CHAT Lithium batteries and fire supression

Old Gray Mare

TB Fanatic
Putting this out there for discussion cause I really don't know the answer for this one. Lithium batteries are becoming more and prevalent, iPhones, electronics, boats, RVs etc. Also noticed that some have blown up in a fiery display. How does one control or contain a fire like that?

ABC extinguishers were rated for electrical fires but that was prior to the development of Lithium batteries. Are they still effective in case of a Lithium blow up? Does the battery size matter? A 12 volt, 24 volt or 48 volt system in a boat is way bigger than an iPhone or laptop battery.

Would smothering and containing with a welding blanket be more effective or even an option? Are there newer options that are more appropriate and effective?

Larger banks could be monitored for heat but if they do start to over heat, other than not using them and hopefully letting them cool off, what is the best course of action?

Is it considered an electrical fire or a chemical fire? Both?

The thought of a lithium battery bank going up a few miles off shore in a classic plastic would not be good.
 
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Double_A

TB Fanatic
We need an expert here, maybe others with experience will chime in.

You need a fire extingisher rated for metal fires for Lithium Metal fires (For Lithium 123 batteries), but for lithium-ion rechargeable an ABC will do.
 

Macgyver

Has No Life - Lives on TB
I think that would be a purple K extinguisher.

Other than that I think you have to smother them.
 

LoupGarou

Ancient Fuzzball
For any Lithium Fire you need a Class D fire extinguisher, or some other way to smother the fire without using water.

Li-ION and LIHV of the (consumer grade batteries) are the worst when it comes to fires, LiFePO4 are much safer, but still have some issues.

If the battery pack is small (think handheld device) and you have a class D extinguisher, or some other way to dry smother it, if the battery is bigger than your head, call the pros and even still call it a total loss. Most firefighters will get there only to keep the surrounding area from catching fire.

And if you are looking for Class D fire extinguishers, get ready to spend several hundred dollars on even the smaller extinguishers.
 

LoupGarou

Ancient Fuzzball
One of my Amerex extinguishers is copper powder of some sort, and firing it off completely ruins anything electronic it touches, and leaves a massive mess to clean up. It looks like someone glitterbombed the place. The rest of the ones I have use regular table salt (Sodium Chloride), which as long as the equipment that it gets sprayed on is off and dry, it cleans up (fairly) easily.
 

Double_A

TB Fanatic
I think that would be a purple K extinguisher.

Other than that I think you have to smother them.

which is different than a Class K, extinguisher. Changeover of cooking oils requires now a class k to extinguish smother, blanket cooking oil fires.
 

LoupGarou

Ancient Fuzzball
And to answer your question on the welding blanket or other types of mechanical smothering, don't bother. It needs to be airtight and able to handle the continued heat. Once a Lithium cell goes into thermal runaway, there is no stopping it. The resultant heat and fire will burn thorough asbestos and almost anything else "fire retardant". Carbon, some salts, or certain other metals (like the copper powder) will help but even they are no guarantee if the battery bank is big enough.

One of my customers "100 miles north of here" has a VERY big LiFEeO4, battery bank for their server room to cover the generator's startup time. Earlier, when they were using Lead Acid batteries the cells were in the main building with them. When they went and changed out to LiFePO4s to get more capacity and service life, they were told that because of the array they had, even with LiFePO4s they had to put the battery packs in a separate building nearby (make a new building just for them), and run the AC and control circuits to and from the main building, just so if the batteries DID happen to go off, it would only be a total loss for that smaller building. And the system that is in the smaller building uses BIG tanks of compressed nitrogen to flood the battery area with salts with some sort of blow-off valve that starts the transfer down from the ceiling compartment. The person that did that install said something about the salt only going up to your chest height when it finally finishes dumping but to remember to cover your face if you are in there when it goes off so that the salt being sprayed around by the high pressure nitrogen does not sandblast your face off... I made it a policy of mine to not bother with that building at all...
 

AlaskaSue

North to the Future
This is one of the things asked at checkin to fly. I always double-check that I have no lithium batteries in luggage or carryon. I pray all the others on board do as well….I’m not really sure many folks know how bad it could be at 35k feet!
 

LoupGarou

Ancient Fuzzball
And yes, I personally have thousands of different Lithium cells, batteries and lithium powered devices. As long as they have a good BMS (Battery Management System) on the battery pack, you really have nothing to worry about with using them. It's when the cells go above or below their manufacturer's limits that things get bad. Most of the time the engineering was done right and the pack is safe, or will cut off and disable itself if things start to go over or under those voltage limits or other bad things happen. I have yet to have any of my battery packs that I use have any firey problems.
 

Old Gray Mare

TB Fanatic
Thanks Loup. You may have saved some a whole lot of pain.

I was told that puffy batteries are not good and to put them in a metal box until they can be properly disposed of. It wasn't explained what: "Properly disposed of" is. I imagine lithium batteries are considered hazmat? Any other signs of potential battery failure that should be monitored?
 

Knoxville's Joker

Has No Life - Lives on TB
And yes, I personally have thousands of different Lithium cells, batteries and lithium powered devices. As long as they have a good BMS (Battery Management System) on the battery pack, you really have nothing to worry about with using them. It's when the cells go above or below their manufacturer's limits that things get bad. Most of the time the engineering was done right and the pack is safe, or will cut off and disable itself if things start to go over or under those voltage limits or other bad things happen. I have yet to have any of my battery packs that I use have any firey problems.

The problem you run into are idiots that think they don't need that battery management system. And in the end what will happen after enough deaths is batteries can not be sold as replacement items they have to come with a management system and have to be removed to restore another system. Too many idiots think the charge can be done manually, and no, not really. I have been on the stress side of the argument on what a bad idea it is to not use a charge controller literally warning guys use a charge controller, what happens when it fails is on you.
 

LoupGarou

Ancient Fuzzball
Thanks Loup. You may have saved some a whole lot of pain.

I was told that puffy batteries are not good and to put them in a metal box until they can be properly disposed of. It wasn't explained what: "Properly disposed of" is. I imagine lithium batteries are considered hazmat? Any other signs of potential battery failure that should be monitored?

Failure or pre-fail evidence is not always visible. As Knoxville's Joker pointed out, the BMS should keep you from getting into the danger zone, it just won't let you use the battery or use it that much. The BMS is THE MOST IMPORTANT PART OF A LITHIUM PACK. And as he also said, the charge controller or battery charging system is the second most important thing to consider. I (ab)use the ISDT series of chargers for all my Lithium and AGM charging needs, including a Q6 Pro in all of my "power bags" and a couple of Q8 Max chargers for the bigger packs that I have that are still "portable". Either of them will charge any Lithium chemistry as well as any Lead Acid, Nickle Iron, or even any NiCd/NiMH. And they both have the flylead setup for balancing event the toughest of batteries. The Q8 Max can handle 8 cell Lithiums and balance close to 2A while charging at 30A, so you can really work on some big batteries with that one.

If you ever have had your laptop or other lithium battery powered device start getting "less and less capacity or runtime" it is because the onboard BMS is keeping ALL of the cells as a whole in that tight tolerance band of voltages. If one cell gets weak in your laptop's battery, the whole pack will act on that one cell's limits, so when that one cell gets too low, the pack shuts down rather than drag that cell lower than it's safety cutoff. Likewise, charging the pack back up suffers as well as that one weak cell gets charged quickly and the rest end up either slow charging through the BMS's equalization circuitry that tries to keep all of the cells at the same voltage, OR the rest of the pack never gets a full charge, which quickly ruins the rest of the pack.

BMS controllers do three things at MINIMUM, they keep the battery as a whole, and ANY individual cell from getting charged past their max voltage, or any cell getting discharged past their cutoff voltage. They also keep all of the cells "balanced" meaning they are at their same voltages EACH. The last main thing a BMS does is protect the pack against too much charge current or discharge current, especially at lower temperatures. BMS devices have different ways of doing each of these important roles, but at minimum they will open the circuit with one or both of the battery terminals to stop the charge or discharge of the battery if the voltage gets above or below safe setpoints, and they will try to equalize the voltage across each cell to keep the pack "balanced". Some BMS systems just throw a load (small resistor) across the higher voltage cells to pull them down to the voltage levels of the others, some use a charge pump scheme with inductors and capacitors to charge up a cap using the higher voltage cells and deliver it to the lower voltage cells. The ones using the resistor "load" are cheaper, and if you are charging daily work fine, but since they are a rather parasitic load on the pack, you don't want them for long term storage systems since they will be constantly draining down each cell to make them all match. For battery packs that you don't want to have to charge back up every few months, get the ones with the charge pumped BMS devices.

Most of my packs I have built myself, or at least rebuilt myself. I bought a BUNCH of the smaller 10-60AH batteries from companies like the better ones on Amazon since I use a LOT of 7AH to 65AH size batteries. Many of them I have torn apart, used the cells out of to put in other things, and put in better BMS systems as I did. I gutted a 20AH LiFePO4 back, to put in the bottom half of my Yaesu FT-897d radio since it was not only CHEAPER to go that route than Yaesu's NiMH packs, but also would give me 3 times the runtime AND be able to charge off of a normal 12V charger that could also be used on my AGM batteries. In the end, I had not only enough room in the radio's battery tray to put in a much better BMS, but also put in a solar charge controller so that I could plug in a 18V solar panel directly into the back of the radio and keep going.

Now, you do not need a BMS if you are talking about using a single cell in a device that only will discharge them and cuts off at around 2.0-2.4 volts, since you will be charging it somewhere else. That is why I pulled a LOT of old laptop batteries apart for their cells to be used in either radios or flashlights that only used one cell and did not try to charge that cell (or had a dedicated, smart voltage cutoff charger built in). The cells are safe in those devices without a BMS. Any other type of device, or one that uses multiple cells at one time, you will need a BMS in the system for safety and for long cell life. And there is nothing preventing anyone from making their own packs with a BMS using standard 18650 or 23650 cells in an appropriate cell holder so that you can swap the cells out if they get weak and keep going. This is all a "battery wall" is in most cases, your just making a smaller version.
 

Knoxville's Joker

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Yup and the best bet for most is to just default use a BMS. Regardless if it is one or more than one cell. Just keep in the habit and keep it safe.
 

Double_A

TB Fanatic
Yup and the best bet for most is to just default use a BMS. Regardless if it is one or more than one cell. Just keep in the habit and keep it safe.

For Lithium-ion rechargeable cells commonly used singly (not in a battery pack) as flashlight batteries these are commonly called "Protected cells" both flat-top and button-top, both can be had as protected cells. The protection circuit adds to the length a tiny bit, but enough the cell might not fit all flashlights.
 

Knoxville's Joker

Has No Life - Lives on TB
For Lithium-ion rechargeable cells commonly used singly (not in a battery pack) as flashlight batteries these are commonly called "Protected cells" both flat-top and button-top, both can be had as protected cells. The protection circuit adds to the length a tiny bit, but enough the cell might not fit all flashlights.

Those are all you can find for vape batteries now. Too many teens were killing themselves with overcharged batteries...
 

Double_A

TB Fanatic
Those are all you can find for vape batteries now. Too many teens were killing themselves with overcharged batteries...

Gotta know where to look, specialty shops for both types. Not gonna find them at Batteries R US.
Just bought $50+ of 14500's and 18650's and gonna buy another $50 soon.

I can't say for sure the year but sites like Candle Power Forum, had videos of flashlights blasting end caps off flashlights in people kitchens from charging issues close to 15 years ago. Impressive videos at the time.
 

Knoxville's Joker

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Gotta know where to look, specialty shops for both types. Not gonna find them at Batteries R US.
Just bought $50+ of 14500's and 18650's and gonna buy another $50 soon.

I could only source them off batteries.com. Nothing local. Something about vaping deaths. I asked. no local retailer was allowed to sell straight 18650s...
 

Old Gray Mare

TB Fanatic
I want to thank everyone who contributed to this thread because I truly had no idea about this information. A lot of the information I found on a brief search of the web seemed dated to before the proliferation of lithium batteries or were not forthcoming with much useful information.

Thanks Loup. Had not even heard of the concept of BMS prior to you mentioning it here.
 

Knoxville's Joker

Has No Life - Lives on TB
I want to thank everyone who contributed to this thread because I truly had no idea about this information. A lot of the information I found on a brief search of the web seemed dated to before the proliferation of lithium batteries or were not forthcoming with much useful information.

Thanks Loup. Had not even heard of the concept of BMS prior to you mentioning it here.

You are not wrong at all. The fire supression and containment are huge pains with batteries and a nightmare for fire fighters. Little known quirks until the Lithium battery tech went into hyperdrive so to speak...
 
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