TECH NASA work on EMDrive

Housecarl

On TB every waking moment
Hummm.....

For links see article source.....
Posted for fair use.....
http://natmonitor.com/2015/04/30/na...-could-travel-faster-than-the-speed-of-light/

NASA hints at developing engine that could travel faster than the speed of light

By David Keup, National Monitor | April 30, 2015

NASA is believed to have been quietly testing a revolutionary new method of space travel that could one day allow humans to travel at speeds faster than light, according to an April 30 DailyMail report.

The system is based on electromagnetic drive, or EMDrive, which converts electrical energy into thrust without the need for rocket fuel. Solar energy created by the sun provides the electricity to power microwaves, which means that no propellant is needed.

Researchers from the U.S., U.K. and China have demonstrated EMDrive over the past few decades, but their results have been controversial as no one has been exactly sure how it works. Now, NASA has built an EMDrive that works in conditions like those in space, according to users on forum NasaSpaceFlight.com.

The DailyMail reported that when London, England-based Roger Sawyer came up with the EMDrive concept in 2000, the only team that took him seriously was a group of Chinese scientists. In 2009, the team allegedly produced 720 millinewton (or 72g) of thrust, enough to build a satellite thruster. But still, nobody believed they had achieved this. On NASASpaceFlight.com, those allegedly involved in the project claim that the reason previous EMDrive models were criticized were that none of the tests had been carried out in a vacuum.

Physics says particles in the quantum vacuum cannot be ionized, so therefore you cannot push against it. But NASA's latest test is claimed to have shown otherwise.

The NASA test has yet to be peer-reviewed and the space agency did not immediately respond to DailyMail.com for comment.
 

Housecarl

On TB every waking moment
For links see article source.....
Posted for fair use.....
http://canadajournal.net/science/na...ld-use-electromagnetic-propulsion-25766-2015/

NASA warp drive in the works, future space travel could use electromagnetic propulsion

Posted by: News May 1, 2015 in Science Leave a comment

Nasa – Warp drives that let humans zip around other galaxies may no longer belong purely in the realm of science fiction.

Scientists have quietly been testing a new drive that would enable spacecrafts to travel faster than the speed of light.

The hope is that one day this will allow humans to reach the moon in just four hours.

The new ‘warp’ drive works on an electromagnetic system, which creates thrust from electrical energy without rocket fuel.

The ‘EmDrive’ engine bounces microwaves around in a closed container – providing thrust from nothing except solar energy to power the microwaves.

Technically – according to current understanding of physics – this should be impossible.

This should violate the laws of ‘conservation of momentum’, whereby the momentum of a system is constant if there are no external forces.

The implications for the new drive are huge – without needing fuel, satellites could be half the size.

Humans could also travel further into space than ever before.
 

Housecarl

On TB every waking moment
For links see article source.....
Posted for fair use.....
http://qz.com/395232/nasa-is-workin...p-technology-that-defies-the-laws-of-physics/

NASA is working on a super-fast spaceship technology that defies the laws of physics

Written by Zach Wener-Fligner@zachwe
May 1, 2015

NASA researchers have made progress on a new way to power a spaceship that could eventually enable fast travel to the outer reaches of our solar system. The research findings fly in the face of our understanding up until now of physics. Indeed, the results, which have now been seen similarly in several studies, appear to contradict Newton’s third law of physics.

The propulsion system, known as the EmDrive, was conceived around the turn of the millennium by a British engineer named Roger Shawyer. The EmDrive is an electromagnetic propulsion drive that purports to generate thrust by bouncing microwaves in a closed container. By the principles of classical physics, this ought to be impossible because of the law of conservation of momentum: every action has an equal and opposite reaction. For example, a fuel-powered rocket builds momentum by shooting propellant out its back, which pushes it forward. (You’ll experience the same effect if you try to throw a ball on roller skates.) But the EmDrive seems to generate momentum out of thin air.

Shawyer’s initial results were deservedly met with extreme skepticism—after all, what he said he’d found should have been impossible. But in 2010, Chinese researchers reported that they had generated thrust from an EmDrive, and in 2014, a NASA propulsion lab known as NASA Eagleworks found the same. Still, none of these experiments were conducted in a vacuum, which made them more prone to error and therefore not conclusive.

But now, a researcher with NASA Eagleworks has reported that the group has been able to generate thrust from an EmDrive in a vacuum. That’s a big piece of evidence in favor of this research’s validity, and an indicator that it could one day be possible to build spaceships that use the drives.

And what if we can? Well, the EmDrives would theoretically allow spaceships to accelerate to much higher speeds, shrinking the vastness of space enough to make interplanetary exploration feasible. For example, as Eagleworks research lead Harold White and Kent Joosten write in a 2014 paper on human space exploration (pdf), spaceships outfitted with EmDrives and onboard nuclear power instead of jet fuel could take passengers to Mars in 75 days, or to the Saturnian moon of Titan in nine months. That’s a quick jaunt compared with current spacecraft, which now take nine months to get to Mars, and three to six years to reach Saturn.
 

Blue 5

Veteran Member
After reading this, my first thought was about the Boeing X-37 (the "mini shuttle"). Perhaps the reason it's missions have lasted over a year is because they're sending it out into the outer solar system? That's perhaps a stretch; I imagine it's much more likely that they're using it as a steerable spy platform, but it's still fun to speculate.
 

Avatar

Human test subject #58652
Anytime I hear about these FTL drives or close to it two HUGE obstacles come to mind that they never mention.

1.) How are they going to steer?
ANY amount of mass going anywhere close to that speed would take an incredible effort to change direction in any realistic amount of time.

2.) Debris - Can you imagine the force of hitting a basketball size rock going anywhere close to 671 million miles an hour?

Something like sub space would have to be discovered or devised. I don't think anything in "real" space would be able to overcome these two obstacles alone.
 

Aardaerimus

Anunnaku
Anytime I hear about these FTL drives or close to it two HUGE obstacles come to mind that they never mention.

1.) How are they going to steer?
ANY amount of mass going anywhere close to that speed would take an incredible effort to change direction in any realistic amount of time.

2.) Debris - Can you imagine the force of hitting a basketball size rock going anywhere close to 671 million miles an hour?

Something like sub space would have to be discovered or devised. I don't think anything in "real" space would be able to overcome these two obstacles alone.

Even a pea sized piece of debris or dust, would penetrate like an impossibly powerful laser beam. If you think about actual laser, which is just a 'thick' stream of soft photons with virtually undetectable mass blasting at, well, the speed of light - hitting something of any mass at light speed would unleash unbelievable energy.
 

Housecarl

On TB every waking moment
The 14 page paper (http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20140013174.pdf) rightly has a focus on inter-system missions, where in the near term this is a game changer, potentially allowing the solar system to be fully opened up to exploration and exploitation. As to extra-system missions, thus far, the accelerations achievable at this time with this method is still going to be "sub light", though still not insignificant when time under such small acceleration is compounded, like interest....

For a one-way, non-decelerating trip to ? Centauri, (?!"#$=4.37 light years) under a constant one milli-g acceleration, ∆?= 92 years with a velocity at the destination of 0.094c. If deceleration at the target system were desired, the trip would take 130 years, with a spacecraft velocity at the turnaround point of 0.067c. The Lorentz factors for the decelerating and non-decelerating missions are 1.0023 and 1.0045, respectively, so relativity effects are minor. While designing spacecraft systems for a ~100 year mission is certainly daunting, it should be pointed out that the U.S. Voyager 1 and 2 spacecraft continue to operate after onethird of that duration.

5. SUMMARY

While Quantum Thruster technology is currently at a relatively low level of technology readiness, it has been instructive to understand the potential implications to solar system transportation should postulated levels of specific thrust be attained. The combination of constant milli-g thrust, megawatt power levels and essentially zero propellant expenditure would provide revolutionary human transportation capabilities to and from the outer planets with typical round-trip mission durations of 10 months for Mars, 19 months for Jupiter and 30 months for Saturn. For Mars in particular, the resultant performance level would allow crewed missions independent of planetary phasing and highcapacity, frequent cargo delivery capabilities. Further analyses should examine specific earth departure and return techniques. Unconstrained Q-Ship spiral trajectories could expose crewmembers to undesirable levels of radiation exposure due to the Van Allen radiation belts. It may be possible to use the Q-Thruster performance levels to design trajectories that avoid or minimize transits through the most problematic regions. Since Mars missions traditionally display larger opportunity-dependent performance variations than missions to other planets due to Mars’ orbital eccentricity and relative inclination it would be prudent to check the GRG/Excel® results against tools utilizing accurate planetary ephemerides, although it is expected that the postulated Q-Thruster performance would greatly attenuate these variations.
 

TheSearcher

Are you sure about that?
Anytime I hear about these FTL drives or close to it two HUGE obstacles come to mind that they never mention.

1.) How are they going to steer?
ANY amount of mass going anywhere close to that speed would take an incredible effort to change direction in any realistic amount of time.

2.) Debris - Can you imagine the force of hitting a basketball size rock going anywhere close to 671 million miles an hour?

Something like sub space would have to be discovered or devised. I don't think anything in "real" space would be able to overcome these two obstacles alone.

The spacecraft is going much slower than the speed of light, essentially zero, while it is within a bubble of spacetime. The bubble is moving, but is inertially neutral to the spacecraft. In a very local area, the spacecraft would be outside of spacetime. If there were debris, it would only be what was within that local bubble when you started your journey.

As for steering, I don't know.
 

Dosadi

Brown Coat
I knew a mathematician when I worked for NASA that loved taking

E=MC^2 and solving that equation by letting time go to zero over time.

Essentially it was a exploration of folding time and mass to achieve instantaneous transfer of mass from point a to point b.

I'm not and wasn't pre-stroke the best at theoretical math, but I asked him what happened at 2C (twice the speed of light)

He spent some time playing around with it, and said that I may have pointed him to something valuable as it resulted in time going negative to normal time and distance was an unknown, or could not exist.

This was back a good many years, but I know that fellow still works for them.

Probably not many folk (I know I can't) in the world who can wrap their mind around such math. Even fewer can look at that type math and see the real world implication of it.

If someone figures it all out, then perhaps such is possible.

Soon as they get the bugs worked out I want a firefly class ship and I"m so out of here.

:-)
 

TheSearcher

Are you sure about that?
I knew a mathematician when I worked for NASA that loved taking

E=MC^2 and solving that equation by letting time go to zero over time.

Essentially it was a exploration of folding time and mass to achieve instantaneous transfer of mass from point a to point b.

I'm not and wasn't pre-stroke the best at theoretical math, but I asked him what happened at 2C (twice the speed of light)

He spent some time playing around with it, and said that I may have pointed him to something valuable as it resulted in time going negative to normal time and distance was an unknown, or could not exist.

This was back a good many years, but I know that fellow still works for them.

Probably not many folk (I know I can't) in the world who can wrap their mind around such math. Even fewer can look at that type math and see the real world implication of it.

If someone figures it all out, then perhaps such is possible.

Soon as they get the bugs worked out I want a firefly class ship and I"m so out of here.

:-)

Just to be a complete geek, I'd like to point out that Firefly ships were sub-light. Very fast around a solar system, to be sure, but that's all they could do.
 

Dosadi

Brown Coat
So when Mal leads the reavers back to the gov fleet, they weren't Jumping?

I love the movie, but I'll admit that

A. My space knowledge is not as good as it could be.

B. I like firefly because the browncoats are giving the finger to big statist type tyranny, not for the technology ideas.

I suppose one could sub in that given the opportunity to go to a new free frontier I would go. Firefly is just a symbol of that in my mind.

One of the lamentable things is that there is no longer a frontier for people who don't like gov't interfering with everything they do no longer exist for them to retreat to.

No matter where one goes there is always someone claiming to rule over them. It's kinda like the fact that watching the Former Republic of America turn into an oligarch police state tyranny is so bad. There is no place to go to that offers hope of the old freedom and liberty of that glorious republic.
 

TheSearcher

Are you sure about that?
So when Mal leads the reavers back to the gov fleet, they weren't Jumping?

I love the movie, but I'll admit that

A. My space knowledge is not as good as it could be.

B. I like firefly because the browncoats are giving the finger to big statist type tyranny, not for the technology ideas.

I suppose one could sub in that given the opportunity to go to a new free frontier I would go. Firefly is just a symbol of that in my mind.

One of the lamentable things is that there is no longer a frontier for people who don't like gov't interfering with everything they do no longer exist for them to retreat to.

No matter where one goes there is always someone claiming to rule over them. It's kinda like the fact that watching the Former Republic of America turn into an oligarch police state tyranny is so bad. There is no place to go to that offers hope of the old freedom and liberty of that glorious republic.

I believe a voiceover in the movie makes it clear that everything is in a single solar system, though they certainly go much faster when going from planet to planet than when around a particular planet. That would be jump of sorts I suppose.

As for the symbolism of Firefly and the general need for a frontier that allows liberty again, I agree. I am working on that, and I think space is really the key in the long term. I'd like to see it become so in the near term.
 

TerryK

TB Fanatic
here is a link to a word doc that explains exactly how the thruster works.

www.emdrive.com/Toulouse2010paper01.doc

The thruster uses a cone shaped wave guide closed at both ends, into which microwaves are injected. It operates at resonate frequency so it's dimensions are dependent on the frequency of the microwaves. The microwaves bounce back and forth in the closed waveguid and due to the waveguide shape generate unequal force on each end. When this force causes movement of the engine a loss of the microwave momentum occurs in the chamber which is instantly replaced by more microwaves being injected.
Facinating reading depending on your ability to follow the math.
They are already constructing thrusters with 1 newton of thrust, that can be mounted on panels that can be gimbaled to control the thrust vector.
They are talking about the immediate primary use of these thrusters is to maintain normally decaying satellite orbits, and to boost low level satellites out into geosynchronous orbits. They are also saying that since these propulsion systems generate no exhaust plume in space, changes in orbits to sneak them in closer to military satellites will necessitate military satellites having these same kind of thrusters.
Folks this is not a FTL engine. It is an engine that does not have to eject mass out it's tail end in order to achieve thrust.
That is revolutionary.
 

TheSearcher

Are you sure about that?
here is a link to a word doc that explains exactly how the thruster works.

www.emdrive.com/Toulouse2010paper01.doc

The thruster uses a cone shaped wave guide closed at both ends, into which microwaves are injected. It operates at resonate frequency so it's dimensions are dependent on the frequency of the microwaves. The microwaves bounce back and forth in the closed waveguid and due to the waveguide shape generate unequal force on each end. When this force causes movement of the engine a loss of the microwave momentum occurs in the chamber which is instantly replaced by more microwaves being injected.
Facinating reading depending on your ability to follow the math.
They are already constructing thrusters with 1 newton of thrust, that can be mounted on panels that can be gimbaled to control the thrust vector.
They are talking about the immediate primary use of these thrusters is to maintain normally decaying satellite orbits, and to boost low level satellites out into geosynchronous orbits. They are also saying that since these propulsion systems generate no exhaust plume in space, changes in orbits to sneak them in closer to military satellites will necessitate military satellites having these same kind of thrusters.
Folks this is not a FTL engine. It is an engine that does not have to eject mass out it's tail end in order to achieve thrust.
That is revolutionary.

You're right, it is revolutionary. Absolutely a game changer for interplanetary flight. What is also being considered is that measurements made of this new thruster are ALSO indicating that it is creating warp bubbles. There are two major things going on.
 

TerryK

TB Fanatic
a
http://emdrive.com/faq.html

SPR Ltd.


Home Background Benefits Theory Development Applications Future FAQ



FAQ​
Theory
1.
Q. Is the thrust produced by the EmDrive a reactionless force?
A. No, the thrust is the result of the reaction between the end plates of the waveguide and the Electromagnetic wave propagated within it.
2.
Q. How can a net force be produced by a closed waveguide?
A. At the propagation velocities (greater than one tenth the speed of light) the effects of special relativity must be considered. Different reference planes have to be used for the EM wave and the waveguide itself. The thruster is therefore an open system and a net force can be produced.
3.
Q. Why does the net force not get balanced out by the axial component of the sidewall force?
A. The net force is not balanced out by the axial component of the sidewall force because there is a highly non linear relationship between waveguide diameter and group velocity. (e.g. at cut off diameter, the group velocity is zero, the guide wavelength is infinity, but the diameter is clearly not zero.) The design of the cavity is such that the ratio of end wall forces is maximised, whilst the axial component of the sidewall force is reduced to a negligible value.
4.
Q. Does the theory of the EmDrive contravene the accepted laws of physics or electromagnetic theory?
A. The EmDrive does not violate any known law of physics. The basic laws that are applied in the theory of the EmDrive operation are as follows:​

  1. Newton’s laws are applied in the derivation of the basic static thrust equation (Equation 11 in the theory paper) and have also been demonstrated to apply to the EmDrive experimentally.

    The law of conservation of momentum is the basis of Newtons laws and therefore applies to the EmDrive. It is satisfied both theoretically and experimentally.

    The law of conservation of energy is the basis of the dynamic thrust equation which applies to the EmDrive under acceleration,(see Equation 16 in the theory paper).

    The principles of electromagnetic theory are used to derive the basic design equations.​
5.
Q. Why does the EmDrive not contravene the conservation of momentum when it operates in free space?
A. The EmDrive cannot violate the conservation of momentum. The electromagnetic wave momentum is built up in the resonating cavity, and is transferred to the end walls upon reflection. The momentum gained by the EmDrive plus the momentum lost by the electromagnetic wave equals zero. The direction and acceleration that is measured, when the EmDrive is tested on a dynamic test rig, comply with Newtons laws and confirm that the law of conservation of momentum is satisfied.
6.
Q. Is the EmDrive a form of perpetual motion machine?
A. The EmDrive obeys the law of conservation of energy and is therefore not a perpetual motion machine. Energy must be expended to accelerate the EmDrive (see Equation 16 of the theory paper). Once the EmDrive is switched off, Newton’s laws ensure that motion is constant unless it is acted upon by another force.
7.
Q. Why does the thrust decrease as the spacecraft velocity along the thrust vector increases?
A. As the spacecraft accelerates along the thrust vector, energy is lost by the engine and gained as additional kinetic energy by the spacecraft. This energy can be defined as the thrust multiplied by the distance through which the thrust acts. For a given acceleration period, the higher the mean velocity, the longer the distance travelled, hence the higher the energy lost by the engine.
This loss of stored energy from the resonant cavity leads to a reduction in Q and hence a reduction of thrust.
Test procedures
8.
Q. Has buoyancy been allowed for?
A. Buoyancy has been allowed for in the initial experiments and then eliminated by hermetically sealing the thruster.
9.
Q. Are there any convection currents which might affect the results?
A. Convection currents did not affect the results, as measurements were taken with the thrust vector up, down and horizontal. Test runs were also carried out using a thermal simulation heater to quantify the effects of change of coolant temperature.
10.
Q. Has stiffness in cables and pipes been allowed for?
A. The only connections to the balance were high flex electrical links
11.
Q. Has friction in any pivots been allowed for?
A. Static thrust measurements were carried out using 3 different techniques – a counterbalance rig with a knife edge pivot, a direct weighing method using a 16kg balance (0.1 gm resolution), and with the thruster suspended from a spring balance with the weight partly offloaded on to an electronic balance.
12.
Q. Have electromagnetic effects been taken into account? These include interactions between current-carrying conductors and between such conductors carrying RF currents and nearby metallic structures in which currents might be induced.
A. Stray electromagnetic effects were eliminated by using different test rigs, by testing two thrusters with very different mounting structures, and by changing the orientation by 90 degrees to eliminate the Earth’s magnetic field.
13.
Q. Is there any ionization within the air, which might cause electrostatic charging and resulting forces?
A. Electrostatic charges were eliminated by the comprehensive earthing required for safety reasons, and to provide the return path for the magnetron anode current.
14.
Q. Could RF pick-up measurement circuits have produced erroneous results?
A. EMC tests were carried out on the instrumentation to eliminate the effects of RF pick up.
15.
Q. Could acceleration be caused by spurious torques generated by the air bearing?
A. Dynamic tests are preceded by an acceleration calibration test, using standard weights to determine the air bearing friction.
16.
Q. Could acceleration be caused by anomalous thermal or electromagnetic effects?
A. Acceleration and deceleration tests have been carried out in both clockwise and anti-clockwise directions Acceleration from rest only starts when the magnetron output frequency matches the resonant frequency of the engine, following an initial warm-up period.
Applications
17.
Q. Can the technology be qualified for space applications?
A. Yes, all the basic microwave, power supply, thermal and control technologies are similar to flight equipment currently used on high power communication satellites.
18.
Q. How can the EmDrive produce enough thrust for terrestrial applications?
A. The second generation engines will be capable of producing a specific thrust of 30kN/kW. Thus for 1 kilowatt (typical of the power in a microwave oven) a static thrust of 3 tonnes can be obtained, which is enough to support a large car. This is clearly adequate for terrestrial transport applications.
The static thrust/power ratio is calculated assuming a superconducting EmDrive with a Q of 5 x 109. This Q value is routinely achieved in superconducting cavities.
Note however, because the EmDrive obeys the law of conservation of energy, this thrust/power ratio rapidly decreases if the EmDrive is used to accelerate the vehicle along the thrust vector. (See Equation 16 of the theory paper). Whilst the EmDrive can provide lift to counter gravity, (and is therefore not losing kinetic energy), auxiliary propulsion is required to provide the kinetic energy to accelerate the vehicle.​
 

Dosadi

Brown Coat
Yea! for a new frontier.

I will have to drive over to Huntsville in the next month to go to the PX and do some other business at Redstone (Marshal Space Flight and Redstone are kind of together.)

I'll see if I can eat lunch with the Fellow over at NASA and pick his thought on this.

It sure sounds promising.

Actually if we ever get habitable other worlds it would go a long way to assuring that the human race could avoid blowing itself back to the stone age.

One can hope.

Once upon a time everyone who desired freedom wanted to come to the Republic.

After coming here, those who wanted even less gov went west and settled and built a life for themselves.

It would be nice to see that available again.

There always should be new horizons for those who just don't fit with the current paradigms available in the more settled areas.

I know that there is good and bad and that out on a frontier it can be magnified, but without options, the stress stays inside until it boils over.

I enjoyed reading all this stuff. Hope springs eternal in the human heart is what I feel when I see such things.
 

tanstaafl

Has No Life - Lives on TB
"Solar energy created by the sun provides the electricity to power microwaves ..."

The probes to the outer Solar System don't use solar panels because the sunlight is so relatively weak out there. If there's not enough solar energy to power a small space probe, then there's almost certainly not enough solar energy to power a much, MUCH bigger manned ship.
 

Millwright

Knuckle Dragger
_______________
Yea! for a new frontier.
Actually if we ever get habitable other worlds it would go a long way to assuring that the human race could avoid blowing itself back to the stone age.


HEH


IF we got to that point, the first thing liberals would demand is for a ghetto to be built in a new world.


Gotsta have sum diversity.
 

Blue 5

Veteran Member
Q. How can the EmDrive produce enough thrust for terrestrial applications?
A. The second generation engines will be capable of producing a specific thrust of 30kN/kW. Thus for 1 kilowatt (typical of the power in a microwave oven) a static thrust of 3 tonnes can be obtained, which is enough to support a large car. This is clearly adequate for terrestrial transport applications.
The static thrust/power ratio is calculated assuming a superconducting EmDrive with a Q of 5 x 109. This Q value is routinely achieved in superconducting cavities.
Note however, because the EmDrive obeys the law of conservation of energy, this thrust/power ratio rapidly decreases if the EmDrive is used to accelerate the vehicle along the thrust vector. (See Equation 16 of the theory paper). Whilst the EmDrive can provide lift to counter gravity, (and is therefore not losing kinetic energy), auxiliary propulsion is required to provide the kinetic energy to accelerate the vehicle.

Does this mean I can finally get my flying car? I want a blue one. :)
 

Housecarl

On TB every waking moment
"Solar energy created by the sun provides the electricity to power microwaves ..."

The probes to the outer Solar System don't use solar panels because the sunlight is so relatively weak out there. If there's not enough solar energy to power a small space probe, then there's almost certainly not enough solar energy to power a much, MUCH bigger manned ship.

You match this announcement with the Skunk Works talking about their fusion reactor work and the VASIMR system I posted on earlier and things start to get really interesting.

It also has to be remembered the level of technology a sailing ship and navigation represented in the 1600s for the cultures of that time.
 

tanstaafl

Has No Life - Lives on TB
You match this announcement with the Skunk Works talking about their fusion reactor work and the VASIMR system I posted on earlier and things start to get really interesting.

It also has to be remembered the level of technology a sailing ship and navigation represented in the 1600s for the cultures of that time.

Cross this thread with the submarine thread and put a boomer in orbit with the EMDrive! Now THAT would be seriously cool! :)
 

Housecarl

On TB every waking moment
For links see article source.....
Posted for fair use.....
http://www.examiner.com/article/inv...-em-drive-roger-shawyer-is-feeling-vindicated

Inventor of the 'impossible' EM Drive Roger Shawyer is feeling vindicated

Mark Whittington
Houston Space News Examiner
May 1, 2015
6:00 AM MST

According to a Thursday story in the International Business Times, no one is more satisfied or feeling more vindicated about the recent test in a vacuum by NASA of the “impossible” EM Drive than the device’s inventor, British scientist Roger Shawyer. He is placing the world’s aerospace industry on notice that everything is about to change. Shawyer is also working on a new generation of the EM Drive, which he says will by orders of magnitude more powerful than the current one. He is hinting that he has backers, whom he refuses to name thus far.

Space visionaries have suggested that the EM drive will change space travel, opening up the moon. Mars, and the outer solar system to human explorers. Since the technology does not use rocket fuel, a nuclear power plant will be all that is needed to send spacecraft anywhere in the solar system. Interstellar travel becomes more possible, with Alpha Centauri just about a century away.

Shawyer suggests more Earthly applications, including the ability to deploy solar power satellites and “sun shades” to cool big cities in the summer. He even suggests that the EM Drive may help replace long-haul jet travel in some way.

Shawyer’s vision is all heady stuff. But he has come a long way since 2006 when he was universally ridiculed for building a device that seemed to violate the laws of physics as currently understood. Now, he suggests, a lot of private companies are working to develop the EM Drive into something practical. In a way, he is serving notice that the world needs to embrace the new technology or be left behind.


Suggested Links
NASA test of 'impossible' EM Drive that uses no propellant in a vacuum a success
NASA confirms results for 'impossible' space drive that uses no rocket fuel
NASA successfully tests engine that uses no fuel, violates the laws of physics
Propellentless drive tested by NASA could enable expeditions to Saturn
 

Housecarl

On TB every waking moment
For links see article source.....
Posted for fair use.....
http://www.redorbit.com/news/space/...ot-accidentally-invent-the-warp-drive-050115/

No, NASA did not accidentally invent the warp drive

May 1, 2015
Chuck Bednar for redOrbit.com – @BednarChuck

Space enthusiasts and sci-fi geeks everywhere (including those of us at redOrbit) pretty much broke the Internet on Thursday after online reports surfaced indicating that NASA scientists may have accidentally discovered warp-speed travel.

Those rumors stemmed from information posted on the NASASpaceflight.com forums regarding the EM Drive, a proposed method of interstellar vehicle propulsion that uses an electrical power source, has no moving parts, requires no material fuel and breaks the laws of physics.

In its report, Tech Times cites one forum post, which reads, “…this signature (the interference pattern) on the EmDrive looks just like what a warp bubble looks like. And the math behind the warp bubble apparently matches the interference pattern found in the EmDrive.”

Based on those comments, the website said, it was “entirely possible” that NASA has created a “stable warp bubble” that could make “faster-than-light travel” a possibility. Other online media outlets, including CNET, io9 and IFL Science (among many others), also posted versions of the report ranging from “the EM Drive works” to “ZOMG! Here comes warp speed!”

So could the rumors actually be true?

As cool as it would be to travel faster than the speed of light ala Star Trek, sadly, it does not look like we’ll be doing it anytime soon. If you visit the NASASpaceflight.com forums and check out the discussion, you’ll see that it is rather complex and technical in nature – highly open to misinterpretation by those of us without a Ph.D. in our pocket.

The EM Drive, also known as the electromagnetic drive, could theoretically propel objects to near-relativistic speeds, according to io9, and NASA Eagleworks has apparently been working with the device to see if they can make it work in a space-like vacuum. If that the site reports is accurate, they may have done that, but there are still other obstacles to overcome.

For instance, the EM Drive appears to violate conventional physics and the law of conservation of momentum. It allegedly converts energy to thrust without requiring a propellant, doing so by firing microwaves into a closed container. Without the expulsion of propellant, however, there is nothing to offset the change in the spacecraft’s momentum when it accelerates.

If the technology could somehow be proven to work, it could provide faster, cheaper and more efficient travel throughout the solar system and beyond – and yes, in theory, it could potentially lead to the development of a warp drive. But for now, as NASA itself explained, while there are “some credible concepts in scientific literature, however it’s too soon to know if they are viable,” meaning that “traveling at the speed of light is simply imaginary at present.”

One expert’s take on the possibilities of warp speed

RedOrbit asked Robert J. Scherrer, a cosmologist, professor and chair of the Department of Physics and Astronomy at Vanderbilt University in Nashville, about all of these wild rumors and about the possibility of warp-speed travel as a whole – and, well, try not to be too bummed out by his response.

“Here’s the bottom line. We don’t really think faster-than-light travel is possible,” he said via email. “The lightspeed limit is written into the DNA of special relativity, and it is therefore part of the foundation of almost all of modern physics. And more importantly (since physics is at its core based on experimental evidence), we’ve never actually observed it.

“That’s why when an experimental group a few years ago claimed that maybe neutrinos could travel faster than the speed of light, their claims were met with extraordinary scrutiny, and ultimately shown to be incorrect,” Scherrer added. “Now the ‘warp drive’ proposed by Alcubierre, is a slightly different animal. It relies on the possibility of warping space-time, so that you get to go as fast as you want while not violating relativity.”

The problem with that, the professor explained, is that it mandates a violation of the “weak energy condition,” which stipulates that for every timelike vector field, the matter density that is observed by the corresponding onlookers must always be non-negative. While it isn’t possible to prove that the weak energy condition has to be satisfied, he said, strange, never-before-seen things (such as negative energy densities) start to happen if it isn’t.

“If there is a claim of faster-than-light travel using a table-top experiment, I would be instantly skeptical,” Scherrer concluded. “And sadly, I don’t think we’ll see faster-than-light travel in our lifetimes, or ever, for that matter. Sorry to be a wet blanket. I am always happy to be proven wrong.”

I think we all know how Han feels at this point.
 

Housecarl

On TB every waking moment
For links see article source.....
Posted for fair use.....
http://news.yahoo.com/no-warp-drive-nasa-downplays-impossible-em-drive-193528141.html

No Warp Drive Here: NASA Downplays 'Impossible' EM Drive Space Engine

SPACE.com
By Elizabeth Howell
11 hours ago

Despite the fevered reports rocketing around the Internet recently, NASA is not on the verge of developing a fuel-free, faster-than-light propulsion system, space agency officials stress.

A team based at NASA's Johnson Space Center (JSC) in Houston reportedly tested a prototype engine system in a vacuum recently and determined that it produced a small amount of thrust. This news was disclosed on a NASASpaceflight.com forum earlier this year, and last week, it hit the broader Internet with a vengeance, as some pieces linked the technology to a long-sought "warp drive."

Why all the attention? The novel thruster system is based on the EmDrive, a British invention said to create thrust without propellant by bouncing microwaves around inside a chamber. If it works, the engine could revolutionize spaceflight — and it would apparently violate the laws of physics, as well. [Superfast Spacecraft Propulsion Concepts (Images)]

But NASA is downplaying the research and its potential to deliver a huge propulsion breakthrough in the near future.

"While conceptual research into novel propulsion methods by a team at NASA's Johnson Space Center in Houston has created headlines, this is a small effort that has not yet shown any tangible results," NASA officials told Space.com in a statement. "NASA is not working on 'warp drive' technology."
Not much information

The novel space engine design would seem to produce more energy than is put into it, violating the law of conservation of energy, which (simply put) says that energy cannot be destroyed or created.

"The reason it's controversial is, it violates Newton's Third Law," Brian Koberlein, an astrophysicist who studies general relativity and computational astrophysics, told Space.com.

It's possible that electromagnetic leaks in the chamber or coupling with Earth's magnetic field are responsible for the supposedly impossible result, said Koberlein, who is based at the Rochester Institute of Technology. But the recent test in the vacuum chamber, if it is indeed valid, does rule out another prosaic explanation — that the engine was pushing against Earth's atmosphere in some way, he added.

Outside scientists are understandably eager to know just what the JSC Eagleworks team has managed to achieve, and how they did it. But observers can't perform such an evaluation at the moment, because the work hasn't been submitted for peer review, said Koberlein.

Indeed, all that outside researchers really have to go on is the NASASpaceflight.com forum, which includes a thread of posts stretching back several years, discussing the development of the EmDrive. (Paul March, an engineer on the Eagleworks team doing the work, contributed to the discussion on the forum. When contacted by Space.com, he referred queries to his boss, JSC engineer Harold "Sonny" White, who did not respond to requests for an interview.)

It's unclear from these forum posts if the prototype propulsion system actually generated any thrust during the recent tests, said Ethan Siegel, a physics and astronomy professor at Lewis & Clark College in Portland, Oregon. Siegel also wrote about the EmDrive in Forbes Magazine, to which he regularly contributes.

Siegel said he is seeing claims of thrust happening just a few times over many tests, with a frequency that is "not inconsistent with random chance." Further, the thrust that was produced in these rare instances was apparently just above the margin of error for measurement, he added. [Gallery: Visions of Interstellar Starship Travel]

"It's tens of micronewtons, less than the weight of a snowflake," Siegel told Space.com. Specifically, Siegel said he is seeing reports of anywhere between 50 and 70 micronewtons. The error bar of measurement, however, is reported as between 15 and 30 micronewtons.

"You want a signal that's way, way bigger than errors you can measure," he said.

Looking for breakthroughs

Siegel said he hopes the NASA Eagleworks team members continue their research into the drive's development.

"It's to make sure we give this the third-degree treatment and scrutinize it as much as we can," he said. "We do not want false hope for a miracle device that is never going to happen. Before we believe this, let's do all of the robust tests, look at all the criteria and make sure we're not fooling ourselves."

Koberlein emphasized that part of NASA's mandate is to fund research that follows interesting leads, but that may not necessarily end up producing a working prototype.

"Because NASA is a government research organization," he told Space.com, the agency is "like venture capitalists. They are developing tried and true technologies … but they will also put money into things that are extremely blue-sky."

Some NASA research does indeed attempt to make big, game-changing breakthroughs, agency officials wrote in their statement to Space.com.

"The agency does fund very fundamental research as part of our advanced concepts and innovative investments that push the frontiers of science and engineering," they wrote. "This is part of what NASA does in exploring the unknown, and the agency is committed to and focused on the priorities and investments identified by the NASA Strategic Space Technology Investment Plan.Through these investments, NASA will develop the capabilities necessary to send humans further into space than ever before."

Follow Elizabeth Howell @howellspace, or Space.com @Spacedotcom. We're also on Facebook and Google+. Originally published on Space.com.
 

Trivium Pursuit

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Within our system, which is what this is good for, is very good indeed. Remember also that something else might be discovered in the course of tinkering with/improving on this system. The Singulariy is Near indeed. Now all we have to do is to figure out how to cheaply get out of our own gravity well. THEN it will be a gold rush, mining asteroids, etc. Belters...
 

Giskard

Only human
Just a hunch based on past history, but you do realize if a government agency is disclosing new tech, we have probably had it for over 10 years and it has since been rendered obsolete by newer tech, right?
 

Blacknarwhal

Let's Go Brandon!
You fellas might want to pick up a copy of Elite: Dangerous for your PCs, or get one for an Xbox One when it comes out later this year.

It's said to be an accurate simulation of the entire Milky Way. Figure out where you're going before you can get a Firefly ship.

I wonder if they make brown coats in big 'n' tall men's sizes.
 

Housecarl

On TB every waking moment
Posted for fair use.....

Daniel Oberhaus
Science
05.08.2020 08:00 AM
NASA's EmDrive Leader Has a New Interstellar Project
Harold White left NASA in December to join a new nonprofit focused on building the technologies to bring humans to the outer solar system and beyond.

The solar system isn’t big enough for Harold White—but it’s a start. The 54-year-old physicist has devoted his career to researching advanced propulsion concepts that he hopes may carry humans to the outer solar system and eventually into the uncharted wilderness of interstellar space. Conventional rocket engines are too slow to cover these vast distances on human timescales, so White has focused on more exotic solutions like faster-than-light warp drives and quantum vacuum thrusters that get a boost from space-time itself.

White’s research pedigree may sound like it was cribbed from a mad scientist in a pulp sci-fi novel, but most of his work was done as the leader of NASA’s Advanced Propulsion Physics Lab at Johnson Space Center. The lab, which White christened Eagleworks, was founded in 2009 to explore the frontier of physics in search of the next big breakthrough in space power and propulsion. In December, White left the lab he led for a decade to head up R&D at the Limitless Space Institute, a new nonprofit in Houston working to accelerate the human exploration of interstellar space.

“It seemed like a great opportunity to more purposefully pursue advanced power and propulsion with a little more intensity,” says White. “It was a personal choice and the next step for me to take in terms of my pinnacle objective: enabling human exploration of the outer solar system and other stars.”

Limitless Space Institute was founded last year by Kam Ghaffarian, an engineer and entrepreneur who also founded the nuclear energy company X-energy and Stinger Ghaffarian Technologies, one of the largest engineering contractors for NASA. His new organization plans to foster advanced space power and propulsion technologies through a mix of in-house research, grants, and partnerships with other institutions, including NASA’s Eagleworks. Earlier this month, Ghaffarian announced the nonprofit’s first round of Interstellar Initiative Grants, which will award researchers up to $250,000 to work on problems related to interstellar travel.

“The initiative was set up to foster and sponsor other people pursuing theoretical and empirical work that will hopefully help increase the maturity and capability of the interstellar research community,” says White.

Rocket about to lift off

The WIRED Guide to Commercial Human Space Flight
Everything you need to know about Blue Origin, SpaceX, Virgin Galactic, and what actually happens to your body if you go live in space.
By Sarah Scoles

Limitless will select its first round of grantees in September, and the institute will give applicants carte blanche to determine what kind of research they want to do. The only stipulation in the call for proposals is that the research should ultimately be about making spacecraft “go incredibly fast.” In the meantime, White says the institute is focusing on a few core research topics related to power and propulsion. Some of these areas include working with known physics and engineering concepts. For example, the institute plans to partner with universities to develop small-scale nuclear reactors that produce no more than 10 megawatts of power. White says these reactors will first be developed for terrestrial applications with an eye toward integrating them with spacecraft later on.

White will also be conducting research that grows out of his work at NASA on the EmDrive, a so-called “impossible engine” that produces thrust without propellant by bouncing radio waves around in a metal cone. The EmDrive test device used by White and his colleagues was a copper frustum—a cone with its top lopped off—that was just under a foot long. During tests it was placed in a vacuum chamber, and a device outside the chamber sent microwaves to antennas inside the cone. How those microwaves generate thrust inside the cone is a subject of divisive theoretical debate.
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If the EmDrive or something like it works, it would be a huge boon to space exploration. We’d no longer have to haul all our fuel with us, which is a major limitation on how far humans can travel into space. It could also potentially produce way more thrust than a conventional engine. This means human missions to the outer solar system might only take a year or two, rather than a decade. But the real icing on the cake is that an EmDrive—or something like it—would blow open the door to interstellar travel. Our closest stellar neighbor is 4 light years away; it would take thousands of years to reach it with a conventional rocket. If we want to head to the stars, we’re going to need a souped-up engine.

In 2016, White and his team at NASA published the first peer-reviewed experimental evidence that appeared to show the EmDrive actually producing thrust. The results of White’s experiment and the theory behind it remain controversial. No one can agree about whether the device actually produced thrust or how to explain it if it did. But the fact that NASA was even supporting this kind of far-out research was good news for anyone planning a vacation to Alpha Centauri.

At Limitless, White wants to take the research even further, but he won’t be building any engines—at least not yet. Instead, he’ll be probing the fundamental physics that he and others believe may explain how exotic propulsion systems like the EmDrive work. He calls it a dynamic vacuum model, and it cuts to the heart of what we talk about when we talk about “physical reality.”

Most physicists today view the physical world as a soup of subatomic particles like photons, quarks, and neutrinos in which the location of a particle at any given time is a matter of probability. This picture of reality is known as the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics. It may be the most popular scientific theory of reality, but it’s far from the only one. A competing view, known as pilot wave theory, says the quantum world is deterministic. In this theory, subatomic particles are “piloted” along a definite path like a train on its tracks, and the only reason their location appears nondeterministic is that we don’t understand the deeper quantum field that may ultimately constitute reality.

This quantum field is referred to as the quantum vacuum and can be thought of as the vast, undulating floor upon which the rest of reality is built. If you were to take all the matter out of the universe and bring the temperature down to absolute zero, the quantum vacuum would be what’s left. We’re accustomed to thinking of vacuums as totally empty, but the quantum vacuum is never truly empty. Electromagnetic waves and particles are popping in and out of existence all the time, and it’s these energy fluctuations that give rise to the physical world.

It’s pretty heady stuff, but if physicists can get a better understanding of the quantum vacuum—assuming it exists—they could, in principle, tap its energy to power a spacecraft. Indeed, this is a potential theoretical explanation White and his colleagues at NASA offered for how an engine like the EmDrive might be able to produce thrust. It’s hardly the only explanation—arguably the most convincing one is that the observed thrust was actually just a measurement error.

“Harold tried to come up with a theory to explain the EmDrive by calling it a quantum vacuum thruster,” says Martin Tajmar, a physicist at Dresden University of Technology who studies advanced propulsion systems. “His intuition is good, but the concepts he uses and cites are controversial. Only the experiment counts—no accepted theory has been put on the table that predicts any of this.”

It’s one thing to have a theory about why an EmDrive should work, and quite another to have experimental evidence of it in action. White and his colleagues at NASA appeared to have both, but so far no one has been able to replicate their results. Tajmar runs the SpaceDrive program at Dresden where he builds ultrasensitive devices capable of detecting almost imperceptible amounts of thrust. He uses these devices to try to replicate the results of EmDrive studies that appeared to produce thrust like the one conducted by White and his colleagues at NASA.

Tajmar hasn’t seen anything yet, but he says that doesn’t mean that probing the physics with experiments isn’t worthwhile. He compared it to high-temperature superconductivity, a physical phenomenon that may revolutionize electromagnetic technologies, but that wasn’t predicted in theory. “We need to be lucky, have a good intuition, and just try things that were never tested,” Tajmar says. “We were lucky to find high-temperature superconductivity by continuously trying, and hopefully the same thing will happen with breakthrough propulsion.”

At Limitless, White says he’s focused on the considerable task of demystifying and experimentally describing the fundamental physics of the dynamic vacuum model, rather than microwaving metal cones and hoping they produce enough thrust to send humans to the stars. In the last paper White and his colleagues published before he left NASA, they modeled the quantum vacuum around the nucleus of a single hydrogen atom. That’s a long way from an interstellar engine, but White sees it as a critical step on that path.

“There are several threads you have to pull on in the process of marching toward that goal,” he says. “Some of it will include practical steps that leverage known physics and engineering. But you still have to focus on stuff at the frontiers of physics to try to figure out if there are potential new approaches that you can use to meet the performance requirements to accomplish these goals.”

At Limitless, White plans to continue with his research on the quantum vacuum. He says the institute is manufacturing custom Casimir cavities—an experimental setup with two plates placed close together—to study the predicted characteristics and structure of the quantum vacuum believed to exist between the plates. “These things are not necessarily technology, they’re just physics experiments,” says White. “They may lead to things we could put together as a technology, but right now we’re just doing the science first.”

Not everyone is convinced White is headed in the right direction. Jim Woodward, a physicist at California State University, Fullerton, has devoted his career to advanced propulsion. He has an alternative theory explaining the EmDrive that doesn’t invoke quantum vacuums. Instead, he thinks, the thrust is produced by so-called “Mach effects,” which are derived from general relativity rather than quantum mechanics. In this theory, the EmDrive can produce thrust by harnessing the fluctuations in energy produced by the electromagnetic field in the EmDrive interacting with the gravitational field of everything else in the universe.

Woodward says most people working on advanced propulsion are “quantum vacuumers” like White, but he argues that their theories can’t explain why the EmDrive or other advanced propulsion systems would work without bringing gravity into the picture. “The world and its physics is the way it is, not as we would have it be,” says Woodward. “This is not a business for wishful thinkers. I predict that Limitless will have a very hard time finding anything worth funding, and such that they do will not pan out.”

Woodward isn’t just throwing rocks. He has made his own prototype propulsion system called the Mach Effect Gravity Assist drive, or MEGA. It doesn’t look like much—it’s a stack of ceramic disks placed between two small blocks—but it has scored $750,000 in NASA research grants. More importantly, Woodward and his colleagues have evidence that the MEGA drive produces thrust.

When an electric voltage is applied to the ceramic disks, it causes them to expand and push on one of the blocks. The theory of mach effects says that when an object accelerates—in this case, the block that is being pushed—it loses a little mass. When the ceramic disks in the middle contract, it gains that mass back. This means the block on the other side of the disks gets pulled forward more than the block with the changing mass gets pulled back. By doing this over and over, Woodward's data suggests the device accelerates forward. Woodward and two other groups have produced data that appear to show the MEGA device producing thrust, but follow-up tests by Tajmar at his lab in Dresden suggest that these may all turn out to be measurement errors too.
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It’s not hard to see why most research organizations might shy away from the types of projects that Limitless plans to fund. They’re the very definition of high risk, high reward. They might also seem a little idealistic at a time when NASA is struggling just to put people back on the moon. But White says pursuing this research will also benefit those of us stuck on terra firma.
“In trying to achieve great things, we can realize new technologies that help us in the here and now,” White says. “The long-term application may be interstellar travel, but exploring these things motivates us to push the boundary of what’s possible. And in the process, we can potentially make life better for everybody at home.”
 
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