CRIME Jennifer Crumbley Verdict: Oxford shooter's mom found guilty of involuntary manslaughter

mzkitty

I give up.

Jennifer Crumbley Verdict: Oxford shooter's mom found guilty of involuntary manslaughter​


Published February 6, 2024 1:39PM

PONTIAC, Mich. (FOX 2) - Jennifer Crumbley has been found guilty of four counts of involuntary manslaughter by a jury following her trial in Oakland County court.

The decision is a monumental one and the first of its kind in the U.S. Crumbley is the first parent of a mass shooter to be charged and convicted in connection with their child's crime. Four students who were enrolled at Oxford High School died following the shooting by Crumbley's then-15-year-old son.

The jury reached their verdict after deliberations began Monday morning. Her trial lasted seven days and included hours of witness testimony, surveillance video evidence, and thousands of text messages between her and her husband, her son, and others.

After hearing her fate, Judge Cheryl Matthews announced Crumbley's sentencing would be scheduled for April 9 at 9 a.m.


James Crumbley, Jennifer's husband, will take the stand in March during his own involuntary manslaughter trial. His wife's conviction may complicate his defense. Here's when the trial is expected to start.

Video here:



https://r.strateg.is/route
 

Countrymouse

Country exile in the city
They are basing it on the PARENTS having a gun in the home without "making it inaccessible" to the "troubled" teenager by not having a "Trigger Lock" on it.

Of course, having a gun in a home WITH a trigger-lock on it makes the gun virtually USELESS for ANY self-defense use by the parents.

Which is what this is REALLY all about.

GUN. CONTROL.


And making ANYONE AFRAID TO OWN A GUN--because YOU then become RESPONSIBLE if ANYONE takes that gun (even WITHOUT your knowledge or permission) and COMMITS A CRIME WITH IT.

In the article below the prosecutor below explains the "several small things" that the parents "could have done" to prevent this.

She IGNORES the fact that:
1. The teen took (stole) the gun without permission.
2. The teen had the gun in his possession without his parents' knowledge.
3. The teen had NOT communicated to his parents, nor shown any sign that they (and I'm assuming they're not trained psychiatrists) could see of having any severe mental problems, or of planning this shooting.

Anyone who's been a parent of a teen knows how common it is for teens to complain that life is no longer worth living, etc. They should not ignore such talk, but at the same time such talk does not necessarily clue the parents that their child is about to become a mass-shooter.

This is about making people AFRAID TO OWN GUNS because THEY could be held accountable for ANY crime ANYONE commits with them--even if they took the gun w/o permission / knowledge of the owner.

Prosecutor says Michigan mom didn't pull trigger but bears responsibility in son's school shooting​

By Brad Brooks
January 26, 202412:49 AM ESTUpdated 12 days ago





Jan 25 (Reuters) - Michigan prosecutors told jurors on Thursday that the mother of a boy who carried out a 2021 high school shooting failed to do several "tragically small and easy things" that could have prevented four deaths.
Jennifer Crumbley, 45, and her 47-year-old husband James Crumbley, who will be tried separately next month, are each charged with four counts of manslaughter.

Their son, Ethan, who was 15 at the time of the 2021 shooting at Oxford High School near Detroit, pleaded guilty in 2022 to two dozen counts, including four of first-degree murder, and last month was sentenced to life in prison without parole.

The involuntary manslaughter trial of Jennifer Crumbley is believed to be the first to target a parent of a school shooter.
Prosecutor Marc Keast told jurors during his opening that Jennifer Crumbley knew her son was in a "downward spiral" mentally, and that only she and her husband could have known of the danger that Ethan Crumbley posed to others, and that he had access to a gun.

Keast, the judge and the defense attorney all named those who were killed: Madisyn Baldwin, Tate Myre, Justin Shilling and Hana St. Juliana

"The evidence will show you that she didn't pull the trigger, but she is responsible for those deaths," Keast said. "She didn't do any number of tragically small and easy things that would have prevented all this from happening."
Shannon Smith, Jennifer Crumbley's defense attorney, said during her own opening that her client had no way of knowing that her son was going to kill four of his classmates.

"Jennifer Crumbley was the mother to a 15-year-old son and she did not have it on her radar in anyway that there was any mental disturbance, that her son would ever take a gun into a school, that her son would ever shoot people," Smith told jurors.
Jennifer Crumbley, parent of accused Oxford High School gunman Ethan Crumbley, is escorted into the courtroom by a Oakland Count Sheriff

Jennifer Crumbley, the parent of accused Oxford High School gunman Ethan Crumbley, is escorted into the courtroom by an Oakland County Sheriff during a court procedural hearing in Rochester Hills, Michigan, U.S., February 24, 2022.

Smith added that it was James Crumbley - and not Jennifer - who was in charge of making sure that a trigger lock was on the gun that Ethan used in the shooting.

Smith said Jennifer Crumbley would testify in her own defense.

Jennifer Crumbley earlier this week asked Sixth Judicial Circuit Court Judge Cheryl Matthews to force her son to testify, according to documents filed this week with the Pontiac, Michigan, court by her attorney Shannon Smith.

Public defenders representing Ethan Crumbley as he appeals his life sentence are fighting any order that would compel him to testify, and say they will advise him to invoke his right to remain silent if he is called.

Gun safety experts have said that they hope the Crumbley trials serve as a wake-up call for parents around the country to better secure weapons in their homes. About 75% of school shooters obtained the guns they used in attacks within their own homes, government research has shown.

Experts have said that the parents' trials break new legal ground.

Prosecutors say James Crumbley purchased the 9mm handgun used in the Oxford High attack four days before his son carried it out on Nov. 30, 2021.

On the morning of the shooting, a teacher discovered drawings by Ethan Crumbley that depicted a handgun, a bullet, and a bleeding figure next to the words "Blood everywhere," "My life is useless," and "The thoughts won't stop - help me."

The Crumbleys were called to the school on the morning of the shooting, and told that Ethan urgently needed counseling and they needed to take him home, prosecutors have said. The parents resisted the idea of taking their son home and did not search his backpack nor ask him about the gun. (Question--why didn't the SCHOOL search his backpack?)

Ethan Crumbley was returned to class and later walked out of a bathroom with the gun and began firing, prosecutors say.

Reporting by Brad Brooks in Longmont, Colorado; Editing by Donna Bryson, Chris Reese and Mark Porter
 

Countrymouse

Country exile in the city
If a kid is psychotic AND hates his parents, this verdict will encourage more school shootings.
Again, it's not about this kid OR his mom, OR his mental condition.

What this ruling does is TRANSFER responsibility for a crime from NOT JUST THE CRIMINAL WHO COMMITTED IT

to ANYONE in any way connected---making them ACCOMPLICES in his crime--even if the criminal STOLE from them the property he used in the commission of the crime.


SO:

1. You have a gun or guns.
2. Your gun is stolen.
3. Your gun is USED by the thief (or whomever HE passed it on to) to commit a crime.
4. YOU become responsible for the CRIME---even if YOU did not commit it and were no where NEAR the vicinity where it happened--because YOU "failed to secure" the gun.

Even if the gun was used SEVERAL YEARS later to commit the crime--after all, it would still go back to YOU not "securing" your gun.

THIS RULING IS A GUN-CONTROL RULING---DESIGNED TO MAKE GUN-OWNERS AFRAID TO OWN GUNS.
 

Abe Froman

Senior Member
Again, it's not about this kid OR his mom, OR his mental condition.

What this ruling does is TRANSFER responsibility for a crime from NOT JUST THE CRIMINAL WHO COMMITTED IT

to ANYONE in any way connected---making them ACCOMPLICES in his crime--even if the criminal STOLE from them the property he used in the commission of the crime.


SO:

1. You have a gun or guns.
2. Your gun is stolen.
3. Your gun is USED by the thief (or whomever HE passed it on to) to commit a crime.
4. YOU become responsible for the CRIME---even if YOU did not commit it and were no where NEAR the vicinity where it happened--because YOU "failed to secure" the gun.

Even if the gun was used SEVERAL YEARS later to commit the crime--after all, it would still go back to YOU not "securing" your gun.

THIS RULING IS A GUN-CONTROL RULING---DESIGNED TO MAKE GUN-OWNERS AFRAID TO OWN GUNS.
Totally agree with you.
This one will have massive un-“intended” consequences
 

Dennis Olson

Chief Curmudgeon
_______________
They are basing it on the PARENTS having a gun in the home without "making it inaccessible" to the "troubled" teenager by not having a "Trigger Lock" on it.

Of course, having a gun in a home WITH a trigger-lock on it makes the gun virtually USELESS for ANY self-defense use by the parents.

Which is what this is REALLY all about.

GUN. CONTROL.
No, it’s not. The mother admitted that the gun was for the boy, thus it was a straw purchase. Further, she knew her boy was mentally unstable AND didn’t lock up the gun.

Good verdict for a stupid parent.
 

Countrymouse

Country exile in the city
No, it’s not. The mother admitted that the gun was for the boy, thus it was a straw purchase. Further, she knew her boy was mentally unstable AND didn’t lock up the gun.

Good verdict for a stupid parent.
In the article I quoted, the prosecutor kept talking about "trigger locks".

Now you know and I know a gun kept in the home for self-defense, locked up in a safe or with trigger-locks, is useless in an emergency situation where you may need to get access to that gun quickly in regards to an intruder.

The prosecutor did not say the gun was purchased 'for' the boy (not contradicting you that the mother said that, just going by what the female prosecutor said) but just its presence in the home, "UNSECURED" (to use her words) made the parents guilty for what the son did with it.

From what I've read they were not good parents and it was a dysfunctional home, but the prosecutor kept zeroing in on two things:

Parents should have been mind-readers and able to predict the future (iow, they should have KNOWN their son wasn't experiencing normal teen mood-swings / depression but was severely mentally ill)--so since they didn't get him to a psychologist they're guilty)

Parents should make sure there is NO WAY a gun belonging to them can be used in commission of a crime--even if stolen / taken without their permission.

Again, Dennis--I'm not just talking about THIS case.

You know as well as me that "legal precedent" is what is used in ONE case to build support for a totally unrelated one.

Like the "privacy" clause in the Constitution was used to support abortion "rights"--something the Founding Fathers never dreamed of and most certainly would not have approved (they were for the right to life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness, per the Declaration; pity they didn't put those words in the Constitution as well).

I say again that this precedent will be used against ALL GUN OWNERS---ANY crime committed using a gun they owned (or, 'once' owned--how far in time are they responsible? Forever, I guess, if they "failed to secure" the weapon, so that it got into the 'wrong' hands!) will now make THEM liable.
 

Babs

Veteran Member
I strongly disagree with this verdict, and I actually watched a good amount of the trial. This is going to potentially have far reaching consequences. Are they horrible parents? Absolutely. But, this case is going to be used in ways that you won't want it to.
 

Dennis Olson

Chief Curmudgeon
_______________
n the article I quoted, the prosecutor kept talking about "trigger locks".
What part of SHE BOUGHT THE GUN SPECIFICALLY FOR HER EMOTIONALLY DISTURBED CHILD do you not understand?

I don’t give a pitcher of warm spit what the “fluff” issues are. That’s the core, and that’s why she got convicted. Do some more research.
 

Dennis Olson

Chief Curmudgeon
_______________
If their son had taken the car keys (to the car his parents allow him to drive) and plowed into a group of students in the high school parking lot killing several, would we have the same outcome?
No, but if she bought him a car after he evidenced a desire to run people down, then yes.
 

tortminder

Contributing Member
I agree with Dennis. This is a correct decision based on the manslaughter statutes. What has been overlooked is the culpability and failure of the school to take proper action while in loco parentis.

The school was concerned enough to call the parents in regarding the students behaviors. They made "suggestions" that the parents remand the student to proper mental health authorities. That was correct, as far as it went.

What the school didn't do was notify the police authorities that there was a student that they deemed was a threat to himself and others and that the student needed immediate mental health intervention.
What the school didn't do was present the parents with the option of voluntarily placing the student under psychiatric evaluation, or, if they failed to agree, to have the proper authorities take the student into custody to be psychiatrically evaluated.

It is the duty of schools to protect the lives and well being of students in their charge. Instead, the school allowed the parents to refuse to take their child for evaluation and returned the child to the classroom making the tragedy possible.

The parents were remiss and failed to take responsibility for their minor child. The school was remiss and failed to take responsibility for the safety and well being of all the students in their care.
The result of these failures was injury and death that did not need to happen.
 

Plain Jane

Just Plain Jane
What has been overlooked is the culpability and failure of the school to take proper action while in loco parentis.
That seems to be a consistent pattern for many of these shootings. Here is the original thread.



It may be that there are legal restrictions.
 

Countrymouse

Country exile in the city
What part of SHE BOUGHT THE GUN SPECIFICALLY FOR HER EMOTIONALLY DISTURBED CHILD do you not understand?

I don’t give a pitcher of warm spit what the “fluff” issues are. That’s the core, and that’s why she got convicted. Do some more research.
I admitted SHE did things wrong.

Now that we've beat that horse thoroughly to death, can we stop and consider how the courts will use this against YOU--and ME--and anyone who owns guns? Or a car? or ANYTHING that can be stolen and used to commit a crime that the liberal courts can say we didn't "secure" enough?
 

Countrymouse

Country exile in the city
I agree with Dennis. This is a correct decision based on the manslaughter statutes. What has been overlooked is the culpability and failure of the school to take proper action while in loco parentis.

The school was concerned enough to call the parents in regarding the students behaviors. They made "suggestions" that the parents remand the student to proper mental health authorities. That was correct, as far as it went.

What the school didn't do was notify the police authorities that there was a student that they deemed was a threat to himself and others and that the student needed immediate mental health intervention.
What the school didn't do was present the parents with the option of voluntarily placing the student under psychiatric evaluation, or, if they failed to agree, to have the proper authorities take the student into custody to be psychiatrically evaluated.

It is the duty of schools to protect the lives and well being of students in their charge. Instead, the school allowed the parents to refuse to take their child for evaluation and returned the child to the classroom making the tragedy possible.

The parents were remiss and failed to take responsibility for their minor child. The school was remiss and failed to take responsibility for the safety and well being of all the students in their care.
The result of these failures was injury and death that did not need to happen.
The school also had every right (and MANY schools have and DO) to SEARCH his backpack.

Had they done so, and found the gun--

the boy would have been taken into custody.

he would have been given a psychiatric exam.

things would have come out about the parents that possibly could have caused them to lose custody of their son.

I agree with tortminder.
 

et2

TB Fanatic
The son was with the father when the gun was purchased. He was asked if it was for him ( the father) he said it was.

Then gave it to his son as a gift, without any locks what so ever. That’s illegal. Kept it in his dresser drawer.

The father is going down too I suspect.
 

Babs

Veteran Member
What part of SHE BOUGHT THE GUN SPECIFICALLY FOR HER EMOTIONALLY DISTURBED CHILD do you not understand?

I don’t give a pitcher of warm spit what the “fluff” issues are. That’s the core, and that’s why she got convicted. Do some more research.

Did you watch the trial? At no point before the gun was purchased was there any "evidence" apparent to anyone, that he was unwell. The assistant principal even testified that he had never been in any trouble.

How many teenagers do you know? Every single one of them seem mentally ill at some point. They are going through a lot at that age. The school didn't even make him go home after they found the drawing.

The gun was locked and the key was hidden.

His notes were not found until AFTER the shooting.

Yes his mother was a terrible mother, but she had absolutely no idea, and neither did the school, that he was capable of doing this.
 

Dennis Olson

Chief Curmudgeon
_______________
Now that we've beat that horse thoroughly to death, can we stop and consider how the courts will use this against YOU--and ME--and anyone who owns guns?
Well, speaking strictly for myself, I’ll never make a straw purchase of a firearm for anyone. When it comes to firearms, I walk the straight and narrow path.
 

Seeker22

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Again, it's not about this kid OR his mom, OR his mental condition.

What this ruling does is TRANSFER responsibility for a crime from NOT JUST THE CRIMINAL WHO COMMITTED IT

to ANYONE in any way connected---making them ACCOMPLICES in his crime--even if the criminal STOLE from them the property he used in the commission of the crime.


SO:

1. You have a gun or guns.
2. Your gun is stolen.
3. Your gun is USED by the thief (or whomever HE passed it on to) to commit a crime.
4. YOU become responsible for the CRIME---even if YOU did not commit it and were no where NEAR the vicinity where it happened--because YOU "failed to secure" the gun.

Even if the gun was used SEVERAL YEARS later to commit the crime--after all, it would still go back to YOU not "securing" your gun.

THIS RULING IS A GUN-CONTROL RULING---DESIGNED TO MAKE GUN-OWNERS AFRAID TO OWN GUNS.

:applaud:
Support the Second. Or have nothing to support (and defend) yourselves with.
 

Griz3752

Retired, practising Curmudgeon
In the article I quoted, the prosecutor kept talking about "trigger locks".

Now you know and I know a gun kept in the home for self-defense, locked up in a safe or with trigger-locks, is useless in an emergency situation where you may need to get access to that gun quickly in regards to an intruder.

The prosecutor did not say the gun was purchased 'for' the boy (not contradicting you that the mother said that, just going by what the female prosecutor said) but just its presence in the home, "UNSECURED" (to use her words) made the parents guilty for what the son did with it.

From what I've read they were not good parents and it was a dysfunctional home, but the prosecutor kept zeroing in on two things:

Parents should have been mind-readers and able to predict the future (iow, they should have KNOWN their son wasn't experiencing normal teen mood-swings / depression but was severely mentally ill)--so since they didn't get him to a psychologist they're guilty)

Parents should make sure there is NO WAY a gun belonging to them can be used in commission of a crime--even if stolen / taken without their permission.

Again, Dennis--I'm not just talking about THIS case.

You know as well as me that "legal precedent" is what is used in ONE case to build support for a totally unrelated one.

Like the "privacy" clause in the Constitution was used to support abortion "rights"--something the Founding Fathers never dreamed of and most certainly would not have approved (they were for the right to life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness, per the Declaration; pity they didn't put those words in the Constitution as well).

I say again that this precedent will be used against ALL GUN OWNERS---ANY crime committed using a gun they owned (or, 'once' owned--how far in time are they responsible? Forever, I guess, if they "failed to secure" the weapon, so that it got into the 'wrong' hands!) will now make THEM liable.
I can tell you trigger locks are not the cure all to access the SJW Marxists claim them to be.
Look at one on & off a firearm. It will be immediately obvious that almost any one can remove such a lock w/o the key or combo.

The only reasonably effective lock I ever saw was when I bought a M19 PPC revolver from an RCMP Officer - he used handcuffs through the cylinder frame to secure a pair of revolvers together. He secured his duty 5906 and hideout piece in a similar fashion.

The issue here was the parents knew their son was in several prohibited-from-ownership categories but bought a pistol for him anyway and took no steps to deny him access to the handgun or ammo.
They also took no meaningful steps to get treatment for his mental issues or to respond to the several issues/incidents brought their attention by the school.

DO was on point about the sentence.
 
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Babs

Veteran Member
A parent left a pen on the dresser UNSECURED, and the child stabbed his friend in the neck with it, thus killing him. Should the parent be held responsible? You see where this goes?
 

GB Appling

Contributing Member
A parent left a pen on the dresser UNSECURED, and the child stabbed his friend in the neck with it, thus killing him. Should the parent be held responsible? You see where this goes?
Yep. This is the argument. A child kills someone with something so we are going to hold the parents responsible? I think the killer should be held accountable noone else.
 

Griz3752

Retired, practising Curmudgeon
A parent left a pen on the dresser UNSECURED, and the child stabbed his friend in the neck with it, thus killing him. Should the parent be held responsible? You see where this goes?
Yes but it's always situational.
I've never heard of anyone being prohibited from owning/using a pen (although the SJWs might like to prohibit folks like us from using anything related to communications).

Having said that, I'm certainly not the only person here who knows about improving weapons for offensive or defensive applications; I carry a hard body metal ballpoint and something that looks like a fountain pen in addition to a couple of stout pens.

One never knows what's around the corner.
 

Dennis Olson

Chief Curmudgeon
_______________
that's what the leftists will solely focus on - they want to crush self-defense and castle doctrine
Let me ‘splain it to you Lucy

This case had nothing to do with self defense or castle doctrine. Unless, that is, one lives in a school and needs to kill random students for self defense. You can flutter your hands as much as you want, but your premise is ridiculous.
 

Dennis Olson

Chief Curmudgeon
_______________
Most of you on this thread have twisted your so-called “logic” into a spaghetti-like mass. I can hear the REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!! from here. Engage brain, not feelz.
 

Toosh

Veteran Member
This is about making people AFRAID TO OWN GUNS because THEY could be held accountable for ANY crime ANYONE commits with them--even if they took the gun w/o permission / knowledge of the owner.

Unfortunately, I believe you are correct. When they make it about the gun, you know it's about gun control.

However, I do believe that parents of minor children should bear responsibility and have some accountability as an "accessory" for their kid's actions whether it be murder, theft, or graffiti. If the family dog had killed someone the parents would be responsible.
 

willowlady

Veteran Member
The son was with the father when the gun was purchased. He was asked if it was for him ( the father) he said it was.

Then gave it to his son as a gift, without any locks what so ever. That’s illegal. Kept it in his dresser drawer.

The father is going down too I suspect.
As well he should. Just plain stupid!
 

Babs

Veteran Member
Unfortunately, I believe you are correct. When they make it about the gun, you know it's about gun control.

However, I do believe that parents of minor children should bear responsibility and have some accountability as an "accessory" for their kid's actions whether it be murder, theft, or graffiti. If the family dog had killed someone the parents would be responsible.

That would be a lot easier if the gov't would let parents discipline their children, and not reinforce the kid's delusions. They can't have it both ways.
 

Hacker

Computer Hacking Pirate

Unpacking the Jennifer Crumbley Case and What It Means to You​

R/T: 11:10
Washington Gun Law President, William Kirk, discusses the Jennifer Crumbley matter in which a Michigan jury has found her guilty on four counts of Involuntary Manslaughter for the deaths of four students at Oxford High School in 2021. This case has grabbed national attention, but while many have focused on sensational drama that unfolded before, during and after this horrific incident, we decide to do something that few others have actually done and just look at some of the facts, and then compare that to the same jury instructions that the Jury here would have received. Learn what all of this means and arm yourself with education today.
 
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