencies other than DoD,” the analysis said. “In contrast, civilian employees cost more to the DoD than to the government as a whole because very few of their costs are borne by other agencies and because their higher taxable incomes generate larger tax payments to the Treasury.”

According to CBO, replacing one service member with a civilian employee would on average increase the taxes the employee owed by about $6,600 per year.

Defense periodically reviews the make-up of its workforce, converting noncombat military positions to civilian jobs, although the individual services decide on their specific military-civilian blend. For example, in 2012, military personal accounted for 4 percent of the Navy’s motor vehicle transportation workforce, but 74 percent of the Air Force’s workforce in that field.

“Some service officials attribute part of the variation to the unique missions of each service that require them to use personnel differently,” CBO said. “Other service officials also point to an existing military culture in which officials prefer to use military personnel rather than civilians for certain functions.”

Direct combat jobs are restricted to military personnel, while “inherently governmental” positions typically are open to both military and civilian staff. Commercial jobs include those restricted to Defense military and civilian employees, as well as other jobs open to contractors. Civilians make up about one-third of the department’s workforce. Between 2004 and 2010, Defense shifted roughly 48,000 military jobs to civilian employees and some contractors – about 32,000 civilian workers replaced military personnel.

CBO noted that civilians bring “greater job stability” because they move less often than service members, and typically require less on-the-job training. But the nonpartisan CBO also said that DoD and policymakers should carefully consider the factors in converting military jobs to civilian positions. “Achieving the savings from the conversions as discussed in this report would require DoD to reduce end strength by the number of positions transferred,” the analysis said. “Doing so, however, could reduce DoD’s ability to rapidly increase the number of troops when it is engaging in combat operations that last for several years.”
 

Jez

Veteran Member
Problem with stuff like this is that means there are fewer jobs to rotate troops into when you need to give them a break. This will probably cause PTSD to increase.
 

Melodi

Disaster Cat
It also won't save money because they will "contract out" and that ALWAYS results in more money spent in the long run; the contractors go wild in terms of pricing up anything they can and eventually it all falls apart. I've seen this time and time again in the civil service (contract out your janitors and then discover that mim wage employees with dozen ear rings and no benefits are of course happy to give the paperwork over to someone giving them 500 dollar in exchange for it).

Now if they want to DIRECT hire civilian employees that probably has some validity for SOME jobs; because a lot of them do end up going first preference to the spouses of deployed military people and because even civilian military employees take oaths and serve "Tours of Duty."
 

Publius

TB Fanatic
Enlisted personal usually get paid less than civilians and on top of that government rules require contractors to apply the union pay-scale rules, so there is no savings and will actualy cost taxpayers five to six times more.
Next is finding who is talking with whom so they can divert military work to them and make many million$ off of it.
 

Meadowlark

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Not to mention putting cake eating civilians in harms way with fewer benefits. Dead civilian contractors come home anonymous with no flags or respect and disappear off the radar screen. Those in uniform who come home deceased, come home at least with the respect and due ceremony of their brothers and sisters in uniform. They also are not so easily forgotten in the public mind.

I see less money saving in this and more potential for graft and abuse.
 

Melodi

Disaster Cat
Not to mention putting cake eating civilians in harms way with fewer benefits. Dead civilian contractors come home anonymous with no flags or respect and disappear off the radar screen. Those in uniform who come home deceased, come home at least with the respect and due ceremony of their brothers and sisters in uniform. They also are not so easily forgotten in the public mind.

I see less money saving in this and more potential for graft and abuse.
I have NEVER from the State of Colorado to the Federal Civil Service and reports directly from Military Friends seen ONE example where "contracting out" actually really saved money in the long-run; while this is often a beloved tactic of conservatives and liberal administrations alike, it just doesn't pass muster in the longer term.

On the really low-wage end you get under-paid people without benefits who "make up" for it by everything from just taking free toilet paper to actual spying to earn some extra cash (not to mention just doing a really bad job- we actually took pictures of the human feces in the bathrooms used by employees and the public one month after they early retired our uniformed civil service janitor who could fix anything in the building or knew how to get fixed in a jiffy).

On the higher end, you get what Publius is talking about; where the civil service people sometimes end up quitting and being hired to do the same job for three times the pay (I don't know if this happens with the military as much but I did here stories about contractors in the Gulf). The result is that the newer and younger employees (the ones who are not invested in the system but who in ten years will be the experienced ones) jump ship and bail out to take the higher paying contracting jobs.

Eventually the department ends up paying three times the going rate for a civil service employee because of "emergency staff shortages" of the sort that result in law suits when things are not handled quickly enough, stuff doesn't get inspected on time or mandatory "targets" are not met.

There probably are a few exceptions where "out-sourcing" actually works but I haven't personally seen any; even the NHS under the Torys has had to take BACK two "contracted out" hospitals because it turned out that trying to both save money and earn a profit for shareholders while practicing medicine didn't work as well as was thought.

The Military has an even more serious situation because having a sudden "staff shortfall" for things like providing breakfast for troops or worse actual ammo getting to the front line is a bigger disaster than just taking photos of the dirty bathroom to send to the governor and employees forced to bring in gloves and cleaning equipment themselves.
 

China Connection

TB Fanatic
Sending all those on Welfare to the front line could save Billions in welfare payments.


Lots of ways to save including cutting government employees. However seeing that money is fake all we would have is less money going around and more crime.
 

Melodi

Disaster Cat
Sending all those on Welfare to the front line could save Billions in welfare payments.


Lots of ways to save including cutting government employees. However seeing that money is fake all we would have is less money going around and more crime.
It depends on who is cut, why and where; I won't rehash everything but I do remember my department in Colorado about to be sued because there was "no money" to replace the employees who quit and the folders were piled so high around the desks that we had to make them into trails to walk through them.

Told the department was about to be sued (and would loose to the tune of millions of tax payer dollars) money was suddenly "found" to replace the employees, except that another department was downsized so those of us with experience were "bumped" onto the unemployment line so long-term employees trained to do something else could replace us.

Then there was the "no money" for computer backups - that cost tens of millions of dollars when lightning hit the building (as the programmers said it would) and when they were "ordered to fix it" (impossible) they simply ALL quit over the weekend; requiring the State to emergency hire the old company to rebuild the computer systems from scratch - I was almost happy to get out of there...

And that's ONE example; yes there are agencies that get over-staffed and redundant, but in my personal experience I only saw that once (by an agency beloved of Republicans during a Republican administration that was provided by so much money they had extra photo copiers that were never opened and senior staff fighting over which shade of velvet curtains to hang behind their giant new desks).

It is much more common for under-staffing or under funding to result in things like my being paid a reasonably good wage to photo copy both sides of the paper (mandated by Washington) on a printer so old it would only print one side at a time; or the Worker's Compensation Inspectors forced to sit inside drinking coffee for nearly a month because the allocation for stamps to send the letters out with the mandatory inspection notice had run out and it was ILLEGAL on pain of JAIL, for anyone to just go buy a book of stamps.

That sort of idiocy tends to waste a lot more money (often in the name of saving it) than too many staff; or staff that is miss allocated (I had one job where I had nothing to do for about six hours every day but wasn't able to do anything else but look busy).
 

Dozdoats

On TB every waking moment
And not putting anyone at all in those jobs AT ALL would save even more. And likely, that would get about as much work done.

Sorry, but the civil service that used to be the backbone of government and the military has been destroyed. There will be no replacing what used to be, because the ethos that made it work has been destroyed as well.

People make much of those who are part of the military service, yet what used to be the civil service never got any equivalent respect ... though its members swore the same sort of oath and served at some level of sacrifice as well.

First the SF-171 went away. Then contractors came along. As all this happened the active duty military positions which used to do most of the direct support for equipment and the logistical support for the organizations they served were whittled down in training, responsibility and numbers as contractors increased.

Now we have gotten rid of the contractors while looking to soldiers who have never been taught how to do these support, maintenance and logistics jobs AND who now have no civil service made up of old retired GIs who spent a lifetime doing these things before entering civil service to fall back on and get the job done.

No one who has never done it realizes how much getting government or military work actually done used to hinge more on WHO you knew than on WHAT you knew - who to call, who knews the shortcuts, the workarounds, who trusted you enough to do something "the book" said you aren't supposed to but would do it anyway and fix it for 'the book' later. I knew people who had spent a full career in the active Army, retired, and gone back to spend another full career in civil service in support of the units they had served, who had 30 or 40 or 50 years of inside knowledge and experience.

ALL THAT IS GONE NOW. There will be no getting it back, because the military culture on the support and logistics side has turned more and more into nothing but camouflage welfare. Go to any town which supports a major military base and go to the malls, coffee shops etc. Look at the number of "soldiers" you see in uniform and off base DURING DUTY HOURS.

We have a half-assed military which is operating at less than a quarter speed. Outside the serious combat units that is. Most of the faces you see in front line combat units are white.

Most of the faces you see in service, support and logistics units ... are not white. The heavy lifting gets done in service, support and logistics units. How much actual WORK do you think happens in those units now?

The shooting, bleeding and dying happens in the front line combat units. The service, support and logistics units are what used to be called REMFs - Rear Echelon Mother F______s.

No civilian these days is going to work any harder if even as hard as someone in uniform. Reality bites.
 

sssarawolf

Has No Life - Lives on TB
I can tell you first hand, those they have and will cut from the rolls of the mil. and from the ex mil. who were and are contractors is ridiculous. They cut the ones who are most qualified and keep the brown nosers and least qualified for the jobs. To top it off you all are correct. IT DOES NOT SAVE ANY MONEY.
 

Meadowlark

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Pure and simple, we don't have enough people in uniform and odumbo is cutting back even further while running up the debt to record levels.
 
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