WAR NATO and EU countries are 'considering sending troops to Ukraine', Slovakia's pro-Moscow PM Robert Fico claims

jward

passin' thru
NATO and EU countries are 'considering sending troops to Ukraine', Slovakia's pro-Moscow PM Robert Fico claims




NATO and EU countries are considering sending troops to Ukraine, Slovakia's pro-Moscow Prime Minister has extraordinarily claimed.

Slovak leader Robert Fico, who has long opposed military supplies to Ukraine and has taken a position seen by some critics as pro-Russian, said today that he learnt of the idea via notes ahead of a meeting of European leaders in Paris.

While he added that he did not know what troops would be doing in the war-torn country, he said a move like that will likely lead to escalation.

'I will limit myself to say that these theses (in preparation for the Paris meeting) imply a number of NATO and EU member states are considering that they will send their troops to Ukraine on a bilateral basis,' Fico told a televised briefing following a meeting of Slovakia's security council.

'I cannot say for what purpose and what they should be doing there,' he said, adding that Slovakia, a member of the EU and NATO, would not be sending soldiers to Ukraine.

Slovak leader Robert Fico, who has long opposed military supplies to Ukraine and has taken a position seen by some critics as pro-Russian, said today that he learnt of the proposal via notes ahead of a meeting of European leaders in Paris

Members of NATO have supplied billions of dollars in arms and ammunition to Kyiv and are training Ukrainian forces.

But NATO leaders including US President Joe Biden have underlined that the Western military alliance wants to avoid a direct conflict with Russia, which could lead to a global war.

'Neither NATO nor NATO allies are party to the conflict,' NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg said on February 14.

NATO had no immediate comment on Fico's remarks.

Asked about the comments, Czech Prime Minister Petr Fiala said: 'The Czech Republic certainly is not preparing to send any soldiers to Ukraine, nobody has to worry about that.'

Fico said he saw a risk of a large escalation of the conflict in Ukraine, and that more information could not be revealed to the public.

Some 20 European leaders, including Fico, are gathering in Paris today to send Putin a message of European resolve on Ukraine and counter the Kremlin's narrative that Russia is bound to win a war now entering its third year, France said.

French President Emmanuel Macron has invited European leaders to the Elysee Palace for a working meeting announced at short notice because of what his advisers say is an escalation in Russian aggression over the past few weeks.

Fico said calling the meeting showed the West's strategy on Ukraine had failed. He said he was going to take part in a constructive spirit although the material for discussions sent 'shivers down his spine'.

This comes as Polish Prime Minister Donald Tusk said Monday that 'no compromise' was possible with his Hungarian and Slovak counterparts if they decline to openly support Ukraine facing Russia's invasion.

Tusk will meet Czech, Hungarian and Slovak premiers Petr Fiala, Viktor Orban and Robert Fico in Prague on Tuesday at a meeting in the so-called Visegrad group.

Support for Ukraine has sown division among the four-nation group of Central European nations - all NATO and European Union members - as Orban and Fico have criticised military support for Ukraine.

Orban blocked a 50 billion euro EU aid package for months while Fico has refused to provide military aid to war-ravaged Ukraine, questioning its sovereignty and calling for peace with Russia.

'If you are a NATO and EU member, by definition and by the very nature of this membership you have to support Ukraine in its defence against the Russian invasion,' Tusk told reporters.

'If someone fails to understand this, and I will say this openly in Prague tomorrow, they place themselves ... outside our communities, and there is no compromise to be made on this,' he told reporters.

Tusk said he would say this to Orban 'in the eyes' when they meet in Prague, and added he was 'stunned' by Fico's recent statements on Ukraine.

'It won't be a pleasant or simple encounter,' Tusk said after meeting Canadian counterpart Justin Trudeau in Warsaw. Tusk added that the meeting would be a 'test' of the Visegrad group.

He said that upon his return home, he would say 'openly' if the four-country club still has a reason to exist.

The Visegrad group was founded in 1991, two years after the four countries had ended four decades of Soviet-led communist rule.

Given the historic experience with Moscow-led communist rule, 'it is a paradox that Budapest and Bratislava send out these ambiguous signals concerning (President Vladimir) Putin and Russia these days', added Tusk.

 

dstraito

TB Fanatic
Here are some WWIII buttons, let's see how many we can push

Giving Ukraine weapons
Giving Ukraine access to the massive propaganda machine called "Media"
Allow Ukraine into Nato
Fund the Ukrainian corrupt money laundering machine
Allow Congress to push money and weapons to Ukraine ahead of the interests of the American people

Way to let the Military Industrial Complex enrich its coffers and launch yet another war
 

Bubble Head

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Good luck with that Polok telling the Slovaks what to do. That is like two boulders trying to tell which one should move. Polish President talk to the rock you will get better results.
I have family about 120 kilometers from Ukraine. They don’t worry about Russia and they sure don’t care about what Poland wants. The EU may try to cut their funds off but that could make them madder.
 

jward

passin' thru
hmm. still no walking it back eh? : (








OSINTdefender
@sentdefender


The President of France, Emmanuel Macron stated tonight that “All Options are on the Table” to prevent Russia from Succeeding in their Invasion of Ukraine including the possible Deployment of NATO Ground Troops, with him further stating, “We will do whatever it takes to ensure that Russia can not Win this War.”
 

Housecarl

On TB every waking moment
Another "run up the flag pole" or "DOT" article.........

Posted for fair use......

ASTERN EUROPE

Can NATO Prevent Tides Turning in Russian Favour in the Third Year of War in Ukraine?​


The rhetoric of US led West seems shifting from “Putin must lose” to “Putin must not win” as it struggles to meet Ukraine’s expectations of financial and military support.
Gen. Shashi Asthana
BYGEN. SHASHI ASTHANA

FEBRUARY 27, 2024

As the war in Ukraine completes two years, Russia seems emboldened by success in capturing Avdivka and seems to be advancing westwards near Avdiivka, Bakhmut, Donetsk City, Robotyne and Krynky, besides capturing settlement of Pobeda. It is showing intent to unlock the frozen conflict, which was witnessing only standoff attacks from opposing sides through drones and missiles in the recent past, with both sides licking their wounds, counting their losses and struggling to recuperate their combat power.

The rhetoric of US led West seems shifting from “Putin must lose” to “Putin must not win” as it struggles to meet Ukraine’s expectations of financial and military support, wherein President Biden promises of supporting Ukraine ‘for as long as it takes’ subtly seems shifting to “As long as we can” as he faces delay in clearing foreign aid package.

Russia too is not too comfortable having suffered considerable losses to Black Sea Fleet and struggling to contain repeated standoff attacks by Ukraine on Russian cities, which was once thought to be out of bound for Ukrainians using western long-range arsenal, to prevent escalation to NATO-Russian show down.

There is no doubt that because of Western compulsion not to lose against Putin, Ukraine will get the desired aid, arsenal and ammunition sooner or later, but the question remains as to who will provide it enough trained soldiers to match Russian soldiers on frontline, as the asymmetry of numbers might prove to be a game changer in protracted war of attrition.

Hard Realities

Certain stark realities decide the maximum limits of the war. Firstly, Russia with largest arsenal of nuclear weapons and hypersonic missiles under Putin will not get annihilated/decisively defeated without using any of these major weapons. Secondly, US will not risk annihilation of Washington/New York to save Zelensky/Poland. Thirdly Russia will not be able to annihilate Ukraine if continuously supported by NATO. Fourthly Europe will have to follow American dictate, as it knowingly fell prey to American design of cutting off its dependency on Russia and ignored its own security and Russian security concerns for too long. Fifthly Ukraine can’t recapture entire lost territory without NATO getting fully involved with troops, meaning Third World War and Nuclear ‘Armageddon’ Risk. The war is therefore continue to be prosecuted within these maximal limits.

Russia, has three times the population than Ukraine, double the military budget and a most importantly a strong President thoroughly committed to ending the war only on his own terms. Due to lack of options NATO is still trying to use old instruments of war like economic war through additional sanctions on Russia (500 additional entities by USA) and information war by picking up Navalny’s death as rallying point, who was more of hero of western media, but no worthwhile threat to Putin.

While the kinetic, contact, hybrid war between Russia and Ukraine is witnessing relatively slow progress on borders with frequent standoff strikes, offensive actions are also happening in the US-led NATO’s undeclared, non-kinetic, non-contact war against Russia in the economic, information, diplomatic, and political domains. The scale of war is increasing with both sides increasing use of more dangerous arsenal, proxy elements, non-state actors, drone and cyber warfare along with other modern instruments. The dimensions of war are growing to encompass targeting dual-use key infrastructure, the energy grid, covert operations, an expanded information war, and a psychological offensive.

Russian Aim, Strategy, and Outcomes

Russia’s political aim at the beginning of the war was to arrest the trend of eastern expansion of NATO into its backyard, foreclose option of inclusion of Ukraine into NATO, liberate complete Luhansk and Donetsk regions to act as buffer, and ensure security of Crimea by connecting it with Donbass Region through a land corridor. The aim plus included completely cutting off Ukraine from warm water access to get absolute freedom of maneuver for its Black Sea Fleet and join up with Transnistria. Capturing complete Ukraine was beyond Russian capability and continues to be so, but an end state along its linguistic borders is thought to be within its achievable limits.

After two years of war Russia has captured 20 percent of Ukrainian territory after Crimea, but not yet liberated entire Donbass region. It is yet to capture Odessa and join up with Transnistria, which is not easy. It miscalculated on Ukrainians will and resolve to withstand Russian onslaught and underestimated the magnitude of support by West to boost Ukrainian resistance initially. Ukrainians fought with determination to blunt Russian offensive on Kyiv, Kharkiv, Mykolaiv and other areas.

Russia suffered heavy casualties in men and material in first year of war, but learnt some lessons quickly, hence it developed a strong and viable defence line along the captured territory which could withstand the much-hyped Ukrainian counteroffensive. While enduring the counteroffensive in the second year, it simultaneously worked towards its recuperation of combat capabilities faster than the West and has reached a position to threaten Ukraine to fulfill its remaining aims again in the third year, despite paying heavy cost in terms of casualties of men and material, besides economic and diplomatic squeeze. It is estimated that Russian military production grew by 400 percent as against 20 percent of Europe since 2021.

Ukrainian Aim, Strategy, and Outcomes

President Zelensky was expecting a violent action from Russia after signing decree aimed at de-occupation and reintegration of the Crimean Peninsula on 26 February 2021. Joint exercises with NATO gave up his and NATO’s intentions, adequate to alarm Russians, even if such acts were aimed to impress domestic audience. Ukraine’s aim in initial stages was to blunt the Russian offensive and impose punitive cost on Russians with all the assistance from US led NATO using state of the art weaponry and systems. Ukraine’s strong resolve to resist Russian offensive has been noteworthy, having deliberately prepared for the conflict since 2014.

To overcome the adverse asymmetry in military asset holdings to deploy military assets in civilian areas, Ukraine turned towns into fortresses, and residential areas into pillboxes. It involved mercenaries and civilians to fight as part of the war machine, launched sniper attacks, ambushes, small team operations, drone attacks on softer convoys. It successfully provoked Russians to target residential areas in order to gain propaganda advantage from civilian casualties through superior information warfare, backed by the NATO, despite losing air cover in the early stages of war. It thus forced Russians to fight the war of attrition at the ground of Ukraine’s choosing. Russians were organised for mechanised warfare and inadequately prepared to deal with fighting in built up areas and western state of the art weapons and equipment, thus achieved territorial gains at a very heavy cost of casualties.

The second year of war saw an overconfident Zelensky claiming to win back all his territory, overhyped by NATO assuming that meeting his war requirements may give him fair chance to defeat Putin in the counteroffensive. The counteroffensive was supported by hollow media campaign making everyone believe that Ukraine is winning, whereas it was losing its combat power in the failed counteroffensives to Russians who were holding strong defence line.

The prolonged failures on ground has set in a war fatigue in the West. The fact that military campaign of Ukraine was mainly based on American proxy, it has been impacted adversely by the diversion of focus of US in Middle-East. Ukraine today suffers from devastated infrastructure, 14 million people displaced, tattered economy, heavily dependent on Western aid to sustain its resistance, with its sovereign decision making hostage to USA, which wants it to fight till last Ukrainian standing!

US led NATO’s Aim, Strategy, and Outcomes

While Russia can be accused of launching ‘Special Military Operations’ violating territorial integrity of Ukraine, the eastward expansion of NATO knocking Russian doors was also a major provocation. While unprepared Europe may have no option but to follow USA for collective security against overhyped threat of Russia, but it was mainly to meet American interest. The expanded NATO means more captive market for American military hardware and oil, assured sustenance of military industrial complex, jobs, economy of USA. In 2023 alone US weapons sale overseas has jumped to a record of $238 billion and British arms maker BAE recorded its highest ever profit at $3.4 billion. Knocking off energy dependence of Europe from Russia through destruction of Nordstream pipelines doesn’t seem to be in the interest of Europe, (but it is in the interest of America) which is adequately vindicated by the downslide of economy of Europe in comparison to Russia.

The US led strategy therefore was to let Ukraine fight proxy war to weaken Russia as extension of Cold War 1.0, so that NATO doesn’t run into the risk of third world war or nuclear war and doesn’t bear the burden of body bags. They found a willing Zelensky to undertake it on their behalf with assured support from NATO. As this narrative is globally known, NATO doesn’t want to lose face by stopping the war at a point that they look embarrassed and defeated by Putin, so they find hopeless continuation of war a better face saver.

Global Impact of the Outcome of the War

Two years of Russia Ukraine War has caused tremendous economic, energy and food crisis globally and pushed people not connected with the war too to face immense inflationary pressure. Strategically it has left US entangled in Cold War 1.0 and Cold War 2.0 (with China) together overstretching its capabilities. Strategically the most damaging impact for NATO has been the rise of an opposing power block in terms Russia-China-Iran-Belarus and North Korea, which US led NATO is finding it difficult to handle, with some of them are supporting military effort of Russia undeterred by West which has already sanctioned them.

Frequent compromises with China by the West are more frequent in recent times as no one wants China to join in war effort of Russia militarily, beyond giving dual use assistance, but China continues to extend economic lifeline to Russia with trade booming over $200 billion. It has also given more strategic space to China in areas like Middle-East. Serious distractions like Israel Hamas war and resultant Red Sea crisis have placed US in awkward position hampering its capacity to take on major challenges in other flash points specially in Indo-Pacific.

The sanctions have not been adequately effective as Western dependence on Russian nuclear fuel, fertilizers, gas is not easy to scrap overnight. The resource rich Russia has started looking at Asia for trade much more seriously than Europe. World economies have also started looking for alternatives to US dominated financial system.

The Future of Russia Ukraine War

As of today President Putin is much more confident of prosecuting this war than any of his opponents. He has trained manpower advantage on his side, has been able to endure the sanctions and made some economic gains. His military industrial complex has been able to put his surge capacity in motion to generate more hardware, ammunition and combat power. His major concern will continue to be maritime warfare, where he is still struggling. The option to use nuclear weapons, in case of existential threat will continue to be a powerful tool to prevent NATO entering into contact war with Russia in future too.

On the other hand, Ukraine is struggling for aid and weapons. While it may eventually get them but the problem will be the shortage of trained soldiers in the battlefield which will be a major factor to change the tides in Russian favour in immediate future. The rhetoric and brave front of Zelensky talking of next counteroffensive are good for information warfare but may not swing the situation on ground in his favour as he is banking on what Sean McFate calls “Killing with borrowed knife”.

It may be too late for Ukrainians to realise that Zelensky’s wish to join NATO has been too costly for their people and call for sovereignty has made them a vassal state of USA, but they know that ultimately their geography stands changed for ever. The initiative of individual European countries signing security pacts/agreements with Ukraine may be good optics with some aid, but it doesn’t let them act beyond Article 5 of NATO’s Charter to enter into war against Russia for Ukraine, independent of NATO’s approval.

Turkey claims that in second month of war it facilitated peace negotiations between Russia and Ukraine in Istanbul in second month of war, leading to signing a feasible deal, but it was put on hold by Zelensky after he met Boris Johnson, indicating western interest in continuation of war. A recent survey conducted by Kyiv International Institute of Sociology indicates that 72 percent of Ukrainians believe that talk with Russia must start. Also percentage of Ukrainians feeling that they can win against Russia has dropped from 35 percent to 23 percent.

Putin has talked of negotiations, but he would proceed on its own terms which practically seem to be Russianisation of areas captured as buffer with NATO, a neutral Western Ukraine (may be part of EU), a secure Crimea and Black Sea. He would attempt to capture entire Donbass in 2024 and extend southern corridor to Transnistria in 2025. He is confident of getting back to power and keeps showing his physical fitness by optics like travelling in nuclear capable bomber at considerable height to nullify western propaganda about his sickness.

NATO seems to be stressed and fatigued supporting never ending Ukrainian demands over domestic needs, which will impact combat capability and morale of Ukrainian fighters in the long run. Finding manpower to fight will be biggest challenge of Ukraine, which NATO can’t help much. At the beginning of third year of war it seems NATO will find it difficult to turn the tide against Russia.
 

Melodi

Disaster Cat
The propaganda on this side of the water has gone over the top. A few weeks ago, it started with, "What if we had a subscription in XYZ country?" Editorials by Boomer and even elderly Silents about how excellent "National Service" would be for all the poor lost snowflakes. "Give em a backbone!"

I am used to these sorts of "feeler" stories in the UK Press especially, but there were articles translated into English so we could all read how the Finns, Swedes, Germans, and French (pick your country) were having similar opinion pieces. A few have already restarted "National Service" programs, though like the ones in Sweden that were around when we lived there, there isn't enough budget for everyone. So many Generation Z won't have to do this right away.

Or at least that is what it looked like a month or two ago. Now, after a couple of months where the stress was how Europe has to arm itself (probably true, but the pieces were a bit over the top), in the last couple of weeks, there has been a drumbeat again, only this time they come flat out and say "It may be necessary to return to draft again" and other pretty blunt words. You don't hear the "National Service" part much anymore, just that there are not enough people in the military, so bingo, we are going to draft you! Be ready to serve King and Country (UK or some such in other countries).

This has gone from the usual background noise that these articles bring up every few months about how XYZ is bad for you or "Ya gonna Eat De Bugs," into almost panic mode. So far, Ireland is still on the "We need to improve and increase the military," but there is no talk of forced inductions (Ireland's so-called Defense Forces often can't afford bullets for current troops to train with). I suspect if WWIII did break out, they would be forced to work with the EU, the old Frenemy, and the UK, as they have done in the past. But I don't know.

If they are seriously panicking, we will know when a real draft starts in the UK (probably before the US). Like WWII, the US politicians know the US public won't stand for something like that without a direct attack. That leads to other topics best discussed in another thread.
 

Thinwater

Firearms Manufacturer
The French are giving Ukraine advanced, long range missiles that can strike anywhere in Russia. They are also giving permission to use them to the fullest. It is unstoppable, WW3 is in progress
 

Cedar Lake

Connecticut Yankee
Don't these bilateral agreements make the external party a war partner of Ukraine?
If so, are not each partners liable, for the fault of the other?
Seems to me an external signator has made itself a partner of Ukraine, all outside of NATO.
Which would mean that NATO's ''Article 5'' has no standing?
Is there any legal connection between NATO Article 5 and these single nation
bi-lateral agreements?
Are these bi-lateral agreements a binding document?
 
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jward

passin' thru
OSINTdefender
@sentdefender

Following a Statement yesterday by French President Macron on the potential Deployment of French Ground Troops into Ukraine, the Kremlin stated today that if Military Forces from any Member of the NATO Alliance enter Ukraine they will be forced to Declare War on NATO.
 

jward

passin' thru
Apex
@Apex_WW

Western troops could deploy to Ukraine without breaching any 'belligerence threshold,' French foreign minister says. - AFP

10:28 AM · Feb 27, 2024
34.3K
Views
 

jward

passin' thru
Apex
@Apex_WW

Western nations could engage in demining, arms production and operations in the cyber field "on Ukrainian soil... without breaching any belligerence threshold," foreign minister Stephane Sejourne said Tuesday.

10:32 AM · Feb 27, 2024
10.7K
Views
 

jward

passin' thru

ShadowMan

Designated Grumpy Old Fart
Sending troops to Ukraine would be tantamount to an open declaration of war on Russian.....in other words - STUPID! Might as well just go full NUKE on Russian because that's basically what's going to end up happening. The only question will be who launches first, after that it's all just one big firestorm and millions and millions of people dead on both sides. DAMN!!

And there's NO WAY AMERICA can pull Europe's ass out of the fire for a THIRD TIME!! We need to stay the hell out of that mess. If Europe doesn't want Russian back at it's doorstep then the Europeans need to pull up their girl panties and fight like a rabid bitch.

IT'S NOT OUR FIGHT!
 

jward

passin' thru
They've been pizzing gas on this fire every single time it threatens to burn out- I can only conclude that war with Russia is the intended end game.
..and America's been leading the pack all the way, the commie-red-rat-bastards!
Sending troops to Ukraine would be tantamount to an open declaration of war on Russian.....in other words - STUPID! Might as well just go full NUKE on Russian because that's basically what's going to end up happening. The only question will be who launches first, after that it's all just one big firestorm and millions and millions of people dead on both sides. DAMN!!

And there's NO WAY AMERICA can pull Europe's ass out of the fire for a THIRD TIME!! We need to stay the hell out of that mess. If Europe doesn't want Russian back at it's doorstep then the Europeans need to pull up their girl panties and fight like a rabid bitch.

IT'S NOT OUR FIGHT!
 

jward

passin' thru
posted on wrong thread yesterday- blaming medication, but we know it's just that I'm dumb : )

hmm. just tryin for some djt style strategic ambiguity...?


OSINTdefender
@sentdefender


The United States as well as multiple other Western Nations today have Rebuked several Comments made yesterday by French President Macron and Polish President Duda in which they claimed that Serious Discussions were Underway during Monday’s Summit in Paris on the possibility of NATO Ground Troops being Deployed into Ukraine; with Senior White House Officials directly stating that there will be No American Boots on the Ground in Ukraine.
 

jward

passin' thru
ft.com
Leaked Russian military files reveal criteria for nuclear strike



Vladimir Putin’s forces have rehearsed using tactical nuclear weapons at an early stage of conflict with a major world power, according to leaked Russian military files that include training scenarios for an invasion by China.

The classified papers, seen by the Financial Times, describe a threshold for using tactical nuclear weapons that is lower than Russia has ever publicly admitted, according to experts who reviewed and verified the documents.

The cache consists of 29 secret Russian military files drawn up between 2008 and 2014, including scenarios for war-gaming and presentations for naval officers, which discuss operating principles for the use of nuclear weapons.

Criteria for a potential nuclear response range from an enemy incursion on Russian territory to more specific triggers, such as the destruction of 20 per cent of Russia’s strategic ballistic missile submarines.

“This is the first time that we have seen documents like this reported in the public domain,” said Alexander Gabuev, director of the Carnegie Russia Eurasia Center in Berlin. “They show that the operational threshold for using nuclear weapons is pretty low if the desired result can’t be achieved through conventional means.”

Russia’s tactical nuclear weapons, which can be delivered by land or sea-launched missiles or from aircraft, are designed for limited battlefield use in Europe and Asia, as opposed to the larger “strategic” weapons intended to target the US. Modern tactical warheads can still release significantly more energy than the weapons dropped on Nagasaki and Hiroshima in 1945.

Although the files date back 10 years and more, experts claim they remain relevant to current Russian military doctrine. The documents were shown to the FT by western sources.

The defensive plans expose deeply held suspicions of China among Moscow’s security elite even as Putin began forging an alliance with Beijing, which as early as 2001 included a nuclear no-first-strike agreement.

In the years since, Russia and China have deepened their partnership, particularly since Xi Jinping took power in Beijing in 2012. The war in Ukraine has cemented Russia’s status as a junior partner in their relationship, with China throwing Moscow a vital economic lifeline to help stave off western sanctions.

Yet even as the countries became closer, the training materials show Russia’s eastern military district was rehearsing multiple scenarios depicting a Chinese invasion.

The exercises offer a rare insight into how Russia views its nuclear arsenal as a cornerstone of its defence policy — and how it trains forces to be able to carry out a nuclear first strike in some battlefield conditions.


One exercise outlining a hypothetical attack by China notes that Russia, dubbed the “Northern Federation” for the purpose of the war game, could respond with a tactical nuclear strike in order to stop “the South” from advancing with a second wave of invading forces.

“The order has been given by the commander-in-chief . . . to use nuclear weapons . . . in the event the enemy deploys second-echelon units and the South threatens to attack further in the direction of the main strike,” the document said.

China’s foreign ministry denied there were any grounds for suspicion of Moscow. “The Treaty of Good-Neighborliness, Friendship and Cooperation between China and Russia has legally established the concept of eternal friendship and non-enmity between the two countries,” a spokesperson said. “The ‘threat theory’ has no market in China and Russia.”

Putin’s spokesperson said on Wednesday: “The main thing is that the threshold for the use of nuclear weapons is absolutely transparent and is spelled out in the doctrine. As for the documents mentioned, we strongly doubt their authenticity.”

A separate training presentation for naval officers, unrelated to the China war games, outlines broader criteria for a potential nuclear strike, including an enemy landing on Russian territory, the defeat of units responsible for securing border areas, or an imminent enemy attack using conventional weapons.

The slides summarise the threshold as a combination of factors where losses suffered by Russian forces “would irrevocably lead to their failure to stop major enemy aggression”, a “critical situation for the state security of Russia”.

Other potential conditions include the destruction of 20 per cent of Russia’s strategic ballistic missile submarines, 30 per cent of its nuclear-powered attack submarines, three or more cruisers, three airfields, or a simultaneous hit on main and reserve coastal command centres.

Russia’s military is also expected to be able to use tactical nuclear weapons for a broad array of goals, including “containing states from using aggression […] or escalating military conflicts”, “stopping aggression”, preventing Russian forces from losing battles or territory, and making Russia’s navy “more effective”.

Putin said last June that he felt “negatively” about using tactical nuclear strikes, but then boasted that Russia had a larger non-strategic arsenal than Nato countries. “Screw them, you know, as people say,” Putin said. The US has estimated Russia has at least 2,000 such weapons.

Putin said last year that Russian nuclear doctrine allowed two possible thresholds for using nuclear weapons: retaliation against a first nuclear strike by an enemy, and if “the very existence of Russia as a state comes under threat even if conventional weapons are used”.

But Putin himself added that neither criteria was likely to be met, and dismissed public calls from hardliners to lower the threshold.

The materials are aimed at training Russian units for situations in which the country might want the ability to use nuclear weapons, said Jack Watling, a senior research fellow for land warfare at the Royal United Services Institute, rather than setting out a rule book for their use.

“At this level, the requirement is for units to maintain — over the course of a conflict — the credible option for policymakers to employ nuclear weapons,” Watling added. “This would be a political decision.”

While Moscow has drawn close to Beijing since the war games and moved forces from the east to Ukraine, it has continued to build up its eastern defences. “Russia is continuing to reinforce and exercise its nuclear-capable missiles in the Far East near its border with China,” said William Alberque, director of strategy, technology and arms control at the International Institute for Strategic Studies. “A lot of these systems only have the range to strike China.”
Map of Russia showing locations of nuclear storage and Iskander brigades. Much of its nuclear capabilities remain in the east

Russia was still behaving in accordance with the “theory of use” of nuclear weapons set out in the documents, Alberque said. “We have not seen a fundamental rethink,” he said, adding that Russia is probably concerned that China may seek to take advantage of Moscow being distracted “to push the Russians out of Central Asia”.

The documents reflect patterns seen in exercises the Russian military held regularly before and since Putin’s invasion of Ukraine in 2022. Alberque, who previously worked for Nato and the US defence department on arms control, pointed to examples of Russian exercises held in June and November last year using nuclear-capable Iskander missiles in two regions bordering China.

While Russia’s president has the sole authority to launch a first nuclear strike, the low threshold for tactical nuclear use set out in the documents conforms with a doctrine some western observers refer to as “escalating to de-escalate”.

Under this strategy a tactical weapon could be used to try to prevent Russia from becoming embroiled in a sprawling war, particularly one in which the US might intervene. Using what it calls “fear inducement”, Moscow would seek to end the conflict on its own terms by shocking the country’s adversary with the early use of a small nuclear weapon — or securing a settlement through the threat to do so.

“They talk about ‘soberising’ their adversaries — knocking them out of the drunkenness of their early victories by introducing nuclear weapons,” said Alberque. “The best way that they think they can do that is to use what they call a lower ‘dosage’ of nuclear weapons at a much lower level of combat to prevent escalation.”


Ukrainian officials argued that Putin’s nuclear threats convinced US and other allies not to arm Kyiv more decisively early in the conflict, when advanced Nato weaponry could have turned the tide in Ukraine’s favour.

Alberque said Russia would probably have a higher threshold for using tactical nuclear weapons against Ukraine, which does not have its own nuclear capability or the ability to launch a ground invasion on the same scale, than against China or the US.

Russian leaders believe that, whereas a nuclear strike against China or the US could be “soberising”, a nuclear strike on Ukraine would be likely to escalate the conflict and lead to direct intervention by the US or UK, Alberque said. “That is absolutely the last thing Putin wants.”

Additional reporting by Joe Leahy in Beijing
 

jward

passin' thru
Don't these bilateral agreements make the external party a war partner of Ukraine?
If so, are not each partners liable, for the fault of the other?
Seems to me an external signator has made itself a partner of Ukraine, all outside of NATO.
Which would mean that NATO's ''Article 5'' has no standing?
Is there any legal connection between NATO Article 5 and these single nation
bi-lateral agreements?
Are these bi-lateral agreements a binding document?
those are great questions and I imagine the answer is: the past, and rule of engagements be damned, they will justify whatever actions that wish to take based upon whatever the wish to justify them...

My understanding was that bi-lateral agreements WERE binding documents; I don't know that clown world ties themselves down to anything as messy and inconvenient as rules and laws though ::Shrug::
 

jward

passin' thru
OSINTdefender
@sentdefender

The Chancellor of Germany, Olaf Scholz revealed this week that French and British Troops are on the Ground in Ukraine assisting the Ukrainian Air Force with the launch of SCALP-EG/Storm Shadow Air-Launched Long-Range Cruise Missiles towards Targets in Russian-Occupied Crimea, which he stated would also be required of German Servicemen if they were to provide Ukraine with their Taurus Long-Range Cruise Missiles.
 

Housecarl

On TB every waking moment
ft.com
Leaked Russian military files reveal criteria for nuclear strike



Vladimir Putin’s forces have rehearsed using tactical nuclear weapons at an early stage of conflict with a major world power, according to leaked Russian military files that include training scenarios for an invasion by China.

The classified papers, seen by the Financial Times, describe a threshold for using tactical nuclear weapons that is lower than Russia has ever publicly admitted, according to experts who reviewed and verified the documents.

The cache consists of 29 secret Russian military files drawn up between 2008 and 2014, including scenarios for war-gaming and presentations for naval officers, which discuss operating principles for the use of nuclear weapons.

Criteria for a potential nuclear response range from an enemy incursion on Russian territory to more specific triggers, such as the destruction of 20 per cent of Russia’s strategic ballistic missile submarines.

“This is the first time that we have seen documents like this reported in the public domain,” said Alexander Gabuev, director of the Carnegie Russia Eurasia Center in Berlin. “They show that the operational threshold for using nuclear weapons is pretty low if the desired result can’t be achieved through conventional means.”

Russia’s tactical nuclear weapons, which can be delivered by land or sea-launched missiles or from aircraft, are designed for limited battlefield use in Europe and Asia, as opposed to the larger “strategic” weapons intended to target the US. Modern tactical warheads can still release significantly more energy than the weapons dropped on Nagasaki and Hiroshima in 1945.

Although the files date back 10 years and more, experts claim they remain relevant to current Russian military doctrine. The documents were shown to the FT by western sources.

The defensive plans expose deeply held suspicions of China among Moscow’s security elite even as Putin began forging an alliance with Beijing, which as early as 2001 included a nuclear no-first-strike agreement.

In the years since, Russia and China have deepened their partnership, particularly since Xi Jinping took power in Beijing in 2012. The war in Ukraine has cemented Russia’s status as a junior partner in their relationship, with China throwing Moscow a vital economic lifeline to help stave off western sanctions.

Yet even as the countries became closer, the training materials show Russia’s eastern military district was rehearsing multiple scenarios depicting a Chinese invasion.

The exercises offer a rare insight into how Russia views its nuclear arsenal as a cornerstone of its defence policy — and how it trains forces to be able to carry out a nuclear first strike in some battlefield conditions.


One exercise outlining a hypothetical attack by China notes that Russia, dubbed the “Northern Federation” for the purpose of the war game, could respond with a tactical nuclear strike in order to stop “the South” from advancing with a second wave of invading forces.

“The order has been given by the commander-in-chief . . . to use nuclear weapons . . . in the event the enemy deploys second-echelon units and the South threatens to attack further in the direction of the main strike,” the document said.

China’s foreign ministry denied there were any grounds for suspicion of Moscow. “The Treaty of Good-Neighborliness, Friendship and Cooperation between China and Russia has legally established the concept of eternal friendship and non-enmity between the two countries,” a spokesperson said. “The ‘threat theory’ has no market in China and Russia.”

Putin’s spokesperson said on Wednesday: “The main thing is that the threshold for the use of nuclear weapons is absolutely transparent and is spelled out in the doctrine. As for the documents mentioned, we strongly doubt their authenticity.”

A separate training presentation for naval officers, unrelated to the China war games, outlines broader criteria for a potential nuclear strike, including an enemy landing on Russian territory, the defeat of units responsible for securing border areas, or an imminent enemy attack using conventional weapons.

The slides summarise the threshold as a combination of factors where losses suffered by Russian forces “would irrevocably lead to their failure to stop major enemy aggression”, a “critical situation for the state security of Russia”.

Other potential conditions include the destruction of 20 per cent of Russia’s strategic ballistic missile submarines, 30 per cent of its nuclear-powered attack submarines, three or more cruisers, three airfields, or a simultaneous hit on main and reserve coastal command centres.

Russia’s military is also expected to be able to use tactical nuclear weapons for a broad array of goals, including “containing states from using aggression […] or escalating military conflicts”, “stopping aggression”, preventing Russian forces from losing battles or territory, and making Russia’s navy “more effective”.

Putin said last June that he felt “negatively” about using tactical nuclear strikes, but then boasted that Russia had a larger non-strategic arsenal than Nato countries. “Screw them, you know, as people say,” Putin said. The US has estimated Russia has at least 2,000 such weapons.

Putin said last year that Russian nuclear doctrine allowed two possible thresholds for using nuclear weapons: retaliation against a first nuclear strike by an enemy, and if “the very existence of Russia as a state comes under threat even if conventional weapons are used”.

But Putin himself added that neither criteria was likely to be met, and dismissed public calls from hardliners to lower the threshold.

The materials are aimed at training Russian units for situations in which the country might want the ability to use nuclear weapons, said Jack Watling, a senior research fellow for land warfare at the Royal United Services Institute, rather than setting out a rule book for their use.

“At this level, the requirement is for units to maintain — over the course of a conflict — the credible option for policymakers to employ nuclear weapons,” Watling added. “This would be a political decision.”

While Moscow has drawn close to Beijing since the war games and moved forces from the east to Ukraine, it has continued to build up its eastern defences. “Russia is continuing to reinforce and exercise its nuclear-capable missiles in the Far East near its border with China,” said William Alberque, director of strategy, technology and arms control at the International Institute for Strategic Studies. “A lot of these systems only have the range to strike China.”
Map of Russia showing locations of nuclear storage and Iskander brigades. Much of its nuclear capabilities remain in the east

Russia was still behaving in accordance with the “theory of use” of nuclear weapons set out in the documents, Alberque said. “We have not seen a fundamental rethink,” he said, adding that Russia is probably concerned that China may seek to take advantage of Moscow being distracted “to push the Russians out of Central Asia”.

The documents reflect patterns seen in exercises the Russian military held regularly before and since Putin’s invasion of Ukraine in 2022. Alberque, who previously worked for Nato and the US defence department on arms control, pointed to examples of Russian exercises held in June and November last year using nuclear-capable Iskander missiles in two regions bordering China.

While Russia’s president has the sole authority to launch a first nuclear strike, the low threshold for tactical nuclear use set out in the documents conforms with a doctrine some western observers refer to as “escalating to de-escalate”.

Under this strategy a tactical weapon could be used to try to prevent Russia from becoming embroiled in a sprawling war, particularly one in which the US might intervene. Using what it calls “fear inducement”, Moscow would seek to end the conflict on its own terms by shocking the country’s adversary with the early use of a small nuclear weapon — or securing a settlement through the threat to do so.

“They talk about ‘soberising’ their adversaries — knocking them out of the drunkenness of their early victories by introducing nuclear weapons,” said Alberque. “The best way that they think they can do that is to use what they call a lower ‘dosage’ of nuclear weapons at a much lower level of combat to prevent escalation.”


Ukrainian officials argued that Putin’s nuclear threats convinced US and other allies not to arm Kyiv more decisively early in the conflict, when advanced Nato weaponry could have turned the tide in Ukraine’s favour.

Alberque said Russia would probably have a higher threshold for using tactical nuclear weapons against Ukraine, which does not have its own nuclear capability or the ability to launch a ground invasion on the same scale, than against China or the US.

Russian leaders believe that, whereas a nuclear strike against China or the US could be “soberising”, a nuclear strike on Ukraine would be likely to escalate the conflict and lead to direct intervention by the US or UK, Alberque said. “That is absolutely the last thing Putin wants.”

Additional reporting by Joe Leahy in Beijing

All "escalate to deescalate" does is ensure a "full" exchange.
 

Sacajawea

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Ya know, Russia might define those actions "legally doable without declaring war" that Macron et al are discussing AS war. No matter what BS they try to sell to us pee-ons about it. The days of being legitimately intimidating are GONE and other countries make their own rules.
 

jward

passin' thru
And if he doesn't, they will undoubtedly make the provocation more pointed and even harder to ignore
..that seems to be the goal
 

jward

passin' thru
news.sky.com


Putin says NATO is preparing to attack Russia - and warns aggression risks nuclear conflict​


Russia must be "properly protected" after the expansion of NATO to include Sweden and Finland, Vladimir Putin has said in an annual state-of-the-nation speech.
NATO forces are "preparing to strike our territory", he claimed, but he warned any such move - including sending troops to Ukraine - could trigger the use of nuclear weapons.
He was referencing an idea floated by French President Emmanuel Macron on Monday, of NATO members sending ground troops to Ukraine - a suggestion rejected by the US, Germany and UK.
Ukraine-Russia war latest: Putin says Russia will protect itself with nuclear weapons
"(Western nations) must realise that we also have weapons that can hit targets on their territory," Mr Putin said.
"All this really threatens a conflict with the use of nuclear weapons and the destruction of civilisation. Don't they get that?"
Visibly angry, Mr Putin suggested Western politicians recall the fate of those who unsuccessfully invaded his country in the past, like Adolf Hitler and Napoleon Bonaparte.
"But now the consequences will be far more tragic," he said. "They think it (war) is a cartoon."

Image: Vladimir Putin delivering his annual state-of-the-nation speech
Focusing the first parts of his speech on Russia's place in the world, he hit out at Western countries, who he said think they are "supreme".

"Russophobia blinds people and deprives them of their rational faculties," he said, adding suggestions Russian forces might attack other European countries was "nonsense".
He had also denied any intention to attack Ukraine before the invasion began in February 2022.
Mr Putin made the remarks during his address to the Russian parliament and other members of the country's elite ahead of a presidential election he is all but certain to win between 15-17 March.
"Without Russia there is no solid peace in the world," he said.


Image: Ukrainian flags in front of damaged residential buildings in Orikhiv, southern Ukraine. Pic: Reuters
The Russian leader said Moscow is ready for dialogue with the US on strategic stability, but rejected any attempts to force Russia into talks.
He dismissed "unsubstantiated accusations" that Russia could be deploying nuclear weapons in space, claiming such "innuendo" only favours the US.
Read more:
Expert predictions on where conflict will go next
Estonian leader urges West to stand up to Russia


But he did elaborate on the use of "advanced weapons systems", like Zircon hypersonic missiles, in Ukraine, where he said Russia holds the military advantage.
The invasion of Ukraine - which he still described as a "special military operation" - was supported by the "absolute majority" of Russian people from the "very beginning", he said.
Moving on from the war in Ukraine, Mr Putin focused much of his speech on domestic issues, addressing the country's low birth rate and economic performance among other matters.
He proposed higher child benefits and other measures to support large families, with Russia's low birth rate posing demographic problems for authorities for many years.
The country will also soon be among the four largest economic powers in the world, he claimed.

 

SouthernBreeze

Has No Life - Lives on TB

jward

passin' thru
Global: Military-Info
@Global_Mil_Info

It seems that French President Macron is doubling-down on NOT ruling out the possibility of western nations deploying troops into Ukraine.

If a deployment does occur, it is possible it will focus on training, logistics, air-defense and other duties away from the frontlines.

It is something to watch, especially with multiple nations in Europe not ruling out the possibility.

6:59 PM · Feb 29, 2024
41.8K
Views
 

northern watch

TB Fanatic
hmm. still no walking it back eh? : (



OSINTdefender
@sentdefender


The President of France, Emmanuel Macron stated tonight that “All Options are on the Table” to prevent Russia from Succeeding in their Invasion of Ukraine including the possible Deployment of NATO Ground Troops, with him further stating, “We will do whatever it takes to ensure that Russia can not Win this War.”
So France is ready of war with Russia, even when France faces civil war from its Muslim immigrants?
 

WildDaisy

God has a plan, Trust it!
So France is ready of war with Russia, even when France faces civil war from its Muslim immigrants?
France is open to sending NON combat troops - medics, chaplains, etc. Basically, the "non committal, committal". Just enough to say you did something, but nothing of great substance or table turning tactics.

Typical French.
 
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